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[General] Crafting bonus Talismans : regular vs. exceptional ?

Discussion in 'UO Craftsman' started by popps, Mar 16, 2010.

  1. popps

    popps Always Present
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    There are pretty much Talismans with bonuses, both for regular and for exceptional crafting, for all crafting skills from masonry to fletching or alchemy to blacksmithying....

    Not sure if there are any for glassblowing....

    The bonuses can be up to 30% and come randomly so some Talismans can spawn with a high regular bonus, some with a high exceptional bonus or, rarely, with both crafting bonuses at a good high level.

    Anyways, I seem to understand, that not all crafting skills are equal as far as the beneficial effect of bonuses goes.

    For example, while Inscription crafting can gain advantage from a normal inscription bonus, the exceptional bonus is of little to no advantage for this particular crafting skill. That is, as I understand, having a Talisman with regular and exceptional bonuses both at, say, 30% would be a waste since having one with only a regular bonus at 30% would just be as good...

    Blacksmithying and Tailoring, instead, may get a greater beneficial effect from an exceptional bonus as compared to a normal crafting bonus.

    Does anyone know, for all of the crafting skills for which Talismans exist which offer regular and exceptional crafting bonuses, which is which ?

    That is, for which crafting skills it is more important a regular bonus, for which skills instead the exceptional bonus is more important, and for which skills both are really wanted to be as high as possible on a pertaining Talisman to have good help in the crafting from it ?

    That I know of, crafting bonuses for which Talismans with bonuses exist are :

    - Blacksmithying
    - Tailoring
    - Alchemy
    - Inscription
    - Masonry
    - Glassblowing ?
    - Tinkering
    - Fletching
    - Carpentry
    - Cooking
    - Cartography

    any other ?
     
  2. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I will confirm the existence of a talisman for glassblowing, you forgot 'cooking'. Exceptional on inscription gives more charges in runebooks, and of course allows you to put your name on them. I suspect, but can't confirm, that it probably contributes to reaching the highest number of possible mods on spell books too.
     
  3. popps

    popps Always Present
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    About inscription mods on spellbooks, so far, what I have read make me understand that scribes think it more important a high magery level and, some say, also INT as high as possible. Most say that the exceptional bonus does not seem to help much with the number of mods.

    But I have no idea whether this is only hear say or anyone has actually done some testing or whether there have been posts in the past from Developers clarifying all this.
     
  4. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    Your original post is very cryptic, but I think I understand what you are asking.

    Blacksmithing - Good to have both for 100% success chance to craft items (armors, weapons, barding) and be exceptional quality (combined with an Ancient Smith Hammer)
    Tailoring - Good to have both to improve success chance of crafting armors and making them exceptional.
    Alchemy - Regular bonus is great for potion success chance, there are no exceptional bonus talismans
    Inscription - Good to have both to improve success chance of crafting books (spellbooks and runebooks) and making them exceptional.
    Masonry - Good to have both to improve success chance of crafting items (armor, weapons) and making them exceptional.
    Glassblowing - Good to have both to improve success chance of crafting weapons and making them exceptional.
    Tinkering - Good to have both to improve success chance of crafting items (magic jewelry, tools) and making them exceptional.
    Fletching - Good to have both to improve success chance of crafting items (bows) and making them exceptional.
    Carpentry - Good to have both to improve success chance of crafting items (armor, weapons) and making them exceptional.
    Cooking - Good to have both to improve success chance of crafting items (foods) and making them exceptional (to get your name on them, but nothing much else).

    There are excellent pages on all of these specific skills off the UO Stratics Main Page, that will give you your success chance and exceptional chance at crafting a specific item, once you input your skill and talisman modifiers. I suggest you use those to determine what type of talisman you can settle for if you are looking for specific percentages. I have several talismans for each skill depending on what I want to craft. For example, if I want to just craft exceptional fletching tools, then I know I only need 15% exceptional bonus for Tinkering. This type of information can be found on the skill pages.

    *rant* It suprises me how many questions, in general, are asked on these forums that the answers are right there, in plain sight, on the skill pages *stops ranting*


    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  5. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    I understand where Popps is coming from (and unfortunately, where he normally tend to go from there). Here's what you want, what bonuses (besides marker's mark) exceptionally crafted items give -


    Alchemy - NA (Not applicable because "exceptional" version for items crafted using this skill do not exist. That in turn means talismans for this skill do not spawn with exceptional bonus either)

    Edit: As pointed out by Petra, smoke bombs can be made exceptional and the "Treatise on Alchemy" library talisman gives the exceptional bonus.

    Blacksmithing - 35 DI on weapons, +15 resists on armour, 20% damage resist on barding, mage armour on samurai armour

    Carpentry - 35 DI on weapons, +15 resists on armour

    Cartography - NA

    Cooking - None

    Fletching - 35 DI on weapons

    Glassblowing - 35 DI on weapons. Was NA prior to the introduction of glass weapons during SA. However, AFAIK, they have not updated the talismans' spawning code to include exceptional bonus for glassblowing

    Inscription - Add 2 charges to runebooks (or possibly a higher chance to get more charges). No noticeable effect on number/intensity of mods on spellbooks

    Masonry - 35 DI on weapons, +15 resists on armour (No weapons/armour pre SA, but there were exceptional stone furniture, so the exceptional bonus exists in talismans

    Tailoring - +15 resists on armour

    Tinkering - 35 DI on weapons

    I did not include armslore bonus to the above. Add just 5 to "DI" or "resists" to factor in armslore bonuses.



