1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

Compassion for Pets

Discussion in 'UO Tamer' started by Llewen, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but I'm getting compassion loss messages every time I attempt to rez a pet, but as far as I know, it doesn't do anything. What if compassion lessened skill loss on pets? For example at seeker you only lose a random .1 one on 67% of your pet's skills, at follower you lose a random .1 on 33% of your pet's skills, and at knight, there is no skill loss. How awesome would that be? :)
     
  2. pgib

    pgib Guest

    When a pet dies the tamer (and not the pet) should be put in "stat/skill loss" like a factioner - limited to taming-related skills so non tamer characters wouldn't be penalized for something they shouldn't care about.

    There is a promise behind a taming success (shortly: i'll take care of you) that the death of the pet clearly negates.

    When bonding wasn't here, that promise was enforced by the permanent loss of the pet. We got bonding because the amount of pet-related bugs was so great that keeping a pet alive was just a matter of luck. Due to the mesmerizing lack of lore of our designers, bonding also destroyed the "way of the tamer" and created the mass of "guys with pets" we have today.

    In a system like that compassion could lessen the impact of the stat: reducing the amount of time or the loss or both.

    The problem with skill loss of pets is that it is a penalty applied to the pet (why? The tamer failed, not the pet) and it is not very significant: a greater dragon with 121 wrestling is not that different from a greater dragon with 120.9.
     
  3. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    Actually the difference between 99.9 and 100 is significant, because 100 is a threshold for a lot of skills. There are also a number of skills (no one but the devs know how many, and maybe they don't even), that don't appear on the pet lore gump that are also affected by skill loss.

    All I am saying in the op is that if we are losing compassion when we attempt to resurrect a pet, there should be some benefit to having compassion in the first place for tamers. Skill loss is a punitive measure against tamers, simply for being tamers, that no other template has to deal with. Allowing compassion to mitigate that would be an imaginative use of the compassion virtue with regard to tamers.
     
  4. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,779
    Likes Received:
    434
    Compassion does already affect pets, so I'm guessing that's why it drops when you rez a pet. Taken from Stratics:

    • Players who resurrect pets may restore a certain amount of the pet’s HP
    • Up to 20% of the pet’s Max HP at 120.0% Veterinary and 120.0% Animal Lore
    • Up to an additional 20% based on the player’s Compassion level
      • Seeker of Compassion: 5%
      • Follower of Compassion: 10%
      • Knight of Compassion: 20%
    • Resurrection health bonus is capped at 200 HP
    I kinda think that's enough of a perk, especially if you rez a pet during a battle. But I always think of the skill loss as the alternative to losing the pet entirely, and a kick up the butt for me if I messed up.

    Tamers aren't being penalised for being tamers just because we have a penalty for letting our pets die. Taming is a far superior skill than anything else in UO. OK, I'm biased, but I really find other professions pale in comparison. I couldn't care less what they have that my tamer doesn't and vice versa. I don't think taming can be compared to anything out there :)

    Wenchy
     
  5. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    I agree with you if you mean "fun", when you say nothing can be compared to it. I've seen nothing like it in any other MMO either. I love taming in UO. But if you mean "power", I think you're dead wrong. But we've had this conversation many times, and there's no need to have it again.

    I think the change to skill loss with compassion would be a nice perk in addition to what is already on the table. Clearly the requirements for compassion and pet rezzing are already much more complex and restricted than they are for resurrecting characters, and compassion does a lot more for characters than it does for pets, even though the cost appears to be the same.
     
  6. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,779
    Likes Received:
    434
    No, I mean there is much more to taming than there is to swinging a sword. You need to learn the ropes, not just figure out what the spells or weapons do. We need to spend time training pets up, look after them... To me, that makes taming a whole different kind of skill. But I've never seen it written anywhere that taming has to be on a par with other fighting skills at all times.

    I think we'll have to agree to disagree there. I wouldn't object to minor boosts to compassion, but the skill penalty is a big reward to hand out. And really, this skill penalty thing has cropped up in several guises, so I'm a bit sceptical that this boost to compassion is simply another option you're presenting to get that skill loss removed.

    Wenchy
     
  7. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    This wasn't my idea. I'm posting this on behalf of a friend. I think he didn't want to attract the kind of attention threads like this always attract, so he asked me to do it for him. I'm also tired of reading the same arguments over and over again. This is a simple idea, and I think it is a good one.

    My suggestion to remove skill loss for pets has always been a response to those who have wanted to remove auto stabling. And I'll just repeat what I have said many many times before, there is no other template in the game that is forced to spend up to an hour, and even more at times, retraining to regain full efficacy after a death.

    So yes, I do think there is a strong bias against tamers from certain segments of the UO "culture", and I also think that the skill loss for pets is punitive, and has nothing to do with trying to encourage tamers to be more careful with their pets.
     
  8. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,779
    Likes Received:
    434
    Ok, well as I said, a modest boost to Compassion is ok. This however isn't modest. You're talking about a fundamental feature of the bonded pet relationship. A two part deal - you get a pet which can be rezzed and stay with you forever, in return for a skill penalty if you let it die. You're effectively taking out one half of that deal.

