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Choosing the right pet for PvM

Discussion in 'UO Tamer' started by hawkeye_pike, Feb 27, 2009.

  1. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    Yes, I finally brought my tamer up to 102 skill (with jewels), which opens several possibilities of pets. I tried to sort them by quality, i.e. the most powerful pet on top. I'd probably tame myself a CU Sidhe. Any feedback is welcome!

    Pet (required Taming skill)
    Greater Dragon (105)
    CU Sidhe (101)
    Hiryu (99)
    Reptalon (101)
    Dread Warhorse (107)
    Dragon (94)
    White Wyrm (96)
    Rune Beetle (94)
    Bake Kitsune (81)
    Nightmare (95)
    Fire Steed (106)
     
  2. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    Greater Dragon is great if you need to be the tank. Personally I prefer a rune beetle/mare or beetle/bake. Sheer awesome damage output. Or you can roll 2bake kitsunes and still ride a mount. Or if you have SW, summon a pixie/imp.

    Reason for the beetle/bake = Beetle will Armor Corrupt (more phys damage done against the creature) high level poison (prevents mob from healing itself) Bleed attack. Bake = Rage attack and they have a high mana pool, higher HP than a mare, good resists and cast like crazy. That and you don't need really high skills to control them effectively like you do a GD.

    A cu is nice as well... I haven't really used mine all that much due to the fact my beetle/mare/bake rock so much. I have a pretty alright GD but still haven't worked it's skills up because my combo outdamages the GD's I hunt with. I kill a LOT faster than the tamer with a GD. I'm a tamer/archer btw.

    I'd suggest having a GD in stable, cu sidhe, beetle, mare, bake. That's what I have. But the GD/Cu don't really get used. I just tamed a 4.1 and 4.2 bake kitsune on the Pet Power Calc. Waiting for them to bond and train/use.

    It's also gonna depend on who you fight with and what they bring. It's nice having a GD for the tank... depending on the monsters.

    For Peerless it's best to have a GD as the main tank for HP purposes.

    For champ spawns, I can tank most of em' with my beetle, besides Rikky is a bit tougher due to his EQ and due to the fact I vet to heal, not magery.
     
  3. uoBuoY

    uoBuoY Guest

    I wholeheartedly second this. Inmho a Rune Beetle/Kit combo produces the most damage/sec of any pet or pet group that can also tank. The special bonus is the Kit's laugh and Beetle's hiss! Great combo!

    Cus, while awesome tanks that you can ride and who will heal you, are pathetically slow at dishing out damage. Take a Cu to kill the Sphynx and you can go make yourself a sandwich or take a dump. Do the same with a Rune Beetle and a Kit and its over before you know it.

    You need to match the pet to the mob. Just a small example: a Rune Beetle (max 40 cold resist) can kill a White Wyrm (50% cold damage) easily but you will have to do a fair bit of vetting. A Cu (85 cold resist), on the other hand, will slowly kill the Wyrm but you won't use a single bandage.

    I have one or more of all the pets you listed (2 Tamers) except for Hiryu, Reptalon and Dread Warhorse and the only one of those I regret not having is the Dread Warhorse. People have said that Hiryu and Reptalons aren't as good as other tamer pets.

    I don't believe it's wise to rate pets individually. You need to consider what you're hunting and what appropriate pets you can use to fill your 5 pet slots. In other words, I would move Rune Beetle/Kit and Kit/Kit/mount much closer to the top of your list.
     
  4. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    Thanks for all the advise!
    My attempt to tame a rune beetle went awry. These beasts are quite tough!
     
  5. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
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    Heck, I even have a reptalon. They aren't as bad as people say they are, but they still shouldn't be 4 slot pets.

    The best pet for the job is very situational. For example, against a crimson dragon, you don't want to bring your own dragon, but a cu sidhe tears is up. The same goes for Rikktor. The first tamer needs to bring a greater dragon, then any further tamers need to bring a cu sidhe.

    I've been doing nearly everything with my rune beetle/nightmare combination lately. The bakes are super tanks (especially my McIntyre), but in a long fight, the nightmare just does more damage since the bake eventually runs out of mana. Travesty key collection with a beetle/mare is actually quite fun. And to think I used to do that with a greater dragon!

    Anyhow, the minimum for my stables is:
    Blood Stone (my greater dragon)
    Snarl Everwind (my cu sidhe)
    Pall Mall (my rune beetle)
    Fiona (my nightmare)
    either Aewin or McIntyre (bake kitsune)
    All of my other pets are either being held for other people or are "fun" pets.
     
