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Chaos Virtue

Discussion in 'UHall' started by anna anomalous, Oct 4, 2011.

  1. With increased focus on the Virtue system, there's been talk about the desire to see a Chaos Virtue for Murderers (since they are barred from using the True Virtues).

    I'm posting here to bring the subject to an open discussion on whether should it be implemented and what effects would the Chaos Virtue give?

    What do you think?
     
  2. Tazar

    Tazar Guest

    Penalties for Murderer's - not Rewards.
     
  3. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Chaos isnt a virtue of any kind. Its is all that stands in opposition to virtue.

    As for the anti virtues it could be fun to implement.

    Deceit- Some kind of ability to disguise yourself? Ability to hide your spell words? No clue how you would raise it.

    Despise- Increase damage you do, and damage you take as an activated ability. Gain via committing murder.

    Timidity- Boost DCI, drop HCI via activated ability. Not sure how to raise that either.

    Bigotry- Dunno? Ideas?

    Covetous- Improve drops in gold but decrease luck. Improved by looting gold.

    Shame- No ideas there.

    Baseness- Inflict stat loss on victims, but when you die you must remain a ghost for some period. Raised by drinking, defacing shines or something?

    Pride- no ideas for this one either.

    I bet you could work the virtuebane into it as well.

    Theres also the Gargoyle and Ophidian virtues too.
     
  4. Xalan Dementia

    Xalan Dementia Slightly Crazed
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    great ideas!
    Dont have to have them for murderers but just more for the anti virtuous. RP characters that walk the thin line between anti virtue and evil.
    If they focus they could knock out the remaining virtues and start work on the Anti side.


    Pride- could have a special robe you wear that draws attention from npcs/monsters. Some wearable that shouts "Hey check me out!" and causes you to take more Agro from monsters. the bonus could be a defensive boost or something, meant for a Tanking character.

    Shame- perhaps similar to honor? target your opponent and if you defeat them in a timely manner or by a huge HP difference or something like that, thereby Shaming them in battle? Maybe for Pvp you could have a global or area message that lets people know who shamed who? and if ya dont win the fight ya take a stat loss or something detrimental.

    Baseness- the shrine defacing idea is good, maybe also gain from knocking over gravestones in graveyards or in fel woods? Or even graffiti tagging guard houses and banks.
     
  5. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Inquisitor
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    Ummmmmm.....

    Agreed!

    Definition of VIRTUE
    1a : conformity to a standard of right : morality b : a particular moral excellence
    2plural : an order of angels — see celestial hierarchy
    3: a beneficial quality or power of a thing


    If you ask me there are not enough penalties on Murderer's as it is. Good versus Evil basically, Evil should have to pay a price, not get rewarded for doing what is "wrong".
     
  6. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Good ideas! Maybe for pride you activate it by shouting "I am the best!" or something silly like that and standing in one spot for a long time, then you gain for taking damage while in the spot.

    I like the idea of shaming someone/thing. Maybe that could tie into pride. The more pride a target has, the worse the effect of being shamed, and then also the more humility you have the less of an effect it takes.

    It would be neat to tie the regular virtues into it like that for all of them.
     
  7. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Inquisitor
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    On second thought, give reds anti-virtues......


    Just don't let them invoke them :D

    :twak:
     
  8. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Meh, I think being stuck in one facet of the game world is penalty enough personally.

    As for anti virtues, they are in the mythology, I don't see why you couldn't implement them in non destructive ways for those who want to play an evil character.

    There's really not a ton of stuff to do if you are evil other than kill people. I know that I like to play a shady/non virtuous character, but I don't like to pk people, so it would be fun to have other avenues of play to identify myself as such outside of rping.
     
  9. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    There are no longer any significant penalties for PKing aside from not being able to come to Trammel, and that's something they actively profess to not want to do anyway.

    To give them something extra is a tad much by any reasonable standard.

    Using Chaos is a deep misunderstanding of Chaos as preached originally by Blackthorn (though of course it devolved into something more sinister over time).

