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City Loyalty is hard for me to get excited about since cities in UO are pathetic

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Prince Caspian, Feb 7, 2012.

  1. In the Ultima games, like in most RPGs, cities are places of varied denziens, intrigue and various adventures.

    In UO, cities are nothing but shoddy supply depots. And now that we have expansive securables in our houses, and especially now that most items stack, all the cities could disappear and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. I mean really, why do you even GO to a city if not to visit a bank or get a BOD? When's the last time you've been to Jhelom or Nujelm? And why is that? Nothing's going on there.

    There's zero reason to ever buy off an NPC vendor again once you are even marginally invested in the game. Ergo, there's no reason to go to the shops.

    Invading the cities? Go for it. I really couldn't care less. Invade my home? NOW we got a problem.
     
  2. old gypsy

    old gypsy Grand Poobah
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    It's possible the Devs are trying to make the cities (and our attachments to them) more relevant. I don't know, but if that's part of the plan, I'm all for it. :)
     
  3. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    My gardener alone......

    Jhelom for naturalist.
    Ocllo for plant pots.
    Nujelm for planting green thorn to get rare seed.
    Skara Brae for commodity deeds to sell green-fingered goods.

    "zero reason" lol.
     
  4. TheVampster

    TheVampster Seasoned Veteran
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    I go to different cities to buy blank scrolls and regs. The thing I hate is some of the music for the cities were taken out of the game. I used to like the old Minoc music and the Moonglow music is cool too. The Moonglow music might still be there I think but you have to be in the right spots.
     
  5. Hell's Ironworks

    Hell's Ironworks Seasoned Veteran
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    They could start by letting players inhabit the citys by making plots available with a choice of pre designed plans with weekly rent.

    No custom housing we all know how that turned out on some shards...


    Maybe also give different training bonuses to each town.


    thats all i got for now...
     
  6. lupushor

    lupushor Guest

    I often visit the provisioner to buy bags. What would we do without bags??
     
  7. virtualhabitat

    virtualhabitat Lore Keeper
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    renting a room at the inn (with a reasonable storage) could be an alternative to having more than one house per account. You could invest in other shards more easily.
     
  8. old gypsy

    old gypsy Grand Poobah
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    I'd like to see Luna turned into ruins without a bank, shops, or moongate. Then set up player vendor locations scattered about in the cities -- not like the system in New Magincia, but with just normal rental deeds with reasonable fees. This would spread out the options for shopping anyway.
     
  9. Lady Laurel

    Lady Laurel Seasoned Veteran
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    These would both be really cool ideas
     
  10. old gypsy

    old gypsy Grand Poobah
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    This would be eagerly utilized by many players, and might even bring a few more people to Siege who may not have a free account to place a house there.
     
  11. Aibal

    Aibal Slightly Crazed
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    +1. Great idea for those of us who play multiple shards but have our house(s) on one main shard.
     
  12. yars

    yars Lore Keeper
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    only i have problem with so far is the raiders arent spawning enough, and when they do spawn its some off hours like really early or during dinner time, once per day in one or two towns. not sure about the other shards
     
  13. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Instead of this idea, what about if they allowed players to place vendors in shops? Sort of like New Magincia. You could sell ingots in an NPC smith shop. Or powder fort. Etc., etc. Repair deeds. Localized items. Seems like that would be a worthy bid war to secure a vendor spot like that. I don't know if player-ownership of a town is the right idea, but localized vendors seems interesting to me.

    The UO world is very large though, and it's definitely a difficult task to populate cities since most cities are self-sufficient in terms of having all major shops...I talked about it a few weeks ago, UO needs habitual action. The towns don't seem alive because nothing ever appears to go on. All of the NPCs stand around and walk here or there. There aren't animated NPCs, like, say, NPCs stuck in a mining loop near the Minoc mines. Little things like animated NPCs, doing chores or routine activity--miming it, at least--could help give a city life. Fishers off Vesper dock. Maybe they could sell fishing stuff, too.

    Make crates, boxes, cabinets, etc. :p...do quests (just for the bag)

    Interesting idea but seems as if there would be a lot of coding to do. I guess what they could do is have each room operate like a ship hold. By the way, a ship is still a great way to shift things between players on an account. With two accounts, a packhorse is nice. Neither is permanent, but you usually don't have enough items on an off-shard to really need to store stuff. I know some do, but my main concern is shifting, usually.
     
