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Chivalry changes

Discussion in 'Archive of Previous Tests' started by Storm, Jun 22, 2011.

  1. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    CHIVALRY
    The way chivalry and abilities work has been revised so that the effects, and durations now place more emphasis on skill level rather than just karma. In cases where Karma is evaluated, it will provide a modifier to the chivalry skill factor. This means that chivalry will provide a baseline for the power or duration of the effect and karma will either increase or decrease that baseline. In order to achieve the highest possible levels, both skill and karma will be required.



    Divine Fury:
    Bonus effects and stamina regeneration from divine fury now scale based on chivalry skill and karma. Stamina regeneration from divine fury is no longer a full refreshment, but rather a set amount of stamina.

    Cleanse By Fire:
    Cure chance for poison has been updated.

    Enemy of One
    Enemy of one has now been changed to a Spell Toggle. You can remove the effect before the duration expires by recasting the spell. (Recasting while the spell is in effect will cost 0 mana and 0 cast time)
    The Damage bonus will now Scale based on Chivalry Skill. Duration Will Scale with Chivalry and Karma
    (PvP)
    Enemy of One will now work against Players and Pets. The damage increase cap will be significantly reduced and apply ONLY to the player or Pet being attacked. Damage received from all other sources will be increased by 30% while this ability is in effect versus a player or pet. Duration is capped at 8 seconds for PvP.
    Remove Curse
    The difficulty of successfully removing curses now scales with the level and number of curses in effect in addition to factoring chivalry skill and karma.

    Consecrate Weapon
    Consecrate Weapon no longer guarantees damage against a target’s weakest resist. Concecrate weapon now provides a scaling chance to do damage against the targets weakest resist type. At 90+ Chivalry, consecrate weapon will also offer a damage increase in addition to optimal damage type.
     
  2. PaithanTheElf

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    Anyone who is complaining about chiv needs to realize this has been needed for a long time. With necro, if I have low karma, do I only need 50 necromancy to cast all my spells? No. I need full necro AND spirit speak. Chiv users should be thankful that there is not another skill tied with it like its counterpart (necro) has. So be thankful you got to use a skill at such a cheap cost of only high karma for so long.
     
  3. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Couldn't of said it better
     
  4. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    ok, let's try to be constructive.

    1) consecrate weapon:

    The effect is now reduced, the duration still the same.
    Should be scaled like curse weapon now (up to 30 seconds instead of static 7)

    The buff icon is now a must in order to know the chance to hit the lower resistance and the damage increase.

    2) divine fury

    The duration should be increased to 25 seconds (scaled like consecrate weapon) and the DCI malus should be scaled: low chivalry/karma = -20%, top chivalry/karma = -5%

    3) enemy of one

    Since now has a toggle remove the duration like protection, ecc...
    The malus of +100% damage from other monsters than the selected one should be scaled with skill/karma up to -50% at top values


    4) Since now we have to reach 120 skill, give us a new spell like for the necromancy vampiric embrace level.

    I suggest a spell that prevents the animate dead on corpses (maybe an area spell like the bardic ones that affect all the corpses around you up to N tiles based on skill).


    5) Karma fixes:

    - When we are in party the karma gained should not be reduced
    - Heartwood quests that do not reward with a strongbox should reward with karma (since the items are low level and useless)
    - Kill red players should reward with a high amount of karma, kill a blue player should remove a high amount of karma.
     
  5. Talashar

    Talashar Guest

    Do we have any good numbers on the Consecrate Weapon and Enemy of One scaling at the 5 points in chivalry? I'd like to see a cost/effect ratio but i'm at work and cannot mess with the TC as of yet.

    (By 5 points i mean starting at 60 up to 100 so, 60,65,70 etc...)
     
  6. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Nice suggestions, you are definitly onto something with the divine fury thing, probably should scale that dci reduction and possibly the amount of stam by karma/skill.
     
  7. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    well is around 50% with 65 skill so increasing the time is the only way to get a usable effect.

    the stamina seems already scaled, and the amount is around 50 with 65 skill and 5k karma

    maybe adding stamina leech instead of a static amount of stamina would be better at this point....
     
