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City Elections

Discussion in 'UHall' started by hen, Mar 29, 2013.

  1. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    So city elections. Yes I know armour refinement is a pile of crap but shut up for a minute so we can talk about this. What that you say? pvp is rubbish? SHUT UP, this is about city elections.
    So city elections; is there any way at all they can do this without just big guilds and people with 53 accounts all voting for themselves. I really don't think there is. On my beautiful home Drachenfels there is only one candidate surely for Skara Brae. Surely.....
    What's that? I tame gorillas and set them on people between the moongate and bank?! Why the very idea!
    So um yeah. If you read this far, do you think city elections will be a complete **** up?
     
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  2. Lore Denin (GL)

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    No, I think they will end up being a great addition to the game. I think people will intiailly vote for people they know, friends and guild member but as time passes, people who have good ideas and show a dedication to the region will gain support from multiple guilds.

    My character is no longer a citizen of Britannia so it would be unlawful for me to participate but if that were not the case I could see myself enjoying the system a great deal. I am also curious if the rp institutions like the High Council on GL(assuming its still active) will take advantage of the in game voting system or if fear of not controlling who is represented will cause them to be seperate...

    -Lore's Player
     
  3. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    One quick question. You only play one character?
     
  4. Vexxed

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    Ummm... well to be honest i cant remember anything about city elections. To say anything about them id have to know what the point is & the mechanics behind it.
     
  5. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    When do the attack ads start?

    This post paid for by the Britannian Special Interests Committee and is not affiliated with any party or candidate
     
    #5 Dermott of LS, Mar 29, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
  6. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    I wish you'd move to atlantic with its larger population, and bring your faction guilds with you.

    As for the city elections, i don't even really remember what that part was about, maybe someone can copy it to here?
     
    #6 Cetric, Mar 29, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
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  7. WootSauce

    WootSauce Lore Keeper
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    I only wish they would concentrate their publishes on more on content like this, so I could chose to ignore or participate (I would ignore this one, as I did city loyalty, the tier rewards for the cure, the Halloween events, etc). Instead, this group is hell bent on packing this in along with fundamental game mechanic changing updates and claiming that they all have to come together.
     
  8. Kirthag

    Kirthag Former Stratics Publisher
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    have they been reading my posts?! *gasp*
    many years ago I harped about politics in UO... uhm, right when they tried to shove a fake queen down our throats and myself and other guilds leaders of napa demanded a city vote! I screamed that the PLAYERS make the shards - so let us choose our own monarchy! Let the hopefuls campaign! Make them earn our votes!

    GGAAAAAH!

    *throws up hands and stomps off soapbox*
     
    #8 Kirthag, Mar 30, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2013
  9. Lore Denin (GL)

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    Yes, sad but true. Beta to present just play one character. No mules, crafters, or etc. I use my extra character spaces to create alts for events and scenerio's I run [a waiter working at a tavern, a thief with a hidden message in Skara, etc.] .

    There is a developed archer which was my brother's character when he was to young to have an account who can steal sigils in a bind. Other then that, I am completely reliant on others for all things in game.... in fact I just put a book in Tina Small's mail box to order some weapons and armor [in anticipation to test changes]. I gather basic resources for use and trade through town control (factions) and rarely deal in gold which I would say compared to others I have very little... [ though I recently placed a house in luna which I sold and currently have more gold then I've ever had. I'll keep that locked away until the armor changes hit and I am positive which way I want to go as far as armor then invest it into a new suit]

    Having this playstyle allows me to outfit my single character to be competative in pvp whereas if I ran multiple characters I wouldn't be able to do so. It is also a key factor building communities... I can't survive/function without others.

    If I was located on the East Coast and could get on before 12:00am PST, I'd be there or never would have left GL. My playing time is so limited now that even the members that followed me to Origin have scattered. I brought them to a dead shard to build something new and instead I went missing for months at a time and when I am here I log-in at crazy late hours. I apologize to all those who followed me with high expectations and can say I had no idea how busy my RL would get (new baby, new career, etc). Even now my increased activity here is due to an injury and I'll prob be back to missing soon.

    As far as town elections I am not sure where I read about them but my understanding was that the Cities (Virtue Cities?) would have voting stones that worked like the Faction Commander stone. People of certain standing (I am assuming this would be town loyalty) would be able to run for Mayor/town representative, etc and Blackthrone( or your shard RPC) would hold a monthly meeting with the player elected council.

    The upside is it creates another avenue for role-play, story and feedback to the RPC's and indirectly the TEAM.... The downside is somebody gets elected all they do is ask things like "Can I have your boots, can you uncurse my ring, etc, etc."

    I have no links to validate what I am saying just that is my understanding of what they are working on and it could be way off.