  14. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    There are already two Skara Brae shop locations on every shard, (one on Siege), how many of them are being used? To a large degree it is up to the players to breathe the life into our towns.
     
  15. pgib

    pgib Guest

    We should be able to dwell in towns. I think i've asked for that like four years ago and at that time everyone agreed. So they did nothing.

    We should probably start asking for things we don't want or couldn't care less about so they won't do them and will focus on stuff we really want.

    I start.

    The 2009 wine harvested from cornucopias is corked.
     
  16. PitrGri

    PitrGri Guest

  17. old gypsy

    old gypsy Grand Poobah
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    Agreed. Unfortunately, when so much convenience is concentrated in a single location, such as Luna, the cities (as they are now) aren't going to draw many players.
     
  18. PitrGri

    PitrGri Guest

    I guess I am going to be very evil with this post but here goes...


    Town loyalty isn't very attractive unless...



    ...


    The top players get to roll on a town building, each month, and that house becomes grandfathered (meaning, it adds to your total homes on that account)...



    Isn't that attractive? :devil:


    (disclaimer: the post above is just a random thought, not inside information)
     
  19. virtualhabitat

    virtualhabitat Lore Keeper
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    I was considering some of the responses in this thread and was sort of daydreaming.

    Pitr's pic of magincia and his guild owning so many houses got me to thinking about factions and fel towns.


    First, let me say here. I do not play factions. I do not fully understand what they are about, are supposed to be about, nor do I fully understand the various mechanics in controlling a town.

    That said, I often see people express disappointment in factions. Some say there is no purpose other than to get Faction artifacts and access to horses.

    Someone I know who does play factions was trying to explain to me why faction leaders do not wish to place faction vendors. He explained it was to keep people from being able to buy those items at cheaper prices. It sounded dubious, as I haven't noticed even the faction leaders taking advantage of those vendors as often as one might expect if one had a monopoly over them.

    Pitr's last comment got me to thinking about factions and the role they might play if a new system were devised to give meaning to 'controlling a town'

    While it is true that individuals in factions fight over town territory, towns remain public spaces.

    Theoretically, a town (the people that live in or around it) would support those faction fighters that provide the greatest amount of stability and security. If the town could not see any benefit with one faction, they might support another. Both NPC's (AI) and players loyal to a particular town could influence how much support a ruling faction might get from a town they control.

    The more a faction shares the spoils, so to speak, the more support they receive. The more stingy or greedy a faction becomes, less support can be counted on.

    I don't know how the system would work, I haven't thought about it quite enough yet. The basic idea is there.

    The sky is the limit in terms of what 'controlling a town' might look like. Obviously, it would have to be relatively balanced, etc.

    For example, I know many fel residents do not like having guard zones in fel towns. What if controlling a town meant you could control who the guards protect and who they don't?

    Not loyal to Skara brae? The guards might not come if you call.
    There are a number of variations on this example, use your imagination.

    The happier a town is with how a faction governs, the lower prices get -for everyone. This would at least encourage some folks to go to fel towns more often.

    Thieves might get a reprieve from being guard whacked depending on town loyalty? membership in the ruling faction? Previously bribing the captain of the guard?

    I am not advocating that these be the changes, I am just daydreaming, as I said before. I am sure there are conflicts of balance and differing views on how fel towns should operate. I just think it would be kind of cool to have more interaction with towns.

    Perhaps some of you have better ideas?
     
  20. Extrapolating, like you are doing in this very post?

    Perhaps I am, but the second part I differ with. I don't insult people for having different opinions. That's what these forums are for. Sure I've swapped some fire every great once in a while by failing to ignore a troll, but believe it or not people on this forum HAVE changed my opinion and stance before. And universally it was done by calm and rational reasoning. Never once was it done by being nasty.

    I do have a good helping of empirical evidence, as well. The cities are deserted. The only time I ever see anyone in a city is in Luna, and its usually for the few remaining bank sitters and golem bashers.

    In the Dread Lord days towns were necessary. They were the only real safe place you could be and not have to worry about looking over your shoulder (aside from the thieves). Also, many of us didn't have houses, so towns were necessary for the banks, and in the beginning, we couldn't craft everything under the sun so the shops were needed. Not everyone had a 100% LRC suit so people actually bought reagents.

