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Comparing tamer vs. non-tamer stat requirements

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Hunters' Moon, Jul 14, 2012.

  1. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    Maybe a past or present Dev can chime in on exactly why tamers have always gotten a pass on stats when it comes to healing and commanding their pets. To heal myself of other with 'healing',dex is taken into account to see how fast the heal will trigger. Why is not so for the tamer? It takes mana(INT stat) to cast spells and use specials effectivly. "All kill" requires no mana to use.Why doesn't it? I have always been curious as to why the tamer template(3 skills,300-360 points) gets a pass on stat requirements.
     
  2. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    I guess the excuse stands..it's still the longest skill to gain


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  3. Multani

    Multani Journeyman
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    Not all tamers have high mana? That would be silly to make 'All kill' use mana.
     
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  4. weins201

    weins201 Certifiable
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    :sad2: Awe Hunter are you being serious bringing this out? Ok I hope you are ready! :flame:

    300 skill points leaves what 400 more so you can PvM very well but a true tamer in PvP only uses about 200 Skill points. (left) :eek:

    Now to heal a pet it take 4 seconds! :( Dexers can cross heal in 2 :) (right)

    There are dexer and mage temp that scew their dex int or str down too 15 to 20 points. (Jab) :sleep2: If you are a Mage Dexterity should be as important as Intel as manipulating the components is as important (Jab) :coco:

    Commanding pets is at best a nightmare espically after the last patches. (block) :whip:

    (Upper Cut) Now you want to say that just because I am a Tamer I need to have what at least 50 Dex? :pancakes: Tamers are not the only skill a tamer has , Tamer/Mage, Tamer/Dexer, Tamer/Bard, etc, and in those templates you HAVE to have Stats!!:gee:

    You argument has no basis since NOT one tamer walks around with just 300 - 360 points in just taming. (KO) :scholar:
     
  5. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    Well there was a time when tamers in uo needed 40 dex to vet heal in 2 seconds.
    But one day that just disappeared with no word from the high command.
     
  6. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    You're only half right about that. The tamer half of the template is not burdened by stat balancing. While the mage,bard,dexer side is. Good try but you fail.
     
  7. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    Poisoning,lock picking, and detect hidden. Try again.
     
  8. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    No offense but you just arent making sense.

    Mages without parry have been running on ridiculously low dex for years. It has always made it much easier for them to build elite suits but so what.

    As long as all templates can get enough stats to be effective its a non-issue imo.

    I personally think tamers are gimp in pvp but its no real big deal to me. You just have to be a bit more creative when fighting them.
     
  9. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    What do mages with parry have to do with this?
     
  10. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    Tamer I guess could use some stats up..but the problem is ok so if you "all kill" it takes 20 mana..but if you all guard me all follow me..when your pet attack what then? Nothing..in pvp u don't even nessasarily say all kill all guard me and u attack and when flagged it usually attacks although I maybe be wrong as tamer are for tram not fel so I've yet to roll one and never plan to


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  11. Ashlynn_L

    Ashlynn_L Lore Master
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    I don't really see an issue with taming, especially not lately given all the other skills and options. Tamers have always been powerful but that gap has closed a lot in recent years. I'd just like to see pure warriors (weapon skill + healing, no bushido or chivalry types) and mages get a buff (and mages did slightly, but I suppose I am thinking "specialisations" or mastery abilities like bards got).
     
  12. Mr. Smither1

    Mr. Smither1 Seasoned Veteran
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    I was told by a tamer that with 120 vet and 120 lore he gets 1 sec bandie heals on his pet is that true?
     
  13. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Inquisitor
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    I know of no legal way to get 1 sec heals on a pet. Even my archer tamer with 150 dex can't slap a bandie on that fast.
     
  14. Nexus

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    I trained Poisoning in 3 days after training an alchemist up and saving all the kegs I needed, lock picking and Cartography together in 24 hours, detect hidden I've not done, but that's 2/3's of your arguments gone.
     
  15. Nexus

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    There isn't Vet was capped with a 2 second time regardless of dex.
     
