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Chivalry overpowered in PVM.

Discussion in 'UO Spiels N Rants' started by Ribaldry, Feb 16, 2009.

  1. Ribaldry

    Ribaldry Visitor

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    How many melee/archers at champs/doom/peerless DON'T have it? Even all the sampires have it. Or at least, it's overpowered compared to any archer/melee template that doesn't have it.
     
  2. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
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    The only reason so many people have it is that it's easier to cast consecrate weapon than it is to use a different elemental weapon for each opponent.

    Apart from that, chivalry doesn't have any powers which can't be duplicated by other means.

    It can heal, but you can also heal via concentration, spirit speak, healing skill, magery, or leeching
    It can cure, but you can also cure via potions, magery, healing
    It can remove curse, but you can also remove curse via apples or faction bandages.
    It can give you 50% damage against an opponent, but you can also get extra damage through perfection, items, lightning strike or slayer weapons.
    It can restore stamina, at more mana cost than a refresh potion
    It can make you swing faster, but with a fast weapon, do you really need that ability?
    It can push monsters away from you, just like running away
    It can damage everything around you, just like skills from weapons, necromancy, spellweaving and magery
    And finally, you can ressurect a lot of people at once.

    So um... what's the overpowered bit?
     
  3. weins201

    weins201 Certifiable
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    If you dnt have it on your PvM Arcerh Temp your kinda a genius arn't ya:scholar:
     
  4. rwek

    rwek Guest

    well, you can get almost all of that for 70 points.


    BUT>....glad one skill is worth its points. I like chiv.



    3 times I have tried spellweaving. Now thats a waste of 100 to 120 points.

    I'm not saying there are not some good spells, but for 100+ points...hurm.
     
  5. All templates vs. Monsters are over-powered.

    Name one that isnt.

    Okay herding. Besides that.
     
  6. Odin of Europa

    Odin of Europa Lore Master
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    Camping.

    Forensic Evaluation.

    Do I win a prize for two? :mf_prop:
     
  7. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    In all fairness, if we want to compare chiv in conjuction with a weaponskill, we should compare it to other casting skills used in conjunction with weaponskills as well. Ie magery, spellweaving, bushido, necro, ninjitsu.

    Viewed from that light, different people will think that different combinations are overpowered at different times.

    Similarly, if you were to compare an archer to an archer mage, the archer mage will be overpowered.

    Chiv is no more overpowered than the other combos :)
     
  8. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Herding is an immensely useful skill, esp a stealth herder :D
     
  9. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    One of the developers hinted a while back that chivalry provides too many benefits for the amount most people invest in it. That means it's probably slated for a nerf. I wouldn't worry about it much unless you are just a dev in disguise and trying to start a discussion.

    Edited to add: I guess I should have said, "....unless you're a dev fishing for information about how people allocate their points to chivalry." I've grown so cynical that when I see developers making posts asking for comments and discussion, I figure the dice has already been rolled, the changes are set, and the only point of the thread is to make us feel like someone asked for our input.
     
  10. The problem is the Devs got away from complimentary skills to create max benefit.

    I agree chiv by itself at 100 (and you only really need 75) is too little of an ivestment for the benefit.

    When they finally make 100 chiv mean something as in increased healing, increased damage scale based on achieving 100. That is 75 chiv is 25% less effective then 100 chiv.

    Add in 100 focus as the compliment to chiv 100. Now you need 2 100 skills to get maximum benefit. Chiv still works. Just not scaled to whatever.

    But everyone will cryout. Why must I have focus to max my 100 Chiv. And there lies the issue.

    A lot of nerfing would be unnecessary if hybrid templates had negatives. Use the chiv example above as the example.
     
  11. Nestorius

    Nestorius Guest

    When I used to play him, I had a pure samurai non-chiv warrior. Chiv was a waste of mana... if you knew what you intended to fight, you could pick the appropriate weapon. After the evasion nerf, I kind of got discouraged and moved onto a tamer.
     
  12. Go cap your DI at 100%, train your swords/anat/tacts up to 120 (get your 300% DI cap) and bam you wont need chivalry or slayers.

    How is chivalry over rated when it requires active combat in melee (aside from archers) when every other class is distance based wh**ing the spawn from behind para fields.

    It is not over powered. Get over it or use it.
     
  13. Splup

    Splup Guest

    Problem is that concwep, divine fury, enemy of one, which you Compare to others, COMBINE with them. I could get a vermin slayer tally, repond slayer wep, over 180 stamina, 100% dmc in etc. to my armor and go shooting Barracoon, but by adding 60 chivarly to my temp I would still make 50 % more damage then before.
     
