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Can we continue the discussion

Discussion in 'UHall' started by nateee, Jan 27, 2009.

  1. nateee

    nateee Adventurer
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    Can we continue the discussion about warrior specials, using stam instead of mana, in a civil manner so this thread dosen't get locked as well.

    Other than changing the way refresh pots, devine fury, and fel push through work, what else would need to be changed?
     
  2. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Yes, it can be discussed. That is alot of code though... Tying it to mana was discussed ages ago. Stamina can be re uped at an instance. If you allow that it will create killer dexxers.

    Nerfing stam will make you die a lot.
     
  3. Why not use both stamina and mana?

    And to me it would make sense "in a real life sense" that if you use a special move that you get tired and slow down, maybe need a rest before using it again.
     
  4. nateee

    nateee Adventurer
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    that's why in the earlier post I, as well as others, mentioned making total refresh pots just bump up your stam regeneration. Or you could remove refresh post all together and tweek devine fury as well.
     
  5. Saunders

    Saunders Lore Keeper
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    In a like sense, I have long wondered why mage casting speed was not linked to stamina. Surely a mage needs stamina for all that handwaving, and at present they only need two stas.
     
  6. Crysta

    Crysta Babbling Loonie
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    Would need to make normal food useless again. Right now it restores stamina.
     
  7. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    I think there are pros and cons to the idea

    Pros

    Would require certain classes to actually have a decent amount of stamina to do special moves.

    People might actually be inclined to have the Focus skill (Seriously, does anyone actually use this skill???)

    From a RP stand point it makes sense that someone doing a special move would suffer from a temporary reduction in their ability to swing at full speed.


    Cons

    Refresh pots, Divine Fury and some of the forms would need to be changed in order to avoid people chaining special moves with no lose in stamina.

    With warriors no longer needing mana,unless they use a lot of chiv, bushido, ninja special moves. Would most warriors simply dump everything into Str and Dex?

    It would only be a matter of time before we have yet another Mod added to the mix. LSC = Lower Stamina Cost.



    I’m sure there’s more…
     
  8. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    What is the real issue here? Maxing stats?
     
  9. nateee

    nateee Adventurer
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    Those are good points. But the pots, DF and forms could all be looked at in the upcoming balance passes.

    warriors not needing any mana may be ok and make a pure warrior temp viable again. But, I would bet most would still choose to use some of those skill because they are very useful.

    Hopefuly they would not add LSC. It would be easier to adjust stam cost on the front end. They could still make it where I requires twice as much stam if you try to chain specials.
     
  10. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    Additional problem: if mana is not the limiting resource for warriors it greatly increases the capabilities of someone with both spells and specials - it would be almost like giving them double mana.

    I used to think it made more sense on a pure RP level to trade swing sweed for a special move, but there are simply so many ways to get stamina back and this point there seems to be just too much weight of code ... I've come around to thinking that there needs to be a single limiting resource of all "magical effects", including weapon-specials.

    However, since mana is the limiting resource for everyone, I would drop the meditation-block effect from armor (and the mage armour property). If you wanted to keep difference "weights" of armours different, I would add a small DCI vs damage reduction (or damage cap) tradeoff.
     
  11. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    "dumb as a box of rocks fighters" I remember those from pencil and paper days...
     
  12. nateee

    nateee Adventurer
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    I don't think maxing stats is the issue here. It just seems that this would be a better system. The big thing that opponets of the system keep refering too is refresh pots and DF, which is a valid point if it was kept the same as it is now. But, I haven't heard one person mention keeping Refresh pots and DF the same and switching to this system.
     
  13. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    hehe....yep

    I can think of one of my chars that if this change were to happen I would drop my int down to 10 and would have 150 Str, 150 Dex and by the time you add in items I would be somewhere near 200 hp and 200 stamina.

    (I would obviously trade out all my current MR/LMC items for Stamina Regen/Increase along with Hit point Regen/Increase)
     
  14. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    We all dream of the better system. But a dumb fighter should be... dumb.
     
