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Custom Content Re-Sell Debate...

Discussion in 'EA Land/The Sims Online Stratics Forums' started by nodgree, Mar 2, 2008.

  1. nodgree

    nodgree Guest

    Here is my side of the issue...

    I spend alot of time making my custom content to sell at my store alone. I have posted signs and even put in the content description that I do not want it resold. I keep my prices low to give newer sims the oppertunity to have something new on a tight budget as well as more wealthy players. I honestly get tired of going to other stores (one in particular that advertises a huge array of cc) and seeing my stuff there after I nicely asked for it not to be resold. If the content is made solely by me, and I pay for it to b e uploaded AND wait patiently for it to be approved, I think I have the right to say, do not buy and re-sell this. I can understand if you are an individual that jsut doesnt want the item anymore and wanna sell it to another. Its more when a store comes in and buy 5 to 10 items for $250 each and then turns around and resells them for $500. The ones doing it are the ones keeping 12 sims on thier lot to remain on the top of the list. It ruins it for me, having a store in the 40's because, the top stores usually get most of the buisness. Meaning sims see my stuff in the top stores first, buy it for an outragoeus price and never realize they could have purchased it from me (the maker) for much lower.

    Now, on a side note. If I recolour or just upload a normal Sims 1 object, or an object from TSR, I ALWAYS give credit in the description and give the buyer FULL resale rights because I dont not technically own it.

    In conclusion, if stores wanna sell cc at huge prices, why cant they just make thier own as well? Or just find a roomie that can?

    Your thoughts?
     
  2. I don't blame you at all. I have seen stores selling other peoples CC with a nice mark up on it. I won't buy from them. I just wait for the creator to open thier store and then purchase it.
     
  3. nodgree

    nodgree Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    I don't blame you at all. I have seen stores selling other peoples CC with a nice mark up on it. I won't buy from them. I just wait for the creator to open thier store and then purchase it.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I know a few creators that have decided to make items only for them selves because of the theft. I'm headed that way myself.
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I think it is unrealistic. Once you sell something you have lost control over it. You expect someone to just take a loss if they decide they no longer want or need something? I don't agree with that. If I buy something and no longer have a use for it - I will probably sell it. Its my money and my business.

    Personally I wouldn't buy something at a store that sells it for more than the original artist but thats just common sense to me.

    Perhaps you could offer to buy back pieces or something but its going to happen and you can't really do anything about it... unless you want to stop selling which wouldn't be good. Good luck finding a way to deal with it.
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    I don't blame you at all. I have seen stores selling other peoples CC with a nice mark up on it. I won't buy from them. I just wait for the creator to open thier store and then purchase it.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I know a few creators that have decided to make items only for them selves because of the theft. I'm headed that way myself.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    No, don't do that, that ruins it for everybody. If I were you and saw this, I would confront the owner of the store, in PM, and demand that he allow you to buy back everything that has your name for it for the same $250 that you sold it to the original person for, or whatever. That way the store owner gets his money back, because chances are he's not the one that scammed you, somebody else probably bought the stuff from you and then sold it to the store owner, unless you remember seeing the store owner in your store or one of his listed roomies specifically, and if you have proof of that I'd just tell him you want the stuff back, period, and if he doesn't give it back to you report him since Parizad has come here and specifically said that practices like this are against the rules.

    Not selling your CC at all just because of this though would just not be right in my opinion though because that's screwing the same newbies that you said you wanted to help because of somebody ELSE'S actions. I understand the anger, but just make sure it's directed at, and hit only the people you're mad at and not innocent people, or else you'll be doing the same thing EA has done to players when they punish the honest players with the negative effect of bot-thwarting efforts that affect even people who do not bot. Also too if you see anybody buying an item that has your name on it in one of those stores, you can PM that sim and ask them to look at the creator's name, pointing out that it is you, and that in the future they can buy the items directly from you at a much reduced price. That would take future business away from the store that is *stealing* your stuff, give you future business most likely, and also create a name for yourself so that you could get out of the 40s on the list. It's a lot more work to do it that way, but its a way to ensure that the least number of innocent people possible get hurt, IMO.

    Just my two simoleans, since you did ask for thoughts [​IMG]
     
  6. nodgree

    nodgree Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    I think it is unrealistic. Once you sell something you have lost control over it. You expect someone to just take a loss if they decide they no longer want or need something? I don't agree with that. If I buy something and no longer have a use for it - I will probably sell it. Its my money and my business.

    Personally I wouldn't buy something at a store that sells it for more than the original artist but thats just common sense to me.

    Perhaps you could offer to buy back pieces or something but its going to happen and you can't really do anything about it... unless you want to stop selling which wouldn't be good. Good luck finding a way to deal with it.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You missread what I posted. I have no problem with an individual sim selling an item I made when he/or she no longer wants or needs it. Its the stores that are coming in and buying up my inventory for the sheer purpose of reselling them at a higher rate [​IMG]
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    If I were you and saw this, I would confront the owner of the store, in PM, and demand that he allow you to buy back everything that has your name for it for the same $250 that you sold it to the original person for, or whatever. That way the store owner gets his money back, because chances are he's not the one that scammed you, somebody else probably bought the stuff from you and then sold it to the store owner, unless you remember seeing the store owner in your store or one of his listed roomies specifically, and if you have proof of that I'd just tell him you want the stuff back, period, and if he doesn't give it back to you report him since Parizad has come here and specifically said that practices like this are against the rules.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Are you serious? Regardless of the OP's intentions (helping new sims), once he sells an item it is no longer his. The person that bought it is the new owner and can do whatever he wants to with it. On top of that you're advising him to bother Parizad with this nonsense? Nobody scammed anyone here, just a case of sellers remorse.
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Nobody scammed anyone here, just a case of sellers remorse.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    No it isn't.

