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Cal_Mythic - Anti-cheat idea that would really help

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Lord Chaos, Jul 30, 2010.

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  1. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    So, people are saying that this will bring in new players...fair enough, lets go with that.

    Other people are saying that its unfair that previous cheated advantages (through everything ranging from search sites to scripting to duping), this is also fair enough and likely correct, so lets go with that too.

    So why not open up 3 new shards. 1 West Coast, 1 East Coast and 1 Europe. (and perhaps 1 asian)

    These shards would have heavy enforcement of your anti-cheat measures from the get go and everyone would start from scratch.

    This would give those who want a cheat free environment something to really work with, if thats what they *truly* want (if they aren't just being anti-cheaters because they themselves used the cheats already and got their skills).

    This would also attract new players in the form of a new shard, instead of everyone starting on an old shard with little room, people having cheated, 100s of millions, etc.

    Make the new shards only open to NEW accounts for the first 3-6 months.

    If both sides are correct, this should draw in a substantial crowd, while at the same time, not messing up existing shards, they could more or less be left alone in that regard.

    In regards to Siege and Mugen, you could just heavy enforce them from the get go, as they're "advanced" shards anyway.
     
  2. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    No. Shard population is already low. Moreover, folks have rares/wealth from years of playing that they don't want to part with. This idea just punishes folks who are anti-cheat.
     
  3. olduofan

    olduofan Guest

    or we could make just 1 shard for cheaters make them move and rebuild not the honest players. why penalize the non-cheaters ?

    un-real the logic roflmao
     
  4. Surgeries

    Surgeries Grand Poobah
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    LOL.

    So...LC...when are you starting your own Game company, so you can demonstrate, first hand, how amazing your theories and postulations are?

    I know there will be a lot of folks waiting for this.

    Or, you can continue to sit in your arm chair, come up with the most amazingly silly ideas ever, and call them brilliant.

    Either...I have to admit...your posts are amusing.

    In a very nauseating and pretty sickly way...but entertaining, nonetheless.

    :gee:
     
  5. Let's just assume for a moment that LC uses some cheat program to gather resources... of course we all *know* he doesn't. Opening up a new shard as he suggests would allow him to go on with his daily life scripting away in UO, while pretending that EA/Mythic is doing something about other people.

    No, this is a bad idea.
     
  6. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    I have noticed this as well. Of course, some people like to hear(see) themselves talk.
     
  7. Evlar

    Evlar Guest

    I agree with this, but they should be "classic" shards.

    I'll quite happily stake anything you like, there would be far less "cheating" than there is on the current shards.

    Let's take scripters for example...

    [​IMG]

    ...can't script when their character is getting killed by players can they?
     
  8. Beer_Cayse

    Beer_Cayse Guest

    Thankfully I put LC on ignore long ago. This idea must have been a real hoot.

    BTW - LC really has nothing worth lissening to ennyhoo and I am sure I am (or soon will be) on his ignore list.
     
  9. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
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    LC aren't you an admitted script user? My apologies if I'm wrong.
     
  10. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    No, I certainly am not. That is merely one of the smear campaigns people have been running for ages because they don't like what I say.

    I do however play with and associate with cheaters of various usage levels, much like many others do without knowing it. I am just very open about my stances, so people are more open and honest with me in game.
     
  11. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
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    My bad, I thought I remembered reading a reply from you where you said you used it frequently...hrm...maybe another poster with chaos in their name?
     
  12. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    I have no idea. Well, actually I can claim to "fame" that I've used the infamous search site a few times, so I am by that token a cheater.

    Some people consider the fact that I buy some things and money for real life money for cheating, even though its not against the rules.
     
  13. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    So, everyone that disagrees with your stellar idea is a cheater...
    You realise calling people cheaters is against the RoC, right?
     
  14. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    You seem surprised at that Kiminality... he's called quite a few people on here cheaters, including everyone who uses the Enhanced Client.
     