  14. Borric

    Borric Seasoned Veteran
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    QFT - That says it all.
     
  15. WildWobble

    WildWobble Sage
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    I beg to differ on this one!!

    Herding used with tameing and hide stealth and many other combo's with a little prep time = BEYOND ANYTHING YOU CAN IMAGINE PVM
     
  16. christy1221

    christy1221 Slightly Crazed
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    begging

    cooking- well with the exception of beating a monster with my frying pan :D
     
  17. Check the OP post count... this seems to me to be another among several recent troll attempts. Much ado about nothing.
     
  18. guum

    guum Guest

    The problem is that Chivalry is basically mandatory for all physical damage-dealing templates. This is complicated by the fact that those templates are just barely powerful enough with chiv -- if Chivalry were nerfed, physical templates would, for the most part, suck. Transfer some of the benefits of Chivalry to either the primary weapon/defense skills or other complementary skills that could reasonably be taken instead of Chiv.
     
  19. Ribaldry

    Ribaldry Visitor

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    All with 70 skill. Gee, I don't know, what could be overpowered there?

    For comparison, a mage with 70 skill will still fizzle marking a rune over 50% of the time. A necromancer with 70 skill won't be able to even cast poison strike reliably yet.

    Again, how many archers/melee WITHOUT chiv do you ever see near high-end PVM? None.
     
  20. Hanna

    Hanna Guest

    It can heal, It can cure, It can remove curse (The very nature of the holy warrior)
    50% di against an opponent (lowers you defences alot against other monsters)
    Restore stamina (lowers your defences)
    swing faster (lasts about 2.5 secs and lowers your defences).
    It can damage everything around you, for a small amount and so can just about every other template.
     
  21. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
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    You started out ok there, adding details to your extremely vague original post. You pointed out that it isn't chivalry in-and-of itself that's overpowered, but rather the lack of skill it takes to gain all the benifits of chivalry. Although, you can cast all of the important chivalry spells at 55 skill rather than 70.

    But then you go and blow your whole argument by saying there isn't any high end PvM without chivalry. And this after just last night I helped kill Paroxysmus with a group of warriors where I was the only one who had chivalry on the template. So the number is very clearly more than none.

    Still, good for you for adding the appropriate detail to your complaint.

    They're working on it.
     
  22. Ravahan

    Ravahan Guest

    rplfc

    A lot of the deal with the low post count is due to stratics deleting usernames after so long of inactivity. Mine is one such.

    I 100% totally agree with the OP. That being said, most of my dudes that have a weapon skill have chiv... Why? Because, for 80 points, its a whole WHOLE lot 'o bang for my buck. The issue is not how powerful chiv is, its how much more powerful it makes everything else.

    I have a necro/pally/bushido archer. I can sometimes hit Hiryus for 300 damage with my horselord, while simultaniously leeching 60 hp from vamp form. I don't need focus for stamina regen, because when I run low I just pop Divine Fury. This is what's overpowered, combining chiv's 50% DI and auto-best element with perfection or lightning strike, or the necro forms/curse weapon (though that is at least a difficult juggle to make, since duration of pally spells is karma based).

    I would love to be able to take chiv off of some of my chars, but its just too damned nice. It'd be like purposefully using a slayer with just the regular GM +35% DI vs using something like that fancy new Dragon's End.
     
  23. Smokin

    Smokin Guest

    This is not true, because your are at the di cap so you don't need chivalry and the 50% would do nothing except making you be damaged more from other things.
     
  24. Ravahan

    Ravahan Guest

    Perfection is on top of all the rest. Trust me when I say is stacks.

    I have, in the hiryu huntin' set, Strom Grip (20% DI), Essence of Battle (30% DI), Horselord (50%DI) to hit my 100% on gear DI, then I have 107/110 tactics, 110 anat, EoO, and perfection. Add to that lightning strike will occasionally do direct damage (no defense) with a frequency depending on your bushido... and this direct damage IS modified by EoO/slayer/DI gear.

    I can promise you from watching my damage go up with EoO and the above gear/skill setup with each consecutive hit, that perfection does stack.
     
  25. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Magery is the most useful PvM skill. I'm not even addressing PvP for the moment, because that ain't what the thread is about.

    Also consider that Bushido's equivalent of Enemy of One, the Perfection bonus, comes without a major disadvantage of Enemy of One: Other stuff doesn't do more damage to you when you have Perfection up, it does when EOO is up.

    Also consider that Bushido has Lightning Strike/Critical Hits. Big damage.

    Also consider the defense bonuses of Bushido.