  6. Aibal

    Aibal Slightly Crazed
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    QFT. This looks virtually identical to my stable. I have some other stuff for Chicken Fight Club and very situational pets, but this is the basics of it. I too prefer a bug/mare or bug/bake combo as the absolute maximum damage team. I think the mares DO hold up better over a longer fight, though in a short fight (think Sphinx for example) the mana dump of the bake is overwhelming. I don't use GDrags much, which has to do with my general dislike of them, but they have a place. You put together a stable such as this and you will have a very well prepared tamer/pet team.
     
  7. athlon

    athlon Guest

    Im no expert nor have i tested, but i still find it hard to beleive that a fully trained uber greater dragon does not do more damage than a Rune/Mare combo.

    I understand the rune corrupting the resists, and the rune beetle also having higher dex, but ....

    The greater dragon is simply going to hit more. A LOT more. My 'uber' Greater Dragon has over 128 wrestle. He is simply going to hit a lot more.

    The Greater Dragon simply hits a lot harder per hit. With extraordinary tactics and strength, the melee damage output is greater.

    The big hit - the automatic fire breath that does almost 200 points of damage per breath.

    Now, i could be wrong and have not tested it, but i find it hard to beleive the Rune/Mare combo does more damage than an single, uber, fully trained Greater Dragon.

    And of course, i wont start with defense, because this is where the well-trained uber greater dragon demolishes the rune/mare combo vs almost anything.

    I would be interested and open if anyone has tested the offensive output or has a mathematical model that supports the offensive power of the rune/mare combo vs. the greater dragon. I just have to beleive its farce.

    FWIW, my best dragon has 895 HP, over 128 wrestle with 83, 87, 54, 68, 69 resists (14 total from max). I have drags with more hp, 1 with more wrestle, and another with equal total resists from max, but overall, this one is the best i have.

    My rune beetle also has 65 phys resist and 95 poison resist. I 1 on 1 tank him with putrifier. Can 'almost' solo Dreadhorn with him - get very close but will lose him if i get poisoned 3 times in a row quickly. May try again since i now have a better suit.
     
  8. Aibal

    Aibal Slightly Crazed
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    Forget the wrestling per se, it's the dexterity that determines how fast they hit. Both runes and bakes have much higher dex than a gdrag, thus hit faster. Combine that with the fact that both can have well over 400 intel, and you are looking at two pets, with 140-170 dex, with 800+ total mana to dump. They simply hit faster/harder. Though it's not "scientific", if I disco a sphynx and sick my bug/mare or bug/bake combo on him, he lasts about 6-7 seconds. It takes the gdrag 10-11 to do the same. And that drag has 988 hps, 127.8 wrestle, 122.7 tactics, so he's no crap drag. Believe it, a good rune and a good bake will outdamage a gdrag. That doesn't mean they're better in every/all respects, but they are certainly more formidable in certain situations. FWIW.
     
  9. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    For a quick and easy comparison, take your GD and kill Swoop a few times. Now take a trained beetle/bake or beetle/mare and do the same Swoop a few times... I kill a LOT faster with the combo rather than the GD.

    With the GD I see big hits every so often with mediocre hits in between. With the combo it's a constant 25+ damage almost simultaneously, and when armor corrupt goes off, the combo does about 250+ pts dmg in mere seconds. It's insane the difference that a rune beetle makes when it lands the armor corrupt.

    When doing an Oaks spawn and we don't have a beetle there, it takes longer, with a beetle it goes by really fast.

    GD make great meat shields and if you don't feel like healing every second.

    I'm pretty sure the combo does far more damage than a GD does. On just about any champ spawn that I can use my beetle/mare effectively (minus Riktor) I'm always the top damager, I always get the skull =) The damage I do is just crazy. There's never a break in the damage numbers coming out.

    But it depends on the situation.
     
  10. The problem with saying "Oh, just go to Swoops and compare times!" as an absolute reference to pet damage is that Swoops has extraordinarily high physical resist - of COURSE the Greater Dragon is going to be outdamaged there, excepting the occasional Fire Breath. It would be like saying "Greater dragons clearly outdamage Bake/Rune Beetle combos... just see how fast a[Instert energy resist 90 monster] go down to Greater Dragons, comparatively!"

