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Chain Disarm

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Cetric, Mar 28, 2010.

?

Should Disarm be altered?

This poll will close on Aug 13, 2037 at 10:08 AM.
  1. Disarm is fine as it is.

    28 vote(s)
    44.4%
  2. Disarm should have a 15 or 20 second timer between uses.

    28 vote(s)
    44.4%
  3. I could care less.

    7 vote(s)
    11.1%
  1. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Per a thread on the test center forum:

    Should there be a cooldown timer on being able to disarm. Before anyone goes "omg omg you jsut got owned by a dexer" no, quite the opposite actually, i have a char that abuses the crap out of disarm. That being said, i'd love to see a cooldown timer, say 15/20 seconds between being able to disarm. Sort of like you can't chain para with a weapon.
     
  2. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Poll needs more options, or at least a less specific option for fixing disarm.
    As a fighter, I realize disarm is pretty lame (and I also use it to my advantage a lot).
    If the hit lands, they're disarmed... and there really isn't anything fighters can do except run around until they can re-equip (and then get disarmed again).

    Make it resist-able, give it a timer, give it a chance to fail, whatever, but something needs to make it weaker. Its an attack that really can't be defended against, and it renders the character almost completely useless.
     
  3. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I've thought for a long time that disarm needs to be changed, that it's broken the way it works now. But my suggestion isn't in your poll, so I won't vote. I've suggested this a number of times, but I'll repost it here.

    When a player attempts to disarm another player, this is roughly what should happen, in my opinion. Both characters should add up their melee weapon skill, tactics, strength and dexterity and divide that number by four. The defender's total should be subtracted from the attacker's and that number added to 25 to give a chance of the disarm attempt being successful (the exact numbers in the formula could be adjusted based on testing and feedback).

    This would have the effect of making it much more difficult to disarm a dedicated warrior, which is the way it should be in my opinion. The current situation is ridiculous. There is no way anyone should be able to disarm a legendary warrior as easily as you can right now.
     
  4. Freelsy

    Freelsy Babbling Loonie
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    You know disarm is a weapon special...soooooo...If you get one nerfed..they all have got to get nerfed.


    Besides, disarm is extremely useful against mage-wep wielding mages. Also against dismounting dread mare riders, or moving shot archers....You nerf this you've effectively made all those templates 10x more powerful.
     
  5. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I think everyone can agree that disarm is a special case. It affects pvp in a negative way that others don't by turning pvp into a running match even more than it already can be. It is also arbitrary with no reasonable logic to support it.
     
  6. Saint of Killers

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    I think there should be a nerf on the timer for re-equipping spell channeling mage weapons. Since it's a "free" melee weapon skill for magery (which no other skill has..."omg my mage has to put on magery to use a mage wep, how unfair for me") I think mage weapons should take twice as long to re-equip.

    I think I shall start a poll!

    While we're at it, I think I should start a poll about whether or not imbued planeswords (which gets a free fc1 that isn't added into the imbuing equation) should be nerfed.

    Dexxers already got kicked in the groin enough with the JOAT mana changes on their specials in case you hadn't noticed. I know you're acting like a dexxer representative in this thread Cetric, but we all know you on GL as a mage first, gimpy 4/6 dexxer/weaver flavor of the week (currently) second.

    BTW, did Malador talk to you during that event yesterday since you weren't on a pure mage or necro mage? I know how those gimp templates turn his stomach. :D
     
  7. Locryn Finck

    Locryn Finck Guest

    I don't get the issues people have with it. Dexxers fight back and forth with it - some run, some run in circles, others heal. Disarm alone isn't going to win you fights. And, YOU can be disarmed by your opponent. I can't help it if somebody's Bushido autodexxer can't handle a switch weapons macro. Other than that, it seems to me mages want their cake and the ability to eat it too. Here is why:

    Mage: DISARM IS BROKEN!

    Dexxer: Its part of my abilities. I use it to hit you more than 30% of the time, and it costs mana and takes away from another higher dmg special. If you hate being disarmed and hit, maybe you should consider using a disarm special too.

    Mage: I cant because I use a mage wep nub!

    Dexxer: Why?

    Mage: Because I want to cram as much necro and DPS onto my template as possible and maintain and incredibly obscene passive defense thats why!

    Dexxer: Sounds like a tradeoff.

    Mage: Im logging into the stratics forums now.
     
  8. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Note that my idea would make disarm much more effective against mages than it would against dexxers. I haven't worked out the math thoroughly but it would probably make disarm ineffective against most dexxers while allowing it to still be effective against most mages.
     
