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Cant have the cake but still want the cherry

Discussion in 'UHall' started by sligachan, Apr 24, 2011.

  1. sligachan

    sligachan Journeyman
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    First post in Uhall but played the game since 2000. I know that the whole classic shard things has been shelved which, for me, was disappointing. The reason being that I miss the uncertainty, the surprise element (good or bad), the not knowing what might happen before I log on.

    The game has moved on and new challenges continue to be added, but, it is not long before the challenge has been broken down, analyzed and a walk though published. At the end of the day, you know that a computer code is behind your game play and rationality takes over. This got me thinking.... how can we have the unpredictability back?

    To keep this short, my idea would be to have a classic 'shard' but only within a select few dungeons in Tram and Fell (granted there would need to be a good reason to go to these dungeons). Would this not bring back the risk v reward and excitement? I am thinking as a minimum that insurance would not be valid upon walking into these dungeons (and a warning put in place before entry so that no one mistakenly goes in).

    With regard to thieves I feel that they should operate in these dungeons but they should be open to attack if caught......

    What would people accept in the way of increased risk?

    Only idea's people please shoot me down at will or improve this concept.
     
  2. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    I believe this was the original purpose of Khaldun... which is probably one of the most forgotten UO dungeons in the game.
     
  3. sligachan

    sligachan Journeyman
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    I didn't know that. Why did Khaldun not work?
     
  4. canary

    canary Guest

    Because no one went there.
     
  5. sligachan

    sligachan Journeyman
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    Its seems like not a lot of people go to the old dungeons, which is a shame (pardon the pun). Would a radical change of rules in at least some of them not encourage at least some more people to go?
     
  6. canary

    canary Guest

    Personally I think all the dungeons need an overhaul on content and rewards. Heck, Doom could even stand to have the current artifacts stop spawning and new ones spawn in their place.
     
  7. sligachan

    sligachan Journeyman
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    Agreed, but the same old cycle will only begin again. People work out rewards and cherry pick armor and weapons and set off to bash the monster, rinse and repeat. Do we need this ad infinitum?

    How about a new set of armour that can only be worn in the new revamped dungeons that can only be made by craftsmen and repaired by them? This would be needed if they removed insurance.....
     
  8. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    There is not likely to be any kind of custom rules shard. No matter how many variations its supporters come up with.

    This is UO, so anything could happen. Someone could take over tomorrow and sweet talk EA into making one.

    It will, however, fail if they did, and they know it'll fail, and hence it'll be unlikely.

    How do we know it will fail? Because when they made Trammel, most people walked to it and didn't walk back to Fel. A long line of incentives to get people to go there (Khaldun; power scrolls; double resources; Faction artifacts) only worked to a limited extent.

    People walked away from Felucca once they had the option.

    At the end of the day, all custom shard arguments or suggestions are about returning the days when they could take choices away from other players. And most players don't want it.

    If people wanted the old days they never would have left Felucca, and Siege and Mugen would be a hotbed of activity instead of, according to a post by Draconi, being by far the two lowest population servers.

    -Galen's player
     
  9. sligachan

    sligachan Journeyman
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    I see, so by your logic... they introduced Tram and everyone walked to tram and never returned to fel and that is they end of the story for ever and a day. Nothing will ever change again. People have voted and will never change their minds?

    That in my opinion is too fixed a position. Things always change with time. I agree at present most people prefer certainty and are risk averse.

    That is why I am thinking you do not change the whole shard you change only a small part of it i.e a dungeon. Not like you changing everything on mass.

    Ideas:
    No insurance in the dungeon - re introduce risk and (for me but not for others bring back some fun)

    Make it so you have to wear dungeon Armour (made only by crafters - no repair deeds - this Armour will be needed because you cannot wear your expensive suits)

    Make shop areas outside of dungeon for player interaction and repairs.

    Make it so thieves can operate - I would then make it that thieves can be detected and tracked and freely killed within the tram context. Surely this would be fun for thieves and detectives.

    The above are just ideas - they may or may not work - just off the top of my head. The thing is the possibilities and variations could be worked out later. I am just looking for a place to play in the game where there is some risk and unpredictability.