    Also, I believe the max weapon speed for wrestling is reached at or before 125 - when at full stamina, a Rune Beetle with 170 dex isn't hitting any faster than a Greater dragon at its 125 max.

    To compare pet damage, I've used the stratics combat formulas.

    Let's start with something as basic as possible - Melee damage.

    Greater Dragons:

    For melee damage, the damage range depends on your dragon's stats - a weaker one with lowish tactics will be hitting for ~95-100 at the low end, 130-135 at the high end. A high strength, high tactics one will be hitting for 105-110 at the low end, 145-150 at the high end (with 110-151 as the maximum melee damage)

    A Bake Kitsune's stat spread basically makes around 1 point of damage difference - it does 44-64 damage at max stats.

    A Rune Beetle near its max str will get 54-80 damage per swing.

    Nightmares, with their potentially high strength, can be even more impressive - a max strength Nightmare does 62-86 damage in melee.

    Based purely on raw damage, if every attack hit, a Bake/Rune Beetle matches the melee damage of almost any Greater dragon. A NM/RB combo actually outdamages it, in raw damage.




    Of course, not all attacks will hit - its a comparison between wrestling skills, is it not?

    Let's consider a target with 100 wrestling.

    A Greater dragon with 125 wrestling will be hitting such a target ~62% of the time, while the Bake/RB will be hitting ~50% of the time. hit-weighted damage, then, is thus, assuming high-end but not max stats:

    Greater Dragon: .62(105) to .62(145) = 65 - 90
    Bake/RB: .5(98) to .5(144) = 49 - 72
    NM/RB: .5(116) to .5(166) = 58 - 84


    Note: Weighted damages are "per swing" rather than "per second" - to determine "per second" weighted damage, divide all damage numbers by the swing speed in seconds (I believe that's 1.25)



    So, for purely melee damage, a greater dragon of decent stats will outdamage a bake/RB and NM/RB combo... right?

    Well, potentially not.

    Take a potential target, with roughly 70% resists across the board. A Rune Beetle's Corrupt Armor takes away roughly 20% on each resist (correct me if I'm wrong here), reducing all resists to roughly 50%.

    Resist-weighted damage:

    Greater Dragon: .3(65) to .3(90) = 19 - 27 = average of 23
    Bake/RB: .3(49) to .3(72) = 14 - 21 = average of 17.5
    Corrupted: .5(49) to .5(72) = 24 - 36 = average of 30
    NM/RB: .3(58) to .3(84) = 17 - 25 = average of 21
    Corrupted: .5(58) to .5(84) = 29 - 42 = average of 35.5

    So what percentage of the time must the target be corrupted for the Bake/RB combo to outmelee a greater dragon? We'll use the averages for this.

    The average corrupted damage times the percentage of corruption plus the average non-corrupted damage times the percentage not corrupted equals the GD average.

    30t + 17.5(1-t) = 23
    12.5t = 5.5
    t = .44

    Thus, to equal the melee damage output of a Greater dragon, a Bake/RB combo need to have the target's armor corrupted around 44% of the time.

    For NM/RB

    35.5t + 21(1-t) = 23
    14.5t = 2
    t = .14

    A NM/RB combo needs the target corrupted merely 14% of the time for them to equal a GD's melee output.





    Caveats:

    1. Not all Resists are equal, nor are they targetted equally.

    A Greater Dragon's melee attacks are 100% physical. A Rune Beetle's melee attacks are 20% physical, 70% energy, and 10% poison. A Bake Kitsune's attacks are 70% physical, 30% energy. A Nightmare's attacks are 40% physical, 40% fire, and 20% energy.

    A very large majority of targets, barring PvP, have non-similar resists, instead usually having or two much higher than the average, with perhaps one or two resists much lower than the average.

    Against something like a Greater Dragon, with on average a higher physical resist and fire resist than energy resist and poison resist, the Rune Beetle is going to really shine, as is its armor corrupt ability - a successful armor corrupt could nearly double a bake kitsune's melee damage output.

    Against something with higher energy and lower physical resist (like cu sidhes), Greater Dragons are that much harder to equal.

    2. Special abilities are frickin' hard to account for sometimes.

    BKs, RBs, and GDs have bleed attacks, with GDs hitting slightly more but BK/RB combos getting more bleeding hits overall. Bleeding ignore resists, so armor corrupt doesn't affect 'em. i don't know if anyone knows their frequency, either. The Rune Beetle has a lethal poison attack, which can do anywhere from loads of damage over time (med to low poison resist, no magery or immunity) to relatively little (high to immunity poison resist and/or magery). I've never seen a frequency for this, either.