    The Chaos Shrine never rezzed murderers because Chaos as designed liked murder, but because it saw value even in the lives of murderers.

    Granted, Chaos devolved into something more sinister over time, thus perhaps suggesting that the deliberate absence of values naturally develops into negative values. Perhaps.

    At any rate.....No. Chaos is a virtue, and PKs have enough when you think about it.

    *shrugs*

    -Galen's player
     
  10. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    at the very least make it so reds can pop spawns. :thumbup:
     
  11. red sky

    red sky Sage
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    Rofl, that's like sayig Penalties for Necromancers - No casting spells. :thumbup:
     
  12. red sky

    red sky Sage
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    I'm guessing you play a PK on a regular basis or PvP.

    Not.
     
  13. Frarc

    Frarc Stratics Legend
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    People want to be rewarded for being dishonest? Or for being a coward? Or a liar?


    If we going to start with that then there is realy something wrong with this world!
     
  14. Hmmm ... in an age of soulstones ...
    HOW can any character >possibly< believe that they are STUCK?(in fel)

    Pavlovian >conditioning< Maybe ... real skinner box stuff .. BUT

    they ain't truly stuck ... 5-7 soulstone fragments and they are trueblueFREE ..

    oops!

    Did >I think< of something BEFORE ALL of the PvPers did?

    Screw it ... i ain't gonna be here much longer ...
    I'm gonna take a FIRST (that) with me ...

    Feel Free to revel noobies on how Fayled STOLE that from the reds ...
    :gee:
     
  15. MagicStar

    MagicStar Journeyman
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    why not give anything to reds?
    in any game we need good and evil
    i hate when i see people complain about doing right or wrong its a game and the reds are playing it too
    heck we need them and id dare say we need more of them
    so yeah give them some virtues
    some way that encourages people to go to the dark side as well

    all these complaints would be viable only if this were real life
    but some people here make me think when they played mario they wrote angry letters to nintendo to get rid of all the goombas and bowser
    on another note pvm for some of us is boring
    AI cant compete with real players

    my vote is you raise chaos by killing blues and when you reach certain murder counts they should be given special titles as well
     
  16. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    People want to be rewarded for being dishonest? Or for being a coward? Or a liar?


    If we going to start with that then there is realy something wrong with this world!


    They do and they get rewarded... we call them "politicians".
     
  17. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Is that a red politician, or a blue politician? heh
     
  18. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    Wow... talk about a confusing subject... its all so... chaotic...

    Chaos associated with murder ?! silly...

    Chaos a virtue ?! thats silly... maybe under dire circumstances can it be part of virtue...

    Chaos giving "value" to a murder's life ? It gives as much value to a rock falling on said murderer... it was pure chaos, he couldn't prevent it...

    ahlala
     
  19. SixUnder

    SixUnder Legendary Assassin
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    all blue chars are given numerous rewards and benefits to having a blue character, while a red has none.

    having a chaose virtue for reds only i think would be good for everyone involved.


    how about immunity from a gank squad. your on foot. getting ganked and once a day or whatever u can hit chaos virtue like the other 5 or whatever blues have, and magically have your bar turn yellow for 30 seconds or something. that would be awesome.
     
  20. SixUnder

    SixUnder Legendary Assassin
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    fyi, reds dont care about counts. my main is about to break 16,000 long terms and means nothing except i been here since day 1. plus we dont care about titles either.

    if it is not combat related or gonna benefit your char in someway. we dont want it.
     
  21. SixUnder

    SixUnder Legendary Assassin
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    for those of you who are aos newbies are trammies.

    we went YEARS with stat loss dont even talk about moralities.

    always had a advantage, maybe its time for a little pendulumm swing.

    if you do not play a red, you are either one a coward or two prefer candyland. IF you are the later, stay out of the conversation. As it does not pertain to you.
     
  22. Does the color of your tag really associate to your actions? Do blue characters not steal, scam, kill as well? Do blue characters not use forged pardons to get rid of murder counts? What makes a murderer any different other than they choose not to remove their counts?

    If stat loss returned and red players were forced to lose .1 in all skills upon a death, would this change your stance on reds being barred from some type of virtue system?

