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Classic Shard = Siege Perilous

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Kafka72, Jun 21, 2010.

  1. Kafka72

    Kafka72 Journeyman
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    Isn't it.... Well isn't it?? I'll admit I haven't kept up with this "Classic Shard" debate. It seems like saying "We want to go back to the Dark Ages, the Dark Ages were great!!". So isn't Siege Perilous the "Classic Shard" or do people really want to go back to one AR type, one damage type, dumbed down play of yester years or what. I don't get it...
     
  2. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    I'm lazy right now, but they are no where near the same to me. Plus the biggest thing... it's still item based. That's the #1 issue us classic shard people have.
     
  3. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    No, Siege is just like other shards with some exceptions. No insurance and fel-rule sets in every facet are the biggest. RoT is another.
     
  4. chuckoatl

    chuckoatl Guest

    Classic shard people couldnt adapt to the new play style needed. So now they have spent 11 years complaining about item based UO. Like any good player wants to back to naked duels with a hally. It was stupid then, would be even dumber now.
     
  5. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    11 years? me thinks you were not even around for the pre-item game ;)

    and insta Hally was lame, that's why we were happy it was removed.
     
  6. Vaen Swiftar

    Vaen Swiftar Guest

    Anyone who says Classic Shard = Siege Perilous is living in a big fat vat of denial.
     
  7. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I was there from the start, and I have no desire to go back. What was without doubt once the best gaming experience of my life, would not be much fun today.

    Cause as I've said before, very little of the fun had to do with the systems in place.

    I say they would be better served to work on siege's rough edges, because it's a good ruleset in general, and aos style items work well, especially now that we have imbuing.
     
  8. Metalstorm

    Metalstorm Seasoned Veteran
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    I want both. (I'm just greedy like that :))

    I want the current production shards because I have better odds at pvm and honestly, it's not all bad. There are many things I like about it.

    I want a classic shard for skill based pvp play. There was something very cool about relying on real skill rather than items. It all came down to nerve & technique. Although both are still required in today's UO, gathering items and figuring out which ones to equip is a much larger part now than the former two.

    I'm not knocking it but it would be nice to have a skill based shard coexist with the normal, modern shards.



    basically,I wouldn't choose one over the other but rather would love to dabble in both worlds.
     
  9. Sturdy

    Sturdy Guest

    To the OP, I agree with you.

    To some of the other posters.
    I played on Siege soon after it was put up. (pre AOS) It was lots of fun. It is still lots of fun for most of the same reasons though it is way way too quiet.

    Now as I recall the game was item based then too. GM armor and a vanq was better than non. Most players did not have vanq weps.

    Given that it has been 7-8 years since AoS I have to say- get over it. Obviously you have been here the whole time doing something, or you came back, or you weren't playing then. If any of this is true you need to take a deep breath and get OVER IT!.

    You want to play with no insurance? Come to Siege. You want to endlessly QQ about the good old days that never were go play another game.- Like any of the several "independent" games I cant mention.

    (Psst. Google UO Adam Ant)

    I think what people really miss is the excitement of being part of something new- on the cutting edge, and with a population big enough to create a real sense of competition, community, and excitement.

    The game is better now than it was then- we just need more players.

    /end rant.
     
  10. HD2300

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    Exactly, whining about AOS properties is a crock, because you had vanquishing items in the Classic era.

    hahaha this Classic shard "astroturfing" is the biggest load of crock ever. It is just the same handful of people spamming, and one of the top 3 spammers made their living off UO and has posted things like 'if you ban all the cheaters, UO will die' multiple times. Anything that a markeey dragoon wannabee who posts crap like 'if you ban all the cheaters, UO will die' has no merit. end of story.
     
  11. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    the person that posted that was joking... you kinda missed the other thread where that came from. Thought I told you that ;)

    But I agree there was Vanq weapons and such, but they were not needed to win,. that's my issue. a Naked PvPer could still win against someone with a Vanq and GM armor, just took a bit more skill.

    I tried to PvP in just my kilt for a long time after AoS, but winning was rare. You need the items now, hence item-based in my mind.
     
  12. HD2300

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    That person may claim to be joking, but its a total crock, because they have posted something similar before. i.e. more than once.

    Anyone who is the first to post 'if you ban all the cheaters, UO will die' in Cal's thread on anti-cheating measures is someone UO doesnt need.
     
  13. EricVT

    EricVT Adventurer
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    People didn't generally PvP with Vanq weapons...unless they were lucky enough to have scored an item bless deed and used it on one.

    I had a bankbox full of GM ringmail and GM battle axes and I never had any problem taking down Chaos players or PKers.