  15. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Gotta love infallible logic like that! Creates such wonderful comfort for the ego when the individual realizes their stellar idea isn't very well received, lol.
     
  16. It Lives

    It Lives Lore Master
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    what?

    Let's say for the sake argument that it's a good Idea, why would all the non-cheaters have to start over?

    You Sir can shove it where the sun don't shine.

    you fail.
     
  17. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    I was just in the rare mood to waste awake-time responding to him.
    Fortunately (or not) most of his posts are like reruns. If you miss replying to one, the same thing's going to come up again soon enough.

    I think the idea is terrible, and the presentation is worse.
    I am a member of a diverse and widespread community on my shard. No way at all that it would be possible to get everyone moved across to another shard, so the choice is between splitting the community or staying put.
    The same probably applies to a lot of people.
     
  18. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    ASSUMING for a moment that the Devs can SOMEHOW make UO cheat/hack/exploit-proof. No dupes, no loophole exploits, no speedhack, etc etc etc.

    Assuming for a moment that such a thing is even feasible (much less possible)...

    The ONLY method you could ever really run the game as such would be to start the WHOLE THING over... meaning 100% all shards wiped, rebooted and started from scratch.

    Only then could you really start from a clean playing field.

    However, such a thing is about as likely as getting UO to be cheat-proof to begin with.

    And while it makes for an interesting mental exercise of "Taking what you know about UO today, how would you revamp and restart it", the reality is that such ideas really aren't all that feasible.

    Best we can hope for is for the devs to get a system up and running to snag the actual offenders and move forward from there.
     
  19. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Unsure why you quoted me for this statement. But to clear up possible confusion I do agree. Was just a sarcastic response regarding the safety net approach by LC in calling all those who disagree with him cheaters, :p
     
  20. Tazar

    Tazar Guest

    I believe one of the biggest concerns players have is that EA can not afford to ban all the cheaters due to the loss of income.

    I said this several years ago as well.

    I'd recommend not loosing the income and instead changing the meaning of "banished".

    Create a new shard - maybe called "The Banished Lands" - probably with a Siege style ruleset. If caught cheating with something serious enough - and after warnings have been ignored (or whatever system that would normally lead up to a ban), then it is a forced irreversible shard x-fer to The Banished Lands for the top 6 or 7 used characters across all shards - access to other shards is blocked either for a set term, or permanently. Armor, bank, backpacks transfer - but not houses or the items there (maybe a special exception for soulstones just because I am addicted to them).

    The Banished Lands would contain all the scum - free to use all the cheats they want to - so everyone there would be on an even playing field. And as the cheaters are slowly banished and leave the other lands, they too should balance out better.

    There may even be a few die-hard players that will want to transfer over just for the challenge.

    Just trying to think out of the box...

    any other ideas?
     
  21. HD2300

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    Duke Nukem Forever!!!
    [​IMG]
     
  22. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Wake me up if they ever finish that damn game, lol.
     
  23. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    I was going to make a witty comment in response, but then I got distracted, and infected with the serious.
    Consider it a failure in proof reading :D
     
  24. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    - Aye, I could buy into something like that.
    Maybe do that and allow their friends and anyone else to join them with a free one-way transfer in; maybe even with whatever stuff they want.
    Then that shard could try a huge recruiting process to try to prove that cheating in games is better than playing by the rules (even though it wouldn't prove that at all, due to cheating being known to happen on such a shard, therefore making it a fair shard as long as it is unmoderated ~ essentially without rules).
    New banished lands and heavily anti-cheat monitored existing shards would make me happy.

    Although I do not think it would be fair at all to create new shards that are heavily anti-cheat and then ask old established veterans to move if they want a more proper rule abiding UO.. I would seriously consider doing that even if the subscription cost a little more in order to play on such a shard that is better equipped to enforce the rules they created and made us agree to.

    I do have my concerns that something like 'banished lands' would retain too many cheaters or cheater's friends that would otherwise quit if they were banned for cheating on their current shard. Because I think a lot of it is simply the enjoyment and/or sense of superiority they get out of having certain advantages over the rule abiding members of their shard / of UO.