    What real benefit is there to being red? That you can take counts freely? To me, it's about opportunity. For example, a large reward at hand, most blue players will not hesitate to kill, steal, or scam, given the opportunity. To me, they are both the same. Two sides of the same coin. That is my main argument here.

    I love the responses this is getting and some ideas are very interesting. Thanks for all the feedback!
     
  23. SixUnder

    SixUnder Legendary Assassin
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    no penalties?

    there is

    trammel
    malas
    tokuno
    ish
    ter mur

    we dont even have access too. i have 6 reds and a blue crafter on one shard i have no way to access anything in candyland. dont talk about what penalties. I cant even buy well anything unless i move stuff around. Exapnsion. where are they all at ? candylands.

    we have nothing in felluca. spawns are donw so fast you cant keep an eye on them all. so then what is left for us? the gate. harrowers. please it is not even a comparison.

    why isnt there another red facet?
    dont even start about siege, if i wanted to play as i did before most of you hit adolescence, id play free shards.


    make a felluca expansion.
     
  24. SixUnder

    SixUnder Legendary Assassin
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    I kill for the rush. not glory, nothing. just the rush. and I love it so much i am still here 14 years later. :>
     
  25. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Chaos is not a virtue. It is the absence of virtue or anti-virtue. Those who are unlawful. As most know all dungeons in main Britannia are the opposite of each virtue. Those follow chaos would have to be considered criminals to guards so I can't think of any other type of character other than PKs to be followers of chaos.

    If they were to develop this then perhaps there should be a quest for blues wanting to follow chaos to get them on that path. And if they choose to follow virtues again another quest. If you're a PK then obviously you would be on the chaos path already, no need for quest. The virtue tab in the paper-doll menu would change between chaos/virtue depending on your path.

    Perhaps here is when we can actually make some real difference other than rule-set for tram/fel. Those who follow chaos would be unwelcome in most tram towns, welcome in most fel towns. Those who follow virtues unwelcome in most fel towns and most tram towns and welcome in most tram towns. Luna for virtuous and Umbra for chaos.

    So for chaos I guess each option would reflect the anti for each virtue, as the titles of the original dungeons. Only problem is I am not sure where to even begin on how you'd get points for each one. Or perhaps there would just be on main path for chaos?
     
  26. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    *starts about Siege*

    You think someone is afraid of you ?

    *lmao*

    Irony is painful... even if you have a nice idea for a chaos power, gank squad immunity is always a + in my book...

    but oh man... *fp*
     
  27. Well then!
    done and done!

    *dusts hands*

    Now for those Not >so easily entertained and bemused< ...

    You are trying to define and border(limit) "chaos"
    :eyes::thumbup::lol:

    at the moment it has FAIL written all over it ... but

    :popcorn: let us see ...
     
  28. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    I told you that you would have fun eventually old man. Didn't I ?

    *steals popcorn* :popcorn:

    I'm not empty words and wasted time !
     
  29. virtualhabitat

    virtualhabitat Lore Keeper
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    I don't pvp. I have never been pk'd, but my first and current house is in felucca- I've never even seen a red within 10 screens of my house.

    Having said that, It is true that the only real penalty given to being red is banishment to felucca. I can see where some would like to have a sense of justice when it comes to the actions of a murderer. I can also see that this is a game and playing a murderer successfully, beyond being its own reward, should come with a little respect.

    I was wandering around Yew prison the other day. I had never been there and thought I'd have a look. I noticed a prison wagon parked out front. Wouldn't it be cool if you could capture a red and he had to be transported in the prison cart to the prison by a super mob Britanian guard? You could have a gang ambush the cart on the road somewhere and if you kill the boss you free your comrade. If you can't kill the boss or your mates don't show up to break you out you get delivered to the prison and do 24 hours of hard labor.

    By the way, my idea of hard labor would be to have the murderer locked in stocks in a random trammel town so people in trammel could taunt and throw vegetables at the offender (think snow balls that look like rotten tomatoes).