    -Lore's Player
     
    #9 Lore Denin (GL), Mar 30, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2013
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  10. Kirthag

    Kirthag Former Stratics Publisher
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    Why is this sad? You have my utmost respect for sticking to the single character where others didn't AND using alts for events. I'm similar - between my main (Kirthag) and my crafter (Tandy) - all my other characters are hardly played anymore as they were used in a similar fashion. My crafter is not played near as much as Kirth... created a crafter because sometimes a girl just gets tired of slaying dragons. :-\

    Kudos to you sir.


    Back to topic, now that I'm calmer.

    After coming back from a rather long break and discovering the city loyalty thing, I must admit I first thought it was a gold sink, until I realized you cannot put in gold! That got me thinking... and deep down inside hoping that this loyalty thing would be the start of something bigger to inject a bit of "character forming" for city-states. I've always said it is the Player that makes the game - the GM/EM/Volunteer/Developer teams are there to manifest the changes - much as a good D&D campaign is done. The DM makes the framework, has some alternatives based on knowledge of the players and how they will react, and the rest is free-formed. THAT is gaming - and what many a player misses from so many games. Could it be that maybe the execs at EA have realized, without players, you don't HAVE a game? What really keeps a player in a game - or moving off into another?

    Logging onto Test and I see a stone in Brit, much like the faction stones. Hmmm.... All this being done hush-hush like? I'd love it if someone has info on this so I could digest and see what is coming. I don't purport to rule over any city, but politics is something I wouldn't mind getting involved in - especially if it helps to shape the future of the shard(s) and Sosaria.

    Ayuh - wanna me to stop being the "babbling loonie" in stratics? *snickers* my best RPing was BEFORE I came to stratics - THAT is sad, but true.
     
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  11. Lore Denin (GL)

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    Sounds to be that you are exactly the type of player the system is beng designed and you remind me of what rping was once like in UO. Not that it doesn't exist today, only that it was once everywhere and now exists only in tiny pockets. Perhaps a system like this will provide the rp community a place to rally and revive these types and bring them back to UO at large.

    Good luck on your future compaign :)

    -Lore's Player
     
  12. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Sadly I see the City Elections as a new tool for griefing... Nothing more. I see it being something that will be viciously abused and make the lands ugly as sin... I see the potential for good but also for grief... sadly that potential is likely to be the dominant one. Already the EM program is devolved into a festering pile... I see this doing the same. Perhaps on a few shards I see some decent things coming about but on many I see nothing good coming of it.

    It will likely be much like the whole voting for who's house design is best.... sadly it will have NOTHING to do with who actually might do good there just who has got the most accounts/characters/gold and/or friends.

    I see more people using it as a tool to grief others than as to it's intended use.
     
    #12 MalagAste, Mar 30, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2013
  13. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    My hope for the system is that it will be, as a team member labeled it not long ago, "RP Plus." As such it'll have little interest for griefers and needlessly competitive players in the longer-term. And, therefore, the likely outcome is short-term overload of those types of players, followed by long-term settling in of those who actually care about such systems.

    -Galen's player
     
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  14. Kirthag

    Kirthag Former Stratics Publisher
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    omg Lore - you brought back some warm fuzzies mentioning the Yew Militia! At one time I attempted to make our own Yew Militia (The 5th Company of Yew) on Napa.... was my first guild actually, and boy was I proud of our little company! Despite being a "Care-Bear-Guild", we did protect newbies while they went mining in the orc cave or Shame. *sigh* them were the days! The 5th took payment by way of armor, not gold, from these young crafters we escorted into the mines. Eventually, we started riding the roads in Yew Fel... but as the griefing around the gate got worse, so too did the members leave until I was just one again...

    ~~~~

    There is ALWAYS going to be greifing in ANY MMORPG - why? It is human nature for people to "role play" as something they are not, and that includes the straight-laced geek kids becoming PKers of the foulest kind in a game. Yes, greifing will be had. Yes, abuse will be rampant. I hope you are playing the Devil's Advocate and not a Prophet though, MalagAste. You always have intelligent things to post, especially about RP-ing. Please explain HOW the voting system, and subsequent possibility of overseeing of the city/states, be used to grief? Making a statement without backup is kinda not your style...

    And even IF the "griefers" wind up with the mantle of power on their shoulders - the point is THEY ARE SHAPING THE GAME, not the other way around - and that is the entire point, is it not? "Power to the Player" I think was a motto used somewhere....
     
    #14 Kirthag, Mar 31, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2013
  15. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    It's still around on Great Lakes.

    -Galen's player
     
  16. Kirthag

    Kirthag Former Stratics Publisher
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    Sadly, I'm not on GL....
     
  17. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    That's cute and everything, but the egomaniac who roleplays the Lord of Skara Brae (or whatever) and bores to death everyone who tries to RP on his shard by making them look at his seer-blessed house and pretend they care about it? He still isn't going to touch this system, because he knows he'll be humiliated when SirPwnzAlot and his guild of random newbs win it instead.
     