    Even if you are dead set against change (which is what you have a present) surely you would not have an issue about such a small change as this? After all, you have the cake I just want the cherry.
     
  10. Haruchai

    Haruchai Seasoned Veteran
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    The problem with your argument is that people vote every time they log in. Nothing stops them going to Felucca if they want that rule set. They don't.

    Thing is, with UO you don't need to have the rules changed. You can do it yourself - and even better, if in agreement with others. For example:

    Nobody forces you to have insurance. Uninsure your items if you want the risk.

    Again, you can do this yourself. Many role-playing guilds wear GM armour. I have long disliked the itemisation of the game, having neither the time nor the temperament to hunt for artifacts etc, nor to use Excel to calculate what bit best goes with which. So I choose not to, and enter dungeons kitted out in pre-AoS armour. It's great, and dangerous, and with friends, entirely wild. It also means I don't prevent people who do like items from their game-play choices. It's my choice, and UO is great at providing choices.

    Plenty of these exist through players locating their houses near many dungeons. The lack now seen is a function of population, which is not solved by special areas.

    This and other negative interactions can be accomplished by guilds agreeing alliances and wars. This ensures everyone who risks being stolen from or attacked has agreed. Non-consensual thievery etc is a function of Felucca, which is deserted (see above). Again, your suggestion might be fun for thieves and detectives, but probably not for the poor sap who had a valuable item stolen.

    As always with these conversations, you seek to impose a playstyle that few people appear to want - when the mechanics already exist in the game to enjoy what you like without upsetting others. In UO's sandbox, there is cake and cherries and ice cream for everyone if they want. You just can't have other people's cake without asking. :)
     
  11. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    They have been given repeated chances, and incentives, to change their minds.

    They haven't.

    Repeated attempts to lure them into non-consensual playstyles they do not wish to participate in have failed.

    The market has spoken. I've never been one to favor the results of free markets just because it's the market's result, but in this case it's pretty undeniable.

    Yes! They do! For example, once upon a time the game was PK and Thief Land and now for years it hasn't been, and you all have never gotten over it and, likely, never will.

    Are you really sure you want to go down the road of attributing entire character traits to people you do not know on the basis of what playstyle they prefer? I could do that too, but I try and avoid it.

    That's weak.

    Your original post read in part:

    Either way you are clearly asking for a new shard.

    A custom rules shard is quite likely not gonna happen. This is UO and UO is under EA so anything's possible. Tomorrow, UO could die or get a $10 million infusion of cash to make the Enhanced Client as modern and usable in actuality as it appears at first glance.

    At the end of the day, and your posts aren't subtle about this, custom rules shard are about what UO was in the old days for real, as opposed to what rose colored memories have made it. Rampant PKing and thievery with victims who are mocked on message boards both at the time and years, years later. Oh, and when you don't like it, you're labeled "risk averse" and other negative character traits.

    People don't want that.

    I spend 15%-20% of my time in Felucca (more when Factions is active), the rest in Trammel. Had two PvP fights yesterday, one against 3 people (I proved difficult to kill and used dungeon level jumping to my advantage, they withdrew to engage their rival guild and, frankly, I was fine with that), then later against 4 people (I lost).

    Am I risk averse to you?

    Probably. Having you ascribe that label to me, on this basis, I'm fine with.

    -Galen's player
     
  12. sligachan

    sligachan Journeyman
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    Ok good points.

    Not into labeling and I hope I have not offended you.

    Looks like I need to ditch my artifacts and imbued armour and remove insurance. I will give this a go and see if this helps me find what I am looking for.

    There will be very few people in any of these dungeons taking this route, which I guess, proves your point.
     
  13. VinnySP

    VinnySP Seasoned Veteran
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    Come play Siege with us:drool:
     
  14. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    The more I think about it the more I realize that the whole way risk-averse-ness is thought of by the (social) powers that be on Stratics (by which I mostly mean to refer to the most popular posters) needs to be rethought.