  16. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    How many kegs? How many doses of poison did you apply to daggers in those three days? How many thousands,hmm?
     
  17. virtualhabitat

    virtualhabitat Lore Keeper
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    One does not have to chase down thousands of wandering daggers to poison them.
     
  18. Nexus

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    Well let me put it this way when one of my guildies decided to do poisoning I told her to friend me to her house and I'd drop off my empties. I tiled the first floor of a 18x18 with empties. So I'd say something like 200 kegs or so. That's something around 20,000 does of poison.
     
  19. Nexus

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    Nope not any more all you need is 1 dagger.
     
  20. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    No,you just have to sit there at the Jhelom farm and wait for the next bull to spawn.
     
  21. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Tamers have an obvious advantage in a lot of ways, but they lack versatility and damage output and are helpful tanks. It's probably fine as is so long as tames don't get any stronger.
     
  22. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Honestly with how easy it is to get SOT's no skill is hard to raise, so that doesnt really apply anymore.
     
  23. Lady Bleez

    Lady Bleez Journeyman

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    My tamer would really hate it if "all kill", or all follow" started taking mana. Considering how bugged the pets are lately and how much you have to spam just to get them to listen sometimes. I'd be out of mana before I ever actually needed to heal or fight.
    If we are gonna start charging stats for speaking, can we go after all the smack talk in general chat next?
     
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  24. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I need stamina to run with my GD because I'm on foot. I would have no problem with a dex requirement for maximum vet speed. Mana requirement for commands is illogical to say the least.
     
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  25. weins201

    weins201 Certifiable
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    Not my point,:whip: my point was and still is there is not on Tamer out there who just has 360 points in taming. :gee: You Have to have more skills. If all you were was a tamer you would get mangled!:gun: Seriously your point is, :scholar: well pointless. So what you want is if I command a pet is uses Mana? Say, "Vollum Kill" and that costs 3 mana? :loser: ROFL By far one of the most off the wall and outrageous ideas I have ever heard.
    That would be tat-amount to costing skill point to change weapons in the middle of a fight, say you have a bone havarster in your hands an in the middle of the fight you want to change to the bladed staff, As a fighter I would mangle you the moment you even try and sheath your havarster and try and pull the long arm off your back. If you change weapons like that then you should just have to DROP your weapon on the ground, if you lose i get your weapon and you will lose as while you are dicking around i would run you thru.
     
  26. Herman

    Herman Seasoned Veteran
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    Tamers need a book just like bards and these taming spells will eat mana
     
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  27. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    I think it is cause the tamer is a ranger so you have the mana needed to make the mage or the dex needed to make the fighter.
    So if you say you need dex to use vet then you remove vet from the mage tamer just as you make it so you need mana or int you remove the fighter. Maybe this is more something to do with stats them self like allowing some type of cap change where it does not effect things like they do now and you could add to things like str or int and not change mana or hits. So then those could be used in more ways as to say so much str is needed for a vet heal rather then mana or dex. Also the fact that some skills like vet seem to be losing ground to magic heals tells me that vet needs to do more like the healing is doing where it can bypass poison with one bandages and make the heal as well as a boost in the heal it self for vets with high skills in taming and lore.

    I think its a good ideal to think of new ways to use stats cause in a way when ppl yell they do use str or some dex to make that yell heard. I would think if you did alot of yelling it would make you tired or you might lose your voice even tho women do not seem to have that problem. o_O I would think using mana would be more for something of int not just saying something so maybe if you had some kind of focus yell that would make pets act even more powerful for a short burst Like a move you use in other skills. Like A set of commands like tear them apart. Or hold them still, bite hard or even breath fire or something. Then I could see it using steady mana like a bard song. All kill is vary basic tho for like dogs you can train them vary easy to guard or attack with key words so I would think the pet would be more effected with those basic commands then the owner.
     
  28. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    Illogical? How so? Simply because it isn't liked and it would balance things more doesn't mean it isn't logical.
     
  29. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    Then you'd have to plan your lmc and mana regen better,right? Just like mages and dexers are required to for balance.
     