    The account owner could log in to the character and could speak, but would be unable to move or act in any way for the twenty four hours he is on display in Trammel.

    That would be fun

    One thing I can say about a red pk, at least they are up front about it. I can respect that.

    Blue pks who prey on other blues using game mechanics and exploits to circumvent the spirit of UO are the true villain in this game.
     
  30. Merion

    Merion Lore Master
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    tl;dr

    but anti-virtues and gargoyle virtues would be cool!
     
  31. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    since man is viril and gargoyles gargle we could call them Garyltues.
     
  32. Merion

    Merion Lore Master
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    are you drunk or something?
     
  33. Kayne

    Kayne Guest

    Nice ideas here. Like the fact Luna and Umbra are mentioned given that Luna is the paladin town and supposed to be virtuous by nature and that Umbra gets mentioned as being the opposite and home to necromancers.

    I think that maybe its about time they re-implemented the system long forgotten that did allow a red into Ilsh and a trammel ruleset. It was in the game before and it would at least give reds access to some of the areas they MAY wish to get to.
    I can't speak as to whether a red would wish to enter Ilsh as I don't know
     
  34. iamSnippa

    iamSnippa Journeyman

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    Deceit: should be gained by some form of disguising yourself... not give you an ability to disguise yourself.

    Timidity: Should be non-combat related.

    Bigotry: This is the opposite of Compassion right? This should somehow either be gained or grant an ability that affects only the character's race... but could possibly affect other players of the same race.

    Covetous: To covet is to desire something that belongs to another. This would be gained through stealing and have some sort of benefit to stealing.

    Shame: Could have something to do with Karma. (possibly something great for necromancers... and would affect necros, thieves, and murderers the most)

    No idea on the others.
     
  35. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Making a Felucca expansion would fail. How do we know this? Because Felucca is under-populated as it is now (evidenced by the fact that the team keeps making more and more incentives for people to go there, why make incentives for something folks already had an interest in) and Siege and Mugen, the Fel shards, are the least-populated shards (according to a long- and conveniently-deleted Draconi post).

    It is also not reasonable that people who continually insult Trammel and profess to have no interest in it will take the lack of ability to get there and deem it a "penalty." Not a penalty if you'd rather not go there to start with. By definition, going red is voluntary.

    Felucca is very much a failed business model, a product most people no longer wish to buy, and haven't bought since there was another product offered. To offer more content to it is pointless. Neither power scrolls nor the really quite awesome content of the Primeval Lich Spawn nor the Dungeon Khaldun nor double resources nor double fame nor (effectively) greater chances at Champ Spawn Artifacts nor any of the various incentives have been enough for most players.

    -Galen's player
     
  36. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    A lot of people are proposing Anti-Virtue or Sin systems but seem to be making up names, unaware that the game's built-in theology already incorporates Sins or Anti-Virtues.

    Anti-Virtues - UOGuide, the Ultima Online encyclopedia

    *shrugs*

    I want to see them finish the actual Virtue system, myself. How long ago did it start? The idea of further rewarding their opposites, where the way the game works already does so sufficiently without the need for a formal and specific game system, is a tad disturbing.

    -Galen's player
     
  37. Kayne

    Kayne Guest

    Couldn't agree more
     
  38. iamSnippa

    iamSnippa Journeyman

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    Yeah, I knew those were there, i didn't look em up when I posted though, I took the OP I quoted as knowing them already - sigh - oh well, so scratch the 2 i commented on that aren't actually anti-virtues in the game.

    And yeah, I would love to see them finish the original virtue system as well. I was amazed after having been gone 6 years to come back and see the Humility Virtue just being implimented. Too many things left undone in the game.

    I don't really think we need any anti-virtue or chaos virtue game mechanics, but I love coming up with new ideas or helping others come up with new ideas for things that could potentially become game mechanics.
     
  39. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Have to agree with sixunder here... the only reason this game has murderers is from the people that pvp. The roleplay murderer died with Trammel. I don't try to influence your trammel game, don't try to ruin my murderous one. It was rough being a murderer then but it was fun non the less because there were people to "murder" around every corner.