    Now, before it starts going down hill, please note that the talismans have nothing to do with it. It's the actual skills. Some crafting skills just do not have uber bonuses like others. Just like not all skills are alike. And just like not all items are the same.



    Finally, I also keep talismans with high exceptional bonus but low regular bonus. Certain things I do not want reduce waste of resources from creating a non-exceptional version (recycling wastes more than failing).
     
  6. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I'm sorry but I have to say on one point you're only half right. Exceptional bonus for alchemy does exist, my Siege char has one. However it's not a standard talisman, it's the treatise on alchemy library talisman. Smoke bombs can be made 'exceptional'. Though there's no real benefit to them over normal ones.
     
  7. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Ah my bad.
     
  8. Guido_LS

    Guido_LS Seasoned Veteran
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    As of now, there is still no *concrete* evidence of any one thing, or set of things, making the number and intensity of mods happen, beyond the fact that they show up at 80 inscription skill, and the tendency for those with 120 magery/100 inscription to get more/better mods. All evidence is anecdotal, at best.

    Inscription, for spellbooks with mods, is no different than the crapshoot you take with a runic for armor or weapons - you get what you get, and you aren't able to control the outcome.

    As to the usefulness of any of these modifiers, they are useful in the eyes of the owner - much like the Totem of the Void - when I'm smithing, I prefer a high double/double, especially when crafting valorite plate for bod filling.

    Tailoring isn't as vital, but it's nice. Especially on the exceptional side. Some of the mods are a bit of a waste (exceptional alchemy, for example) but that doesn't mean that it won't have a use at some point. I trashed a lot of tali's back when they first came out for being *useless*. I'm still kicking myself.
     
  9. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    If one is filling BODs while crafting, an exceptional bonus WITHOUT a regular bonus is better than one with both, when crafting items for an exceptional BOD.

    Testing shows the following:

    I. The chance of exceptional is based on the SAME random number roll as the chance to craft.

    In other words, if you have a 80% chance to make something, with a 35% chance of exceptional for these numbers, the crafter would be GM+ skill), it breaks down as follows (treating the random number as a result between 0 & 100%):

    0-35% Exceptional Item
    35-80% Normal Item
    80%-100% Failure

    This is 35% of the ATTEMPTS being exceptional, which is contrary to the logical thought (and more mathematically sound) that 35% of the 80% would be exceptional.

    Logical (but not actual) Expected results:
    80% of attempts successful
    35% of 80%, or 28% of total attempts, will result in exceptional.
    Ratio of exceptional to normal in successful items: 35/65, or slightly better than 1 in 3).

    But, the ACTUAL Results are
    80% of attempts are successful
    35% of attempts are exceptional
    45% of all attempts result in normal items
    Ratio of exceptional to normal: 35/45, or about 7 in 16 (43.75%, or 20% greater than the expected results).


    II. Take the above numbers, and add a talisman.

    a. Adding a 20% normal talisman:

    This would make the chance to make normally 100%, and would therefore make the ratio of exceptional to normal 35% / 65%.

    b. Adding a 20% normal / 20% exceptional talisman:

    This would make the ratio 55% exceptional / 45% normal, with 100% success chance.

    c. Adding a 20% EXCEPTIONAL ONLY talisman:

    This leaves the chance to make at 80%, but raises the chance of exceptional to 55% of attempts. This works out to 68.75% of attempts being Exceptional, and ONLY 11.25% OF ATTEMPTS being normal!
    In other words, about SIX of every SEVEN items made will be exceptional, with less than one in seven being normal.

    But, what about the waste of failures, with strategy "c."?
    Well, typically, smithing fails average about the same amount of ingots lost that would be lost if one recycles, especially if one doesn't maximize the return with a Salvage Bag and mining over 101.
    For TAILORS, you WILL save materials failing 20% of the time, as you won't lose anywhere NEAR half the material on those failures, and you WILL lose half the material on a recycle - or all of it, if crafting bone armor! This strategy is therefore MUCH better for a tailor trying to craft exceptional armor that is less than 100% chance to be made normal, than using a talisman that forces the normal chance closer to 100%.



    III. Calculation of Normal & Exceptional Chance (50-point window skills).

    a. Normal Chance:

    -Starts at 0% at base skill to make an item for Smith items, Quivers (Tailor), Gargoyle Cloth Armor (Tailor), and a few other items.

