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Consensual PvP

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Righteous, Sep 9, 2008.

  1. Righteous

    Righteous Guest

    What if instead of having the PvP rule set being applied because of where you are in the world that instead it was set by a trigger. Before you flip out on me and start flaming away, think on this instead. :scholar:

    If you wanted to PvP you go into settings and turn on PvP mode you would change colors to everybody so that they know you want to PvP and you can fight each other to your heart’s content.

    Now then if you perform negative acts like kill stealing (attacking a monster when others have already done significant damage), stealing items or other things that turn you gray now will turn the trigger on for lets say a logged in hour for argument sake and your free game for everyone else that is in PvP mode. Of course I know this will cause a different kind of grief at champion spawns but at least those that don’t have 100 guild buddies to call on can finish a spawn without getting ganked.

    Now you could have other triggers that cause the PvP flag to turn on, like going into certain dungeons or fighting specific monsters like the actual champion of the spawn etc. At least this plan would allow the felucca housing area to be more or less peaceful and maybe not so deserted.

    Righteous
     
  2. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    I can see how this might be nice for all other facets besides Fel. But I don't think this would work for fel.
     
  3. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

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    in Trammel maybe. not in Fel.
     
  4. Bardie

    Bardie Lore Keeper
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    def would b nice for tram, def not for fel
     
  5. DHMagicMan_1

    DHMagicMan_1 Guest

    Why do all these ideas make sense for "Non-PvP" lands currently... but if it's currently "PvP" then making it consentual would be BAD?

    I'm thinking this is simply PvP fans saying we want more targets any way we can get them... but no opportunity to have less targets.
     
  6. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

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    i'm thinking you simply want to turn off your PvP flag and go do a champ spawn without getting attacked.

    and PvP amongst people in Trammel wouldn't be bad probably. I'd definitely turn my flag on and run around in Trammel.
     
  7. Or maybe even a particular facet?

    This game has had consensual PVP since the Renaissance.
     
  8. Righteous

    Righteous Guest

    Just to set the record straight I am not a PvPer, I am more intrested in applying this ruleset to fel. I want PvP to be Consensual not forced on me by a gang of reds.

    Righteous
     
  9. weins201

    weins201 Certifiable
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    If you enter Fel you are consenting to PvP that is the size of it. Stay in Guard zone or tram if oyu dont want to PvP.

    If oyu want more PvP then Join a war guild or make one and see how many people you can war.

    If not stop trying to change what WONT be changed.
     
  10. Ni-

    Ni- Guest

    Kill stealing really isn't as clear cut as stealing or attacking someone. There is too much of a grey area there.

    On another note how would stealing work. PvP-off people shouldn't be able to be stolen from. It seems that theives would only be able to steal from PvP-on people, which would also suggest that the theif's PvP switch should also be on, in which case they should be attackable before stealing.

    I think the facets/shards are clear enough boundries.
     
  11. DHMagicMan_1

    DHMagicMan_1 Guest

    Actually, personally, I haven't played for 3 years and I just returned 2 weeks ago... don't have any friends in game currently and not in a guild so not going to do any champ spawns in the near future.

    I started playing way back in the day when UO was released as a single land... no Tram or Fel... just IDIOT PKs killing all the miners and others and making fools of themselves. I remember when I first moved to Tram and I'm happy to spend 95 percent of my time there.

    Would I like to mine and lumberjack and get 2x the resources? Sure, but I haven't been since I came back because I don't need the resources for anything at the moment and I don't need the frustration of PKs so I'm staying in Tram while I relearn all the new stuff that didn't exist last time I played.

    I still think it's pretty silly (insert more aggressive word here) that the Devs haven't figured out that less than 25 percent of their population prefers the PvP playstyle and giving them sole access to certain assets (PowerScrolls) and huge advantages to other resourses (100% bonus to mining and lumberjacking) is rediculous IMHO.
     
  12. A PvP switch has been requested so many times, it's definitely a dead horse subject. Now, in a lot of cases, a request that gets repeated as often as this one does can often be an improvement to the game. That will NOT be the case for this request.

    A PvP switch will only:
    * Cause a loss in subscriptions with no increase to offset the loss
    * Decrease the amount of choice in this game
     
  13. Righteous

    Righteous Guest

    I wouldn't mind PvP at all if it was one on one, but when the reds run in groups of 3 or 4 it has a tendency to be a little unbalanced. With my idea if one red showed up I would fight him, if four showed up I would turn off my flag and tell them to go away. Of course with most of the PvPers I have dealt with they would spend the next hour or so trying to make my life difficult until they got bored.