  9. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    The first part isn't true, take concussion for example, that got nerfed and nothing else did, thus your logic is flawed.

    Disarm is useful against everyone except wrestle or anat/eval so why you're trying to single out certain templates doesn't make sense. Disarm will do well against everything except those two.

    Also It won't make the other templates more powerful, archer tamers got it bad with the JoaT change, there is no way they can fit 300 skill points making their specials very costly.

    You're acting like someone is suggesting that disarm be taken out of the game which isn't the case. The only idea being humored is that disarm should have a cool down similar to being what happens after taking a paralyzing blow.
     
  10. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Well man, if you read my first thing, how it came from a test center thread. That post was actually from Puni. Who is basically always a dexer.

    So comming from a mage, ehh, ok.

    Oh and by the way, i don't have a 4/6 dexer, and flavor of the week? i always played a wrestle mage and sometimes a necro mage. 3 weeks ago i decided to make what i currently run. How many different gimp templates do you play Saint? lol
     
  11. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    passive defense ehh? See, i might agree with you if parry didn't have that high dex requirement. It hinders your other stats/mods sooo much.
     
  12. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    I would say NO. If you cannot move a few tiles and rearm in 3 seconds then maybe that person needs more practice, a macro or just stick to pvming.


    Only special I have concerns over is dismount.
     
  13. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    True, it's not hard... but you just get your weapon disarmed the second you reequip it anyway, or you disarm them, and the process repeats forever until someone runs out of bandages, potions, whatever.
    Also renders a fighter defenseless against someone with disarm and ranged attacks.
     
  14. Splup

    Splup Guest

    Haha yea I always laugh when I see 2 melee dexers fighting each other... Both try Disarm AI AI AI combo but what happens is Disarm running running running disarm running running running.

    Then there's these melee archers who do disarm moving shot moving shot moving shot which ofc works better.

    Yea I dunno... Would it make magewep mages better? Only against disarm archers I quess, since melee is useless when the mage starts running straight away when disarmed (except if the melee dude is speedhacking he can still get hits in). A group of dexers then again should be able to kill the disarmed mage without need to spam disarm many times.

    I do think disarm makes many fights really boring atm, cause some people just spam it like hell. Those fights are nothing but disarm run run run, try to fight untill he gets 1 hit in which is disarm and then you keep running again. I quess something could be done to it.

    But my parrymage doesn't really care rolleyes:
     
  15. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    The reason this is kind of brought up is, disarm is a nice tactical move. If you are in a bind, disarm them, if you want to try to get a big combo off on a magweapon mage disarm them and try to light them up before the re-arm timer kicks in.

    All fine and dandy.

    But spamming it like is done today is kind of ridiculous, its like soem of the cheating now, alot of people didn't cheat because it was "taboo" to do so. just like chaining disarm was.


    i'm not saying it should disappear, it shouldn't be chainable though. You cannot chain para blow with a weapon, why should you be able to do this?

    I've seen several dexers that do not equip another weapon when fighting another dexer besides their respective disarm weapon. They chain disarm until you would manage to disarm them, and then it still continues.
     
  16. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    That is the char i picked up playing recently. It is silly how fast it can destroy someone, or render them helpless. Unless you are a parry mage like you are of course. On some mage weapon mage disarm-bleed ms ms ms ms game over lol. its silly. And if it doesn't work start the chain again.

    on a parry dexer, just chain disarm, and run in circles using archery.


    I've honestly used by dexer to fight a few people, and heck its funny, there is one parry dexer that does this no matter what. He has parry, so not like its going to be easy to do anything to him anyways, and he never drops his war fork, just disarms continuously.
     
  17. MiNi MaGi

    MiNi MaGi Sage
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    some sort of timer yes.. but not 10 seconds..
     
  18. AzSel

    AzSel Lore Keeper
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    Can make it so the person getting disarmed will "remember" it for a little while and grip his weapon more firmly in the next seconds(aprox 10 seconds) after he rearms. And it should be harder to disarm a melee char over an archer imo.
     
  19. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Hmm that isn't a bad thought. Like someone else mentioned, a 120 melee char should be able to be disarmed so simple, an archer, sure. heck even a mage weapon mage sure.

    maybe like that immunity timer on concussion now, after it is used a few times it gets less and less powerful on that person. Maybe you cans till chain disarm someone, but some perecentage absed on skill they become more immune to it and it gets harder (almost just bump up there defense chance every time they are disarmed, only for the disarm special.) Some sort of formula, like 2x for a warrior, 1x for an archer, and no immunity for a char without skill (mage weapon)
     
  20. Clog|Mordain

    Clog|Mordain Lore Master
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    Personally, I think disarm should be bare hands only, and disarm specials on weapons replaced with a similar special. Maybe, Fumble? Where fumble reduces DCI and SSI?
     