    Over the years this has all changed, some good, some bad, making cities largely obsolete in the game. This can be changed. Simply put, just give us a reason to come to town. The BODs and fish quests are a step in the right direction, but we need more. Here are some ideas:

    1 - Add a lot more top tier begging rewards. Don't just leave it for Halloween.
    2 - Offer some rewards that are useful in game but only attainable through town quests. Make said rewards non-transferrable.
    3 - Set up a system that encourages bards to arrive at taverns and play music. Like every 100th song, they get something that accrues.
    4 - Require players to periodically check in with the Royal Assayer else they accrue property taxes.
    5 - Set up some events in town. Program a bot to run some shakespeare characters on a stage in Brit, and give out commemorative souveniers.
    6 - Set up some kind of commodity trading/stock market system that the players must come to town to be a part of.
    7 - Casinos. For goodness sake, all the Ultima Games have them!
    8 - Cooking BODs -- for setting up royal banquets at the castles and so forth
    9 - Many more quests that start in town.
    10 - Tournaments -- jousting, marksmanship, etc.

    These are just some ideas that would make people leave the dungeons and their houses and start participating more in the urban areas...
     
  21. Raptor85

    Raptor85 Certifiable
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    should give a slight bonus to crafting if done near town blacksmith/tailor/fletchers shops, and maybe some bonus chances at repairing or enhancing items there as well. Shouldn't NEED to do something like this but with general chat now the need to hang out in general areas to talk was basicly killed, why bother when you can do the same thing from your house. A lot of fairly recent items also have further reduced need to ever go to town (commodity deed box, crystal portals, hitching post,etc) so it would be nice if they added something to add reason back.
     
  22. virtualhabitat

    virtualhabitat Lore Keeper
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    I like this idea. In fact, all those crafting talismans with bonus' could be replaced with a system like this.

    I would gladly hang out in the alchemy/herbalist shop making potions if I could get the same effect that my +30% alchemy bonus library talisman gives me.

    Same goes for all the crafting skills I have to use a talisman for.

    Even if it was a specific shop as opposed to any shop, like Skara I get that alchemy bonus because I did (or I do) something there, whereas I do not receive the bonus in Brit etc.
     
  23. I really cannot decide which of the following I find more vexing; your claim that Ultima Online's cities - which are themselves giant sandboxes ready for player made content at any moment - are ''Pathetic,'' or that smirking, androgenous avatar of yours.
    I believe it has to be the latter. But I digress..

    Demanding the developers step-in to add unnecessary content to these aforementioned sandboxes, and - Gods forbid - having them actually go through with it, would be adding just one more nail to the coffin of this shining beacon in the online sandbox genre.
    I'd elaborate further, but forum lurkers are restricted to a mere six hundred and seventy chara-
     
  24. virtualhabitat

    virtualhabitat Lore Keeper
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    3- It would be nice if bards could receive new songs to actually play while barding. I mean songs everyone can hear. The current bard sound is a little tired. Perhaps meeting in a tavern a bard could learn something new to play.
    Slayer songs?

    4- Interesting idea. Perhaps the lands could be divided in such a way that a particular town is in charge of a given area. The lands around Trinsic. Serpent's Hold might administer Fire Island, etc.

    5- This would be cool. I'd love to see Oedipus Rex in the Britain theater.
    Perhaps supporting the arts with gold and materials for sets and actors compensation might get you a special title or some token of recognition -house deco or something wearable?
     
  25. Celestial Knight

    Celestial Knight Adventurer

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    The future balance of uo not only citys but a full make over.I have seen in 13 years somany disagree and approve of changes in uo.
    I have played many other games and seen them go gone in a couple years or less while ultima online stands guess uo team is doing something right uh.
    A few will never be happy about anything even if you hand out what they ask for its never right by thier standards .:banana: slip and fail try to make all happy will this every take place(no clue)mean time i am staying in the corner of the uo team to do what is right and what is needed for ultima online
    .Happy this is Anger Managment uo style and no raod rage someone would have killed me by now :next:
     
  26. Raptor85

    Raptor85 Certifiable
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    Many of us play UO still not because of the changes but in spite of them. It's the history of the game, attachment to housing/communities, and shard history that's the last thing keeping a lot of players around, myself included. I haven't actually fully enjoyed the gameplay since pre-aos, and it's gotten worse and worse every year (less skill, more grind), so now i've actually dropped PVP on OSI shards as well and only hang around to chat and decor my castle really, it felt more like being an accountant than a warrior with all the armor mods you have to keep track of now, and with so few players around fights always revolved around which guild had more than 3 players online, or who had the dreadmare. Sucks though having to play two shards just to have fun pvm and pvp and still hang out in the community I love.
     
