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Classic shard.

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Unsatisfied, Mar 9, 2010.

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  1. Unsatisfied

    Unsatisfied Guest

  2. Unsatisfied

    Unsatisfied Guest

    I'm sure anyone who was following the out of control ammount of threads that were made about the same topic know that they have all been closed. A mod has allowed a new one, but if it turns flame fest it's gone.

    I'm sure everyone knows my stance on the classic shard so I won't repeat it just yet untill I see something I feel the need to address.
     
  3. Heartseeker

    Heartseeker Guest

    I don't think you're going to get much of a response anymore.

    The biggest reason is; the remaining people in UO, especially that post here do not support the idea.

    The main reason would be that it would take more people off their already dwindling population.

    Given time and word of mouth there might be more people that would come and play.

    Personally I love the idea and support it 100%, but you're not going to get a lot of loving on these boards.
     
  4. Unsatisfied

    Unsatisfied Guest

    I completely understand and expected that, but regardless. If anyone does want to discuss it at least there is an open thread, with an unbiased name that's yet to be flames all over.
     
  5. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    May it stay flame free.

    As a starting point, do we, for the most part, agree that any Classic Shard EA makes for us should be pre-AOS?
     
  6. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Classic shard to me should be pre-renassance. This is of course before the AoS.
     
  7. Beer_Cayse

    Beer_Cayse Guest

    :bdh::bdh::bdh::bdh:

    One for each of the most recent attempts at this. <sigh>
     
  8. Unsatisfied

    Unsatisfied Guest

    This isnt simply "another" thread, this is the only one. The others have all been locked due to things getting out of hand and I made this one after speaking to a mod asking about it.

    so please if you think were beating a dead horse, ignore this post and move to the next one and let us continue our discussions.
     
  9. Unsatisfied

    Unsatisfied Guest

    Yep. this is THE most important thing. regardless to if you want fel only or fel/tram everyone wants pre aos for the classic shard.
     
  10. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    Said 'mod' is watching closely, so far so good.
     
  11. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
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    The poll at the top is very limited, where is the UO:R tram free choice (2000-pub15, no tram)? To me it seems very biased and is not from the point of view of someone who plays that type of shard or playstyle. WTF? PUB 16 with powerscrolls? classic shard means NO POWERSCROLLS! here our mod gives very biased choices and locks every other thread about the subject and tells us to vote in the poll. Lame no wonder nothing can get figured out.

    PS: Petra Im not Knocking you but you could have had a couple other choices, Cheers.
     
  12. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
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    Yes it is Pub 15 or prior, and I believe there should be no 2 ruleset classic shards, they need a couple that are fel only, and a couple that are tram only.
     
  13. Reximus

    Reximus Guest

    In reality, even if they started now I'd say it would be atleast a year away, even if they 'just restore a backup' like everyone claims, the current client wouldn't run on it because so many packets have changed over time.

    Unless they forced you to use an old client aswell, but that is problematic aswell, lots of bugs/exploits have been patched since then, (50gp neon hair exploit comes to mind initially, depending on how far back they go).
     
  14. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I picked up the most popular choices from the other polls. While we could put in a lot more choices, would that really be desireable?
    Or does that send the message that the player base is so divided on the time scale that the whole premise is totally unfeasible?

    UO:R without Tram never existed in the UO timeframe, therefore it would not be 'classic' but an adaption.
     
  15. A Rev

    A Rev Guest

    Id play it, definatly love it...then probably go back to prodo.

    Probably that is...not definatly of course.
     
  16. Riply

    Riply Lore Keeper
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    Well since i have not replied to any of the other posts concerning a classic shard being available here are my thoughts on the subject.
    First being I've been playing almost from beta so I have seen the game develope through out its history.

    1) Classic shard would be a nice change of pace from now, and I would
    play it along with the normal shard I play on.

    2) Could bring back alot of old vets for a more balanced less item based
    PvP experiance for both the old and new.

    3) Of course make it so nothing goes into the shard and nothing can leave
    the shard.

    4) Housing umm thats debatably as far as having an extra house for this
    along with your normal shard. I can see the pluses and minuses of this.

    5) I really can't see where having a classic shard would hurt the UO game
    itself and the experiance of it. If anything it should help the health of the
    game. The only drawback would be taking time away from some of the
    staff that are perhaps working on bugs in the existing game. But I fear with
    the dwindling population of UO atm on many shards not fixing some
    exisiting bugs will make little differance to the player base as it stands
    now.

    So for me yeah I would like to see a pre gen shard back in existance for the players to try out.
     