    Hell, on LS, Chivalry-dexers without some other skill like Bushido are, a friend once told me, "a dying breed." I used to get laughed at for not having Bushido.

    So yeah, somehow I don't think it's Chivalry that's the issue....Remember when AoS came out and Chivalry was laughed at in some quarters, even in PvM?

    -Galen's player
     
  26. Dol'Gorath

    Dol'Gorath Grand Inquisitor
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    There's no such thing as a pure template since AOS. Pickup Chivalry or Bushido and move on.
     
  27. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Pickup Chivalry or Bushido and move on.

    Pick both up... it doesn't hurt.
     
  28. lucitus

    lucitus UOEC Modder
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    I think Chiv is too strong in low skill level, with 60 - 70 chiv you can do nearly everything, this isnt good, there should be powerfull spells in the high skill level.
     
  29. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    People keep saying that....I have GM Chiv, though.

    Am I wasting skill points?

    -Galen's player
     
  30. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    I run at 75 Chiv... does about everything I need it to. I can't spam Holy Light as effectively (it fizzles quite a bit), but Consecrate, Close Wounds, Sacred Journey and Enemy of One do just fine. I run 80 Bushido on top of it and the combo of the two is just... nice.

    Had to drop Resist for the template, but the way resist is right now in PvM is nigh useless anyway.
     
  31. Rotgut Willy

    Rotgut Willy Seasoned Veteran
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    Don't Chivalry and Bushido both require a weapon skill in order to be effective? So technically you have to invest 200-300 points in it.

    I love what Chivalry and Bushido have done for warriors. "Back in the day" everyone played a mage or a tamer. Now we see a good mix that also includes warriors in high end PVM.
     
  32. When I show up at champ spawns (Granted I haven't done the Fel ones yet - try PvPing on 28.8 dialup or on satellite), I see three templates:

    Bards - Usually Legendary Music / Legendary Discord / Legendary Provoke / Mage / Med / Eval
    Tamers - Usually Greater Dragons or Rune / Mare combo
    Stealth Mages

    Are people on Sonoma really behind the times or something? I'd figure champ spawns would be where people bring their best templates.
     
  33. Ribaldry

    Ribaldry Visitor

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    Gee, I must have imagined the Consecrus Arma spam over the head of every melee and archer in Doom for the last 6 years, because this one guy on Stratics says he was the only chiv in some group the other night.
     
  34. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Whoa there, let's take a deeper look at chiv and magery at 70 and compare apples to apples.

    1) close wounds
    The equivalent in magery is heal/g.heal. All can be cast at 100% success at 70 skill. Close wound restores 4-24 damage, mini heal restores 8-10 damage, g.heal restores 29-38 damage. Is close wound overpowered? Nope.


    2) cleanse by fire
    The equivalent in magery is cure/arch cure. All can be cast at 100% success at 70 skill. Is clean by fire overpowered? Nope.


    3) remove curse
    No beneficial equivalent in magery, but it does have the reverse - clumsy, feeblemind, weaken, curse and mass curse. Since remove curse counters the above spells, we'll compare that. Success rate for mass curse is 80% at 70 skill. Otherwise all the rest of the spells can be cast at 100% success. Is remove curse overpowered? Nope.


    4) consecrate weap
    No equivalent in magery that requires a weapon to cause more damage. But for causing different kind of elemental damage without weapons - mages have magic arrow, harm, fireball, poison, lightning, mindblast(80%), energy bolt(45%), flamestrike (10%). Besides those in brackets, the rest of the spells can be cast at 100% success. Is consecrate weap overpowered? Nope.


    5) sacred journey
    The equivalent in magery is recall. Both can be cast at 100% success at 70 skill. Is sacred journey overpowered? Nope.


    6) divine fury
    No equivalent in magery that restores stamina, but stamina potions does the same thing (in theory, create food and eating can bring you back to full stam). For spells that affects attack speed, agility and bless will buff dex, which in turn affects swing speed. Perhaps not by as much as divine fury, but no dci penalties.
    Besides swing speed, there is also 2 more noteworthy spells that affects casting speed. Protection and arch protection. Instead of increasing the casting speed, it decreases it. However, it makes casting non-interruptable. All can be cast at 100% success at 70 skill. Is divine fury overpowered? Nope.


    7) dispel evil
    No equivalent in magery that pushes mobs away from you. However, there are several spells to keep mobs at bay - teleport, wall of stone, fire field, paralyze, energy field. Is dispel evil overpowered? Nope.