  21. Saint of Killers

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    Alright Cetric, since Puni (Hyatt) made the initial gripe about it, then I hear him. He rarely disarms unless disarmed first. Different templates "need" disarm more.

    Hyatt gears his temp to hit like a truck using a war axe.

    Bush/parry dexxers obv hate disarm since they don't carry a shield, so they can chug. They want their cake and eat it too. Obv bush/parry temps want to sit there and trade punches with their parry and evasion and chugging.

    Mage wep mages are in the bush/dexxer class, except mages are brighter obv. Mage weps are the most unfair advantage in any class. No other class gets a free 100 skill points to play with, and it's not like an extra "whatever" free 100 points like a 120 med mage putting on 100 focus. It's a "game changing" free 100 skill points, and yes I obv use mage weps on my mages.

    Archers obv hate disarm, especially newbie stealth archers that get disarmed/bled (omg the bleed tick revealed me after my smoke bomb). Straight up archers are like bushy/dexxers except they obv don't stay in range to be hit so of course they don't like disarm.

    Melee/archers are rampant, but with the JOAT change a lot of them are out of gas before you have to worry about very much.

    Ninja/bush/swords is a very popular class on GL (made so by me obviously). :p Obv this class has little natural damage pop since it runs 90 tactics 0 anat and very little DI. Of course someone like Hyatt would want us to just swing away with him. What melee temp with capped or near capped anat/tacts/DI "wouldn't" want this lil template to just sit there and trade punches. Especially since this temp usually doesn't run parry or healing.

    This disarm whine should have come before the JOAT changes. Now that JOAT has effectively watered a lot of dexxer templates down, it's kind of ridiculous to say "hey let's nerf disarm too".

    The gimp comment wasn't a shot at you Cetric. You know I'm 100% gimp, and love it. Your 4/6 dexxer/weaver is a gimp, and that was the only template you are playing (that I know of) that is gimpy. That was more of a shot at your guild bunny Malador because he makes fun of gimps.

    Ooh speaking of Malador, I have a new poll I have to go start!
     
  22. dukarlo

    dukarlo Seasoned Veteran
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    If Saint couldnt skip up to you from half a screen away and disarm you then run and hide, how would all his archer guildies skip up to you to triple armor ignore you? Saint plays nothing but hiding dexers/archers of sorts. Disarm has never done anything but promote running like a little girl in pvp. When it comes to running Saint always has an advantage and thats why disarm suits him just fine. I always find it extremely sad that players such as Saint and company actualy try to chime in about pvp when there are so many things wrong with well, lets just say his "playstyle" for the sake of stratics not having a cow.
     
  23. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    You can't see someone else using a template, then make your own and claim responsibility for the popularity of it.
     
  24. dukarlo

    dukarlo Seasoned Veteran
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    Lynk, you definately played a good ninja long before Speedy Gonzales did.
     
  25. Saint of Killers

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    Lol, back then you were not a bushy dexxer. You were just a melee/spirit speaking/rez killing dexxer. There was no bok bok in your hand ever because you weren't bok bok.

    I took the template to new levels "obviously". lol

    When are you gonna show your face Lynk? Dubar, and Dorinda, and Torem are back. You can get Michel to stay on Zedd more, and you now have your 2.0 group hug "hold those flamestrikes" back!
     
  26. Saint of Killers

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    You know Denard, I've been playing a mage pretty exclusively for the last 3 weeks, and I'm amazed at how terrible you and Malbador are on your mages in the field. This stuff really isn't that hard, and to think, you two put so much skill merit in how good people pure duel, yet really aren't that good on mages. lol

    Set up the tourney. Three weeks on a mage, and I bet I could already roll you and Malbador in a pure duel!
     
  27. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    O rly?

    :popcorn:
     
  28. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Sort of agree, sort of don't.

    I still like what the one guy sort of mentioned that i elaborated on..being that it should be harder to chain disarm a 120 melee char, fairly easy to disarm an archer, and extremely easy to disarm a mage weapon
    , since it has no fighting skill actually attached to it.

    something like :

    Melee/Wrestle char:

    100% after dci check on first try
    75% after dci check on second
    50% after dci check on 3rd
    25% after dci check on 4th
    25% after dci check on 5th
    25% after dci check on 6th

    (for sake of argument, cap this at 25% diminshed, say for if someones about to die, and their last hope is to cross their fingers and land a lucky disarm.