  17. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
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    "Classic" is within the original concept or spirit if you will, of UO. Time frame means nothing if under that concept. It could have all the land masses, items(not AOS weaps or armors), systems that are not unbalancing to combat be it PvP or PvM. if it stayed true to the original design UO was created with. Too bad I cant name a PRS shard that can help set the devs in the right direction. These people run a 2nd age, A UO:R'ish pub 15 style with some current additions and no tram, and a current shard(like what we play on EA) with both tram and fel, the T2A era and current only has a couple hundred on at all times, the UO:R era has an average of 1k on at all times but I have seen upwards of about 3500 on. to me it seems like that is the preferred era, Keep in mind these are free and a player is not forced to play a fel ruleset shard but yet they choose to, and the number of PvM'ers clearly out number the PvPer's on that shard. Unlike EA where we have no real choice on what we play.

    To me the numbers of active players on these servers are the best poll's you can get being that the players are playing their choice.

    Here are some key things that make up a classic shard:

    1: No AOS combat items
    2: No PowerScrolls
    3: One ruleset (both fel and tram versions in fact are needed)
    4: Revert of Resisting spells skill
    5: 14 day house decay timer
    6: Texas Law Housing rules IE: no private houses (but can include custom houses)
    7: no X-fers on or off, no advanced characters
    8: Chaos, Order
    9: Classic client Use only
    10: No insurance
    11: A ton of energy drink, coffee and smoke's :)
     
  18. Multani

    Multani Journeyman
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    I think you should be able to steal someone's house deed, so a house placement tool in my eyes should not be in the game.

    If they do allow Customizable Houses I definatly think they would need to find a way to make these a deed form as well.
     
  19. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
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    House placement Deed, Works like a house tool, can only be used once, once clicked the housing menu pops up like a placement tool and choose your house size from there, the deed can be stolen on Fel rule set servers.

    Or it can be a named Classic house deed and using a context menu you can choose custom by hovering the cursor over the deed, and the cost difference either subtracted from the Classic house cost or added provided you have the funds, used one time only, non blessed.
     
  20. Guido_LS

    Guido_LS Seasoned Veteran
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    The biggest issue, I think, is what counts as *classic*.

    I am a native of Lake Superior, and have been since the day I first subscribed many years ago. Before Renaissance. And to me, it wouldn't matter which pub they attempted to re-create, because the things that made Superior classic still wouldn't be there. The people that, over the years, made that particular shard CLASSIC. And that's the key - it's not the rule set, but the people.

    Dennar is gone, and I seriously doubt that he would come back. Flint Fireforge is gone, and I seriously doubt he will come back. Father Ganja is gone, and I seriously doubt he would come back. Even the vast majority of what I like to term "the honorable reds" are gone, and I seriously doubt they would come back. Dozens of dozens of others, all gone. And not because of AoS, or PK's, or shoddy PvP, but, simply, the passage of time, and the opportunities coming from life.

    And even if they all came back, it still wouldn't be the same, because, quite simply, they wouldn't be on Lake Superior, but on a different server entirely. Now, I am going to make a leap of faith and say that most (all?) of the other servers also had their cast of characters that made that particular place "classic". And if they all came back? It would be to the new server, and again, the experience wouldn't be the same. Not for them, and not for those that hope they would come back. Sure, it has the potential to make a new style of classic, but it would not be the instant classic that people are hoping for.

    If they want to make a retro shard, then by all means, do so. Pick a time, and plop it in to the server farm, and, other than semi-annual hardware inspections/updates, walk away from it.

    Because in order for it to truly be classic, there would have to be one more person involved, and Hell will freeze over before we ever see the real Lord British again.
     
  21. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    O.k. I wasn't going to post this question until tomorrow morning but the vote in the poll started by Petra Fyde is 3 to 1 in favor of the Second Age and just shy of 5 to 1 in favor of a pre-UO:Ren Classic Shard.

    This is just to satisfy my curiousity. I don't intend to debate the point here. I expressed my opinions in the topics that got closed. Those opinions are now old news.

    From the other forum topics the main flow of discussions made it clear many thought Trammel had been a very bad idea. Why is having a Tram facet as part of the Classic Shard such a bad thing? It would draw more players to the Classic Shard, wouldn't it?

    This is a topic that has drawn strong comments. Please keep in mind we have to keep this thread flame free or we lose it. If you want to express a strong opinion concerning my question to me, PM me, please.
     
  22. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
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    It should not be about one playstyle or the other, Many people believe Tram was a great Idea and was needed, The problem was the mistake OSI made back in 2k combining the 2 rulesets on one shard, let alone mirroring the old lands and dungeons while combining the 2 rulesets. thus it made for serious balancing issues that we still have to deal with today, where an item or skill gets toned down for PvP and creates a bigger nerf for the PvMer, if the rulesets were separated then issues like this would not be of a big concern.
     
  23. wills

    wills Guest

    Tanivar,

    I have nothing against Trammel; however, when you have two facets on one shard, you divide the community in an unfortunate way.