  8. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    Chivalry abilities are scaled to 100 Chivalry.

    120 Chivalry and High Karma will provide effects in excess of former levels.
     
  9. Talashar

    Talashar Guest

    Thank you Log! That was just the sort of answer i was searching for!
     
  10. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    100 chivalry and how much karma? since now we can see the numbers, it could help to understand... :)

    Actually the top karma used for chivalry was 20k...
     
  11. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    All of my chars on production use 70 chiv. I understand the sampire/wammy nerf, but for regular dexxers w/o bushido or necro this change is going to feel pretty crappy (even though PvM damage is way too high right now). My suggestion is to penalize chiv more so if the person also has necro.

    Current Test: All results @ 70 Chiv w/ Glorious (11,363)
    Proposed Test: All results @ 70 Chiv w/ Glorious Lord (18,579)
    (note the difference in karma)

    Divine Fury
    --
    Current: 10% HCI, 10% DI, 10% SSI, -20% DCI, 19 seconds, full stamina
    Proposed: 12% HCI, 15% DI, 10% SSI, -20% DCI, 17 seconds dur, +50 stamina

    Consecrate Weapon
    --
    Current: Around 9 seconds and a 100% chance of finding the lowest resist
    Proposed: Around 8 seconds and I assume a 70% chance of finding the lowest resist?

    Enemy of One
    --
    Proposed: +50 DI, 195 seconds
    Current: +40 DI, 175 seconds (love the toggle!)

    The consecrate change is going to kill leech, and I mean, I can do over 250 damage on my thrower or ABC archer, so I can understand some of these changes with regards to sampires, wammies, throwers, and archers. But people are glossing over the healing changes.

    120 Swords
    120 Tact
    120 Anat
    120 Heal
    120 Chiv
    120 Focus

    Problem is you can't fit Magic Resist, but with this template you get +40 SDI bonus as well, haha. Not sure how that would ever work on a dexxer template but still. How about if 100 focus gave chivalry +10% SDI or something, like an inscribe for chiv? ;P
     
  12. Zero Day

    Zero Day Guest

    New Character on Test Assuming 0 Karma since i havent killed anything:
    30 Chiv
    Divine fury + 7 HCI, + 9 DI 5 SSI

    50 Chivalry
    Divine Fury 9 HCI 12 DI 5 SSI
    Enemy of one: +13% Damage to Target (Monster)


    65 Chiv
    Divine Fury 10 HCI 12 DI 5 SSI
    Enemy of one : 24% Damage to Target

    80 Chiv
    Divine Fury 10 HCI 12 DI 10 SSI
    Enemy of one: 35% Damage to Target


    100 Chiv
    Divine Fury 12 HCI 15 DI 10 SSI
    Enemy of one: 50% damage to target

    120 Chiv
    Divine Fury 12 HCI 15 DI 10 SSI
    Enemy of one: 64% damage to target

    I'll test Success rate with higher karma and Consecrate later if I get the time.
     
  13. Nimuaq

    Nimuaq Lore Master
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    Exactly my findings on EoO for PvM, Enemy of one DI is roughly calculated with this:

    EoO DI Bonus (for PvM) = ( (Skill - 30.0) / 7 ) x 5

    The approximate formula above is only within ±2%.

    Also, if we will gain 13% bonus to DI with 50.0 chivalry, why do we receive 100% more damage from other monsters, it should be only twice, thus 26% for 50 chivalry, 100% for GM and 128% for legendary for PvM.

    Edit:
    120 Chiv with 18,884 karma
    Divine Fury 15 HCI 20 DI 15 SSI

    119.9 Chiv with 18,884 karma
    Divine Fury 14 HCI 19 DI 10 SSI

    So there is a +5 SSI bonus for high karma, but only at 120 chivalry?

    Logrus, can you give us the exact formulas for chivalry spells?
     