    #17 KLOMP, Mar 31, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2013
  18. Kirthag

    Kirthag Former Stratics Publisher
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    Then that's his game Klomp... don't generalize all RPers by the example of one, or a few, that you know. Is bad form and you tend to get a rise from those (like myself maybe) who do a little bit more than that, regardless of the jeering, snickering, calling out and pancakes at Yew gate. So my pvping suxxors, I know that, all of Napa knows that. Not gonna let the griefers keep me from running the roads in Fel just because of that. But I do what I can to spark interest in things, and with the possibility of city-states being player governed, even moreso now I will be concentrating on the city my player hails from. I just realized, Yew doesn't have docks....

    Anyhoo...

    Better, maybe, to say, "The RPers I know won't dare, blah blah blah." Then you won't earn the ire of other RPers who actually do care about the shard they are on; not just being megalomaniacs with their pixel crack. And you definitely won't get this blabbering loonie to mention your name. Most likely I would have simply ignored it because it doesn't include me - after all I am an RPer that dares. :p

    When one loses two full houses in Luna, the pixels tend to not mean much anymore and it puts other things more into perspective; a real analysis of "Whyplay at all?" (For all those who went gaga when my Luna houses fell on both shards - hope y'all had fun!)

    And humiliation, to whit, is part of the game. If a player is so thin skinned so as to forsake participating because of that, then by all means, DON'T participate. One less whiner so far as I'm concerned... and they better NOT whine like a little kid for it is their own fault it turns out that way. Is much like not voting for the president. If you didn't vote, quit yer bitchin cos by not voting you have contributed to the issues we are faced with. Apathy is the game killer, eh?
     
  19. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Explain.... Ok... I'll try.

    I've lived in Yew since the day I started playing UO. Bought my first small tower right outside the city. I joined the Yew Militia as soon as I learned such a thing existed. I joined the Yew Town Council shortly after that starting as the Secretary of Yew. Little did I know that the Secretary is not just a glorified note taker but was infact SECOND in line under the Mayor. So when our newly elected Mayor suddenly jumped ship and vanished from UO..... I became the Mayor of Yew.

    Now I've been with the RP community on GL's ever since and have been the Mayor thru at least 6 or more elections held by the city and the Militia.... widely the RP community. Then I tried to turn over the reigns a number of times only to have someone take them for a brief while and vanish again, leaving me back into my role as Mayor.

    Now we've long held elections though honestly no one cares but the few of us who RP or back then the many..... and Griefing was kept to a minimum since we pretty much "knew" everyone that voted and would know if someone was trying to "fix" the election by putting all their alts into it.

    Now you take someone like me I have a large number of accounts and even more characters.... If I wanted to "Fix" an election it certainly would not be too difficult for me to make 90% of my characters Citizens or higher of Yew and vote myself in as whatever...

    However as many are so fond of pointing out the RP community on GL's is small... there are a bunch of very large guilds on GL's... it's possible that if one of them really wanted to be complete donkeys they could make a bunch of citizens and vote one of them into the spot and just "hold" it... or make suggestions to the EM's that were in distaste and even rather vindictive if they so desired. And it's something I could see happening to many RP communities not just GL's. If some big guild had it in for some RP group to take over their city election and really make things miserable for the community that honestly cares for it.

    There are dozens of things I'd like to see happen from all this. I for one would LOVE for the city of Yew to get a port. I mean it has a Shipwright why not a dock and port? A nice dock somewhere close to the Mill would be fantastic. I'd even like to see Vesper get a stable. Things like that. I know things like that are likely the intent of it all but honestly I could see where this could be used in a bad way as well and I'd REALLY rather not give folk ideas.
     
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  20. Lore Denin (GL)

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    Thank you for expanding on your concerns. They are both valid and reasonable.

    If the system is implemented correctly, I do not believe the types of guilds you are mentioning would be interested in griefing elections simply to grief them. Sounds like to much work and effort with little to no return.

    However if the Dev's do something silly like honor the reps with giant statues in the middle of town or give out special pixle crack items - say a plaque that says "Willa, First Mayor of Yew under the Blackthorn Regiem" etc.

    That might give guilds reason enough to grief elections and a nice thought would end up causing more harm then good.

    I think as long as they keep the system rp based its going to be to much of a hassle. I also agree with Galen that if happens, it happen early and then people will get bored and move on.

    A few things I would like to see included: (still not to many details so many these ideas are or will be, or something else is in place)

    Divide Britannia into 8 Virtue Districts and make the virtue cities the capital of each. This way players from living anywhere in the District could gain loyalty to the capital and run for the City rep position.

    For example, look at New Castle on GL. The fact that they are an rp town leaves them outside the system. I've honestly only recalled there so have no idea where its located on the map but lets just say its closest to Minoc. This would put New Castle in the Province of Sacrifice in which Minoc is the capital. All players living in that province could run as representative of Sacrifice, who's office is located in the capital of the district in Minoc. In this way the rep. would speak for all the capital and all the towns, areas within the district. This way players from a player run town or a non virute town like Cove, Vesper, etc but living within those districts can fictionally have loyalty to the capital of their district and would be within his/her right as a player to run and vote in an election.