    And because it's true that PvMers outnumber PvPers, Felucca is left destitute. This isn't simply from the standpoint of PvP or PKs either. The fact is even crafters flee (though some may maintain a vendor), and likely, every single casual player who maybe doesn't think PKing is such a big deal flees too, because hey, if there's the option, why bother right?

    I'm against the split in the hypothetical classic shard because it would make it that much more difficult to build a thriving community.
     
  24. Ummm...Petra, please take another look at the results from my poll; there was a good reason why I allowed people to have several choices for the ruleset immediately prior to AOS. Without separating the major changes, you can't really get an idea of what people liked pre-AOS and what they really, really hated. Your poll only gives people one choice for the pub 15/16 era, during which UO's subscriptions had risen from the T2A era level of about 125,000 to over 250,000 as of the month that AOS was published, the most subscribers that it ever had, before its rapid decline to 175,000 in the 6 months post-AOS. Your poll narrows that era to just one choice: Pub 16 with power scrolls. Only 3 people on my poll voted for pub 15/16 era with power scrolls. It was the LEAST popular of all the choices available. People who played that era generally loved playing UO, but hated the power scrolls, one of the early ideas that the AOS-era Dev crew pushed through. That's why I split the choices for the pub 15/16 era, to get an idea of exactly how unpopular those scrolls would be among the people who want a classic shard.
    I did the same with UO:R; the two major changes at the time were the factions and Trammel. Unlike the pub 15/16 era, though, I wasn't clear enough in the choices; a few people had forgotten that UO:R was factions, as well as Trammel. I don't think most people care one way or the other about factions vs. order/chaos, anyway, though.

    From the results of my poll and the original one, I believe that the results show:
    1. The people who want a classic shard agree, and the first rapidly declining, then slowly dwindling subscriber base since its release show, that any classic shard should be pre-AOS.
    2. Players are about evenly split about whether it should be Felucca only or include Trammel.
    3. Whether they prefer T2A or Pub 16, practically none of them would want power scrolls included.
    4. Most of them probably don't really care much whether it's T2A, UO:R or pub 15 era. Just as long as it's pre-Age of S##t, as it was called by the majority of the player base at the time, and continues to be called by all of the former players who quit because of it.
    5. The vast majority of players don't want item insurance on a classic shard.

    The truth is that Trammel didn't ruin the game. Post-Trammel, UO received a huge influx of new PvM players, and UO's subscription numbers kept climbing pretty steadily all the way up until AOS. In fact, UO's subscriber base was at its all-time high when AOS was introduced, about twice the level it had been at the beginning of the T2A era, and about 65,000 more than the 185,000 subscribers the day that Trammel was introduced with UO:R.

    However, even before the actual release of AOS, the AOS Dev team had already done irreparable damage, which was sure to destroy the game, in the form of the power scrolls: UO had always had fairly balanced combat, but power scrolls made combat extremely unlevel, and shortened battles from minutes to a couple of seconds, with the scrolled out PvPers being practically unkillable by normal PvM players who had ventured to Felucca in hopes of getting a scroll, and the Devs broke the skill gain system when they introduced the scrolls and made some skills extremely hard and sometimes impossible to gain from low levels. Then they removed power hour and added the 8x8 and anti-macro systems, which made it even harder for new players to join the game and compete in either PvP or PvM in a reasonable length of time.

    When the AOS dev crew admitted that they had tried to make UO more like Diablo 2, they should have been fired on the spot for incompetence, and the ruleset should have been changed back to pre-AOS.

    It may be too late now. While UO doesn't release subscription numbers anymore, most esimates are that there are now under 100,000 subscribers. That's less than the number of players on just one pre-AOS free shard.
     
  25. Evlar

    Evlar Guest

    Amidst all the debate about what constitutes "classic" in UO terms, an excellent post.

    I've played since early 1999, so was around pre-trammel. Although a late-comer by some standards, I bought the game whilst on a trip to the US and took it home to play in the UK. Incidentally, I rarely ever saw the game for sale in shops in the UK at that time, but had simply read about it online.

    Up until this year, I always played on Great Lakes. I was away for a few years, intermingled with some time on "free" shards, but came back around beta-time for Stygian Abyss. Of all the many people I knew from Great Lakes, upon my return, I only met one person that I knew who played back then.

    I think the most fun I had was trying to organise a joint -Y- & GOF guilds hunt at the Abyssal Infernal. It didn't go quite to plan, as it was inevitably raided. Some people took that badly, some had fun, but it was great to see two large guilds working together and giving it a go.

    PvP was actually pretty good on Great Lakes, mostly because of the active factions guilds. I've never been particularly into PvP unless there's a point to it. Participating in the factions battles for the sigils, defending a base, gave it some purpose for me. I inevitably "died" more than I "won", but it was more about helping the team achieve their objective for me.