    I'll say it again, taming is not like other skills. And nobody is forcing you to fuss over your pets' skills. You made that choice. You took on the extra work. You see it as a bad thing to have to train your pets. Why blame others for what is going on between your own ears? These things are bothering you because you allow them to. You have a choice to flip the switch the other way.

    This issue seems to hinge on your thinking if I'm honest. You are getting into conspiracy theory territory with your line of reasoning. You're living in the same UO as the rest of the taming community, yet you are the only person I know who perceives this issue in such terms. I don't think it's the game that needs changing. We're talking about content which arrived nearly 10 years ago... If tamers were that bothered by it, we'd have seen a mass uprising a long time ago.

    You can solve this problem for yourself 100% just with a change of mindset. Or stay frustrated by it and keep pinning it on other players, the devs and some shaky comparisons between taming and other completely different professions. But I can't see the devs changing the game just to suit you and your friend. Even 10-20 tamers wouldn't be enough to change something so fundamental to pet bonding.

    Wenchy
     
  9. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    While we're throwing around accusations of odd thinking, you are consistently the ONLY tamer that I know of that objects to my views on these issues EVERY single time this kind of discussion arrives. And you are backed by a full hallelujah chorus of elitist pvp'rs who would like to see tamers out of pvp altogether, and preferably out of the game entirely when you do so.

    I'm a pretty proficient pvp tamer. You ask anyone who has ever pvp'd with me, or against me, when I am playing my tamer, and if they are being honest they will tell you I am effective, and I know what I am doing. I don't go retrain my pets every time they face skill loss because I like seeing nice round numbers on my pet lore gump. I do it because it makes a difference. Pet training is the single most important factor in the power and effectiveness of a pet. Even the pvp'rs who refuse to admit that I know what I am doing will tell you I have some of the nastiest pvp pets in the game, and the fact that I am ocd about their training is one of the biggest reasons why.

    I'm not quite sure where you got the idea that I think you are being dishonest. I think you are stubborn, as am I, and you clearly don't seem to be aware of what the traditional view of tamers is in UO's pvp culture, especially of pvp tamers that don't follow the proscribed and approved pvp template choices. Either you don't pvp much as a tamer, or you simply don't pay attention to in game chat, or for that matter to many of the posts on these forums about tamers by the "in crowd" of UO pvp'rs.

    I could easily fill a book with quotes from my journal, and from posts on these forums that support my so called "conspiracy theory". Quotes from those clearly bigoted against tamers in pvp, and tamers in general. Quotes from those people calling for the removal of tamers from pvp, and some even from the game altogether. Everything from childish insults, to outright lies and attempts at character assassination, with no basis in any kind of reality whatsoever, in game or out of it.

    I'm not making this stuff up, and anyone who has spent any significant time pvp'ing as a tamer in this game knows that what I am saying is true, except for you, apparently. If anyone is accusing anyone of being either dishonest, or deluded here, it appears that you are the one accusing me... Don't force me to start digging around in these forums, or in my journals, for quotes, because I can back up absolutely everything I have said here, and elsewhere on this topic...
     
  10. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,779
    Likes Received:
    434
    Throwing around accusations? Hardly. Please don't act like a victim because I consistently disagree with you on something. Because you consistently disagree with me right back, so it's hardly like that's one sided :D If anyone else disagrees with you too, it has nothing whatsoever to do with me.

    This isn't newbie tamer class y'know heh. I know skill matters, I know losing skill reduces the power of a pet. But death happens. Bad luck happens. You don't *need* a fully trained pet to kill someone. Or even an awesome one. You can lower your standards to a more forgiving level and still PvP. Relax the standards a little, not fuss if things go wrong. But if you choose to be more concerned and pet training becomes a chore...well I don't think I could PvP or PvM if I felt that way. It would get in the way of fun and relaxation for me. I used to be more fussed about it, but I just got to the point in RL where it snapped into perspective. It's not something that's actually worth getting bothered over.

    Um, yes I know PvPers don't love tamers. Kinda hard to live in Fel and not notice. But they don't exactly love stealthers either, or gimplates and well, if you're a thief, you learn the real meaning of hate in Fel. People moan about things they don't like, that applies right over every forum, even the trade ones. I have faith that the devs will ultimately act in a balanced and considered way and try to do what's best for the game as a whole. If I didn't, I wouldn't still be playing...

    See, my thought when you say that, is that you are taking it too seriously and too personally. Every game has forums with posts like that. PvPers are good at raging on boards when they die - that's gaming forums for you. If you took out taming, they'd find something else. The devs are used to how Stratics residents behave, and they know how many tamers there are compared to PvPers. I have had some doubts about the devs at times, but I don't feel at all threatened by the PvPers mouthing off on UHall.

    And I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm trying to suggest to you that you are perceiving things in a way which isn't helping you. I'm trying to point out to you that it's possible to turn this issue around and stop being bothered by it, or at least reduce it to just being a niggle. Because if it really doesn't bother me at all, there has to be a sensible middle ground between your viewpoint and mine, where it's a lot less frustrating.

    Wenchy
     
  11. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    How frightfully Canadian of you.... (I can say that, I'm Canadian... :) )
     
  12. pgib

    pgib Guest

    I share the same feeling.