  30. weins201

    weins201 Certifiable
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    Why do you keep insisting that Taming is the ONLY skill Involved with a Tamer?:flame: As stated before there is NOT ONE tamer out there that doesnt have other siills tied to the template. And in doing so has give up on the complimentary skilled used by other templates. If you are a Tamer/Dexer you most definatly balance and manage your dex/str, If you are a tamer mage you balance and manage your Str/int. You have failed consistantyl to validate you reasoning!!!!:loser: Please tell me how it is imbalancing that not having mana used to give a pet a command. If you can validate that I might, MIGHT entertain your ridiculous idea. It is illogical because it make NONE, ZERO, NILL sense to have you yell a command require mana, now if i could telepathicly command my pet maybe.
    My Guess is you were man handled by a tamer in PvP this wouldn't be brought up for PvM so lets also say that if you have chivalry you CANNOT have Necromancy!!! the two do not mix.
    Also if you are in any animal for you cannot hold ANY type of weapon.
    Also if you are on a mount or flying a small weapon (dagger, kryss, scepter) are usless and cannot be used for.
    This is really a terrible idea. Learn how to PvP against a tamer and separate the pet and handler.
     
  31. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    Most tamers are already planning their lmc and mr, because most tamers are also mages or bards, or they're planning stamina and dex bonuses because they're archers or melee fighters.

    Would you have it require mana to command summoned earth, fire or water elementals too?
     
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  32. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    OK HOLD THE PHONE!!!!!

    Hunters' Moon.... dear as a tamer of quite a few years... 15y's last count... I have tried every combo of stats on a tamer there is.... Dont go there kiddo with the mana bit.
    The average tamer can be made in under 24 to 48 hours to gm and these days wiht imbueing and that I can get a tamer to 105 in under 24 hours. Running a GD no less. But the one thing I cant do is get the stat's needed to stand up against things in that time fraim. I can atest that you need at the very least 20 in dex for a good tamer and the str to run with one is vital. I have had my dragon in pvping way back in the dark ages of uo.... and I can tell u one thing ..thank heaven i was a 100 in str and mana!

    This is why I get so angry at some of players posts here is the fact EVERYTHING is done to the pvp/factions liking.
    I hate to tell you this but ask the majority of player on they dont like to pvp It has pushed off too many players of the game due to changes yelled from the rafters about pvp and how a set class of players are over balanced...
    This is how we went down that road before.... (all you old farts like me who been here from the begining know this one well)
    First time the Dev played with skills and stats was due to the cry that went out that Mages were too powerfull...... so the second dev team tried to balance it.... ultimate fail.
    It sent a few players to the door and they didnt come back.
    Next was the dexers......my poor macer was decamated... all cause it was now in the top slot of power left by the mages.... again the scissors came out and oops they niped them a bit too close in the neutering and well dexers were singing high C for years.....
    Every time one of this group has yelled and pointed fingers to one class as being over powerd or outclassing the others in pvp the rest of us suffered the loss. Non-pvp's are tired of it.
    Some of you will say well pvp runs UO..... no it dont.
    It's just your whats left after you scream your fingers off at a slight you cant beat a class up to a pulp. Tamers have been chomped and chewed up in pvp... ok GD's gave them back some edge at times.... but stop the madness.
    I for one hope Mesanna was serious and dumps factions in the toilet where it belongs and puts back chaos and order.... pvp has been part of uo from the beginning but it belongs back in that old system so the rest of us can have some peace and quite.
     
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  33. Lady Bleez

    Lady Bleez Journeyman

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    I was being sarcastic. I already do manage them since I am a tamer/mage. There is not a "pure tamer" out there. No one is running around on a template of only those 300-360 points so your whole point is well...pointless. True that the taming skills don't use the stats except for stamina to keep up with greater dragons or high hit points to survive a hit from an angered beast. I was going to say mana to gate those unbonded beauties to the stable but that would be dipping into the mage skills so it doesn't count I guess. So since those skills take only half of your total skill points it is the other half that you fill up that require the stat balancing.

    I would be fine with using dex for max vetting. No issues there. Tamers are not as overpowered as they once were so I'm not sure what your trying to balance out exactly.
     