    Due to two factors, petty abuse from certain members of the guild I was in towards other players, then problems with my internet connection, I upped and moved to Europa. I joined a great bunch of people at SAOR who made moving shards much easier for me. They were certainly one of the most cohesive and friendly guilds I've seen in a long time, much of which stems from their excellent leadership by Cailleach. It almost took me back to the classic days I enjoyed so much about UO.

    You might note my use of the word "almost" there. This is certainly no detriment to the superb people of Europa or SAOR guild, but more to do with the game itself and the effects of a game that I feel is now totally item driven.

    Clearly everyone has their own view on what's right or wrong with UO these days, but for me, it's simply my view that I just don't enjoy the feeling that the importance of items have paramount importance over everything.

    Most talk in-game seems to revolve around what items someone wears or uses. What items they "need". What items they "want". How they can get those items.

    Yes, there's always been "items" (armour, weapons) in the game, but I seem to recall that one's skill played more importance in days gone by.

    Now if you've read this far and you're not bored by my rambling thus far, I would like to point one thing out loud and clear...

    Pre-Trammel for me wasn't about PvP.

    It was just one part of the game. I didn't particularly go looking for it, but I knew it was around and accepted it for what it was. It even added more challenge to the game and gave it an edge, especially when I was out with a miner or crafter wandering between towns. Mostly with those sort of characters, I would simply take flight. That was often fun in itself, evading a marauding PK'er, hell-bent on my destruction. At one time, I even had a miner/warrior, who gave a few reds a surprise they weren't expecting. :twak:

    I actually spent a good portion of my time crafting. I miss the simplicity of crafting from those "classic" days. Now, I see little point to a smith or a tailor, other than them playing a supporting role to the new skill of imbuing. In an item driven world, the customisable aspect of imbuing certainly makes sense. For someone who's not really "into" this item driven world, it just seems like more of a chase for items.

    I was far happier in the days when GM crafted items, were not too far from the "best" loot items. This is before runics, power scrolls enabling "legendary" crafted items. Most people generally wore outfits that were matching, such as a full suit of valorite plate. I remember when they were the aspiration of a PvM warrior character, yet wasn't overly expensive or difficult to obtain.

    Others have mentioned the "balance" and clear difference between armour like leather and studded, plate and mail. They all had a distinct difference based on the type of character you were using.

    I've rambled enough, but suffice it to say, I would love to play a classic UO without all the "items". I would prefer a single facet in whichever format it is presented, which seems to cause the biggest divide amongst those commenting on these forums. Suffice it to say, that with a classic shard, I would hope that the mistakes of the past and knee-jerk implementations would lead to a more considered approach to the non-con PvP setup.

    For me, that would entail bigger guard zones around bigger cities, where PK's and thieves can enter, but always run the risk of a player shouting "guards!" if they're spotted. There would be more provision for housing within cities and guard zones that want it, whilst also enough space for housing outside for those that aren't worried.

    A "classic" for me, would be pre-AOS time-scale, though I'm not against purely "decorative" items being included, because there's some good (and bad) artwork that's been created.

    There's plenty of room for factions (if correctly implemented) or Order/Chaos, with the sole intention of this encouraging team activity.

    Meh... I'll probably think of more, but my "hope" would be pre-AOS "hybrid" type.

    So everyone, please try to keep this thread on track. Discuss the possibilities. Reminisce about what you miss, what you don't. There's no need to flame someone for a difference of opinion. If... just if... there's a possibility that "classic" server options can become a reality, then I feel it will be enhanced more by unity amongst those of us who like the concept, working together.

    If all that EA/Mythic ever see is people bickering and sniping, then I think it's safe to assume, it won't ever get off the ground.
     
  26. Heartseeker

    Heartseeker Guest

    Judging by your poll it isn't a even split at all.

    53 against- 34 for. Hardly even.

    Most of the players pushing for a Classic aren't interested in playing a split world; we have that now.

    Yes the AoS system is a big point and also no insurance; but the be all is to have a world where people have more of a sense of community, and play together in one world like it was originally.
     
  27. Velvathos

    Velvathos Lore Keeper
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    I wouldn't mind seeing a classic server, I wouldn't mind a Pre-AoS server, but come the server, but I have my own vision of a shard, in my opinion, I wouldn't mind seeing modern housing implemented on it... I kinda want to see a shard with OLD style weapons and armor, old rulesets, friendly fire, but with all the current available facets and housing, oh, and of course old guildstones and guild system.. :)
     
  28. @Heartseeker: You're right that more of us want a tram-free classic shard than the number who want a classic shard with Trammel included. However, the point stands that Trammel didn't wreck UO as a growing, thriving game. AOS did. UO did lose some of its market share after UO:R, as other MMORPGs entered the market, but its total subscriptions kept rising. Its total subscriber base actually grew by 25% between the introduction of UO:R and the date when AOS went live.
    http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html

    If you look at the MMORPG subscription data for March 2003, you will see that, when AOS was introduced, UO had over 250,000 players and 5.94% of the total MMORPG market share.
    http://mmogdata.voig.com/voig/ContentList/MMOGDATA/Charts/4.ViewChart?aLanguage=en-us&a5Years=
    If you check the data for March 2004, you will see that, over the course of the year following AOS, UO lost 1/3 of its player base, and its total market share decreased to just 3.7%.
    The last time that UO's market share was available in 2008, it had shrank even more, to just 0.23%.