    Even going into dungeons people were sometimes hesitant about taking nice weapons with them because they could be freely looted by anyone if they died. I never took my silver vanq axes down to liches unless I had a party with me that could grab it if I died.

    And full invulnerability armor and a supremely accurate vanq weapon didn't give even a tenth of the advantage over GM equipment that the stuff people use today does.
     
  14. Dakkon Blackblade

    Dakkon Blackblade Seasoned Veteran
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    Pointless thread really, it comes down to a difference of opinion, name calling aside some people think the game is better now and some think it took many steps in the wrong direction.

    Also as EricVT correctly pointed out, while there were vanq weapons around back then many people were to afraid to use them for fear of losing them in battle, there was no insurance back then and you could still beat someone even if they were using a vanq weapon, it was no easy feat and your chances were much better if they were using a slow clumsy weapon but it could be done.

    In all of the Order/Chaos battles I was involved in and they were many, I can think of about three off the top of my ahead that involved weapons greater than force, which was equivalent to a GM weapon at the time if I recall correctly.

    Again though people aren't going to be swayed by discussion, this game inspires strong opinions, and that's fine, variety is the spice of life after all.
     
  15. Archie

    Archie Sage
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    The real Dark Ages get a bad rap.

    But to answer your "question", no.
     
  16. HD2300

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    People are missing the community that UO had 10 years ago heck even 4 years ago. Study above is right. It is the lack of players on all existing shards. You could open a new shard, any type, production/pvp only/pvm only, and you would have instant community because tons of people would start playing it just for something to do. A classic shard would be like building the Titanic to transport a single computer, when all you need is a small boat.
     
  17. eekamouse

    eekamouse Guest

    This thread is 100% pointless.

    I play on a Prodo shard.
    I play on Siege.
    And, I play on another "shard" not to be named, that mirrors closely those features which the Classic Shard "people" are requesting.

    I like them all for different reason.

    My favorite is the Classic Shard... by far. If EA/Mythic implemented a well done Classic Shard free of all forms of cheating, it would be the best MMO in the Milky Way... period.
     
  18. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    In your Opinion... period.
     
  19. pub 15 was quite balanced in pvp, and people did use vanqs and invul armor frequently. maybe not the solo players, but those that had access to fisherman and treasure hunters could afford to lose a few pieces here and there.
     
  20. Babble

    Babble Guest

    No, it is not!
    :p
     
  21. Dakkon Blackblade

    Dakkon Blackblade Seasoned Veteran
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    This post doesn't change the fact that none of us really know how big or small a classic shard would become, it's the fatal flaw in many of your arguments HD, you keep posting things like this as if you had something solid to support it when you don't.

    Classic and Siege are to different to be compared, and the only way you could make siege appealing to classic players, would be to completely turn siege into a pre aos shard, take away rot, add the five character slots, etc.

    Which in turn would completely anger the current siege community I imagine, and they would have every right to be upset if such a change were proposed, it's their home after all.

    Basically until a classic shard is put up and observed for a set amount of time we won't know if it is a success or not. However if the team decides not to do it at all I would be happy with just hearing a straight up "no and that's the end of it"
     
  22. HD2300

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    It is plus a couple of thousand returning players, which even many Classic fanbois agree with. You can go back into the Classic threads and see for yourself. RPGMMOs always take longer to develop than estimated, so the problem is when you devote 2 years to developing and fixing the Classic shard, there is going to be long stretches where there will be no content for the production shards, and in all likelyhood you will lose more players than gain overall. Remember 2007 and the KR client. UO lost ~30,000 players when there was 9 months of no new content.

    So why would you even bother to spend 2 years just for a hail mary pass, when you can just start any new shard, like a pvp only or pvm only shard, and there will be tons of players getting into it anyway.

    btw do you guys actually believe that it isnt obvious to Cal that the sudden astroturfing after weeks of inactivity for a Classic shard is not obvious?
     
  23. Archie

    Archie Sage
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    So a classic shard draws a couple thousand new/returning players tops, but any new shard (PvM/PvP only) draws tons? (Are those current players? New players? Returning players?)

    Why not start a new classic shard and draw tons?
     
  24. HD2300

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    EA is only interested in bottomline.

    Classic = gain couple of thousand returnees, but lose tons = lose tons overall. see why in post above
    PvP only = gain couple of thousand returnees
    PvM only = maybe gain couple of thousand returnees. potentially gain 10 times more. Remember PvMers outnumber PvPers 10 to 1.
     
  25. HD2300

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    Got off-topic, but back to Siege.