    Sure its knit picky but as a player who ran a player town for a long time, that is exactly what we'd push for in a open system. It would allow us to maintain our player run town but give us the chance to partake in the larger system. In the case our concerns were not addressed, we'd rp in this manner and all have loyalty to Skara Brae since that was our closest Virtue City.

    In this way reps could bring concerns from areas within the province not just town specific issues and could include the greater community.

    I know people would love to have their rp towns represented but that creates issues of favortism as those would fall outside elections open to all players (what a mess it would be if a player run town lost an election to someone not from the town) plus the council might grow from a managable 8 to an unweildly 20 reps or more.

    Another thought would be to include Felucca, but use the Faction system.

    The Commanding Lord represents the King's will in Felucca and all 8 towns. Felucca is basically under a state of Marshall Law and the CL oversees its governance (protecting Britannian interests by the protecting the towns and people by assigning Sheriffs and spurring the economy by assigning Finiance Ministers).

    It would also be nice for the King and the ciizens living in Trammal to get reports on how the war is going. The election process is already in place and works in the same manner except you substitute rank for city loyalty and voting is conducted from members within the faction.

    In general people think of factions as a non rp entity but if any thing in game needs an rp voice its factions. In my experience story builds factions much more then artifacts, or changes in game mechanics. I think this would add some substance to somewhat bland outdated storyline.

    -Lore's Player
     
    #20 Lore Denin (GL), Apr 2, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2013
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  21. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    In other words roleplayers will use the system as long as it doesn't include anything that anyone else might care about.
     
  22. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Your post only makes sense if "anyone else" is defined as griefing guilds, and if "anything" is defined as things that could provide incentives to griefing guilds.

    Look at our concerns as a logical extension of your concerns about Force of Nature on the War Mace: Something that would have broken the spell for you had it gone through. The difference of course is that the identity of the cities is a matter that's rather bigger than that of one weapon. As you pointed out during the War Mace debate, if RP weren't the point, the special moves would be called stuff like "extra damage," "damage over time," and "damage to another stat." However, RP is the point.

    Same for the cities. If RP weren't the point, then each city would have several identical structures called "bank," "place to repair leather," "place to repair metal," etc.

    This exchange actually illustrates one of the central problems with this stuff. It took one line to spew ****, but takes multiple paragraphs to counter it. At an EM event it takes a few people polymorphed into trolls, standing over the EM while he's trying to speak, spamming Greater Cure and Noble Sacrifice to cause lag, to successfully grief. To actually participate in the EM's storyline, however, takes considerably more effort and work.

    To share and help to shape the identity of one of the in-game cities takes work. Our fear is that to alter that identity, in a manner that will please those who grief events, will similarly take less work and provide greater rewards.

    Really this is not an irrational concern, and a concern more would share if more thought about it in those terms. People continue to have favorite cities to bank in, other than Luna, for a reason. That reason is RP, though they might not understand it as such.

    -Galen's player
     
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  23. Lore Denin (GL)

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    I think to prevent griefing the elections you have two options:

    1) Eliminate bonus's that would encourage griefing
    2) Put in griefing controls [use that annoying master account stuff they made us all do for something and bind all accounts under your master account to one vote, that way this....
    ....Doesn't happen.

    I'm all for whoever wants to run to run rp or otherwise.
    Ara is a fantastic factioner, she was active and available, understood raiding and defending, town control, and was good at working with people from different groups. She was however NOT a role-player (she was interested in learning about rp so she maybe in rp now).

    I supportered her as Commanding Lord when I had to take time away because she was the best person for the job, and I think that's what we'd want from an election process; someone interested in doing the job of representing the town, its people and their concerns. Whether they do that in an rp style or not isn't important (at least to me and I am guessing the majority of people).

    If the purpose is to create an in game counsel representing the cities/populace then that should be the reward of winning the election - the priviliage of doing so. It definitely should not be the creation of items that encourages griefing and overshadows the actual purpose of creating an in-game player run council.

    -Lore's Player
     
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  24. Nonel

    Nonel Sage
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    Minoc is mine. I'll steal the election if I have to.

    *slaps knee*
     
  25. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    If we are thinking of the same Ara, then for my part I'd consider her a role-player, along multiple vectors.

    Not all RPers are in a formal RP community though, as it turns out, she is at the moment. But she was not always.

    She is one of the great ladies of UO, and may her and I always walk the same path, or parallel paths.

    -Galen's player
     
  26. Lore Denin (GL)

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    Ha, Well I wouldn't it against the unsavory types to umm.... influence an election.... in fact it would be a shame if that level of intrigue were left out.

    Not that you'd get caught with your hands in any such unscrupulous endeavor, but no doubt, in such endeavors your hands would surely be.