    The truth is that I am more interested in the idea of a classic shard as a way to keep UO alive than as a way to appease the current player base. And none of the numbers show that Trammel hurt the game. ALL of the numbers show that AOS was an unmitigated disaster, which alienated a large percent of the playerbase and made the game totally toxic to new players, except the years in which "new players" were almost entirely just trial accounts which veterans used to park houses. Anything pre-AOS, with or without Trammel, would be better than a continuation of the "Our decision is final. We're the Almighty Devs. We like AOS and you're stuck with it" mindset that actually stopped all discussions of a classic shard from even being allowed on Stratics for years. If UO is to survive, it needs more subscribers and new players who have a whole world to explore, not just returning veterans who have seen it all before, and come back to see what has changed, then leave again.
     
  29. Queen Amy

    Queen Amy Guest

    The Reset Shard

    I think being a newbie makes the shard feel "classic".

    I have been playing (off and on) since October 97. I regained that "newbie feeling" for awhile when I moved to Seige Perilous a few years ago. Now that I have a fully trained character and millions of gold in the bank I am bored once again. Here is my idea for reviving the feeling of "classic UO":

    --Make it clear up front that the shard will reset every 6 months.
    (Maybe even name it The Reset Shard.)

    --Allow only one character per account.

    --Allow a house on the Reset shard even if the account has a house on another shard -- but houses on the Reset shard do not automatically refresh.

    --Every 6 months, the shard resets: everything is erased and everyone starts over with ONE brand new character.

    This will return the challenge to the game. This will also encourage people to join the shard. Everyone is a newbie every 6 months. New people to the shard are only disadvantaged for a few months, and then they get a fair new start with everyone else at reset. Make the reset dates obvious: January 1 and July 1.

    I will leave it up to others to decide which rulesets should be included on The Reset Shard. I'm partial to the Seige ruleset without factions. To me though, the most important aspect is the time limit. I would find it very challenging and very satisfying to see how much I could accomplish in six months, before the reset. Could I have a castle in that amount of time? A scoreboard at owo.com with who managed what might be fun.

    I do agree that two separate Reset shards would be preferable:
    Trammel Reset Shard and
    Felucca Reset Shard
     
  30. Tom_Builder

    Tom_Builder Slightly Crazed
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    To me classic means anything preAoS.

    I would like to see a skill based game without any of the new items. Ruin to Vanq weps, and the return of the 700 max skills. The return of how resist worked and how the spells like reflect magic worked. I also like how the NPCs worked, drop a pet off at a stablemaster and you have to return to that one to claim it. There are alot of new things added that are nice, but I would gladly give them up for the old game.

    For people who want Tram included, that would be fine with me. But PVP was alot of fun before AoS. Mages were a blast to play, as were fencers and swordsmen.

    I dont know if we will ever get a new shard, but if we do I will play.

    Tom
     
  31. Tom_Builder

    Tom_Builder Slightly Crazed
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    Re: The Reset Shard

    I dont know about a reset shard. It took me over a year to GM smithing in 1999/2000. Even longer for lockpicking. Thats alot of work just to be reset, and if the skills are easier to gain, then I would be bored in a week. May as well just go to test.

    Tom
     
  32. Tom_Builder

    Tom_Builder Slightly Crazed
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    Nicely Said.
     
  33. Evlar

    Evlar Guest

    Re: The Reset Shard

    Sorry, but I doubt that would encourage players to want to play it, let alone stay there.

    If it's worth doing a classic server, it's worth doing something people will want to stay playing, as well as encouraging new players.

    I think if you were to ask the general UO playing populace if they minded having their skills reset to zero every six months, I think it would be such a resounding "No", that the game would be dead in the water.

    I'm more for skills being the more important factor over the item based situation we have now. Take away all the items every six months if you like, but I would like my skills intact thanks :)
     
  34. BlackMagus

    BlackMagus Guest

    The current poll results indicate differently: 70% total for classic, 30% against.

    And as has been said before: there is an inactive player base that left the game because AoS ruined it for them, and they got no vote here. These will add to the classic side.

    Will subscription numbers skyrocket after classic introduction? Probably not. Who cares, it would still be fun!