  14. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Have to agree with this. If we have to scale things then everything should fall in place accordingly. Of course we could counter the scale by allowing everyone to have the 50% damage increase at any skill level and scale the damage received based on the skill you have (higher damage taken at lower skill levels)
     
  15. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    with these changes to be fair, since chiv is considered an add-on to a combat temp combat temps should have 840 pts.

    this is stupid.. for a pure warrior we have
    combat skill, tactics, anatomy, healing, resist spells, chiv, parry..

    thats 7 skills. 720 pts cannot make this work.. that would mean you can only 120 one skill?

    840 tho we can 120 everything.
    this should be possible.. i dont see why its not..

    even with magery temps 720 is not enough, specially taming or bard temps.

    the cap needs to be increased to 840.


    if you say its to protect temps that have combat and magery we already have that.. its mage weapons..

    if you say its to protect temps that have 2 combat skills, who cares, you can only use one at a time anyway..

    if you say its to protect temps with 2 mage skills.. um, i have a mystic mage.. so already happening.. oh and he holds a mage weapon..
     
  16. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    I think the main question we have to debate is should consecrate be nerfed like it is with the proposed plans. It's the only significant change for PvM, while Divine Fury is significant for PvP but +50 stam @ 70 skill isn't all that bad. Can always use refresh pots and Divine is usually an escape if anything. Everything else seems fine, and now we have a reason to get to 120 chiv, which is great. Beforehand, there was absolutely no reason to advance chiv past 115. If nothing more, the toggle on EoO is absolutely great. A must have.
     
  17. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    No it doesn't :/. These plans get back to how old UO was, having to choose, and having skills that are skills and not usurped by items.
     
  18. Dan123The123Man

    Dan123The123Man Lore Master
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    Can someone tell me what the difference is from having 77 Chivalry and say 18k karma vs having 120 Chivalry and 18k karma or just the difference between 77 Chivalry and 120 Chivalry. What is the difference when your specifically casting Close Wounds, Remove Curse, or Cleanse by Fire? I am trying to see if I will still be able to get away with having 77 Chivalry if I mainly use Cleanse by Fire, Remove Curse, and Close Wounds. If I cannot get away with it then it will really mess up my template with magic resist :(.

    Cleanse By Fire:
    Cure chance for poison has been updated.

    Remove Curse
    The difficulty of successfully removing curses now scales with the level and number of curses in effect in addition to factoring chivalry skill and karma.
     
  19. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    Then would it be possible to add a chiv spell or two to the book so we don't have to depend on ggs gains? It would be nice to see more paladin-y type aoe heal spells anyway.
     
  20. Dan123The123Man

    Dan123The123Man Lore Master
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    Can anyone answer my question here ^^, it's driving me insane thinking about it while im at work. Wondering if it will mess with my template or not.
     
  21. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    What about a Tamer/Bard Tame, Lore, Vet, Music, Peace, Discord and Provocation 840 Magery need another 120 for that.

    The total magic user Magery/Eval Int., Mysticism/Focus, Necro/Spirit Speak
    , Spellweave 840 without resist 960 with.

    The old 7X GM went away with 120 PS, The cap should have been raised back then to 840 but it was not and we all made do and we will do it again.

    My current Tamer/Bard
    Tame-120
    Vet-120
    Lore-120
    Music-120
    Peace-120
    Disco-120
    Magery-108
    Total-828
     
  22. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    I haven't had the chance to test this with all the other stuff but..

    Has anyone tested the effects of enemy of one in pvp? just wondering what kind of damage bonus it is giving at its highest levels.
     
  23. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Honestly, a cap of 820 on anything... allowing you to effectively jewel up to 900 or so, would allow too many really really over powered templates. This is just a bad idea no matter how you shake it.

    Just take your best, most over kill template, and add something you don't have.. resist, parry, ninja, a weap skill, taming, etc.
     
  24. Zero Day

    Zero Day Guest

    Further Testing
    Close Wounds At 0 Karma:
    JOAT:14
    30 Chiv: 15-17
    50 Chiv: 19-21 - Production With 8 Karma 23-25
    70 Chiv: 24-26
    77 Chiv: 25-27 - Production with 4775 and 78 Chiv Karma 26-29
    100 Chiv: 28-30
    120 Chiv: 31-33



    I havent had a chance to go fight stuff to raise karma and I don't know how to look at my karma level anyway(Don't have EC)
    (Added some numbers from Produciton)
     
  25. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Click on yourself and look at loyalty rating, or whatever.