    -Lore's Player
     
  27. Lore Denin (GL)

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    Michelle and I were talking about Arabella..... but I couldn't agree more about the Ara you speak. I have the highest respect for your... friend but it sure makes walking around Moonglow uncomfortable at times :)

    -Lore's Player
     
  28. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Personally as far as RP towns go I'd rather we were able to participate in a more local way. Honestly don't give a hoot about Minoc or Vesper or Cove ....... Newcastle would like a road and port ourselves. We are loyal to our city and support our own town ..... Hence our building in our town. Something I'd like to see added to the Banner System. Be nice to have a stablemaster and Banker.

    But that's a pipe dream. I mean what's the benefit in supporting Minoc or some other town that is FAR away. (Newcastle by the way is WAY up by Wrong. It would be Located along the Western Side of the Prison Peak South of Ice Mountain and would run south from there including all the lands from there to the Kings Road to the south. Most of it's buildings are nestled in the center clearings there. It's closest neighbor would be Minoc as the Crow flies or Yew by road.

    And I do understand KLOMP's postings but honestly would a non-roleplayer care to sit on the board and just "talk" about the cities? Go and attend council meetings that are just "talking" events with the King and hold no rewards? If it were to allow maybe a Dock to be built in a town but NOTHING given except title while office was held..... would a non-roleplayer really care?
     
    #28 MalagAste, Apr 2, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2013
  29. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    And yours only makes sense if we assume that anyone who wants to be mayor because it's advantageous, and not because of roleplay, is "griefing" you. I mean let me clue you guys in: RP in this game is a shrivelled mostly-dead thing, even on mighty Atlantic. If this election system is so poorly incentivized that it can't even garner enough general public interest to squeeze out the like five active roleplayers that exist, then it is a largely unused and failed system.
     
    #29 KLOMP, Apr 2, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2013
  30. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    No, because the posts you replied to were specifically in the context of griefing guilds.

    It is awfully funny how you expected us to react when the special moves on a war mace were changed to something you disapproved of, versus your reaction to the negative potential of the system.

    Now, I have been clear, time and time again, that there's positive potential in this system as well, and that more people RP than you are giving credit for, and many other things I've been clear on. Your choosing to ignore things does not mean they were not stated, does not mean you do not understand them.

    -Galen's player
     
  31. Adol

    Adol Certifiable
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    We ran a campaign for an elected Lord Protector on Europa, with EM support. Whilst the two finalists were well known and well liked, voting for the eventual winner alone in one round was 239 votes cast...

    Afterwards there was all sorts of questions raised, and although Alaster the Mad is generally considered amusing, it showed the huge flaws in trying to run democracy in the digital realm; how many of those 239 votes were alt accounts is unknown. What they were even voting for we can only guess... I heard tales of people just wanting Alaster to take it to remove any sense of elitist Roleplay, by turning the position into one of permanent pant sniffing...

    Meanwhile, right now, and I'm sure on your shards too, there are people who always try and take the EM's seat just because they're so desperate to be acknowledged; the new Castle Blackthorn has seating for the King and the Mayors of every city. They're likely to run just to get that seat, even if griefing isn't the intention. And where it is? The whole point of roleplaying events is the roleplaying, but I don't see any intention to enforce it there, except a generic sense of hope that people will organise roleplayed campaigns to unseat the unsuitable... but if it didn't work the first time, what makes you think you can do it a second? The experience on Europa was pretty bitter and divisive, I know I was accused of just hating Alaster because I didn't win the role myself; but amongst us all, there wasn't really any sense of desire to run it all again and further frustrate the community, who really cared about each other, when no one knew just where the huge numbers of votes were coming from, or why.

    The Housing Mini Deed Competition recently also illustrated this problem; massive vote fixing and people openly buying votes on Stratics... I like the idea of town councils, but really, I don't think the community has anywhere near the depth of mature players to make it work; those players won't be getting elected even if they are common, just like the loving, creative homes didn't win the Deed Compo.

    Frankly, the best policy all around would be for the EMs to select people they know on the shard who would be happy to go with the story, and run a story arc where they are constantly struggling and failing to avoid being overthrown; people prepared to help move along a narrative rather than being in it for personal gain. Sure it risks the problem of seeming Elitist again, but once more to be frank, if you're not there for the story you aren't really the target audience anyway... and if you are, you'd be well known for being so, instead of just spamming "Gimme Stuff" over and over again.
     
  32. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    While I'd surely have no problem with EM selection, as a matter of policy, remember that EMs even now are already bizarrely accused of all kinds of favoritism as it is.

    Letting them select members of the Council would not help that.

    -Galen's player

     
  33. Adol

    Adol Certifiable
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    Yes, but it's a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation. Really there shouldn't be players raised to any position of prominence as they just can't maintain any standards when they do; but if town councils are going to come in, there has to be some sort of framework to ensure it works to further, not hinder roleplaying. Not item drops. Not personal fame. Just a way of giving those who want a story to be part of a way to do that. Have Blackthorn employ a permanent Swiss Guard in the throne room that takes out and chops off the head of anyone who can't respect the soul of why everyone is there... as it is, they get slandered when they don't suck up to the immature potty mouths, and slandered when they try and develop interesting content... so may as well actually have the new King actually take authority and show Chaos isn't about mindless selfish idiocy; 3 "ghey's" and you're out, your head is in a bucket, and a new election is called which you can't enter I say!
     