    I have roughly 12 chars on great lakes and 7 of them are red. The other 5 are a sampire, 2 mules, a faction blue mage, and a disco stealth bard thing. I go red because i like killing people and dont care if they are "virtuous or not". I couldn't keep a char blue to save my life, tho i know many of you love your fricken guard zone hugging hippies.
     
  40. RuSini Neb

    RuSini Neb Journeyman

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    You know this is all perspective. The Evil man who chops you down on the battle field, is only evil because you preceive him that way. For all you know he and his fam. has not ate in a week and he is trying to get food anyway he can, even if said food is your flesh. Remember how the old games started with the cards. their are plenty of moral qualms. EVIL PEOPLE HAVE HONOR AND VALUES TOO !!! JUST NOT YOURS !!!!
     
  41. Korik Bloodguard

    Korik Bloodguard Lore Keeper
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    I'm afraid this view simply isn't rationally tenable anymore. In fact, this has been the case for close to a decade. You might get some kind of emotional reaction to being killed by another play in Felucca, but for all intents and purposes you can begin and end playing this game without ever having set foot in Felucca or one of the areas with its ruleset.

    What you're speaking about is a kind of punishment in a retributive sense - you want to punish and punish hard! If you're red it means you're a bad man! This also really isn't the case, it just means you've participated in pvp outside of factions or guild warfare, and there's nothing wrong with that - it's an integral part of the game that has been there since its inception. In fact, one could very easily argue that murderers get one of the largest rewards in the game - we are allowed to control the influx of powerscrolls into the market. Which, I think you would have to admit, is not a penalty for those doing the killing.

    I think you're about 8 years too late with any argument for the punishment of murderers, but my guess is you simply want to interact with it on an emotional basis.

    Now to the OP:

    I'm not sure Chaos as a virtue would suit murderers. While Uvtha rightly points out that chaos isn't a virtue per se, like Lord British's system of virtues, it is more an ideological counterpart to his system. Based on freedom and individuality, chaos represents a distancing of the self from the cardinal virtues of LB. In this way, chaos isn't something which could be invoked, it's more like the act of revoking virtue itself and focusing on personal choice and freedom unguided by a system. (Think Sartre's existentialism if you want to be srs about it)
     
  42. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Oh duh, why didnt I think of that. Good call.
     
  43. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    There aren't any specific cannon names for the anti virtues. I was just using the ones i found on wikipedia.
     
  44. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I don't see why everyone has to play a "good" character. And ideally id like to see the rewards from the anti virtues having a down side incorporated into them, as the price you pay living on the evil side of life.
     
  45. Korik Bloodguard

    Korik Bloodguard Lore Keeper
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    Do you honestly think that the human beings sitting behind their keyboards pressing buttons which influence another person's characters are by definition dishonest, cowardly liars?

    You're conflating engaging with a designed system in this game - nonconcentual pvp - to wrongness.
     
  46. Korik Bloodguard

    Korik Bloodguard Lore Keeper
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    Sure, along with 30-45m in powerscrolls and a wasted character slot :)

    Zero opportunity cost! Totally free! You even get a free character rename!
     
  47. Kayne

    Kayne Guest

    There are in terms of UO which is what Galen was referring to.

    Shame
    Deceit,
    Wrong,
    Despise,
    Destard,
    Covetous,
    Hythloth,
     
  48. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    lol for sure. Unless it helps me pvp or makes me look cool (anyone else sick of robes?) i really don't care much =/
     
  49. Mirt

    Mirt Certifiable
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    Actions have consequences and in UO becoming a red means no virtues for you and you’re stuck in fel. If that makes you unhappy, don't kill other players. Its really rather simple. Additionally a chaos virtue wouldn't really apply to red as Blackthrone originally stated it. It was more about seeing the value in anything so implementing it would be pretty difficult, and again by its own ethos it would have to be available to everyone.
     
  50. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
    Stratics Veteran

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    It would be - make a red charactor and it is not available to you. Should your virtues be applied to murderers? Am I not honorable because I fight people in fel?