    I'd be really curious to see what this stuff would do with high karma. Is there a karma gate on test or can there be? lol
     
  26. Zero Day

    Zero Day Guest

    Ah, never even knew about that loyalty rating.

    So I can confirm 0 Karma with all my testing.
     
  27. Nimuaq

    Nimuaq Lore Master
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    Close Wounds at 18k karma:
    120 Chiv: 39-40
     
  28. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    The only way any of these changes are remotely acceptable would be to add Chivalry to the list of mana cost reduction skills, as Bushido & Ninjitsu (and their support skills) already are.


    Something that the devs appear to be overlooking:

    Bushido requires Parry & a weapons skill (300 points about guaranteed)
    Ninjitsu requires stealth a weapons skill (300 points also about guaranteed)
    Necromancy, which was meant to be a general purpose skill used equally by mages and warriors, now has been relegated to a Bushido support skill - and as such, is 100 times more effective than chivalry.

    Chivalry - left hanging, as the basic paladin template doesn't have a 3rd mana reduction skill built in (just parry & weapon), especially if playing an archer, (where it only has weapon skill). Treated as the red-headed stepchild already without the abuse about to be heaped on it.

    Just because Mcfarlane Toys made the LBR action figures doesn't mean you can use one of his 12 inch Violators* on those few of us that haven't gone over to the Bushido/Necro (or Bushido/Mysticism) dark side.


    *
    Yes, he really did market the Spawn villain's 12-inch action figure in a manner parodying an existing artificial phallus of the same name and length - a sick, sick, man....
     
  29. AzSel

    AzSel Lore Keeper
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    Yes, that would've been great!

    BUFF ICON for Curse Weapon aswell!+
     
  30. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Thats pretty crazy.. basically allowing you to gheal at 4/6 casting on a high karma dexer.
     
  31. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    lol, crazy indeed
     
  32. Saint of Killers

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    Does that mean Tupac can make another comeback?
     
  33. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    This is acceptable, and a good idea in general.
     
  34. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Gheal? lol nice

    A maxed out gheal does like 55 though or something doesn't it? 4/6 120 is going to be pretty nuts though, lot faster than gheal.
     
  35. Zero Day

    Zero Day Guest


    Bushido doesn't require parry. Parry does however affect the effectiveness of Evasion, Weapon Blocking and Counter Attack.
    With the healing change A non-chivalry samurai type just got a bit more
    viable. Weapon/Tactics/Parry/Heal/Anat/Resist or Focus/Med

    Chivalry doesn't have a support skill. So why would it need to be added to the special move reduction pool.
    If they scaled Consecrate 1% Chance per point in chivalry then at 50 Chiv you have a 50% Chance of hitting their weakest resist which is every other hit.
    You heal for almost the same amount with close wounds, your divine fury gives you 9% HCI 12% DI which is what 1% difference.

    The only thing you get any reasonably comparable difference is that enemy of one gives you only 13% damage instead of the 50.


    It would be pretty funny if they made all the skills work like chivalry instead.
    at 50 Magery/Eval your mind blast does the same damage as 120/120
     
  36. PaithanTheElf

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    Mindblast damage is not altered by your eval. But I get what you are saying.
     
  37. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Did you read who I was answering? Did you read
    I was tell him he was being stupid, if you didnt get the drift.
     
  38. Hera - Siege

    Hera - Siege Lore Master
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    Something I have longed to see changed to Chivalry: Perrhaps at a real skill of GM+, that Noble Sacrifice will work on Bonded Pets.

    As it stands, NS is a pretty useless skill. Most Pallies are going to have Heal & Anat as well, plus with the reduction to 1 in everything, who is really going to use it short of a mass rez? Would be nice if it worked on Pets, then at least it might become a useful spell.
     