    8) enemy of one
    No equivalent in magery. However, at 70 skill, you'll fizzle just slightly less than a mage casting mark in your earlier example. You can spam enemy of one until you succeed, mages can spam mark until they succeed. Chiv has no equivalent of mark. Is enemy of one overpowered? This is the trickiest one to answer, since its effect is a bit unique, just like mark. Would you consider mark overpowered? Or instead of comparing spells that boost DI, what if we were to consider spells from other classes that allows you to deal greater damage to an opponent - there's the necro's corpse skin and evil omen. Is enemy of one any more overpowered than these 2 spells (they require only 20 skill to cast btw)? Taking into consideration of the minimum skill, I would say no.


    9) holy light
    The equivalent in magery is earthquake. It's more powerful and has longer range, but to cast it at 70 skill, a mage needs to use a scroll. Then again, at 70 chiv, you'll fizzle holy light like crazy. And it's the weakest AOE spell there is. Is holy light overpowered? Nope.


    10) noble sacrifice
    The equivalent in magery is resurrection. Similar to holy light, to cast at 70 skill, a mage needs to use a scroll. Also at 70 chiv, noble sacrifice will fizzle very badly. The minimum skill required is 65. Is noble sacrifice overpowered? Nope.


    However, this still raised a couple of other questions. Are the other templates underpowered compared to warriors in PvM? Because paladin warriors normally need to stand toe to toe against the mobs, they need advantages to allow them to do this. Better damage output (chiv, necro), better tanking (bushido, ninjitsu). I think each template has their own advantages.

    Next question, another area of contention is that all of chiv's spells can be cast at 70 skill. Instead of looking at it as all it's spells has requirements that are too low, what if we add an angel summoning spell at 80 skill and an avatar transforming spell (5/5 fly/trample anyone?) at 99 skill? I mean chiv has only 10 spells. That way people will have a good reason to get more than 70 chiv.
     
  35. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    Fine examples! Let's not forget for this one:

    You are also taking considerably more damage from anything you haven't EoO'd. And if you are using an archer to do champ spawns you are already at a disadvantage for working the spawn.

    This thread shouldn't be about why chiv is overpowered. It should be about why most other skills aren't as good.
     
  36. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    The biggest problem with Chiv is that there is nothing past the 75-80 mark that makes it worth the point investment.

    As noted above, everything Chiv does is support-based and requires a pretty stacked melee template to be useful (Weapon/Tactics/Anat/Healing/Chiv which is 470 - 550 points base depending on distribution (4x100 + 70 through 4x120 + 70)).

    Consecrate is the bread and butter, but is short lived.
    Heal/Uncurse/Cure are costly in terms of mana on a cramped stat template and interruptable
    EoO is VERY situational and can get you in a LOT of trouble (especially in mixed company with a slayer weapon)

    Instead of nerfing what Chiv does now, what we need is something for Chiv to do beyond the 70 skill point that makes it worth while to invest the 30 - 50 more points into the skill for full effect.
     
  37. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    Consecrate armor?
     
  38. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    Oh here's a good one... Shield Bash. Seems to be archer proof too.
     
  39. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    Interesting idea but it would have to last longer than 7 seconds at a time.

    An up to 5 minute armor/resist buff would be nice...

    Hmmm...

    Resist buff based on skill level, Duration based on Karma level...

    I like.
     
  40. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    Ya and maybe allow for only con weap or armor at one time... they cancel each other out... unless you are at 120 chiv... can't have both.

    I would actually love to have more spells for necro/chiv. Only different effects based on karma. It's a really unique concept. Take consecrate armor for example. If used by a <0 karma necro it becomes curse armor and lowers your enemy's resist the same% to the weapon damage type you are using. I dream too much sometimes.
     
  41. Fink

    Fink Guest

    Herding works well for bards, too.

    RavenWinterHawk, the shepherds have spoken. :eek:
     
  42. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    I am still partial to an angel summoning and an avatar form spell :D
     
  43. Ribaldry

    Ribaldry Visitor

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    Oh yeah man, you never see anyone at Doom or Peerless without 70 magery so they can attack the Dark Father by casting energy bolt at a 45% success rate. They're totally equal.

    I cannot believe you wasted the time to type all that.

    As it is, there's no reason for non-chiv melee to even show up for a boss fight. All we have here are the existing chiv people lobbying for god mode. Yeah, angel summoning. Okay.
     
  44. Hanna

    Hanna Guest

    I would use fireball - just as effective, lower sill requirements and uses less mana. It's not chivalry that's overpowered, the big damage is from the bushido templates and those doulde and tripple supper slayers.
     