    ***

    Addressing the cheating in UO will be a tricky thing to do (as has been the case for many years).
    But the subscription rate should be pretty well established while there is this amount of cheating in the game, whereas the subscription rate has not been very well established when the level of cheating has been forcedly kept to a minimum..
    They can either coast with these subs and hope they develop some great stuff to interest more people to come play or they can consider better enforcement of their rules in hopes that it might entice people to play UO that have otherwise avoided it, or left it, in large part because they do not want to feel like they have to cheat in order to be competitive in whatever part of UO they might be inclined to enjoy. I'd love to see both great development and decent rule enforcement; for some reason I can't help thinking that UO will increase in subscriptions as long as it becomes a better game...

    I firmly believe UO lost a lot of opportunities for netting more players due to the unmoderated cheating that has essentially been allowed to happen by those that deemed it cheating.. the majority of the people I would talk to in real life would agree that there is no use in playing a game if you are playing it with a bunch of people willing to cheat (~ willing to break the rules agreed upon that structure the nature of the game itself).
    I also find it quite sad that losing people who cheat in UO has to even be considered, when trying to properly enforce (or change) the rules of the game; but I guess that is a result of UO being where it is.. where it is in large part because the rules were not adequately enforced (or changed) and as a result it tempted more and more to cheat because they felt they needed to because of so many possible variables (competitiveness in PvP and UO's runaway economy combined with the ol' grass is greener adage, for starters)... but that is where this ship has been blown; so fix the course or keep coasting?
     
  25. HD2300

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    "This might be the only game in history worth waiting 12 years for, perhaps longer.... It was good." :)
     
  26. Doubt this idea would ever work, no-ones going to give 10+ years of wares n rares up to move to 3 new shards just because of cheaters.

    :stretcher: < LC

    :)
     
  27. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    oki, seriously. An idea to stop some of the cheating without actually banning the cheats.
    Something I briefly mentioned earlier. Confiscate/remove the illgotten gains.
    Char A spends 10 hours AFK script mining - only to have all the ingots mined disappear.
    Char B spends 10 hours AFK skill training - ony to have all gains re-set to the start of script-detection.
    If they gained nothing from the cheating, they'd either stop doing it and play legitimately or quit.
    I'm not sure how the pvp scripts could be countered, I don't have the technical knowledge to know what's possible from server end and what's not.
    We need some kind of 'lock' on some of the client files to prevent them from being modified I think?
     
  28. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Here's what I think...

    Statloss and skill loss on one character may not be much of a penalty as stat/skill gains aren't exactly hard to come by any more.

    How about stat/skill loss penalty for every character the cheater owns when caught along with the ill-gotten gains achieved by the cheating?
     
  29. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    Ah but, would stat and skill gains be 'not exactly hard to come by' if all those gained through scripting were re-set - every time they were scripted?

    The idea, in my mind at least, is not so much to punish scripting, but to make it pointless to do. What's the point in leaving your character scripting skill gain all day if you don't actually gain any skill? What's the point in leaving your character scripting mining/potion mixing/etc all day if there are no ingots or potions when you return?
     
  30. That depends on how foolproof the method to catch people cheating. If it only catches 1 in 10, then yeah the cheats are going to take the risk. If it catches 100% of the people using scripts and hacks then they will most likely give up on them.
     
  31. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    - Always agreed with a solution like this, too...
    Of course my version would be a little bit stricter (more like punishment without exile); more like all ore/ingots in bank, house, backpacks, realated commodity deeds would be deleted on cheater account(s) & all skills wiped on character caught cheating skill gain (maybe even delete one primary skill on all characters on that account). Delete all BoDs and rewards for scripting that system. Delete at least the main suits (armor, weapons, tames) on characters that are found cheating in PvP. Delete as much as possible related to the specific area one is caught cheating, sometimes on all accounts tied together.. etc.
    Bottom line is to seriously try to make the penalty for cheating worse than the potential reward.
    But I have yet to hear any wind of a tool like that having been developed to help enforce the rules; and I'm sure many of us agree that the suggestion has been.. suggested quite a few times in the past decade.
     