    Consider this....Almost every house looting story I have ever heard (thief robs house key from someone's pack, in the days before secure housing, then goes to said house, unlocks it, and dry loots it) has involved the thief being backed up by a pack of blues. Attacking the thief does no good. Risk to thief: Small.

    Also consider how rarely PKs ever ran alone. I'll tell one story from my own experience. Years ago I was PKed by someone on Moonglow and decided I should have done better. After I re-equipped, which took awhile because GM armor wasn't as easy to find then as some folks insist on saying it was, by happenstance I saw him in a house surrounded by blues.

    I stood outside and called him out, Old West style. He came out and fought me and, lo and behold, I was doing a lot better. So much better in fact that he ran inside his house with his blue friends.

    I, blood boiling at his cowardice, ran inside and kept fighting him. Predictably his blue friends blocked the door so I couldn't get out, healed him (they went gray but as soon as I attack one I'm in a two on one) and of course I died.

    Who was risk-averse there?

    There was this other time, after Trammel, when I was attacked by a red near the Chaos Shrine. I kept kicking his ass, whereupon he would run into his house and change armor, and run back out and attack again. (Obviously he thought it was an item-based game back then.) Only to predictably run back inside when he got to half-health. I was an archer in those days, hard to pvP on an archer back then, my rate of fire was so slow that I couldn't so much as get off a hit once he started running. (Post-nerf and pre-Mondain's Legacy/Swing Speed Increase/Fire and Forget/Paralyzing Strike on bows.)

    And this doesn't count the innumerable times I've faced overwhelming numbers from those non-risk averse PKs.

    So, yeah.....

    -Galen's player
     
  15. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    The whole concept of being a successful PK or thief is first and foremost to minimize the risk to yourself and maximize the reward. This involved(s) many things like mentioned above to make sure that any fight is never anything approaching fair or risky. It could be having blue healers, to the death robe thieves to gank squads to running a blue that would wait for a PvM player (who was "dumb enough" to try a bit of risk in fighting a creature that was higher end for their current skillset) to drop within easy one-hit kill distance on their lifebar.

    The point was always to make sure that the victim NEVER had a chance to win. That would defeat the purpose.

    No, that doesn't refer to every PvPer, but to the PKs (not every PvPer is a PK mind you, there IS a difference between the two)... and it was usually these same players would touted the "risk vs reward" mantra in some twisted logic that "they were the risk" and never considering that the concept was meant to run both directions.

    But, as stated, the MMOG market matured and choice was added in and people made that choice by and large. The genie is out of the bottle and attempts to put it back in and remove that level of choice have been often times failures (at least in the Western world Fantasy-based MMOG market).

    People see challenge differently from each other, and no amount of carrots will force people to brave the stick if they didn't want to in the first place, and no amount of debating on these boards will convince people that being victims for other peoples' amusement is a fun way to spend $12-15/month.
     
  16. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    How childish of you all to see in such a narrow minded way...

    It can be fun to be a victim when you can exact revenge.

    Besides... I was a PK and even in the day that meant my character's death if I died... I seeked challenge and fair fights only.

    The days you speak about is when UO was released and it was funny because noobs well were noobs.

    UO and it's people matured, it became more of a community thing, guilds would enter war and it was a challenge, a kind of friendly competition... roleplay was taking hold and became what was cool... not mindless killing.

    It sounds like not many people on these boards realise what is cool and what is not...

    You all are trying to make sense of it but I tell you, it's because of some players whining that you lost what you had...

    I see evil people...
     
  17. LordDrago

    LordDrago Certifiable
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    Thank you Haruchai. Saved me from having to write this. :)
     
  18. LordDrago

    LordDrago Certifiable
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    Coolness is in the eye of the beholder.....


    and the Fonz!!!!!
     

    Attached Files:

  19. LoL/Sonoma

    LoL/Sonoma Guest

    This.

    /close thread

    :lol:
     
  20. sligachan

    sligachan Journeyman
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    In my opening post I alluded to a 'possible' solution that might be acceptable to a number of people (not everyone).

    The idea was one (not all - not every - just one) dungeon that might run on original rules. Normal rules apply outside the door.