    The 3 most common reasons stated for why people dont want to play Siege are
    1. housing
    2. skill gain
    3. character slots

    In terms of low lying fruit, just having blackrock, higher arty drops, and cheaper faction arties wont really have as much of an impact as say making skill gain exactly like production shards and character slots exactly like production shards.

    I assume making 2. and 3. exactly like production shards would be low lying fruit, and if implemented the only reason why people wouldnt want to play Siege would then be housing. This is looking at things from a distance as an independent observer.
     
  26. Archie

    Archie Sage
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    That doesn't explain the tons of players who will flock to this new shard, it only reiterates your opinion that developing a classic shard will drain too many resources away from the regular shards, and thus cause a net loss in players due to less new content/bug fixes/etc. for the regular shards.

    That's not necessarily correct, although given the track record, I think you have reason to be concerned. :/
     
  27. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Vanq weapons, or any high end weapon could be found off just about any half decent monster. So you could fight whatever flaoted your boat, liches, terathans, dragons, etc.. You were not relegated to one area, like doom, or peerless.

    Also Vanq weapons were easily attainable via fishing and T-Maps as well.

    To PvP you could easily compete and even win with GM made stuff, against someone who was in full Invulnerable plate with Vanq weapons.

    And as also mentioned above, no one ever PvPed with the highest end Vanq weapons like an indestructible supremely accurate silver katana of vanq, those stayed in the bank.

    To me it was the perfect balance between player crafting and item loot.

    Today the game has become "the flavor of the day". First everyone wanted Arties, which ruined crafters. now they added Imbuing which ruined all the time and money people spent on arties and runic suits.

    Yes it is important to keep a game fresh, and maybe that is the crux of this whole issue. how to keep it fresh and exciting is the tough part.

    If you add more land mass it dilutes the field. if you add more creatures, you have to have a decent reason for people to kill them, which in turn dilutes the other creatures.

    maybe the main thing should have been to continually increase skills above 120... who knows?

    On a side note, if they did make the current land mass all like Fel it sure would make it way more difficult on Pkers just for them trying to find you.

    Also maybe they made new land masses to where you could not recall to at all, like champ spawns.. this way the pkers have to walk to their prey.

    Just thoughts...
     
  28. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    hally/heavy crossbow ftw hahaha
     
  29. Dakkon Blackblade

    Dakkon Blackblade Seasoned Veteran
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    It doesn't matter who agrees with what, bottom line you have no facts nobody does it's that simple, you can try to dance around it all you want, parse the words however you wish but you cannot escape that simple fact.

    UO doesn't have that many more players to lose, the asian market is essentially keeping it propped up, so it's becoming more obvious that the current model just isn't working, and there are a lot of reasons for that I'm sure.

    Also again you keep throwing this 2 years to do the shard thing around, and you've been doing it for a long time, you need to stop throwing this baseless 2 year number around it has no weight behind it like most every argument you have made against the classic shard idea to begin with.

    A couple of kids working on it can throw it up in a few weeks, now I know good and well that there is a difference between the software they use to emulate UO and the way that the devs would go about doing it would be different. However I cannot imagine the end result is anywhere near two years, for all we know they already have a prototype test shard rolled out.

    Where we disagree is "needed" it has nothing to do with an inability to adapt,I personally see the game as having gone backwards which is the main point of contention and the reason I unsubscribed a long time ago.
     
  30. Evlar

    Evlar Guest


    That's how I recall T2A "Lost Lands" when they first came in. I used to spend hours exploring those lands and was never particularly a great PvP'er, but I could hold my own and it was fun. You never knew who you might bump into out there. The difference in games these days though, is players want to get from A to B "now", not in ten or fifteen minutes "walking" time. Part of the adventure in the game was the journey. Now it seems in a lot of game, people want straight at the end-game or the end result, without what they think is the "mundane" journey to get there.

    Someone else mentioned that PvM'ers outnumber PvP'ers 10 to 1. That may well be the case now, but it wasn't always. Yes, with non-consensual PvP rules, the players didn't have a choice particularly, but more players were prepared and accepting that certain "encounters" would be likely.

    The biggest problem I find with "current" UO, is that I feel the options available have diminished, rather than grown. I would argue that instead of choices, we have restrictions. It just seems that whenever a "problem" has surfaced, such as the apparently rampant PK'ing (yes, that actually varied from shard to shard - some it was a problem, others it wasn't...), the answer seems to have been putting a stop to it, rather than find a good amicable solution.

    When you put the brakes on something entirely, such as playing a thief as a character (considering the relative pointlessness of it now), then you can't really call the game an RPG any more. Clearly some players exploited game mechanics to the extreme. That was the problem. Unfortunately successive developers chose the easiest of options available, instead of more creative options available.