  32. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    An interesting and creative idea. You know, they always say the worst thing about prison is your fellow inmates... :)
     
  33. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Well that's an interesting idea as well, but the problem is it sets up a scenario where the whole game is to beat the anti-cheat system, and beat it they will because they will have an infinite number of shots at it, and there are no real consequences for cheating.

    I would have no problem with a "three strikes you're out" system where the first three times you get caught, this happens, along with a warning about the eventual consequences. But at some point I want the worst cheaters gone from my shard forever.

    I don't want them given an infinite number of shots at beating the system, because they will eventually do it, you can take to the bank.
     
  34. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I didn't think of that :( My brain doesn't work the way their's does.

    I don't think many people's brains work the way mine does tbh, I'm a dinosaur. I was brought up to view cheating with contempt, an admission of failure, of being inadequate to the task of playing effectively within the rules.

    Realistically I accept that no matter how hard they try cheating will never be eliminated. Every game on line has some form of cheating in it. We can only hope to get it reduced to a more acceptable level.

    I guess to a degree it's the result of console games where 'cheat codes' were deliberately put in by the developers. Thus making a despised activity the acceptable norm.

    What I don't want is to lose the game I love because the number of players falls to a level where it is no longer viable. Faced with a choice, I'd rather have UO with cheaters than no UO at all! It's the lesser of two evils.
     
  35. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    And I think that's a scare tactic that the cheaters and their allies are using. I don't think UO is going to disappear because the cheating monster is subdued. Cheaters and cheating drive players away. I think subduing the cheating monster, along with the Enhanced Client, all the really great content we are getting, and the promised advertising, is going to bring players back, far more than will ever be lost due to subduing the cheating monster.

    The cheaters and their allies won the battle over Punk Buster a few years ago, my guess in part because the devs accepted this lie. It would be an even worse travesty if these devs also fell prey to it. Having said that, there are a lot of people using illegal third party apps, probably the vast majority of subscribers, and the devs have to be careful how they handle this.

    But something tells me they have seen the numbers, and they are well aware of the scope of the problem, and I at this point I trust them to handle the situation with wisdom. But they are going to have to have back bones and nerves of steal if they are going to win this battle. So far, so good. The next few months are going to be absolutely critical, and I do think the future of our UO gaming universe is at stake.
     
  36. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    The Cheaters also tend to support their huge cheater percentage by claiming anything and everything vaguely possible as being cheating.

    I imagine my illuminated keyboard that helps me read the keyboard would be called a cheat, the naga mouse with it's extra buttons would be clearly considered a cheat, the fact I have maps & info displaysfor the game easily available via the taskbar quicklaunch is an unfair cheat, etc, etc.

    Let's see. One actually claimed to be a cheat, which may be, would be that vendor search site. If that is the case, I'm guilty. Browsing 500 vendors in luna everytime I want something is to long & boring a project to even consider. Wandering three entire landmasses looking for vendors that might actually have what I want would be even worse. The games fun-factor would definitly drop a long ways.
     
  37. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I'm afraid that site does use illicit means to gather it's data, which is why it's not mentioned on here.
    I intend that this fansite will support the devs in this, as always, in any shape, way or form that it can.
     
  38. MiNi MaGi

    MiNi MaGi Sage
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    wow yall r still on this cheating subject.. like ive said before lol for YEARS ive heard of uo putting out *punk buster* like programs and never do. also by the time they even make something like this live, uo will prob be shut down or close to it. so how about we try and discuss useful topics? things that might actually bring in new players and/or old players..
     
  39. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    Always stand up for what you believe in, Lass. :)

    If EA spanks anyone who uses that convienence though, they will wind up punishing a major chuck of thier playerbase. :gee:
     
  40. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I'd say it's highly unlikely that anyone will get into trouble for visiting that website, since that doesn't involve interacting with the client. But the website may close down.
     