    3. Stamina Loss isn't accounted for.

    While GDs are hitting at the same speed as BK/RBs when at max stamina, stamina loss and/or dex-reducing curses might reduce a GD's swing speed where the same will still leave the BK/RBs hitting at max speed. This changes the weighted damage somewhat.

    4. Extreme Dragon stats aren't acounted for.

    I did these calculations for a dragon with 125 wrestling (about as high as one seems to get while still having decent resists and decent stats). A designed-for-meleeing-PvPers dragon with near-max hp, near-max str, near-max int, and near-max wrestling would change these numbers somewhat.

    5. Magery and Fire Breath are not accounted for.

    Initial, unsubtantiated thoughts indicated the BK/RB and NM/RB combos will outdamage a GD's magery by a significant margin, especially when Armor Corrupt is taken into account. Fire Breath is also a very substantial amount of damage.
     
  11. RichDC

    RichDC Guest

    Cant be bothered to read your calculations because...your wrong, simple as that.

    There is no more effective team than a beetle/bake, i take down Para Ballys quicker than a GD, Para GD's Quicker than a GD...Simply they kill quicker!!!

    Yes 170 dex DOES make a difference, as many pvpers wil tell you pets dont follow the same calculations as players!The beetle/bake will dump almost all is mana, almost always, instantly! a drag hardly ever "dumps" cast a couple of spells. Its like the old WW vs Drag, GD's are Melee(therefore Great tanks)Beetle/Bakes are mages (therefore mor efficient killers!).

    End of!
     
  12. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    Ya... that post was kinda long winded and I got lost and didn't bother to read the rest...

    I was just giving Swoop as an example. I've killed Baracoon, Rikktor, Semidar, Memphitis, Lord Oaks, Neira etc etc... both with a beetle/mare and GD. Only with a beetle/mare or beetle/bake do I get the skull everytime. Besides Rikktor, his EQ hurts too much so I use a cu or GD for that.

    If you have someone to bring a GD, and whatever you're fighting doesn't have a nasty AoE spell, i'd suggest a beetle/mare or beetle/bake for just about any situation. The damage output is just uhmayziiiiiiing.
     
  13. I never concluded that a Greater Dragon kills faster than a Beetle/Bake combo. I was dealing entirely with the projected melee damage, which doesn't take into account the resists attacked, special attacks, Fire Breath, or Magery.

    If you want to say I'm wrong, make sure I'm actually wrong.

    Against a majority of opponents, yes, a Beetle/Bake combo will outdamage the GD significantly. The combination of near-equal raw melee damage, less commonly high resistances targetted, the resistance-lowering qualities of the Beetle, and the magery dumping all lead to the conclusion that Beetle/Bake will outdamage a GD against all but specific-resist foes.

    170 dex does make a difference in PvP, but that's purely based on how fast the pets move - a 50 dex pet moves slower than a 125 dex pet which moves slower than a 170 dex pet.

    That doesn't affect their SWING SPEED when both pets are at maximum stamina, however, which is the only parity between their dexes that I claimed.



    I agree with TN's concept of bringing a GD along with the RB/BK. THe Corrupt Armor does wonders equalizing the GD's damage as compared to another RB/BK team (since Armor Corrupt wouldn't stack), and the GD is an imcomparable tank.

    If you can handle the healing requirements, I would strongly recommend a Beetle/Bake or Beetle/NM combo. If you have a fellow tamer friend, though, make sure one of you brings a GD.
     
  14. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    For most champs I can tank with my beetle/mare. Some champs are little tougher due to movement though. Like Meph and Semidar. But I don't use RB/Bake for Rikky.. that's when the dragon or cu comes out.

    It's gonna depend in what you're fighting and who you're with.

    For just about any situation I love my RB/Bake. Unless the thing i'm fighting hits extremely hard or has an AoE spell that hits hard. Oaks is fine.

    Now if you can get a GD, RB/Bake + a discorder together... se la vi!
     
  15. *is training a discord tamer now*

    I can get 2 of those 3 soon!
     
  16. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    =) Tamer/disco = nasty.

    I dunno what's up... but I haven't gotten a replica in quite some time using my beetle/mare. While my freakin guildie, on a provoke tamer has gotten 2 within the last couple days...