  15. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    dumb fighters shouldn't be using tricky finessful moves :)
     
  16. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    Even if this was a possibility...the imbalances created by such a thing are huge. In order to tie melee to stam for special moves costs...you would have to rework potions completely. In addition, for balance...a mana potion with a very limited cooldown would need to be added. All specials would have to be reworked, as would the coding behind each weapon and combat skill.

    Once all this is done, THEN you can begin with a complete skill nerf...for balancing purposes. By the time this is complete SA should have had a shelf presence for a good...5 years? This whole system would need to shift UO back to around what...pub 22 or so? Hell, why not just go pre pub 16?

    Good job mr. mod, way to allow pointless locked threads to be reopened.
     
  17. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Hey, the forum still wanted to discuss it. I did this several years ago. Who am I to squelch civil discussion?
     
  18. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    As a melee player, I think warriors needing mana is fine. The problem is that Mages should need Dex in some way as well.

    *ducks behind shield*
     
  19. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    That is a fine point Sir. I remember the days when one could get away with 10 as a stat. Those days are well over.
     
  20. nateee

    nateee Adventurer
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  21. nateee

    nateee Adventurer
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    That may be an entirly better way to go and easier to accomplish as well. How about for every point of FCR you need 10 stam, and as your stam gets lower so does your FCR. What say the mob.
     
  22. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    I remember the days when one could get away with 10 as a stat.

    I doubt Str was the stat :p
     
  23. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    In UO: Mana is just an equilibrium of WoW's Energy/Rage/Mana
    If that makes you happy you can change your "Mana" wording to Energy/Rage if you like. You know by default it says Mana and is blue bar. If you toggle it to Rage it will show up red and Energy for Yellow....

    Jeez.

    OK anyways, yes Viper back in the days Arms Lore used stam to disarm but the disarm also isnt a toggle. Would you like your dexer have random proc on one of the two specials on hit that takes away some stam? It sure solves special spamming issue. But you wont like it now do you?

    Or simply bring back 2handed weapon class random proc that cost nothing at all? You dont even need mana nor stam to do specials. If you are lucky you have a chance to indifintely chain them. You know Fencing for para blow, macing for crushing and sword for concussion... Is this a way of doing it? We had it in game you know, not like its a completely screwed up idea.

    Only way this would happen is if specials has a timer (btw without 6 fcr there IS a 1.5 second wait time in between spells), which dexers spamming specials to kill will cry nerf. OR stam regen is lowered to mana regen rate then remove red pots and nerf divine fury.

    And if these "make sense" yet "stupid" change goes thru, everyone will get cockblocked by anything that walks in game (unless you stay in tram forever because no red pot/divine fury spamming) with zero way of getting away unless you cast teleport.

    It's a crapload of coding to make something make "sense". Yeaa you know flames coming from undernethe my feet, and getting struck by lighting 100+ times a day also makes complete sense.

    This coding along can solve a lot of different things that really makes PvP ******** (assuming this has something to do with PvP)... you know like getting hit by instant double Flame Strike + 80dmg firebreathe.
     
  24. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    I've always thought it was odd that stamnia didn't affect spellcasting speed when it affects swing speed :)

    (there was an old Steve Jackson boardgame called "Wizard" that I really liked back in the dawn-of-RPG days that always reminds me of UO mages for some reason ... it required a DEX-check to cast spells)
     
  25. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    It never was...
     
  26. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    It's been discussed before... the popularity of such a thing was... well... not very high.
     
  27. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    I can imagine ... it would likely be a nightmare to reopen the FC/FCR balance.
     
  28. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    *looks at the barrage of past locked threads and ponders*
    *looks at the rules said mod so kindly refers to and ponders the above pondering*

    :gee:
     
  29. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Yes Sir. This has been discussed before. I agree with your conclusion. I am just a player though. I wish everyone has fun playing. UO has room for all. Tremendous game. *nods*
     
  30. Saunders

    Saunders Lore Keeper
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    Agree entirely: see post above. All that handwaving and gesturing surely needs dex and stam to perform. It's totally logical that casting speed is linked to dex.
     
  31. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
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    Why is this guy still allowed to post here? Good God ....
     