  34. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    No, the post I responded to specified that if the system erected statues or gave out items then "griefers" would descend upon it. As if the system needs to be completely unincentivized so that a handful of irrelevant roleplayers can rearrange the furniture in an empty city without the unwashed masses coming in there to get items or recognition or otherwise participate.

    I find it hilarious that you even try to conflate the two. I expect the developers to create a thematically consistent world. What I don't expect them to do is excercise judgement over which sorts of players are more worthy than others. If SirPwnzAlot has more friends willing to vote for him than you do, then suck it up. Don't expect the developers to craft a system nobody else cares about so you can have it to yourselves.

    We'll see how far your magical invisible hidden roleplayers are able to go, the minute some billionaire decides "Mayor of Yew" would be a neat unique title to show off at Luna bank. Uh oh, better not let the system give out titles!
     
    #34 KLOMP, Apr 2, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2013
  35. Lore Denin (GL)

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    Is it okay if I shift gears on the topic a little....

    Basically I agree with Malag and Galen - make a system that does not encourage griefing. [Function over items]

    I am in agreement with Klomp - I like that its open to all and you shouldn't have to be a rper to run for a city and have support. There are people who play this game and enjoy things like crafting and decorating.... someone may be interested in re-theming Jhelom because they think the colors are ugly and want to re-decorate it.... If someone gets elected on that platform because its popular or just because they have tons of friends in the game, then that's how it works but at least they are running for the city not pixle crack.

    I also see Adol's point of where the community has two candidates, people might just grief one and vote for the bad one because they hate elitist pampus rpers (not saying Adol is one, only that rpers and there communities can give that impression to non-rpers whether its true, intended, accidently or false). However setting things up with 8 elections and multiple candidates might eliminate that us against them mentality.

    Okay here is where I am going with this... Is there a difference between rp espionage and griefing an election....

    Take my rp for example... Summary: Took the Ankh, Order, and loyal true Britannians to a new land to form an independent kingdom to pursue the Quest of Order. As an Independent Kingdom, establshed in Malas we developed strong diplomatic ties when Queen Dawn who was Queen of Britannia at the time. Organized the True Britannians into a coalition of Virtuous Armies from allied nations: Britannia, the Heartwood, Ter Mur, the Meer, City State of Luna, Kingdom of Lore(yes ego maniac). The Commanding Lord of TB is the elected supreme commander of the allied forces. Each nation coordaintes their armies how they see fit, the Commanding Lord just coordinates them into a functioning whole.

    Now we have the rise of Blackthorn.... Who is the anthithus of my Kingom's in philosophy and action. Currently I am commanding Lord and continuing to lead the coalition of armies to maintain Felucca under Britnnian law and authority. There has been no word from Britannia - Blackthorn, Dupre, etc- to indicate a change in policy but the chances of Lore being able to support Britannian control of Felucca (or Trammal for that matter) if it is led by Blackthornian whose views of Ethical Hedonism, and Chaos go against the Timelord's quest of Unity, Lord British' creation of the Virtue/ Order Guard Order and the founding of my own Kingdom - it his goals and views remain the same, the uneasy alliance can not continue....

    [Fiction has forced me out of Order, out of Britannia and maybe now out of TB - and maybe put my character in a position to be at war with the Kingdom he is here to save?]

    I am not into attacking people or waging war unless all diplomatic avenues have been attempted. Right now there is no game fiction about these matters since he became King so I am in somewhat of a holding pattern as well. How dumb would it be to start some underground rebellion in TB and take control of the faction and then learn Blackthorn was contacted by the Timelord and has come to the realization Lord British did when he sat the throne.

    What if our Kingdom, as a means to access the intentions of Britannia under Blackthornian rule, had one of our master spies run for election of a town as a way to sit on the council and maybe even influence policy in our Kingdom's favor... I am not claiming the candidate wouldn't have the town's interest at heart and do the job they said they'd do... I am saying they'd be a Lorian spy as well. They'd use the council meetings to test the waters on issues of Order, Chaos, and the Timelord's quest...

    Hope I didn't take the thread to off topic - basically are there legit rp reasons to undermine an election. The methods I would use would be implanting a network of spies into the town to garner support and vote. I'd only allow members in the Ministery of Investigation, Infiltration, and Acquisition [basically our Kingdom's version of the Royal Spies] to infiltrate and vote... Normal citizens, knights, etc would not be involved... if we did it right no one would know we were involved. I could see one candidate and 4-5 addition votes coming out of the Kingdom, the rest being determined by how much support that candidate would recieve from the populace at large.