  27. It's Prince Caspian from the movie. It's not me and I don't envision that's what my UO main looks like, but seemed appropriate, since that's probably lately what most people think C.S. Lewis' character looks like. Sorry it's causing you distress.

    Adding content is why we play these games. If I wanted a status quo game, I'd go load up an old Ultima game.

    As for "unnecessary" content. I agree with the evident sentiment that my post was a bad choice of words, as "pathetic" was certainly a strong word and not everyone feels that way. But "unnecessary" is just as pejorative. Why is my dissatisfaction not valid?


    :lol:
     
  28. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    This is awesome. Thank you.
     
  29. I can see your point. "Vanilla sucks" doesn't mean "I don't care for vanilla," it's an indictment of the flavor and by extension censure of anyone who does like vanilla. Granted.


    I guess my argument is missing a keystone. I remember a time when cities were bustling with activity, around the clock. There was always something going on. There are a few problems with this ever returning to the status quo -- first, UO was much younger then, and was a hot new thing with several thousand more players and decidedly fewer shards.


    Anyway, this thread is demonstrating I'm clearly alone in this thinking. Guess I'm all wet on this one.
     
  30. Cirno

    Cirno Purple Pony Princess
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    I do actually kind of agree with you, Prince Caspian.

    Perhaps not for strictly the same reasons, but the discussions at the beginning of the event about which city would be best to pick are indicative of what the cities have generally become.
    They're really little more than locations on a map with guard zones and vendors.
    Subjective interpretation aside, there's little character to any of them, so players are going to have trouble identifying with them as anything but the above.

    Also, vanilla is awesome.
    Especially in milk tea.
     
  31. Cirno

    Cirno Purple Pony Princess
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    Every player is different, though.
    You roleplay, which almost by definition inserts life into even the most lifeless of corners. You see the world through your characters' eyes, or perhaps live vicariously through them. As you illustrate, the question of which city you should protect pretty much isn't one if your character has a will.

    However, outside of roleplay, the cities are essentially husks, with no character of their own outside of their construction.
    If you wander the streets of Britain, Trinsic or Vesper, the only differences really are what colour the walls and floor are, and how many bridges you have to cross.
    Receding playerbase, expanding map area and personal housing have leat to the dispersal of whatever life the frameworks of the cities may once have supported.
    You could go to the forge in any city, and probably find a smith there, so you might do that. Now, you could go to every force in every city, and not find one, so why bother?
    Activity breeds activity, and unfortunately the relevance of the cities to most peoples day-to-day play is reduced to as I said earlier; "NPCs and a guard zone".

    What I think Prince Caspian is getting at, is along those lines.
    Without personal reasoning for aligning yourself to a city (ie. RP, sentiment, or aesthetic), they're much of a muchness. There's nothing about the city of honour that distinguishes it from the city of compassion, so with what the game itself gives us, how do we make that decision?
     
  32. PitrGri

    PitrGri Guest

    Well... we took it to the next level... after 13 years, we finally created a Democracy... :D

    We declared New Magincia independent... and there was no Tea involved.


    Player Creativity and open Storyline is what makes UO different from every other game...


    "We shall all respect the principles of each other and do nothing that would be regarded as an act of oppression to any portion of the people."
     

    Attached Files:

  33. PitrGri

    PitrGri Guest

    How come?
     
  34. PitrGri

    PitrGri Guest

    "potentially undermines everything we have fought for thus far."

    Care to explain, thank you!
     
  35. Luvmylace

    Luvmylace Sage
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    If you wanted to offer criticism ,you definitely missed the boat.
    Perhaps this is the beginning of city revamp and in a more positive attitude you could have said good start to add updated worth to cities.....

    Was that WOW I heard calling you?
     
  36. PitrGri

    PitrGri Guest



    Thank you for explaining your point of view.

    I am some steps ahead regarding having a banner... but I see that for most of the population that rps it will be a tough call.

    Again, thank you for taking the time to point out the details I was missing in your post.
     
  37. PitrGri

    PitrGri Guest



    Greetings again...


    To explain the banner...

    This is something we discussed with one of the UO EMs... and after we got those 17 houses, we first declared our independence from the Crown then moved on to having a Township...