  32. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    I agree. at the current mage status. At 10 stam mage casts at 2/6 and scales up from there. At 100stam mage should be at 4/6 and capped at 5/6 at 150 stam.

    I mean seriously, with apples, faction aids, 4/6 heal and remove curse. If you still die to any mage other than a tamer version on dreads, you should probably go back and take dexer 101.

    I mean why stop there. Dexers should stand still to swing w/ fast weapon dmg capped at 8 to 15 comparable to magic arrow and fire ball and then bigger weapon you have to stand still and finish the whole swing animation in order to hit and if I weaken you you resets swing animation. If a dexer started swing animation I can just walk away before it finishes. If I stayed in range is always hit... just like how dexers can easily offscreen against all bigger spells thesedays.
     
  33. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    My view is, if mages don't rely on dex, then warriors' special moves should not need mana.

    But as most of the posters said the problem is total refresh/divine fury will let warriors chain special.

    As I see it, there are only 2 ways to solve that,

    1) remove them, or
    2) add the equivalents for mana - craftable mana potions/spell that restores full mana

    Neither doesn't look likely to happen anytime soon though
     
  34. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    I agree with the concept of special moves requiring stam mainly from an RP point of view. It just makes sense that specials such as whirlwind attack and crushing blow use stam instead of mana.


    But again we would need to fix refresh potions and divine fury.

    If there was a change to those items, then focus would have more purpose.

    But really, a timer for specials would be a good ;)
     
  35. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Disarm was actually toggle back then. At least when I started using it before tram came around. You needed to create a macro for it though since there was no other way to toggle it that I was aware of. When you toggled it, you would get the message, "You prepare to disarm your target." Or something along that line.

    The other special moves, however, were random when they were introduced.
     
  36. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    You need wrestling to disarm. If you remember there was an issue with wrestling. Even if you successfully wresl hit your opponent due to a really low wreslting base dmg a success punch will deal 0 to 1 dmg. If its a roll of hit w/ 0 dmg it doesn't disarm. You have to at least deal 1pt of dmg to disarm. To me it feels like a 25% chance (50% to hit, 50% for hit to deal 1 dmg) which is why disarm thieves were very powerful but not completely overpowered.
     
  37. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    ummm...for the same reasons you are? :eek:
     
  38. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    You do it daily...why stop now?...la
     
  39. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Eh, I don't like the idea solely from the fact that it'd mess a *LOT* of stuff up, but there's no discernible benefit.
    Please note im speaking from a PVM perspective only

    Comments in no particular order:

    1. This would screw up everyone's suits. (and weapons [stam leech])
    2. Would bushido, ninjitsu, and chiv also be stam based?
    3. would stamina damage (from being hit) be reduced? currently 1 hit from a heavy hitting monster reduces stam by about half or more, seems to be this would be a huge nerf to PvMers. (and honestly i'm tired of getting nerfed all the time)
    4. Would further nerf the currently (almost) useless slower/heavier weapons

    ill think of more later im sure

    Biggest question: Why do we want this?
     
  40. Nestorius

    Nestorius Guest

    I like this idea. The mana system discourages pure warriors and encourages magic users to take up weapons.
     
  41. drawn

    drawn Journeyman
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    I can go for this, HOWEVER, I would suggest trying swing speed to dexterity. That being said, the SSI formula would have to be adjusted as well because now we are capped at 150 dex whereas stamina can go over 180. Possibly raise the dex cap back the way it was prior to whatever pub it was that capped dex to 150?

    People do not understand mages can always cast at 2/6 (minus protection) at all points in time regardless of being hit. Dexxers lose stamina the moment they get hit by a wep or a spell which gives them a negative impact to swing speed.

    While a great raw idea, it needs to be tweaked in my opinion alot before even being proposed.
     
  42. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    See though, I like the idea that if a dexxer starts spamming specials, they would have a slow down in the speed of their swing. Maybe slow the amount of swing speed slowing with a different formula than what is used now...la
     
  43. RichDC

    RichDC Guest

    Mages cannot ALWAYS cast at 2/6...not nearly always!!!