  34. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Because its not a spell. Its just saying something. Why would saying "go kill that" take mana? Do you feel your essence draining when you tell your dog to fetch a stick?
     
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  35. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I think the point is that for the comparative power level tamers need very few skills when compared to any other "class". I think everyone is aware that tamers have other skills.

    And it's true. Tamers have far more flexibility in their suits and in their skill set than any other standard roll. It's all because of the meat shield of course. All the other classes need to invest in skills to stay alive, the tamer doesnt need those skills nearly as much, and similarly the tamer suffers least when wasting suit properties on luck.
     
  36. Herman

    Herman Seasoned Veteran
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    Dont know about that i rather be a 360 skill mage than a 360 skill tamer if that was your point Uvtha
     
  37. Nexus

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    And like Lady Storm mentioned this only really has an effect on the PvP side of things. GD's are honestly a joke in PvM, any respectable tamer with a grain of insight knows that in PvM a Greater Dragons damage output is inferior. Doing dread horn, you are better off with a Beetle/Kitsune or a Beetle/Mare combo. Travesty? Break out that little used Reptalon. Stygian Dragon... Don't bother taking any Dragon type pet. When you don't have the big "Meat Shield" in front of you because you are using pets that actually gets the job done effectively, then those support skills come heavily into play. Myself I run Hiding, Stealth, and Magery it's purely defensive yet effective. Other people add skills that let them boost damage output on their pets through Discordance for example, or have direct damage skills themselves. But the truth of things is without the investment in those additional skills and management of stats to support those skills you have one of two things. Either A) a very Weak Tamer, or B) a Very lazy tamer running around with a Greater Dragon.

    The problem isn't Tamers it's the pets that have come into play, Greater Dragons, and to a lesser extent Cu-Sidhe are outs for people who want an Easy Button.
     
  38. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    PVM needs to be balanced just as much as pvp. I don't think tamers are out of balance now, they used to be, but not so much any more. They are still the best all around class because they have good damage output and are very safe and can do pretty much anything. They also require the least "core" skills and equips of any basic setup to be effective, outside of maybe bards.

    As for GD's being a joke, that's nonsense. They are easy to keep alive and you can easily solo some bosses with GDs. And when in a group GD's are always very useful to tank and do good damage. They may have a lower damage output than other pet combos but clearly, they are a very very good and very very functional pet for pretty much any occasion. Just because they aren't the best thing in every situation hardly makes them a joke.
     
  39. Cirno

    Cirno Purple Pony Princess
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    I feel my essence draining any time I try to get my cat to do anything I tell her to.
     
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  40. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Well I wager that's a personal preference, but I think they would be comparable in effectiveness. The mage would require far better and more expensive gear, and would be in much greater danger, especially without resist.
     
  41. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Heh :p
     
  42. Nexus

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    Oh I wouldn't say that is 100% true, there are things I can do solo with a Sampire that I'd never consider doing with a tamer. Medusa is one example, while I can slap Gorgon lens' on myself I can't stick them on a pet.
    You're making my point here, they are an Easy Button. Yes they can be used in just about any situation, but doesn't make them, as I was saying best for any situation. There are honestly situations where having 5 polar bears is preferable to a Greater Dragon, yet you see the same people always on foot with a Great Dragon in tow because they have no passion for the play style, or at least not enough of one to fully explore it's possibilities.

    Just as with any play style in UO it's just a reflection of society. While the real world is becoming increasingly populated by the "Precious Snowflakes" that appear to believe that life has to be fair and everything handed to them, all our MMO's are increasingly being populated by the same people who equate easy with successful, and that they deserve and should have every advantage handed to them.
     
  43. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    There are like under 5 monsters in the entire game that I would never bring my tamer (who is basically my only character) to, which is why I said "pretty much everything" not just "everything". I wouldn't solo most bosses with my tamer, true, but that's just because I don't want to sit there and hit the bandage/gheal macro for 500 years or whatever. Sampires may be more effective overall (which I also insinuated) but they cost way more, have a much much much more restrictive template, and are in far more danger than the average tamer.