    -Lore's Player

    PS: Klomp might sound like a non rper but when I met him around Ren he was a Blackthorn supporter and I always enjoyed our in game interactions. I had a special division within the Ankh of Unity called the Order of Chaos.... These people like Klomp, Edgar Allen, etc reminded the guild that Chaos is not evil, only another perspetive. That there was the possibility the course of Order was a mistake and that we must never ignore that possibility or the voices that champion its opposition. I have always supported Order vs Chaos because I agree with Lord British and Blackthorn that individuals should have a say in their destiny.... that being said, if Blackthorn continues in the Order/Chaos traditional and allows knights of Virtue to legally oppose him and his views/actions that would discourage the Unity of Shards, then he would have my support as Britannia's King.
     
    #35 Lore Denin (GL), Apr 2, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2013
  36. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    You engage, Skrag, in the time-honored argumentative style that's made you a popular lad on these boards, but that hurts your posts on a substantive level.

    The posts you were responding to were about griefers.

    Not everyone who is not in an RP community is a griefer, not every RPer is part of a formal RP community, not every player who does not understand themselves as RPing is a griefer.

    This is not a difficult concept for most to understand. Indeed, in a more-rational mood you likely would understand it quite well.

    The two issues, your war mace having Force of Nature and the issue of griefers or the like sitting on the player Council or whatever it'll be called, are in fact highly similar for the reason you cite: A thematically consistent world. One that breaks the spell as little as possible.

    The only thing in this discussion that has anything whatsoever to do with some kind of judgement of worthiness is that, yes, I feel that regular players are more worthy than deliberate griefers. So do most of us regular players. Some, such as yourself, Skrag, insist on defending those griefers, and that is regrettable.

    The real answer as to why you consider the quite comparable issues different is that you feel more-directly impacted by one than the other and hold your own preferences, needs, and experiences sacrosanct. Remember that time when you stated flatly that no one had ever intentionally hunted snow elementals, then when confronted with several folks who'd done just that flipped out that they didn't count somehow? It's kind of like that. Same dynamic. You hold something you consider true sacrosanct and remain ridiculously closed to everything else.


    We are neither magical (save of course for the fact that, like all of us, we temporarily inhabit a fantasy world for a monthly fee, but that includes you as well) nor invisible nor hidden, though many, such as yourself, choose to ignore or dislike us for whatever reason.

    You are of course correct that some billionaire may well beat us out for whatever title he or she deems interesting at that moment, or for that matter the GM of some griefing guild.

    The former may well be more of a RolePlayer than you find it convenient to give him credit for. Such is, as stated, my experience: That more people RP than ever understand themselves as such. (There's really nothing pompous about this statement, and for that matter nothing particularly pompous about RolePlayers. We've just had enough people such as yourself, Skrag, keep saying it over and over again until too many people believe it.)

    The latter will be regrettable if it happens, but there's really no good reason to reward it either. Though you might like it, that doesn't make it good for the game. Rather like how you've argued, correctly, that the rampant PKing and thievery pre-Trammel were good for some but not good for the game.

    Really, Skrag, I don't know why you keep letting your hate get the better of you. 'Cos that's really all your arguments on this issue are at this point. No substance, all rage.

    -Galen's player
     
  37. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    More railing against these mythical "griefers" of yours. Yawn. As far as I can tell it's the same brand of halfwits (or let's be real, quite possibly the exact same halfwits) that run around yelling nonsense at EM events on every shard without everyone getting their unmentionables in a massive twist, but on Great Lakes they're somehow ginned up into some sort of spooky conspiracy of "griefer guilds" out to destroy the universe. I'm frankly beyond tired of hearing about it.

    I hope they design this system such that every single person in UO wishes they were mayor of something, and just let you lot deal with it.
     
  38. Kirthag

    Kirthag Former Stratics Publisher
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    Wow... I take a break for a day or two... and... wow...

    There are varying levels of RP in this game, the hardcore, the lax, and sirs, even the griefers you all so complain about are actually roleplaying in their own way. Seriously, I do not know one person in my *counts* 12 years of on-and-off-again UO that isn't playing some sort of role outside of their typical behavior that is prevalent offline. Some of the most kind-hearted people I met in UO actually turned out to be the worst kind of liars IRL. Some of the most vicious PKers are really decent people. And yes, a lot of those polymorphed trolls are just really bored kids. During my stint as a stratics reporter, I regularly went around confronted the griefers/pkers/hooligans so many avoid. They loved the attention and actually started to NOT be jackasses all the time. Some even started to really participate in the events - and we really had a blast... for a while.

    MalagAste, thank you for your clarification. Valid, precise, and something we all can think about on our respective shards, I'm sure. I've found the best way to "cure" the griefers, is just get to know those players and/or their toons. I was really quite surprised at one particular griefer on our shard who simply turned out just to not completely understand English (he is from the Philippines) and once we got to some talking, he realized his griefing of player events really wasn't all that much fun in the long run. He turned out to be a really decent kid - and my life is better for having met him (I understand Tagalog better now!).

    I gotta stop here - have some emergency site work to do.... but definitely a lot of food for thought here. :)


    Oh - Galen - there is no feature called "Like So Much Gotta Throw A Party" for posts... although I think there should be!