    I also thought about crafters and suggested a new form of armor for this new dungeon.

    I would like to see the return of thieves and detectives (but only within this one dungeon).

    I agree that risk should apply to both sides of any exchange...... therefore what risk/punishment would people find acceptable for anyone caught stealing, before they would accept it as a valid play style?
     
  21. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    In UO I am considered a type of mutilated and deformed magical experiment, indeed a beholder.

    So yes definately I been through it all, I'm not going to ask you to care tho...

    You decide if what I behold is worth it, and think for yourself...
     
  22. Haruchai

    Haruchai Seasoned Veteran
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    Once again, you have several dungeons on "original" rules located in Felucca. Why set up another one?

    I've long thought that the big problem for Raph's player justice idealism was the lack of permanent death. Chasing down PKs and griefers just removed them for a few seconds. If the penalty for reds and thieves was truly mediaeval - permanent loss of character - player justice might have had a point. But then I bet there wouldn't have been many wanting to play PKs or thieves. :)

    Anyway, that's long past. There's Felucca for what you want.
     
  23. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    That actually happened... I'm baffled you have never heard of it...

    I was one of the few lone murderers after full blown penalties came in before trammel.

    IT WAS EPIC !!! best challenge ever... if I died I lost 15% of my skills (over 3000 ppl bounty on my head forget macroing it off :p) so it was the death of my character.

    And thats how I played it ; player justice was handed to me as over 100 players ambushed me at Leiha's (some might remember this lagfest)...

    Yeah, it was a gank, it was lame. But I was THAT GOOD.
     
  24. Haruchai

    Haruchai Seasoned Veteran
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    Aye, I remember the days of significant stat loss - but this is not what I meant by permanent "death" ie loss of character. Plenty of people worked off the loss and many avoided the penalty through tricks. Due to this and other behavioural factors, PK became synonymous with griefer. Player justice sucked, and so they solved it with Trammel.

    Anyway, we digress. That world is never coming back and we all know the reasons why. The Developers have quite enough to do aside from re-inventing dungeons in Trammel to mirror what can already be found in Felucca or by using existing game mechanics.
     
  25. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    Beleive me it didn't suck... I rocked the whole atlantic shard for a whole summer, and there wasn't much other reds, and I fought them, too.

    Not many were willing to risk 15%, to macro it off would take SEVERAL WEEKS. (dont forget skill gain much faster now)

    There were no tricks or hacks against it... I was right there on the top bounty list next to the dreaded GM tinker boombox mastermind haha...

    how is it possible that he had 10 times more kill than me, I don't know... but he did.

    My name was Brainbug and this is not making me any new friends :twak:

    anyways I'm playing siege :next:
     
  26. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    Trammel was just an excuse for the corrupt people who creeped up higher UO management to release a new TOS which guaranteed that all the dupers and hacker and scripters would have "privacy" in their virtual house.

    Thus protecting them, and insuring them stable, standardised revenue over many years.

    It was painfully obvious, but I bet most of you haven't even read the new TOS... if you did it would be obvious why Richard Gariott was so upset when he left UO...

    No he didn't sell his baby for money... he was forced to leave. Open your eyes...
     
  27. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    us?

    Don't you mean me? You have got to be the last person left playing Siege :(
     
  28. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Does every one of your replies to any topic include you telling everyone how great you are?
     
  29. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    I'm just a nerd in an outdated videogame... great is very relative

    your point ?

    Exept bashing siege of course ? I also play there and it's been much, MUCH more fun and lively than any other servers I tried, including my home shard atlantic, no offense folks I had a great time on atlantic too.

    I never hunted alone, there was always someone on when I needed something.

    Absolutely fabulous !
     
  30. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    1) my point was quite clearly that every one of your replies was off topic & involved you stating how great you were

    2) you realize that you used the words 'siege' & 'lively' in the same paragraph? Thats funny.

    3) IMO they should rename Siege to 'Chinese Algebra' (pointlessly difficult)
    Absolutely no more skill involved to play, just more headaches. Thats not oldschool.
    I think the Dev that thought up Siege musta been that original grandfather that always talked about how he used to walk to school uphill both ways lol.
     