    Righteous
     
  14. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    heh it'd be a nice little thing for trammel lands to have like a newbie's intro to pvp system like this but in fel, don't ruin it.
     
  15. If you're concerned about that, why go to Felucca at all? You don't have that concern in Trammel.
     
  16. Righteous

    Righteous Guest

    I go to fel becuase of the advantages in getting items and resources. If Fel was just like trammel and the only advantage to going there was the ability to PvP I would never step into fel. If you would like to discuss removing the advantages of hunting in fel or adding them to tram I would be all for that. Limiting the access to power scrolls and giving double the resources and better items to fel was a mistake in my opinion. All it has done is promote anti-social behavior where those that have decided to join the really big guilds get all the advantages. If I belonged to one of the super guilds I could get power scrolls to my hearts content but since I am not intrested in PvP I haven't tried joining them even if they would have me.

    Righteous
     
  17. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

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    Well I am a PvP'er and I don't want Felucca to have a PvP switch. I think Trammel should have a PvP flag. That type of rule suits Trammel. Not Felucca. You can already come to Felucca and PvP no need for there to be a toggle switch. It's already on.
     
  18. Everything that is Felucca-only is optional. Last I heard power scrolls weren't no-drop/no-trade items.

    If you want to participate in the gathering of those double resources, or power scrolls, then participate. Quit trying to destroy an entire playstyle.
     
  19. Righteous

    Righteous Guest

    I want the ability turn off PvP when I visit fel so that I can avoid those that are just there to grief other players or make it to where they are the only ones to reap the rewards. More than once I have been attacked by 3 or 4 reds while I was getting books of truth. It was the risk I was willing to take, but they where not trying to get the books for themselves they where just trying to prevent me from getting them. And what challenge is it for 3 or 4 people to gang up on one individual. I would think that as a PvPer you would want a challenge not just another meaning less kill count.

    Righteous
     
  20. Implementing that simple request right there would destroy this game for anybody who enjoys the Felucca ruleset. This would lead to a loss of subscriptions. There's nothing about a PvP switch that would bring a slew of new or returning players to this game. All because you don't want to either pay for power scrolls or risk a digital death for them.

    Your idea is a lose/lose business proposition.
     
  21. Righteous

    Righteous Guest

    So you are saying giving access to power scrolls to everyone will be the death nail for UO. Where as I am saying making it fair that a small group can get power scrolls will encourage people to return to UO. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

    Righteous
     
  22. Righteous

    Righteous Guest

    To your comment of destroying a playstyle then I would agree that getting rid of tram would be doing the same, which gets suggested way more often.

    Righteous
     
  23. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

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    no it will just make powerscrolls worthless and the developers will have to come up with something else to do in felucca. as someone said in the other thread, champ spawns are a really cool mini game
     
  24. DHMagicMan_1

    DHMagicMan_1 Guest

    Personally I believe that most (not all) Fels believe that there won't be enough interaction between themselves if it's "strictly voluntary".

    They believe there needs to be significant BAIT (scrolls, resources, etc) provided by game mechanics to lure PK targets into their areas or they won't be able to keep themselves entertained.
     
  25. Righteous

    Righteous Guest

    Much like putting out a salt lick to hunt deer and then using a boozaka to kill them. Not much fun for the deer if you ask me. And thats the point nobody seems to get I have no problems fighting PvP if its one on one at least then I have a chance of winning, maybe a very small one but still a chance, when its 3 to 1 or better odds whats the point. The PvPer isnt there to be entertained hes there to grief the other player.

    Righteous
     
  26. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

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    That's not really what it is. The main idea is that PvP'ers need something meaningful to fight over. More propaganda out of the Trammie Attack Machine.
     
  27. DHMagicMan_1

    DHMagicMan_1 Guest

    Which "PK" gets to kill the Trammie this time?

    The PvP'rs who want to PvP won't be "Lured Away" just because they don't have double resources or exclusive rights on Scrolls any more... so if you really enjoy PvP with people who really enjoy it, then you should find plenty of willing opponants in Fel even if there was a "Switch" that allowed me to "Opt Out" even in Fel.
     
  28. Righteous

    Righteous Guest

    I thought that was what factions was for.