  45. Mythic

    Mythic Guest

    I run a sammy axer capped at 100 DI using talis and slayers combined with perfection, no chiv, no complaints. Although with no healing, confidence and HLL are my best friends, cant take on a lot of high end casters, pity me
     
  46. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Oh, it's not a watse of time at all. I believe you are passionate about the game. Enough passion to create a new account to highlight a balance issue. I took the time to type that because I respect that.

    You are right that mages without enough magery to reliably cast ebolt won't use magery in doom. That's because with higher magery, they can cast ebolt and EVs more reliably. If there are no level 6 to 8 spells in magery, people would like leave magery in the 70s as well. That way, they don't get the FC cap penalty for having high magery.

    What I am saying is that at the same level of skills (70) magery can do almost all the things that chiv can. EoO is the only one that is unique in its effects. But if we compared chiv to necro, then we'll realize that the necro equivalent requires even less skills.

    Would you agree that each skill and template is better able to do certain things than others? Paladins are better at bosses than necros. Necros are better dealing with the lesser spawn. Same difference between tamers and bards. Each template is better at doing something. If every template does equally well at all things, there'll be no variety.

    Since one of the very valid point is that chiv requires only 70 points to play effectively. This begs a proper look to see if the case is because chiv spells have lower requirements than the other casting skills, or is the case actually because it doesn't have nearly enough spells in the higher range.

    I would think that it's the latter. Bush has 6 spells, chiv has 10 spells. These 2 have the lowest number of spells available. Chiv and necro was part of AOS. Magery and necro both have summoning and transformation spells. So why not add these 2 as high-end spells to chiv.

    Regarding your remark about only chiv melee'rs showing up for a boss fight - I am fortunate to have the time to build up different templates for different situations, warriors, mages, tamers and bards. I find different templates is really better suited in different situations, there's really no 1 template to "bind them and rule them all". While I do not deny that I am seeing more warriors, most are actually sampires. Am there was another group of people that would argue that bushido is overpowered. I personally use my stealth mage for champions. Damage output may not be as high, but I have very good survivability.

    May I enquire as to what template you are using that you feel cannot match up to a paladin?
     
  47. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    To be honest, I use fireballs against bosses too, in tandem with explosion. Esp if a necro has corpse skinned the boss. I'll switch to only fireballs when mana gets low and wait for it to regen back. I have enough med, MR and LMC equipment to offset the mana used by fireballs.

    Much more mana efficient than ebolts.
     
  48. Ravahan

    Ravahan Guest

    While I don't agree with your 70 chiv/mage post, Harlequin, as most of it seemed like a stretch I suppose my point is mainly that you get so much bang for your chivalry buck. On the one hand, that's a good thing because melee templates are already so damned cramped. On the other, it leaves a lot of room for abuse.

    I would be very happy to see there be a reason to get legendary chivalry. My very first character was a paladin/mage, and he's gone through a lot of changes since. I would love, just because that's 'him', to take him to 120 chiv if there was a reason to do so.

    I would also love some more bushido spells. 6 spells is kind of limited... And really, there's not a whole lot you can do as an archer with Bushido believe it or not. There are two useful spells-- Lightning Strike and Confidence (only for emergencies as its uninterruptable), with the added bonus of Perfection (which you can get with 50 bushido). Momentem strike doesn't work at a range, and you can't parry with a bow so the other stuff is totally useless including all the stances. I'd like to see a thing or two, possibly at very high levels, which would be somewhat beneficial to archers. Perhaps a stance that gives an increase in mana regen or some mana leech at a penalty to your resists and/or resisting spells? Just a thought.
     
  49. One of the best things about Chivalry compared to most other skills is that it is so useful at lower skill levels. Which all skills should be. How many other skills are useful at less than 100, or 120? I disagree with the OP and think that all other skills should be made more useful at lower skill levels to provide MORE diversity of templates, not less.

    As other pointed out, add benefits to increase Chivalry above 80, not take away what we already have and is actually useful
     
  50. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Yeah, some of them don't translate as well as I like as there's really no equivalent. I tried my best to use the spells that I think can are most fair and logical to compare with in these cases.

    What I was driving at is that magery/necro/ninjitsu provides alot of bang at low levels too. I am using magery to illustrate this since magery although not a specialized cookie cutter skill, is an all purpose general skill. And if you looked deeper, chiv is not overpowered. It's very focused in 1 area, damage output to a single target, that's where it excels. But it's not as useful in other areas (dealing with spawn, crowd control, survivability) against other skills that are focused in those areas.

    Every skill has their own area where they excel in and it's immensely fun to mix and match them at different levels to find your very own template that suits your game style best! :D

    I actually like it this way, not every skill needs to be at GM or Legendary to be useful.