    My thoughts are that Siege should have been the classic shard. The biggest appeal for Siege was it was a single rule set, unlike the trammelled production shards. They maybe should have brought in the new land-masses and creatures, but not the item-based content. That probably killed the appeal for many who preferred the more "original" or "different" UO experience.

    Yes, I would like to see a classic option available, but sadly, I feel it would at the same time signal the ultimate death rattle for Siege. Such is why I fully understand the reasons why many Siege players don't want to see a classic option.

    As for the majority of the production shard players against a classic option, they mainly seem to fear loss of "production time" spent on their needs and wants. That, or either they weren't around years ago to experience "classic" UO, or they're so dead against any form of PvP, something that features it goes against their very nature.

    We've all got opinions on the subject. We're often right in our own minds, because it's what we believe in based on our own individual experiences. We've all played the game and preferred different aspects. Nothing wrong with that.
     
  31. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    You remind me of Gretchen Wieners and her word "Fetch" haha.

    But how can you say a classic shard will take 2 years to set up?

    I'd like to point something out, Tram was born around 2000, making any shard a PvM shard only to anyone who wishes it. How can you say if EA said "We put up a Tram only server! No Fel!" thousands of ex players would come back and play a server that's 100% cut, copy, paste of any other tram?
     
  32. slaveone

    slaveone Guest

    UO was ALWAYS item based in classic UO if you had a ruin sword and some durable armor you got pwnt by someone with a vanq sword and invulnerable armor. You people are just laughable there is really no differance (other than stealing and insurance) except that the game is now much more complex and there are many more options to the items one uses. In the end a classic shard would be full of reds with Vanq weps and Invul armor thinking they are leet when they gang up on some solo blue player with his ruin sword and durable armor. Get over yourselves and this stupid idea of a classic shard ever being made. UO will ALWAYS be item based classic or SA to claim otherwise is a blatent lie. SO WAKE UP THERE WILL NEVER BE A CLASSIC SHARD! Siege is your best bet if you don't like that option cancel your account(s) your whining won't be missed....
     
  33. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    All good points.

    I would say the main reason I don't play Siege is because it is still item based.

    I preferred the game when it was more skill based, with the addition of items. but these items did not play a huge role in the outcome of PvP battles.

    I also liked being able to go almost anywhere and still have a chance of getting a nice weapon or armor.

    I know most mages wont agree with me here but nothing is more infuriating than a mage duel that consists of, weaken, harm, magic arrow, weaken, poison, weaken, explode, weaken, harm, magic arrow.... bla bla bla.

    Yes it takes skill in the timing but personally I think it defeats the purpose of the skill itself. today a mage with 100 magery can defeat one with 120. in the old days a mage with 80 magery would never have defeated a mage with 100 magery..
     
  34. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    *sigh* no not correct. insta-Hally? yes, but that's why it was removed. Sorry but my green kilt had no advantage over anyone elses.

    Why do people who never played pre-AoS made these posts? I never saw a single PK run around with a Vanq, and I ran a PK Tower for a long time. Even at that, it never made that big of a difference, none that skill couldn't over come.


    Not long ago when I transfered over for Rares fest, I was in fel brit and someone kept one shotting me, now that's worse than any insta-hally imho.

    but bottom line, was there items in UO? yes, but was it item based? No.

    And I think that is what you're failing to see. Item based games mean that the items hold the power, skill based games mean the skill holds the power. And both have a certain degree of each other in it.

    Counter-Strike has different guns to chose from, now go post in a C-S forum and start telling them that C-S is an item based game and see what they say. Skill always wins there.

    I'll recap for you

    Item based (post Chilton in UO):

    items > skill

    skill based (before the Chilton infection):

    skill > items


    so again, skill based games can still have items. It just has to be that the items are not the make or break deal in PvP.


    How come anti-classic people take this so personal? You're always the ones that start the name calling, trolling and flaming. And when we defend ourselves, you're always the first ones to try and blame it on us and dodge the questions.
     
  35. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Well in your scenario you may be correct, but on the other hand, if you had a gm made weapon with gm made armor the PKer with the Vanq weapon and Invul armor would not "pwnt" the person at all.

    And the only vanq weapons that PKers walked around with were basic ones that anyone could get or use easily. The super high end vanq weapons no one used or barely even had in their hand unless at the bank, and even then they didn't in fear of thieves. At least it was this way on Chessy back in 1997 through 2000.
     
  36. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    and one more HUGE difference... mace fighting removed all items from PvP. So even if your opponent was about to "pwnt" you (only if you had no skill, but just for sake of the point) you pick up a war axe and get to work. I knew many people who took up macing just because of Pheonix armor.
     