    Pro classic shard! :thumbup1:
     
  35. Trammel helped syphon off some of the younger players from EQ thanks to it not having PvP.

    While it helped increase sub numbers, it hurt the quality of community by attracting more immaturity to the game.

    Not to mention the fact that Trammel got boring after a while. The thrill and danger that made a dungeon crawl exciting was lost. I remember when I went back to the Feluccian dungeons. In old Wrong at the ogre lords, I ran into a guild of reds expecting to get slaughtered. Instead, they ignored me. Personally, I was shocked. I asked them "What? No trying to kill me?". Their answer: "We're just happy to see people still in felucca. Want to split the lords with us?". I figured, since they arent trying to kill me and are being civil, it wouldnt hurt.

    Then more scripters started to emerge. Then people started bot mining, bot gold farming, bot spawn camping. Before that, the worst scripting I ever saw was from the person who owned a house in back of mine. He was a mage who would summon water elements over and over in his house with his character running on a script.

    Well, thats because UO started offering WoW style game play. UO became WoW 2d with AOS.

    The problem is Trammel brought the type of players that favor AOS. Trammel was the first step by EA in trying to suckle from the teat of mainstream EQ clones.

    To make a good, strong classic server, you need to forget about splitting the server into Felucca and Trammel. It needs to be Britannia and nothing else. The Lost Lands were okay because they were just another area to adventure in. It didnt hurt anything or drastically change the game. I wouldnt even mind Ilshenar as long as it allows reds.

    But the original rule sets have to be in place to make the sever truly classic.

    That means:

    No Trammel
    No Power Scrolls
    No BoDs
    No Runic crafting tools
    No Item insurance
    No Pet bonding
    No Followers
    No elemental resists
    No LRC or other item overpowerments
    No custom housing
    No Paladins, necromancers, ninjas, samurai, or elves (Unless you RP'd as an elf, which some players did very well back then)

    And yes to:

    100.0% Skill cap on all skills, no higher
    225 stat point pool, no more than that
    Vanq/power/force/ruin maigc weapons
    Invul/fortification/defense/hardening magic armor
    Open PvP outside of town/guarded areas
    Britannia and the Lost Lands (T2A)
    All skills have a place and are viable
    Risk and reward
    Dungeon Crawls, I mean real dungeon crawls full of danger and the unknown, but so much fun!

    The ONLY thing I would even consider bringing over from the post trammel days would be the ability to set skills and stats to raise/lower/lock. that was a good fix for the problem of GM'd out skills being robbed from when someone say dropped a campfire and your camping skill would start to take from a GM skill.......

    ........that and the ability for tailors to repair leather armor and make bone armor. And for carpenters to be able to make clubs and be able to repair them and staves along with wooden shields. And for bow crafters to be able to repair bows.

    Simple fixes that improve the game.

    I have to disagree with you here. Veterans arent simply going to show up, see whats changed then leave. If anything, they are coming back to see if things are truly classic and will stay.

    The reason the old vets will stay is because they will have finally gotten what they have been begging for since Trammel. Why would they want to leave that? They have played everything else thats out there and the post AOS UO and dont like it. They arent just going to walk away from the chance to play the UO they've wanted for years.

    The vets will return and stay.
     
  36. @Longest Journey: There is a good reason why the game became remarkably similar to what WoW became during Evocare's tenure as lead designer. Evocare was the lead designer from 2001-2004, and he was responsible for AOS, power scrolls and making skills MUCH harder to gain. He admitted that his favorite game was Diablo 2, a WOTC game and the precursor of WoW. Many of his "best" ideas for UO came from his experiences while playing Diablo 2. In fact, he left his position as lead designer for UO in the wake of the crashing subscription numbers, to take a junior designer position at WoW. As a result, WoW received the rest of the "great, game-changing" ideas he had for UO. Personally, I'm not sorry to see that all of those "great" ideas went to WoW. I really don't think Evocare is a moron, despite the amount of complaints I have against practically all of his ideas and designs. His ideas were just not suited for UO. Evocare is ideally suited for WOTC products like WoW and Diablo (his favorite game while he was lead designer for UO), abut they were never really suited to the UO playerbase.

    @ Queen Amy: We have that now. It's called the test shard. The last one stayed up for several months. I honestly don't know why UO doesn't keep a persistent test shard so we can try out new templates and just enjoy some PvP or PvM gaming when we only have a few minutes to play. People are willing to play on the test shard because we can instantly set our skills to max and just go out and play. If we had to actually work our skills, though, then lose them, I can't see anybody playing a shard that they expect to be wiped. You would have the whole shard to yourself.
     
  37. Its funny. I was just looking over the poll posted by Petra Fyde and two of the poll opitions are the same thing. Option #2 for T2A and option #3 for the murder count are the same era. So, when you think about it, people have two poll options for T2A.