    -Other Tailor items, and most other skills, start at HALF-WAY THROUGH the 50-point window, with an item 50% chance to make, when the ability to make the item is gained at "x" skill. This half-way point also holds true for some of the 40-window skills.

    b. Effect of crafting talisman normal bonus:

    Only applies if you have an actual chance to make the item. So, if you have to be 50 skill to start making an item, a talsman won't raise your skill to where you can make it.

    c. Exceptional Chance:

    -Is calculated based on the calculated NORMAL CHANCE only. Any normal bonus talisman bonus is ignored.
    -Is calculated based on what the Normal Chance would be without modification, including if the Normal Chance is already past 100.0%. So, an item that is 8.7 skill points past 100.0% for normal chance, while not displaying a chance over 100%, is still treated as 117.4% Normal success chance for the exceptional bonus calculation.
    -Is calculated even if it results in a negative number. This has effects that come into play with Exceptional Bonus talismans.

    d. Base Exceptional Chance Calculations (50-window skills):

    -If the crafting skill is 95.0 or below, the Exceptional Chance = Normal Chance - 60
    -If the crafting skill is 100.0 or higher, the Exceptional Chance = Normal Chance - 45
    -Between 95.0 and 100.0, there is a 0.3% Exceptional Chance Bonus, in addition to the (Normal -60) amount. This is an artifact of the days where there were no skills over 100, and is most felt in the Smith & Tailor skills.
    • One way to picture this, is to treat the Normal & Exceptional bonuses as separate calculations (instead intrinsicly linked) that, prior to 95.0 skill, both progress at the same rate of 0.2% gain for every 0.1 additional skill.
    • Then, starting with the gain to 95.1, through 100.0, Normal chance gains still continue 0.2% per 0.1 skill, while Exceptional chance gains at an accelerated 0.5% per 0.1 skill, for the duration.
    • After 100.0 skill, the Exceptional chance drops back to the original 0.2% to 0.1 ratio, resulting in the 100+ skill calculation above.
    e. Effect of an Exceptional Bonus Talisman on the Exceptional Chance:

    -Any normal bonus is ignored for calculation of the Exceptional Chance. If a talisman has a 25% Exceptional Chance, the exceptional chance will go up 25%, regardless if the talisman has an 11% (minimum) normal chance bonus, 30% (maximum) normal chance bonus, or no normal bonus at all!
    -As long as the crafter is sufficient skill to make the item normally, the chance to make exceptional is calculated, then the bonus is added to the result. This can make a negative number positive.
    • Example 1: An item is normally 50% chance to make, below 95 crafting skill. This results in a -10% base exceptional chance, without a talisman.
    • Example 2: Take the above item. Any talisman with an exceptional bonus (which have 11% as a minimum intensity) will allow the crafter a minute chance to craft exceptionally. In this example, an 11% Exceptional Bonus Talisman would result in a 1% Exceptional chance, while a +30% Exceptional Talisman would result in a 20% chance of exceptional.
    • As noted earlier, this is where the oddball effects of how the exceptional chance is calculated comes into play.
    • Example 3.a.: a 30% normal/30% exceptional talisman would make the item 80% chance to make (50%+30%) successfully, and 20% (50%-60%+30%) of attempts (success or fail) will be exceptional. So, 25% of all successes (20%/80% = 1/4) will be exceptional, 75% normal.
    • Example 3.b.: a 30% Exceptional ONLY talisman is worn. That makes the success chance remain at 50%, while the exceptional chance is 20%. This means, perversely, that 40% of Successes (20%/50% = 2/5), will be exceptional.
    • Example 3.c.: Had the above examples been ran at 60% base normal chance (skill below 95), it would have been 90% chance of success, 1/3 of items made exceptional for 3.a., but 60% success, 1/2 of items made exceptional, for 3.b. - essentually with 50% more exceptional items for crafting with the LOWER normal success chance, comparing each group of 100 successes.
    I hope this didn't make your head explode too much....
     
  10. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Just wanted to add to the evidence part:

    Publish 30 introduced spellbooks with properties - http://www.uoguide.com/Publish_30
    Publish 31 buffed the chances - http://www.uoguide.com/Publish_31
    And I want to thank uoguide again. It was much easier searching uoguide compared to uoherald...
     
  11. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    In summary, hang on to talismans with low normal bonus, but high exceptional bonus.

    I would like to stress that it helps for smithing too, esp when crafting swampy barding. Successfully crafting a non-exceptional barding means it's an immediate loss of 250 ingots since I will smelt it as no one buys normal barding (nor will I use it even though I'm a miser).
     
  12. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Actually, you can't even smelt barding anymore, unless they reverted the change made a year or two ago, when a bug allowed some other form of deed to be smelted.

    So, it's a loss of 750 ingots
     
  13. Capt.E

    Capt.E Guest

    Wow, I really had it backwards. Thanks for the info.

    I thought that it was like this:
    Example:

    Tailor bonus 29
    Exceptional bonus 24

    I was under the assumption that the first number made my leather arms have more resists whether they were exceptional or not.

    The second number increases my chance of crafting an exceptional one. Which at 120 tailor is next to useless.
     
  14. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Capt. E - if you think that, you must never fill Studded or bone LBODs.

    For those that do fill those BODs, a talisman is invaluable, as you can't get 100% on some pieces even WITH a talisman.

    For that matter, you need a talisman for much of a chance at exceptional Gargoyle cloth armor.