    Mages get disruptions when casting, what affects a dexxers swing speed??
    if you hit a dexer inbetween swings does it knock you back and stop your sming???
    no you can swing through, spamming specials all the while, as it is...to alow the movement of all stats into 2 is imo a bad idea, in theory a mage can roll with 10dex atm, but thats(as i found out) a seriously bad move!!
    one hit from a heavy hit weap or spell or pain strike and your walking, if your then hit by a strangle...Say goodnight vienna(actually doesnt matter if your hit with strangle jus say goodnight vienna when you cant move)!!!

    I honestly do not see a problem with the way things are, specials require focus of the mind as much as focus of the body and as stamina is so important in many other ways (HCI DCI SS ability to run) and mana apart from specials is useless i dont see any decent argument for changing it.
     
  44. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    What does Stamina have to do with HCI or DCI?
     
  45. RichDC

    RichDC Guest

    Im have no idea on the formula but higher stats increase your chances to parry and hit, thats almost a definate.
     
  46. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    Parry is based on Dex, not Stamina....and as long as you have 80 dex you'll parry at 100% efficiency.

    None of the stats affect your hit chance.
     
  47. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    An assassin poisoning someone or cutting them open after coming out of the sahdows does't really slow down... they can't... or they die =)

    Other than from a logical stand point, why else do people want this changed? Is it really effecting people that much?
     
  48. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    What about the paladin in PVM? Will shifting things like cleanse by fire, close wound, holy light, and sacred journey overload the need for dex and mana. As it is now it is hard to balance things. Why add more to be balanced?

    We don't even know the real needs for UO/SA. How will this effect the new race. I think there is a need to not only look at the past, but the future.

    Let them fix balance we have now first. Then think of what the new specials will need. As it is we can use both Mana and dex. Let a mage drop the dex and you may have lost all chance of recovering. A low dex dropped to 20 as it is means trouble. Not everyone can afford a max stats scroll. What will the cost be after the change. What will curse stun do?

    Right now if mana is removed we still have the advantage of speed. What will happen to the people starting out with only say 50 dex. and low str. As it is they are almost a one ,or two hit cast. Then again your right we need to take all hope away from the new player of getting things in PVP and PVM.

    This move will not only effect the things we had, but the future too. This change offers a lot of pitfalls and traps. Would it help or hurt the all mighty mage.

    People can be very creative. If you think not look at the things like pet balls, ninja archers, just to name 2 that needed to be changed.

    I think we are just inviting more trouble than the changes that AoS started. What will happen to the chars that use skills like the Samuri, or Necro skills.

    Are we thinking this thing through of will we be depending on the dev to make it all work out in the long run.
     
  49. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    So you can rob us?!? NERF THIEVES :p
     
  50. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    I play both a sammy dexxer and a mage. I have to agree that even if a mage gets the 2/6, it's still nowhere near a dexxer's speed.

    Casting speed for different mage spells is like the swing speed for different weapons. Weak spells like magic arrow casts faster than stronger spells like flame strike. Similar to repeating xbows firing faster than heavy xbows.

    Main difference is, while the dexxer can increase his swing speed by raising dex, the mage do not have this option. The casting speed of a mage is always like a warrior with dex 10. Awfully slow...loosing stamina doesn't slow down the mage because higher stamina doesn't speed him up...

    The only speed increase mages get for casting is from the FC and FCR properties. And he is screwed there too, warriors needs only one property - SSI, but mages needs 2. Discounting artifacts, a single 35 SSI property on a weapon beats 2/6 casting flat. And to get 2/6 casting, it takes a minimum of 4 properties on 2 pieces of jewelry - 2 x FC 1 and 2 x FCR 3.

    Taking that into consideration, to make them comparable and add some life to both professions, the following can be done:

    1) Change warrior specials use stamina rather than mana
    2) Add in player craftable mana potions
    3) Tie mages' (includes all other casting, necro, chiv, spellweavers, bushido, ninjitsu) swing speed to mana, just like stamina

    Should level the playing field a little I hope.