    Now, option 2 has 39 votes and option 3 has 19. Add them together, since its the same era, and you get a total of 58 votes.
     
  38. Sadrith Mora

    Sadrith Mora Guest

    I believe if they are seriously considering making a classic shard for UO, it should be post T2A, and well into 1999 after they installed long term murder counts, and gave thieves more of a role-played structure.

    Anything prior to T2A back in '98 -'97 is not a good period as it was just too hardcore causing a lot of anti-social behavior and complaining. I don't think we need to go back that far especially if you want to attract any kind of diverse community again other than PvP types.

    As for AoS, these issues deserve their own thread, really. While it may be considered classic to some, it was still post renaissance, and i feel any changes there should be applied to the current main shards only - if at all, and if the majority can come to some kind of agreement on the issues.

    If both of these era's can be addressed individually, it will target 2 distinct groups of players lost in hopes of regaining subscriptions. And that would be the only real reason to do anything at all, otherwise it will just continue to fragment the current community. So it's a big decision for the devs to have to make.

    Anyway, here is an interesting article i found discussing the state of the MMO industry:

    http://www.warcry.com/articles/view...O-Industry-Luminaries-On-The-Genre-Its-Future
     
  39. Unsatisfied

    Unsatisfied Guest

    Mate I dont think anyone in favor of the classic shard is asking for AoS to be a part of it... so dont worry about that.
     
  40. Actually, Trammel was the first step in the complete and utter nerfage of the Thief. The beginning of their end if you will. They couldnt steal from anyone in trammel. Their role became nothing more than that of a "rare" gatherer, forced to steal rare hanging herbs from herbalist shops, those rare copper, gold, and iron wires from blacksmith shops, and the rare foods from the provisioner shops.

    And that is a role that gets very boring very quickly.

    This is backwards. You didnt start seeing the anti-social behavior until after trammel. There was no unifying force behind the people. You started to see more and more of the "Im more uber than you! Nyah Nyah!" attitude and more and more of the Lone Wolf style of player.

    Before Trammel, people had reasons to join guilds and work together to defend against reds, or to pull off serious dungeon crawls. After Trammel, you saw more and more people soloing dungeons and the size of guilds shrinking more and more.

    AoS doesnt need to be discussed. Theres already 27 sparsely populated servers of AOS running right now.

    As it stands now, AOS has been the main focus for the past 8 years and all it has done is drive people away. It hasnt attracted new players, it hasnt attracted old players, and its not increasing UO's standing among the MMO community. Bringing AOS into a classic server discussion is moot.

    AOS has been done to death. What else can be said about it? It needs a mountain of fixes and more problems keep cropping up every day? Well no kidding. Thats been the story for 8 years now. Whats changed? Whats improved? Nothing. Its been the same story over and over. Problems problems and more problems.

    Its time for a clean slate. Classic servers are that clean slate.
     
  41. A question for those wanting a classic shard, but the inclusion of Tram:

    Would you be interested in a Fel ruleset (the way the game was pre-Ren) if a viable solution to rampant PKing could be introduced either at the launch of the shard, or shortly after??

    I have several ideas on how this could work, but rather than post some long winded thread (I know, right? Me? Keeping it short?) I'd rather keep the question loose and open for now.
     
  42. Ugh, seriously, what servers did people play on that there was this rampant pking? I mean, I played Atlantic, Catskills and Chessapeak, during peak hours when A LOT of people were on and I rarely ran into reds. I died more from guild wars, monsters, and traped dungeon chests combined than I did by PKers. Over my 3 years, from November 20, 1997 up till February of 2003 when I left Felucca, I was PK'd, grand total across the three servers I played on and the 15 characters I had, no more than 15 times. And it wasnt 15 times in a row. It was 15 times across the period of years.

    And even then, the reds I did encounter, usually worked alone or in pairs.

    I...I seriously dont know where people keep getting it from......

    Anyway, they had a pretty good system with the perma red. The best form of dealing with reds is player enforced justice. Because, when you think about it, the only way to keep any sort of problem in check is if the players can deal with it directly, as opposed to relying on an artifical game system to protect them.
     
  43. Sadrith Mora

    Sadrith Mora Guest

    Longest Journey,

    There was rampant pk'ing, rampant thievery, and even harrassment back in the days. If you would look through the old UOHOC chats back in 1998-99, it will verify for you that these issues not only existed, but the devs were well aware, and planned to resolve them.

    I don't know why you try to discredit what people have to say. These are actual facts. Look it up.
     
  44. I have really only played Atlantic and SP. I have been Atlantic since day 1, and I can say, PKing on Atlantic was always a problem. Thieves used to be such a problem in Trinsic that you basically couldn't use the banks on the ground...and most people had to run out of the entrances to Trinsic and immediately hit the woods because there so many PKs just hanging out on the road waiting and killing anyone that came by.