    Yes, we think alike, sir!
     
  39. Lady Michelle

    Lady Michelle Sprite Full SP
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    Ya I wish these griefing quilds were mythical didn't run around yelling nonsense at em events on great lakes. I was going to these em events when they first started, and because of these griefers that you claim to be mythical are so frickin annoying running around acting like immature brats I stopped going. Not sure how things are on other shards, but I do know what goes on on great lakes.
    Your tired of hearing about it then why are you responding to Galens posts, or reading them? He has every right to post what he feels just like you or I do so long as he isn't posting person attacks or things against the roc.
     
  40. whiterabbit

    whiterabbit Stratics Legend
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  41. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    You admit their existence, yet refer to them as mythical? That is a new level of conceptual incoherence, even for you, Skrag.

    It does not take anything conspiratorial to harm the game, or on a smaller level to disrupt events or hijack a player government system that may have good potential. 20 to 40 douchebags, and those (such as yourself) who find it necessary to support them on message boards, will do the trick. It is fortunate indeed that I said nothing that reasonably could be construed as describing a conspiracy, let alone anything about destroying the universe. Non-GL shards have indeed been troubled by this behavior and I've read and heard many rumblings of such.

    Your last sentence just has me scratching my head as its meaning is not obvious in present context. Anyone can "wish" anything, and indeed many of us do wish many things, and it's rather plain to all but you that it isn't "anyone" which concerns me.

    It's fairly clear that you have some kind of personal issues with various people or various aspects of the game (RP) at this point. On the warrior forum you've unleashed your rage against a former team member, over item properties and their relative worth. Years ago you unleashed it against Draconi over, of all things, the lack of use in the Magincia demon invasion of a game mechanic identical to that used in the Ophidian invasions. You have also unleashed your rage against your own Event Moderators. And, time and time again, you have unleashed it against me and against RP in general.

    *shrugs* Oh well.

    -Galen's player
     
  42. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    For what it's worth the last few events I've attended haven't been too bad; all I can do is pray it continues that way.

    I'm not optimistic but my hope is not unrealistic.

    I have read and heard rumblings that other shards have been impacted but none like Great Lakes.

    Ironically, for King Blackthorn's coronation, visitors commented on how well-behaved Great Lakes was!

    So either other shards actually do have it even worse than we do or we lucked out for that particular event!

    Great Lakes is a good shard overall, with a good mix of people and the 2 best Event Moderators around, and I'm glad I came over a few years ago.

    -Galen's player
     
  43. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Thank you.

    I've also, for many years, noticed that there's more RolePlayers than anyone realizes. Most just don't want to join a formal RP community, and the way I think that makes sense is that most people IRL don't want to get involved in the Big Picture stuff. And formal RP communities tend to want to deal with the Big Picture stuff. Plots by evil wizards, invasions, politics.... Whether it's player-driven or EM-driven, the pattern is the Big Picture stuff. And most people IRL, and therefore I have also to assume most characters in UO (be they NPCs or PCs), don't want much to do with that stuff. Kill some orcs for drinking money, gather reagents for the wife's alchemy shop, and catch some sleep. At most, when the Big Picture can't be avoided, deal with defending home, hearth, and home city, and leave the overall rush of events to the Lords.

    For some reason, the ignorant choose to paint formal RP communities as pompous. While pompousness surely has existed, more-common is that they just have characters more-interested in the Big Picture stuff.

    But it's no more, and no less, RP than the guy who worries solely or primarily about hearth and home.

    -Galen's player
     
    #43 GalenKnighthawke, Apr 3, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
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  44. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    Every shard has idiots who run around EM events spouting smacktalk and trying to sit in the Grand Poobah's chair. Sensible eventgoers slap them on ignore while experienced EMs set a podium where players can't reach, if only to avoid being obscured by dragon wings and such. Everyone gripes about it in the same way they gripe about airline food and people who change lanes in traffic without signalling.

    But only on Great Lakes are there supposedly actual... dun dun dun... Griefer Guilds™ of angry PVP doods who gather by candlelight and swear devilish pacts to yell "LOL NOOB SUX GIEV ITEMS" at EM events for an hour a month until Trammel is somehow brought to it's knees. Hisss. It's hysterical, and in all likelihood rooted deeply in the fact that it's the PVP doods (who aren't running around on gimped templates for RP purposes) that score most of the items and ship them off to Atlantic to be sold.

    Also, I don't know who Skrag is, and I'm sure a detailed examination of the relevant IP addresses will support me on this. You dig?

    No, it's your little Enemies List of people who called you a noob at an EM event. (I'm sorry I mean organized Griefer Guilds™, dun dun dun!) Yeah let's design the system around that.
     
  45. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    With the exception of the fact that you refer to, but deny, my accurate identification of you, your post, though in reply to a post of mine, bears little relationship to very much that I've ever said.

    Not much I can do with that, really.

    *shrugs*

    -Galen's player