    “Dear Citizens,

    it is with great pleasure that I am able to announce that the crown will accept with immediate effect the recognition of towns and their banners. The name „town“ is used in my announcement here, but it is also representative for communities, auctions houses, player taverns and similar smaller establishments.

    To ensure to have a smooth recognition of your town please obey the rules below:

    Size (number of houses), facet and coordinates:
    1-4 Settlement
    5-10 Village/Hamlet
    11-20 Town
    21-30 City
    31+ Kingdom/Empire/City-State

    Town recognitions are available for all facets.

    Allegiance:
    Tell us where your loyalty lies: with the crown, against the crown or neutral. Your decision may have an influence on future events in the area of your town

    Ambassadors:
    Persons who represents your town. Ideally this should be two, or even three individuals who can be contacted if necessary (see also 7, “Communication”)

    Events:
    A town must offer regular/periodic and public events. This could be hunts, game events, meetings, tavern nights, auctions, tournaments or similar

    Community:
    Show us which houses are connected together. It doesn’t matter if it’s the same town name on the house sign, a special colour or decoration

    History:
    Your town should provide some history.
    Interested visitors should always be able to
    inform themselves about your establishment

    Communication:
    Your town should provide communication. Visitors should always be able to contact you or your establishment (barkeeper, message boards, mailboxes, books; but also through websites/forums)

    Banners:
    Your town has to submit a banner. It should be max. 6×6 tiles big and should not block house placement around it.

    Please submit the following facts:

    suggested coordinates for the banner
    the model numbers and name for the items used in your banner:
    use only Inside UO for this. Choose category “Artwork”, then use the tab “Static Tiles”. You can also use single frames from the category “Animations”. There is an example of the town of Gyldenfeld, how to split up your submission into the necessary details
    a picture (format: JPG, PNG or GIF) of your banner

    Note: The crown will have the final say if a banner is accepted or not. Banner inputs which were not accepted can be re-worked


    The submission of your town and banner have to be complete, otherwise the recognition would not be possible. The list (1-8) must be answered completely.

    In the name of the crown and of whole Sosaria I will invite the interested towns and their ambassadors to have a discussion in the very near future.

    Please submit the form here directly to our scribes or mail it directly to us.

    May the virtues be with you,
    Queen Dawn”


    That was the banner that GRI is representing... the New Magincia Township (Felucca)...

    While other rpers will have a tough time deciding who to help... we have our path already established.


    I hope all was clear.
    (English isnt my first language... nor my third :p )
     
  38. Prime.

    Prime. Sage
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    I love how UO's turned into gimmie gimmie

    . I won't participate in Factions until there's a reward, I won't participate in EM events unless there's a reward. I won't participate in Story Arcs because there's no reward and I'll be wasting my time..

    I really miss when UO wasn't about items :(
     
  39. PitrGri

    PitrGri Guest

    I meant Banner with the meaning of a personal flag, standart... I wonder if the next stage will have to do with the Brotherhood... and Batlin...
     
  40. Vyal

    Vyal Guest

    The cities are very poorly done. The lighting in buildings is terrible, most of the deco is placed wrong. Buildings also have the same model, two bedroom pieces armoire and and a chest of drawers then a chair a plate and silverware lol every house is like that. Most of the spawns are muffed up, I mean some spots will have a thousand shop keepers in them for no reason at all. One of the guard posts in Vesper is actually filled with beggers & has no guards.
    & does anyone remember when stealing from barrels & chests in towns used to be actually worth it? Now the best you can steal is a pair of gloves with +2 to each resist - same goes for most dungeons.
    Also the cities don't stick to lore. For instance Minoc is supposed to be a town of workers, but when you go there it's filled with nobles. Each towns occupants should feel like they belong there.
    After 15 years most of the towns have not changed a single bit.
    Maybe after they finish revamping the dungeons sometime in the next 10 years we can get a revamp of the cities....
     
  41. Now them's fighting words. I'm a beta UO player, and I've stuck by this game for longer than most. I've never played World of Warcraft, and never plan to.

    Good illustration of Galen's point. It's not enough to disagree, folks have to be nasty as well.
     
  42. Luvmylace

    Luvmylace Sage
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    So Have I, but I think you get what you troll for. If you start out with a positive theme ,then you will find more posts with upbeat ideas ,not negatives.
    Just trying to say be kind to an old friend