  31. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Khaldun worked wonderfully..........11 years ago.

    People keep asking how do we get players back in dungeons? Why don't people go to dungeons? Because there is no reason to kill monsters! Most monsters in old dungeons only give gold and junk magic items. Everyone has more gold than they know what to do with and the best magic items are either Artifacts or crafted. There is literally no reason to kill 95% of the creatures in UO.

    It isn't a dungeon problem. It is a game balance issue.
     
  32. sligachan

    sligachan Journeyman
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    @JC - hence why I started this thread. I would like to see a change that will get people back into the old dungeons. I suggested a change to one dungeon because I realise that my suggestion would not be palatable to all.

    The thread has gone off track somewhat in between..

    However if we are saying there is no reason to go into the dungeons then I would agree, put in rewards that people might want.

    Then make it so that you cannot go in these/this dungeon with imbued or artifact armour (hence making a market for craftsmen). I thought maybe some new dungeon armour could be introduced (I have not thought this through fully - it is a moot point for discussion).

    I would also ask for the insurance to drop off on entry (what will you loose anyway if you cannot take in expensive imbued or artifact armour?).

    I would then allow thieves to operate. I asked earlier in the thread what people would accept as 'fair' if thieves were allowed. It should be very difficult for a thief to steal and get away in my opinion. Maybe they should also take a small hit to skills (temporary loss of say 5% skills if unsuccessful?? - again only an idea for discussion?)

    The point of all this is to have a place where people who do not have all the 'uber' stuff would want to go set against the risks involved.

    Not saying any of these ideas would work....just wanting to have some discussion.
     
  33. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    What a pathetic attempt at destroying my ego... a plant I know synthesises a more potent substance for that purpose than your highly stimulated and capable human body allows you to ever muster.

    That is what I stand for in stratics, all the people who have been demolished by you brillant minds that choose to waste it in half-tought hurried gists. I can see right through you mortal ; and the more it goes the more even the most sceptical moderator keeps an open mind about me. They have learned that I am a badly spoiled child, but that I am not violent and have a kind heart.

    Somehow it is not surprising to me to see that you call yourself Goldberg, no pun intended to the family. People have screennames because UO is a roleplaying game, but not just a game... its grasp as far as being significant goes, reaches far deeper into the realm of "what matters" than is first seen. People have made fortunes out of the "game" ; have you ?

    GOLD berg ? (word meaning elite or high, elevated, the upper class)

    If you have not and you just realised who's mind you are confronting, please gladly step back I do not require an apology.

    If you have... I'll deal with you sooner or later, in game ; because you will all come to siege to feel what is "lively" again.

    Because you will start to understand that UO isn't so much about the material things you see on your screen. It is the community, and most importantly the continuity of the story.

    We can kill a thousand Virtuebane, and have a million expansions. There is one story that has conveniently shifted into another dimension. Stories of brotherhood, of trust and virtue.

    This untold and UNFINISHED story, is happening right now on earth rather than here. Who will suffer for it ? What should goldberg do now, sacrifice himself selflessly and bear the sin of the world to save them ? To hell...

    I have the LEISURE of reminding you because I am not part of it. I am your companion, you can put me on ignore if you like, I'll still feel like I can communicate something that will make you help yourself, Avatar. There is not room for everyone in my garden...

    Hey Lynk, have we made peace yet ? :p

    Oh yes... goldberg... there is a rule here that says help build the community ? I'm sorry I didn't hear quite well ; what did you say about siege ?
     
  34. sligachan

    sligachan Journeyman
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    Build community? yup that's what I am looking for ...more interaction in the dungeons etc etc.

    How about a reply to my questions posed earlier, rather than a PVP thread battle.
     
  35. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    Shut up, you wanted the cherry, go after it.

    Besides Mr. Goldberg...

    Isn't it clear by now, that you win anyways ?

    Go play your emulator, off my arse !

    *turns back*

    Uh sorry dude...

    Your idea is good really, haven't I MADE THAT CLEAR YET ?!
     