    Righteous
     
  29. The ONLY PvP reward in Fel is powerscrolls. Every playstyle has it's own unique reward and way to obtain gold. PvM has several different artifact groups, both major and minor and can sell those artifacts along with looting monsters for gold. Crafters have their various runics and craftable artifacts that can be sold along with pretty hefty payment for filling Bods. T-Hunters & Fisherman even have their own unique items that are only obtainable by participating in that particular playstyle which sell for millions, along with the regs, spell scrolls and other items in the treasure chests.

    Yet you want to be able to go to Fel and completely bypass their playstyle to obtain the only reward, and the only means of making gold in the game that PvP'rs have, without having to participate in the playstyle that it was put into the game as a reward for?

    Explain how that is fair to that playstyle and how they will make a UO living if they no longer have a market to sell the scrolls to.
     
  30. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    To expound on this a bit.

    This was the topic of the 2nd longest/largest Thread I have ever seen in a MMORPG (The longest thread was one on EQ's Boards).

    It was made clear by Designer Dragon (but not validated), that a PvP switch was technically not possible given the Core Engine that drove UO.

    One must step back and understand there is a fundamental difference between those that choose PvP and those that choose PvM. Those that choose PvP tend to believe there are NO RULES THAT APPLY TO THEM. That they are there to TEACH OTHERS HOW TO BE A MAN (even if your a woman? :) ). Those that choose PvM tend to believe the Rules apply to everyone and that tolerance and cooperation is how things should be.

    Given that the two Groups are fundamentally different, then allowing them to co-mingle will never solve anything. One group will simply Lure Monsters to the others, find some means to have the Game Kill the others.

    It isnt that your idea doesnt have merit, it is rather that the Original OSI Lead Designer said it was technically impossible (not that I believe him as he was seriously PO'd when he said that) and that in the end it wont make people behave in such a manner that the spirit of the change can be fully realized.
     
  31. Righteous

    Righteous Guest

    Power scrolls is not the only reward in fel. They have higher drop rates for event items ie books of truth, virtue armor etc, double resources and more gold per monster killed. It takes quite a while to get enough gold to buy even the cheap 120 scrolls not to mention enough to get eval or magery. I dont have the time to run a vendor any more. UO is become harder and harder for the casual player to play, because we can not compete with those that have no lives outside of UO.

    Righteous
     
  32. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    I don't think a pvp switch would be good for those of us who live in Fel as it would take away freedom of choice. When I leave my home and go for a wander, that guy I stop to say hi to in the woods has the chance to be a good guy or a bad guy, he doesn't have behavioural responses forced upon him.
    The original facet gives you more freedom in your interactions with other players. That's why I like it. The pvp switch is already there in the form of the moongate.
     
  33. Righteous

    Righteous Guest

    Thank you for the insight. Maybe I am just :bdh: I will move on and let this particular subject drop if its not possible. Though maybe the current dev team can make it possible. :) ever the optimist.

    Righteous
    The glass is not half empty or half full the glass is misconfigured for the application.
     
  34. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

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    no one really plays factions everyone does champ spawns, IDOC's, yew gate and duels.

    JC The Builder planned a large factions event but as far as I know there wasn't enough interest. could be wrong
     
  35. Redxpanda

    Redxpanda Lore Keeper
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    Yes indeed! The current PvP system needs changes no question about that but i don't think we will ever see it change to by consent only because a big part of UO PvP is The Element Of Surprize and there will be alot of unhappy people if that is taken away.
     
  36. Please go play warcraft. UO has no place for people like you.
     
  37. DHMagicMan_1

    DHMagicMan_1 Guest

    LOL you know that the VAST MAJORITY of UO players don't PvP, right?
     
  38. Righteous

    Righteous Guest

    Been playing for 10 years I am not going to give up now. Not when I just got settled in and things are getting intresting again.

    Righteous
     
  39. Yalp

    Yalp Guest

    Congrats on the 10 year mark!

    One thing missed in a benefit to being able to toggle a pvp switch.. the ability to reduce the hackers to bystanders. Those that DON"T run the myriad hack programs would shut off their toggle switch, reducing the advantage of hacking, and causing those that gank to sit on the sidelines.
     
  40. It's mouth-breathers like you that populate WoW, not people like the OP.
     
  41. It already exists ... Fel or Siege/Mugen. <shrug>

    Or establish a true, controllable dueling system where 1v1, 1v2 or whatever variant you want can be handled without outside interference.
     