  37. Archie

    Archie Sage
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    Vanquishing weapons and invulnerable armor were not protection from magery! Besides, the top end of those items were pretty rare, fairly expensive, and carefully wielded.

    Sure, toe to toe in a dexer pot chugging duel the better items have the advantage, but people didn't play like that.

    GM armor and weapons were widely used. Player vendors that sold GM crafted weapons and armor were numerous. That pretty much shoots down the whole "classic UO was item based...vanq...invul..." macro that's been going around.
     
  38. Evlar

    Evlar Guest

    Ahh yes... when a macer turned up, it was always fun seeing how quickly people wearing anything remotely decent would disappear off the screen. :lol:
     
  39. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    Person #1: "Prepare for your face to meet my Vanq Kat!"

    Person #2: *equips war axe*

    Person #1: "uhh, I need to go to the bank... for something" *Kal Ort Por*

    Person #2: *grins*


    in a nutshell, there you have it :lol:
     
  40. Ummm....no. Siege Perilous is an Age of Shadows shard for veterans. A "Classic Shard" would have a Pre-Age of Shadows ruleset.
     
  41. *HIDES*
     
  42. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    remember early on when you could talk while hidden without it revealing you? i so miss that
     
  43. Publish 15 was the best PvP Ultima Online ever had.

    Those of you saying Classic UO was item based because of vanquishing and invulnerability armor need to consider that you could very easily lose those weapons and armor from a single surprise attack. They certainly provided a benefit, but if you were bad you lost 'em. If you were good, you kept them until somebody better targetted you (or if an assassin hiding at minoc gate on the Atlantic shard nailed you walking through the gate and took your stuffz). A thief might have something to say about those nifty items too. The risk of carrying the items was equivalent to the benefit of having them. That is not item based, that is skill based.
     
  44. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Or if you lost connection which at times happened a lot...
     
  45. Archie

    Archie Sage
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    Yeah, good point. Lag monster and its evil twin, Dropped Conn, were the most fearsome foes in the game.
     
  46. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    I remember when they had an invasion of Trinny long ago.. not the one where there was no town guards but one where all the monsters were near Brit gate and there was hundreds of them.. rotting corpses stuff like that.

    I took out my supremely accurate indestructible silver double ax of force out since it was near the gate so there wasn't much fear for pk's. there were so many monsters that i lagged and then obviously died. by the time i got back i couldn't find the monster that looted it...

    Ah well easy come easy go.
     
  47. HD2300

    HD2300 Certifiable
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    ... yes... the track record for every mmorpg project in every company ever.

    imo any new shard, even if it is a production shard, if you prevent shard transfers, will be packed with tons of current players trying it out. Now if its is pvp only or pvm only (with faction and guild wars), either would bring back returning players.
     
  48. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
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    Up until AOS Siege was as classic as you could get and the best shard UO had to offer, Up to Pub 15 UO pvp was at its most balanced, addicting, Fun. PvM was at its best IMHO, it took great skill to fight Dragons, Balrons, Blood Elementals. The community was HUGE vendor malls all over, Smiths at the smithys Classic UO was not a game but another world, And to most of us classic shard people it was just that. Todays UO has pretty much become a single player game revolving around the next overpowered item worth 20m or more. Even prior to AOS in tram there was some risk to dieing either losing your corpse, Turning to bones and getting looted, G-whacked and 30 peeps surround your body lol. now what is it? will set you back a minute or two maybe 3-4?

    I believe the demand is there for a Classic type shard and thus under the most basic rule Supply is needed and EA will create it. Using Blizzard as a current modern model and it shows that there is a diverse playerbase and to solve that problem they made many different server types, It would be wise for EA and any other MMO company out there to follow suit regardless what the players of apposing playstyles think.
     
  49. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Man me too. My buddies and I used to camp wind demons (less rabble with the magery req to get in) and we would hide and chat between monsters. It was great.

    I would also steal from people, them hide, and taunt them. :)
     
  50. Dakkon Blackblade

    Dakkon Blackblade Seasoned Veteran
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    Funny little story of my own regarding that neat ability to hide and talk, there was a noobie running around Lord British Castle, so a friend and I were outside and there was a cow just kind of parked next to us and we said to the new player "psst I'm the magic talking cow of Lord British, drop 50 gp on the ground and I will raise your stats" he did and we yanked it up for a moment just to get a reaction.

    The guy was all surprised when it didn't work and we eventually did give him his money back after a few moments, but that was one of the memories I've never let go of to this day, it was a knee slapper.