  41. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    Not much point to such discussions since EA won't advertise. Any neat changes to make the game more atttractive to people looking for a good game to play, will never be heard of by anyone but the current players and thier friends.

    You can lead a dragon to a village, you can't make him eat. :pancakes:
     
  42. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    If it does close down, would Stratics consider setting up a forum with product catagories for Merchants to advertise in? Something like Armor, weapon types, Tmaps & SOS's, Artifacts, Rares, and such. A forum where the advertisement posts would time out after say, a week, and go away. Some things just don't sell due to what it is, or the price, and would just be a pile of clutter in the forum after a while without a timeout feature.
     
  43. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    It's already "live". All that's left to do is act on the data they have and continue to collect, and I'm thinking the first stages of that action are coming very soon...
     
  44. HD2300

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    What is "soon"? In another 6 months time... because the big Mythic Excel file is really really big right?

    Some things just arent passing the smell test anymore, like how can you detect what 3rd party program is running just by server side checks? All this anti-speedhack and anti-3rd party program detection was announced 12 Feb, almost 6 months ago. It has been all talk and no action.
     
  45. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    what does the metrix.txt file collect from your machine?
     
  46. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    Been playing UO for 13 years, and i've seen EA talk about "Anti-Cheat Measures" more times than you can count, and not only are the damn cheaters still around, they're thriving. So i doubt this time is going to be any different.
    You're all talking like EA finally putting in an anti-cheat system will be the end-all of cheating, well it won't. All that's gonna happen is that the developers of the cheat programs will update them to bypass the detection system, which will cause EA to update their detection system, causing the cheaters to update their program again, etc etc. Basically a never ending update war between the devs and the cheat programmers. I'd absolutely love to see a cheat free UO, but i know that's not gonna happen because EA lacks the back-bone, and it's simply not 100% possible.
    For example, Darkfall has an anti-cheat system in it, and there's still cheaters in it. Aventurine updates their detection system, the cheaters disappear for a few days to a week, until the cheat programmers update, then the cheaters are back until Aventurine updates again. Repeat process. Difference is though, at least Aventurine gives a damn about their game and has active, online GMs that investigate people if enough cheating claims are made, and perma ban them if warranted. Fraps a video of a speedhacker and send it to Aventurine, and they will almost immediately perma ban that person.
     
  47. HD2300

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    What is it supposed to collect, and does it also collect the same thing in the CC?
     
  48. Surgeries

    Surgeries Grand Poobah
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    I agree with the sentiment that the fear being spread by the folks who fear anti-cheat measures is insidious enough that it could be easily believed, as well as the sentiments of AesSedai about what to do with cheaters, once found. :thumbup1:

    It is the "Fog of War" (i.e. lack of actual numbers for us to view) in my opinion that keeps the ridiculous notion alive that without cheaters, UO would go under. I mean seriously...how many of the folks reading this would knowingly sit in a card game, or any face to face game where known cheaters were playing with you? Seriously? Even if we REALLY love the game we are playing?

    I would rather not play a game, than to have to cheat to compete. But I do want to keep playing UO, and am hopeful we will get some traction on the slippery slope of Get Rid of The Cheats. I am hoping the detection software is highly effective.

    *Crosses Fingers*
     
  49. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    No, but it certainly does show some very interesting tendencies going in that direction.

    If people truly want things cheat free, they'd want to get rid of cheated items, houses, etc. too, so its mighty odd when they don't want that and have a chance at a new economy where things are worked up the right and hard way.

    Maybe they're afraid of hard work, but oh wait...hmmmm
     
  50. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    Its more that people can't get in trouble for doing so, as there's no way to detect it. The devs have in the past clearly stated that its against the rules and as such its also clearly against the TOS/EULA to use such.

    Its just completely unenforceable, though its funny how some anti-cheaters defend it.
     
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