    Archer:

    100% after dci check on first try
    85% after dci check on second
    60% after dci check on 3rd
    45% after dci check on 4th
    45% after dci check on 5th
    45% after dci check on 6th

    Mage Weapon/non fighting skill:

    100% after dci check on first try
    90% after dci check on second
    80% after dci check on 3rd
    70% after dci check on 4th
    70% after dci check on 5th
    70& after dci check on 6th
     
  29. dukarlo

    dukarlo Seasoned Veteran
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    Saint all you do on your mystic/mage is cast the same area effect spell(useless btw) over and over and then run away(we know how you love to run for reasons known to anyone that plays gl). Running because you have an adavantage in it is not mage pvp. Im no uber leet mage, but i play by the rules and kill many more than kill me. Someone that will never be able to catch you does not make one terrible nor does you outrunning everyone else make you good.
     
  30. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Congrats to you on that, your mystic guy is pretty effective in the field (think it is hail storm you throw around alot???) I've been pleasantly surprised to see FKD field more and more mages instead of tons and tons of ninja archers. I haven't even worked mystic yet, let alone seriously played with it =/ i suppose i really should now that there are more changes to it.
     
  31. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    I'd like it if it just prevented you from dealing damage and that's it. The fact it takes away any defence you have is over kill. If it were to change to only remove your weapon and not take away your defensive ability they should make shields disarm targets also. Shield disarm should be implemented anyways.

    My idea a while ago was (weapon skill) + (tactics) /2 = Your base defensive ability.

    Tank mages would be able to defend disarmed.

    Dexers would be able to defend disarmed.

    Mage weapon welders would remain the same fodder they should be since they don't have the points invested to properly defend themselves. (The trade is greater offensive ability normally)

    Wrestle/anat mages still don't have to worry about this ever. But can use the unarmed specials unlike everyone else. (Anat mages get +20 skill points but can't perform special moves)

    Bushi dexers arn't impossible to hit while disarmed they just lose parry for the duration.

    And anyone that uses a shield for parrying is disarmed of their shield.

    Seems level enough doesn't it?
     
  32. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    People crying over disarm. The first issue was people automatically rearming after disarm. The people cried, then they put in a 3 second timer.

    Now after all this time since AOS, since that adjustment now disarming is an issue?

    Fine! take the timer out lol.


    All these Ideas are not thought out and you will end up being like Jeremy and Guildmule nerfing the whole [email protected] game.
     
  33. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    With everything else going on in the game, chain disarm has gotten bigger. That is the reason this is revisited.
     
  34. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Keep disarm and just change the defensive calculation. My idea would attract attention to tank mage templates, and a lot of these dexer templates that just skim by with 90 tactics (myself included) would have to drop skills in something to maintain a reliable defense chance.

    I know for me that'd be 30 med and that's pretty important imo...
     
  35. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    Bull..

    It maybe a bit more of a concern for those sporting a mage weapon and finding their 70 dci investment not paying off, other than that nothing has changed on the field.

    Another thing - Why would anyone voluntarily give an archer a 15-20 second window to AI and moving shoot him to death?
     
  36. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    LOL even in my suggestion for disarm i recommended that mage weapons get shafted. I just think its bull**** that if im on a dexer, someone can just stand there disarming you over and over and over and not bother actually fighting. there are tons of these people.

    Disarm used to be taboo, where someone didn't disarm until they got disarmed by some ******bag. just like speedhacking was taboo.

    there have been countless occassions where a parry dexer will come up, never unequip his war fork, and only use disarm, and no other tactic. Rendering the person he is fighing no offense. The only answer to that is a wrestle mage, which i do play and enjoy, but it shouldn't have to resort to that.
     
  37. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    So stop using it except every 15-20 seconds and quit trying to get limits put on everything you yourself do you hypocrite.
     
  38. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    LOL, if i really wanted to keep doing it i would hold my tongue and come here and complain against it much like you are. I abuse it on one of my chars because he gets disarmed. 95% of the time i don't even initiate the disarm.

    Oh and btw, i play this char about once a week, i play mages, but even i can see the problem with it.
     
  39. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    Go back and look at my edit. There are more than dexer vs dexer. Put in a stupid delay like that would make most dexers archer meat. If i have multiple enemies (in which most cases I do) I want at least a chance to disarm if need be when the need arises.