  36. LadyNico

    LadyNico Always Present
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    The folks that play non-Siege shards want the safety that both insurance and the Trammel-ruled facets offer.

    Sligachan, what you seek already exists on Siege.

    I ping fairly well to Siege and I'm in the UK. So is Petra. Other European-based players also play Siege.

    The choice is there: Come to Siege or don't.
     
  37. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    The things that keep most people from switching to siege are the inability to train skills from npcs, the absurdly slow skill gain system, the expensiveness of things from npcs while being unable to sell to the npcs.

    Change thise things about siege and you'd see a population increase there.
     
  38. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

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    Classic UO offered a lot of things today's UO will never have. True villainy and heroics could exist in those times apart from strict, scripted RP; today it can ONLY exist through strict RP (making it synthetic at best). The times of heros and villains are over for UO, all that is left are griefers, hoarders, and a few grumpy roleplayers.
     
  39. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

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    Now, that's the thing you see. They did change one of those things, it is no longer 'absurdly slow' to gain skill, but no matter how often we say that, most people still don't know. I gm'd carpentry in 3 days only recently.
     
  40. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran 4H

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    Below are the real skills for my three Siege characters. I started working on them on March 8, 2011, about seven weeks ago. They are clearly not all complete, but the tamer character only needs to train 4.0 taming to hit 120 real taming and the other characters are well on their way to being finished in their first sets of skills (I'll probably get soulstones for both the crafter and the resource gatherer to add to their skill collection). I have not used any Scrolls of Alacrity or Scrolls of Transcendence on any of these characters. (I have some small value mining and blacksmithing SoTs to use at the appropriate time.) Carolyn and Madeline were in the NEW guild for five weeks and Margrette is still in NEW (as an emissary). I also didn't "buy" gold on Siege or trade for gold on Siege using gold on other shards. (Some players trade 4 or 5 million gold on Atlantic for 1 million gold on Siege. Nothing wrong with doing that, it's just not something I was interested in doing.) A generous player gave me 1 million gold to place the first house, 1 million to buy a 120 taming PS, and I won 500k gold in a scavenger hunt. Everything else in my three houses and on my characters has been earned the hard way or was received as a gift.

    [​IMG]

    The only things I've found to be breathtakingly expensive on Siege are the books for miners, carpenters, and alchemists to read (approximately 35k each) and, of course, gems purchased from jeweler NPCs. Everything else hasn't been too bad. Hopefully by the time I get around to training inscription, cooking, and alchemy, I'll have enough reagents and bark fragments stockpiled to keep the cost of regs and blank scrolls at a reasonable level.

    Training crafting skills while in RoT (especially imbuing) is pretty cheap compared to other shards and if you just get all your crafting skill gains every 15 minutes or so, that's ample time to take a hunting character out in between gains and make some gold and gather some needed resources or fill some BoDs and turn them in for new ones.

    I don't intend to PvP with any of my characters unless I really can't avoid it. I know that means they don't have the same level of expenses as PvP characters. However, I think it's still important to have characters such as mine on Siege to do the farming of resources, do the treasure hunting for recipes, arties, and SoAs, and to craft gear and other items needed for all characters to use. If characters like them weren't on Siege, the PvPers would have to spend even more of their time reequipping between fights, something I know many of them don't enjoy.

    Anyway, don't mean to pick a fight with anyone. Just wanted to respond back regarding the idea that training skills on Siege is very slow. Without the daily cap on RoT gains, gaining in many skills is actually not too bad and for skills like taming is actually very fast compared to elsewhere.
     
  41. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    Thanks Tina...

    I was brewing some serious anger there... sorry if I offended anyone.

    I'm sick and tired of people being allowed to tell lies on here and get away with it.

    Omnius... the way I see it, for the first time in a long while you have the choice of enjoying being happy to buy your first armor with hard earned gold... it gives a certain charm to the beginning of a character.

    But you can also join NEW and they are amply generous.

    I did both, I took my time to gain for 2 weeks on my own, and then joined NEW. I did not even accept all the gifts they wanted to give me cause I wanna build my own character the way its meant to, SO MUCH FUN I HAVE...