    The crossroads was another spot that PKs were just totally in control of.

    I loved classic UO, but at the same time, I have not forgotten what it was like. There were plenty of PKs on Atlantic...plenty.


    I agree completely. That was the entire concept behind my guild PoV. At one time, back in 1998, we were one of the largest Anti-PK guilds on the shard.

    That sense of good vs. evil, that sense of players helping players is what I miss about the old open PvP model.

    I think the devs were on the right track with perma red, and I think they had a good thing with the bounty system...but too many reds had blue alts.

    Again, I didn't really want to get too deeply into specifics. I was really asking the people that want a Classic Shard, but also want Tram, if they would consider a Fel only shard (which I hate even calling it Fel...Fel is something the devs made up to call the original lands. Felucca is the name of one of the moons...and to me, it should have stayed that way...but I digress) if there was something in place that would curtail rampant PKing. That could be anything from incentives to anti-PKers, to one-red-all-red account rules...I certainly wouldn't wish to see some artificial mechanism put in place, like the one we got with Tram.
     

  45. Yep...see the "Good vs. Evil" system that was never introduced on the regular shards. This was part of their pre-Tram solution. I would have much rather they tried that than what they did.

    I think there was a solution to the problem there, but that the devs took the easy way out instead.
     
  46. Sadrith Mora

    Sadrith Mora Guest

    Just to clarify, i don't think there should be a discussion of a classic pre-AoS w/ trammel shard. Any changes to AoS mechanics should be applied to the current main shards, if at all possible.
     
  47. Velvathos

    Velvathos Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

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    I agree with everything here except for No Custom Housing.. Custom Housing is great, but I would only go as far as AoS if it was pre-tram, so we wouldn't be able to use any Tokuno style walls or roofs, etc, or gargish..
     
  48. JoeBlow88

    JoeBlow88 Guest

    Anything prior to T2A back in '98 -'97 is not a good period as it was just too hardcore causing a lot of anti-social behavior and complaining. I don't think we need to go back that far especially if you want to attract any kind of diverse community again other than PvP types.


    Typical trammelizationed comment.

    If Moongate or Luna / item lightning runner pvp is your thing please dont quote about old time pvp , it was hard fun and yeah you lost yout stuff so what , people were just not used to lose anything back then and complained and got the result they have now ,

    A billionaire ninja paladin samurai with a castle who one hit kill dragon surely will find old times hardcore but hey you lost an elite chainmail tunic of hardening wich you looted off a lich ! nothing you can re-equip in under 15 minutes.

    Nowadays people are used to the law of ok i pvped and lost something , heck i lost 4 billion in cargo in eve online just last week due to pirating and congratulated the pirates who did it , took them about 3 hours to scan me down and they did a good job , am i happy no but i was making alot of money crafting there was a challenge to it survivor gets rich , wussy stays home , you get ganked OK it happens get back on your feet and either continue to make profit and run the chance to get pked or switch to something else.

    UO went the other way , lets cut any danger reward everyone with everything.

    Nowadays im sure you log in the game and can hardly have a discussion with anyone back then it was hardcore in a way because you needed

    Items ( didint turn u from a peon to a god but added like 30% efficacity)
    Skills ( character in game , 80 skills you were effective for combat )
    Personal skills ( need a minimum brain )
    Friends ( clan , guild ,people you know , most important)

    Next time you log in just try to have a conversation with a stranger in game ( if you ever can )
    and then remember how back then it was so important.
     
  49. Santa Claus

    Santa Claus Visitor

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    Why would a classic shard draw more people off the existing shards?
    My assumption would be that most people playing now sort of like what AOS brought and the changes that happened.
    Would a classic shard not rather aim at customers who quit because of certain changes?
     
  50. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Why would people pay for something they can get for free? I am not sure why everyone seems to over look the fact that the old players are either already enjoying their "classic" shard, or are not coming back. The few of us that have survived either 1) won't be enough to sustain a shard, or 2) will not play due to fact 1. I guess there is a slight argument for new players who are looking for that type of experience but I am not to sure.

    I find it funny how people even start to define a "classic" shard, you have 2 options either EVERYONES idea of a classic shard is "classic" or day 1 launch is classic, anything else is hypocritical as you are saying only your view point could possibly be "classic" as I have said twice already (not sure in what thread tho) my "perception" of "classic" is anything pre-aos, I am not against day 1 launch, I am not against pub 16 (altho I powerscrolls were a bit of a huge addition, but if I'm going to complain about anything I will complain about pub 13 (that's right runics)) so long as it is pre-aos I do not care, all tho admittedly I do not see my self playing on any flavor of "classic shard" but anything could happen. meh...that's all I have for now.
     
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