    If you want a no disarm fight, just ask for a duel rolleyes:
     
  40. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Then you will be pleasently surprised i changed my mind a few posts up:





    Oh and if u want to duel...i don't dexer duel. but i will happily mage duel.
     
  41. Saint of Killers

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    I could live with those changes, and it does seem fair compared to just nerfing disarm timers altogether.

    I'm guilty of spamming it vs certain players like Hyatt who I know has straight up melee 1v1 advantages vs my ninja no-parry no-healing no-DI template, and also go for disarms vs mage wep wielding players, but you're right, vs most melee dexxers it's disarm or be disarmed, and it does get annoying.

    I also like Hyatt's proposal of: (weapon skill) + (tactics) /2 = Your base defensive ability.
     
  42. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    To be on topic, I don't really find that there is a huge problem with disarm. When I do actually play my mages are all anat/eval or wrestle so it doesn't affect me.

    When I play a dexer and I get disarmed I just run in a circle until I can rearm. There are some people that chain disarm but those fights aren't really that bad, eventually a dice roll will go in your favor and they die anyways. I've never died because someone chain disarmed.
     
  43. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    You also smoke bomb man lol.

    Take a fencer/archer on who just plans to chain disarm/bleed you, and ai/conc/mortal you if you stay close, and moving shot you when you run away.

    If its a straight dexer, run in a circle so be it, but the melee archer will take that away from you in a hurry.
     
  44. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Bleed/Moving shot is not that big of a deal. You can time the gheal cast in between the shots and/or dmg tick. Or if you're on a dexer you can time the bandaid to hit after bleed wears.

    Besides, I only smoke bomb on Ressurection. There are plenty of other dexers that I play or have played.

    I honestly don't find disarm to be overpowered.
     
  45. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    It's not a matter of winning or losing the fight, or living and dying, at least in my opinion. The issue is fights that completely lose their flow and quickly become annoying circle dances. I don't have any problem with a disarm ending a fight. What I do have a problem with is someone being disarmed, and running around in a circle for however long it takes to rearm.

    I also have a problem with how easy it is to disarm a supposedly "legendary" warrior. I don't have a problem with a mage losing a mage weapon to a legendary warrior. I don't have a problem with that happening to an archer either, in both cases their primary attacks are ranged, so it makes sense that they would be at a disadvantage in a toe to toe slugfest. But there is no way in Hades you should be able to easily make a legendary warrior who is fast as lightning, with the steady hands and dexterity of a watch maker, and the strength of a bull, drop her or his weapon.
     
  46. Hi_im_from_atl

    Hi_im_from_atl Journeyman
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    Agreed.

    I play a lot of dexxers and hardly dissarm on any of them, I will however dissarm dissmount archers.

    From what I have seen dissarm is a crutch, I set my temps up so I can hit without it and hardly need it.
     
  47. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Lynk, i think you are missing the point. Its not that disarm is some godly overpowered move to the people, its that it is getting just damn annoying.

    people chain disarm rather than fight, then turn around and go HAHAHAHA you cant kill me!

    oh, and i play wrestle/anat mages too, this really has nothing to do with them. I'm sure not everyone wants to play a wrestle mage, and they shouldn't have to. If they want to play a dexer, they shouldn't need to put up with it.


    I brought up the disarm archer, not because of fighting a mage, but fighting a dexer. oh my god u should see how hilarious it is when an archer hops on foot to dismount me. Disarm--bleed, conc mortal conc its entertaining to say the least, and if it fails, rinse repeat!
     
  48. MiNi MaGi

    MiNi MaGi Sage
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    your 100% correct sir
     
  49. Saint of Killers

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    Typical Lynk, "if it doesn't effect me there's no problem". lol

    Oh and your sig is outdated. You obviously haven't seen me in the field lately. It's more like 70% mage variants/20% ninja dexxer/10% archer. But whatever floats your boat bunny.

    My sig still holds true though, which we'll see if you ever decide to rejoin factions on GL with the rest of your "don't flag, we need house access" buddies.
     
  50. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Well if it doesn't affect me and I don't abuse it why would I really feel it was a problem?

    My sig isn't outdated, it was a direct quote from something you posted on Uhall. Quotes are timeless.

    Your sig doesn't really hold true, I no longer hold the guildstone for 2.0 and I don't know if anyone even plays under that tag anymore.

    You can't beat me in game and you can't beat me on a forum saint. Maybe one day we could go bowling when we meet up for our irl date, you could probably beat me at that.