  39. yars

    yars Lore Keeper
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    /signed
     
  40. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    Re:

    Again, CPing from Game Balance:

    At 90+ Chivalry, Consecrate Weapon = DI
    >
    Over-Cap? Even if not.. Over-Kill?! LOLWut.. So EOO, CW.. Items.. Skills.. 1Shot Chivies now especially in Ganging?
     
  41. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Actually you can use just 60 and never fail oath, corpse, omen, and pain spike.
     
  42. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Logrus - with the changes to EoO and Consecrate, will these allow you to exceed the 300% DI cap?

    Just curious as I plan to revamp my guys.
     
  43. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    No they will allow you to reach the cap without using items though.
     
  44. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    Or at least get closer to the cap that is.
     
  45. Kim Li of LS

    Kim Li of LS Guest

    I would like to see:

    icon for consecrate weapon, with short duration it is very hard to judge when it stops, yeah you can listen for the noise-i think- but i play with sound off and have for years. This would allow people to know what the scale looks like

    A) add bonus ssi (div fury) for civ over 100:

    110 chiv 15 ssi
    120 chiv 20 ssi

    B) reduce dci penalty:

    100 chiv -15
    110 chiv -10
    120 chiv -5

    maybe some combination of A and/or B
     
  46. Klapauc

    Klapauc Sage
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    First , i think the changes to chiv are not really a nerf for most sampires / wammies. There are many solutions to deal with those chiv changes, and the power of those templates will practically be the same as is was before. At least for the veterans with good gear.

    But, together with the changes to lightning strike, this will hurt the newer players with 700/705 cap and less then optimal equipment. Probably also the few casual players uo got.
    Above changes hit my 2 weakest dexxers that i only play for fun and challenge most and leaves the other 3 real strong ones basically untouched. Strange world.

    A comment about divine fury. On a melee paladin i would not use it for the hci bonus, because the -20 dci will get me hit more often. In practice its only purpose is to refresh stamina. A char with a one handed weapon can use a npc refresh pot that doesnt cost mana at all, the poor
    paladin, because he is wearing a shield, has to pay 15 mana for it.
    On the other hand , archers and throwers can profit alot from the additional ssi they get from divine fury.
    I would like to see those effects splitted into 2 separate spells, a cheaper one that only does the refresh with a small penalty and another spell for the hci and ssi bonus that does cost a substantial amount of mana and has a bigger penalty.


    The problem with all those small changes is , there is no real incentive to take that skill to gm or legendary. Instead it is forced upon some players. It doesnt solve any of the problems a pure chiv warrior without bushido has at the harder pvm encounters, and that problem is simple missing mana because of low damage. And on top of that, you take more damage because of missing feint and evasion ability.
    As it is now, not much is given to the existing paladins. I bet the additional damage increase from consecrate weapon or divine fury counts towards the 100 di cap from items, and with imbuing out, most people have that anyway.

    What i see here is a change that requires people to put some more skillpoints into an support skill, and not more.
     
  47. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    Divine Fury:
    Max: 15 HCI, DI 20 SSI 15%
    This is subject to the 100 DI cap from items

    Consecrate:
    Max Bonus Damage: 15% @ 120
    This is not subject to the 100 DI cap from items.

    Enemy of One:
    Max Bonus Damage: 64% PvM
    Max Bonus Damage: 16% PvP
    This is not subject to the 100 DI cap from items.
     
  48. AzSel

    AzSel Lore Keeper
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    So theres no -20% DCI penalty anymore?

    Also is there a chance you can add buff icons to Concecrate Weapon and Curse Weapon? Please?
     
  49. PaithanTheElf

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    See how long those spells last with 0 spirit speak. Might as well not cast them.
     
  50. Klapauc

    Klapauc Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
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    For my sampire the solution will be to drop parry from 90 to 75 , that gets me to 90 chiv at ca. 20k karma. I feel that will be sufficient.
    The only thing i see is the 15 ssi from 120 chiv. Combined with the 20 ssi you can have from items without to much trouble, that gives the ability to use 3s and 3.25s weapons without ssi on them ( needs 120/150 stam then ).
    That would allow some interesting things.