  42. Ken of Napa

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    fixed it for ya ;)

    Also, for what it's worth I agree with you, double resources and power scrolls were added to the game strictly to lure people (read victims) into Fel for PVPers to have as targets.

    That was a bad mistake then and keeping it as such, just compounds the origional error.

    Double resources should be done away with, as well as power scrolls. To late to put that genie back in the bottle, so they should be available in other facets.

    Just one man's opinion but there you have it ;)
     
  43. ElRay

    ElRay Guest

    I think its pretty silly people pull numbers from their behind and then think it makes them look intelligent

    Anyways, a very stupid idea, very stupid. You want a pvp switch?? Put one in tram

    next
     
  44. ElRay

    ElRay Guest

    What a load of crap, there are MANY people who pvp, and live in fel

    Hell, why do you think pvp armor and pvp weapons can sell for 100+mil gold apiece?

    Would it be because the VAST MAJORITY of UO players dont PvP? /end sarcasm

    The only person youre convincing DH, is yourself
     
  45. Sebrina

    Sebrina Guest

    :bdh: Is it dead yet?
     
  46. It's true. While I wouldn't go so far as to say the majority of UO players PvP (from my experience across multiple shards, it's pretty close to 50-50), I'd say that for most of us, PvP is the main reason for staying on UO. UO sure beats WoW and most other MMORPGs in terms of complexity and depth of PvP, basically the strength of UO is in its PvP (imbalances notwithstanding, see "pvp tamers").
     
  47. Beldon

    Beldon Guest

    Powerscrolls are a PvM reward not a PvP reward. You can get powrsrcolls without PvPing, you can not get powerscrolls without PvMing.
     
  48. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    Most Don't PvP that's fact, if they did you wouldn't hear people from the PvP community on here complaining about about how no one ever comes to Fel, and how Fel needs to be revitalized, you'd hear the opposite. The weapons and armor sell for what people are willing to pay not because they are overly rare. If your stupid enough to pay 100+mil for junk I turn out with a bronze hammer I'd be happy to sell it to you, I'm sure no one else is any different.
     
  49. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Initially posted this on a different post, thought it would belong better here.

    A timer based PvP switch:

    1) Caine initiates an attack on Abel (whatever that triggers "xxx is attacking you!")
    2) Attacks would be ineffectual until Abel retaliates
    3) Auto defend doesn't count or do damage. Abel must cast an attack spell at Caine (again, whatever that triggers "xxx is attacking you!") to enable both to damage each other.
    4) Abel has a 1 minute grace period to escape if he doesn't want to fight
    5) After 1 minute, he and Caine can damage each other, unless Caine has hidden himself (I'll explain why)
    6) Other stuff like turning back to blue to each other after a couple of minutes (or if one dies) is unchanged

    Having Caine signal his intention prevents ambush situations where stealth archers ganks unsuspecting players.

    Having Caine remain visible prevents situations where he hides and wait for Abel's 1 min timer runs out, then ambushes Abel.

    The 1 min timer is long enough to allow crafters to escape if he/she wishes. But hopefully not long enough for champ spawn raiders to get looting rights on the champ AND escape.

    Star-room may need to be removed in this case.

    This also allows players to police scripters - need more thoughts on this part, what if the scripter recalls away and comes back 5 mins later when the aggression tag has worn off? Is the 5 min disruption enough?

    Then again, can this be abused to deny areas/resourses? I can think of 1 situation where it can be balanced, but are there any situations that this may not be a good idea?

    The balanced part would be the necro-wither choke point tactic will be rendered less useful. Since raiders can push through now and have 1 min to setup their own defenses.

    Also, prevents res-kills.

    Part of it is like how blue pet training works, they don't damage each other until they turn green (when owner is guilded)

    Speaking of pets, this also apply to pets specifically, tamer pks (note I did not say PvP'rs). If Caine sics his dragon on Abel, the 1 minute timer is activated, Abel can start attacking the pet or the tamer to enable them to damage each other.

    If Abel initiates the attack on Caine or his dragon, he can retaliate with his pet or himself. Auto-defend by his pet via an all guard command also doesn't enable the damage.

    Would this sort of tigger work?
     
  50. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    Oh. Once more someone outside the PvP circle trying to limit PvPers, by making themselves invulnerable to attack WHILE under a PvP rule-set.

    Greedy... Very greedy.