    What point? That is the topic at hand. If you want to look at the situation and weigh the effectiveness of a skill you need to look at its general usage. You called GD's "a joke" I disagree, they are clearly the best all around pet. If you don't like that, thats another topic altogether, and one I would also agree on. But the fact of the matter is that the GD is the standard, no matter how sad it makes us.

    I never said they were the best for every situation. I said that there were not the best for every situation, but best on average. As for passion for the playstyle... first of all, its not for you to judge the "correct" way to play a tamer, nor is it for me. That's up to the individual, there is no right way or wrong way, other than in your opinion. Second of all "passion" for the playstyle has got nothing to do with the topic on hand that of what you get for the stats your put into the character.

    I mean, its the same as it ever was and will be. This is nothing new. Not in games or life in general. There will always be a path of least resistance, this is impossible to stop. There will always be a "best" pet, or spell, or weapon no matter what you do. When people are trying to accomplish a specific goal they will often times follow that path. This is not explicitly a bad thing. Not everyone has the same capabilities to see all of the different angles or even if they do, not everyone has the same goals, and many peoples desires will fall outside of the norm.
    In a video game, a product that is purely for your entertainment, a developer is best served to keep all of the different paths as similar in resistance as possible. That way people will have many choices to take and many ways to express themselves along their in game journey. When one class or role is blatantly imbalanced for good or bad it devalues the games as a whole.
    But as I said before I don't think taming IS an example of that at this juncture. Its a good low player skill requirement, low (gold wise) cost, safe role to play. You can just skill up 3 skills, grab a GD and be on your merry way as a pretty powerful character fully able to contribute to nearly any hunt. I don't mean to insinuate that there isn't any depth beyond that, but there doesn't HAVE to be.
    Sampires on the other hand are much more complicated (specifically gear wise) and require much much more set up to really work, but the pay off is they can do more, and have one of the highest damage outputs in the game. But that is balance, and that is good.
     
  44. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    It already requires mana.Mages have to cast the spell to have it aid them.
     
  45. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    Show me where I said that in this thread.Stop making stuff up.




    You guess wrong(again).
    I have a "dog archer". You can hold any type weapon in animal form.


    You are seriously jumping to alot of conclusions about my play style and why I want the tamer side of things more balanced. Next time you reply here make sure you use all caps next time. It's a real babe magnet.[/quote]
     
  46. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    if you work up alchemy and poisoning at the same time it goes fast and the cost is minimal.
    you can hit 90 poisoning in 2 days at i think its like 27k in nightshade.
    and your alchemy will be at like 95 by then.
    takes another 2 days to hit GM, but most people dont because it isnt worth it.

    lockpicking takes a day.

    detect hidden takes 2.

    best to do them both right after you make a tinker.
    when your making your tinker, stop at 40, 60, 80 and 100 and make both a lock box and a trap box.
    then youll have a lock box and a trap box at nice intervals.
    then you just work your skills on those boxes.
    i like to switch over half way to the next waypoint (so at like 50, 70, 90)

    but then i have GMed each of those skills on every shard.

    this really has nothing to do with the thread, but i had nothing to add to it but yet i felt to the need to contribute.

    so.... ya i guess ill leave now, hehe.
     
  47. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    If tamers are such an easy, overpowered class to play, why do you see all the other templates so much more often than you see a tamer?
     
  48. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    Ever been to an EM event? Most times all you can see are wings and dragon heads when the EM spawns the mob.
     
  49. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Other templates are more powerful, but more expensive, require more player skill and are more dangerous. Plus some people may just not like it. That said I see a butt ton of tamers in the pvm field.
     
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  50. Cirno

    Cirno Purple Pony Princess
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    EM events are unpredictable; you may have several strong mobs, or a single stronger one.
    In either case, greater dragons are the safest bet owing to their utilising the 5 slots they take up in a more tanking role.
    A whole fight at lower DPS is more effective than 30 seconds of a fight at higher DPS and the rest spent ressing and healing the pets.

    However, if Europa's anything to go by, then only about 10-20% of those showing up to fight are tamers (based on an estimated 30 attending with 3-6 dragons (usually at the lower end)).