    If person A is selling a custom item for §250, and person B is buying it and reselling it for §500 to person C, then person B is scamming person C by charging an inflated price for something that was intended to be sold by person A for §250.

    Of course you can't control what someone does with something you have sold them - but buying multiples of someone else's creations to resell for a profit is certainly dishonest and unethical on person B's part at the very least.

    We have a lot of people doing the same in Second Life - buying someone's freebie giveaway items, then repackaging them and selling them to people who didn't know they were supposed to be freebies - I can't possibly repeat here in words on a 'teen' rated forum the contempt in which these people are held by upstanding members of the community there.
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    If I were you and saw this, I would confront the owner of the store, in PM, and demand that he allow you to buy back everything that has your name for it for the same $250 that you sold it to the original person for, or whatever. That way the store owner gets his money back, because chances are he's not the one that scammed you, somebody else probably bought the stuff from you and then sold it to the store owner, unless you remember seeing the store owner in your store or one of his listed roomies specifically, and if you have proof of that I'd just tell him you want the stuff back, period, and if he doesn't give it back to you report him since Parizad has come here and specifically said that practices like this are against the rules.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Are you serious? Regardless of the OP's intentions (helping new sims), once he sells an item it is no longer his. The person that bought it is the new owner and can do whatever he wants to with it. On top of that you're advising him to bother Parizad with this nonsense? Nobody scammed anyone here, just a case of sellers remorse.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes I'm serious and yes since it is against the rules it is a scam. You've obviously never made custom content for redistribution, but if a maker puts anywhere on their website, or property in this case that buyers MAY NOT redistribute their work for profit without permission of the original maker, and somebody does it again, then that is breech of contract, and yes Parizad did come here and state that it was against the game rules too, guess you missed that also. And I did not say to bug Parizad with it, I said that she was the one that said it was against the rules, so nodgree should report it IN GAME. Whom he reports it to, whether using the in-game reporting system, IMing Parizad, or Lee, or GregK or whomever is totally up to him. If you're going to participate in the discussion and disagree with a point made, *at least* have it be based on something that was actually said.....that seems like common sense to me.
     
  10. nodgree

    nodgree Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    If I were you and saw this, I would confront the owner of the store, in PM, and demand that he allow you to buy back everything that has your name for it for the same $250 that you sold it to the original person for, or whatever. That way the store owner gets his money back, because chances are he's not the one that scammed you, somebody else probably bought the stuff from you and then sold it to the store owner, unless you remember seeing the store owner in your store or one of his listed roomies specifically, and if you have proof of that I'd just tell him you want the stuff back, period, and if he doesn't give it back to you report him since Parizad has come here and specifically said that practices like this are against the rules.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Are you serious? Regardless of the OP's intentions (helping new sims), once he sells an item it is no longer his. The person that bought it is the new owner and can do whatever he wants to with it. On top of that you're advising him to bother Parizad with this nonsense? Nobody scammed anyone here, just a case of sellers remorse.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It has nothing to do with sellers remorse. Obviously you didnt read the reasoning for this in my post.

    EDIT: Just a quick not on this thread, it was never intended to start a heated discussion, just to bring out both sides of the problem. If it gets out of hand, I'd like the mods to just lock it and we can all move on. I dont wanna start any wars [​IMG]
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I disagree here.

    For example, someone paints a picture and sells it for $10. 20 years later that painiting gets sold for $600. Is that wrong?

    Once you sell your items to other people, even if you made it, its is not your say what they do with it. If they want to sell it you have no right to say they can't.

    Its like Maxis sell items and people in stores charge more than what they paid for it, its just the way things are.
     
  12. nodgree

    nodgree Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    I disagree here.

    For example, someone paints a picture and sells it for $10. 20 years later that painiting gets sold for $600. Is that wrong?

    Once you sell your items to other people, even if you made it, its is not your say what they do with it. If they want to sell it you have no right to say they can't.

    Its like Maxis sell items and people in stores charge more than what they paid for it, its just the way things are.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The items in the stores dont have warnings against re-selling. My cc does. Theres a big difference. If a store wants to re-sell my stuff for the same price I am charging, thats fine by me. But, I dont want them making a profit off my work. That, is a scam.
     
  13. That's not scamming, its either stupidity or lack of information/research on Person C's part. Person C should obviously check around for the best price. I don't walk into a store and buy a §1,200 chair when I know the seller is offering it at §800.

    It's Person A's choice to sell it at a lower price. This market allows for competition, which means you either sacrifice profit or you sacrifice quantities bought.
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    We have a lot of people doing the same in Second Life - buying someone's freebie giveaway items, then repackaging them and selling them to people who didn't know they were supposed to be freebies - I can't possibly repeat here in words on a 'teen' rated forum the contempt in which these people are held by upstanding members of the community there.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yup, this kind of thing is pandemic, basically everywhere. That's why when trying to find graphics for websites, when a person makes graphics and clearly states on their website <font color="red">Not to be redistributed without prior permission by me, or redistrubuted for profit at all </font> and they catch someone doing it, they can actually pursue legal action against that person, if the person is making a profit off of it. If they are just redistributing it without giving credit, but not getting any money for it, then I do not think it is a criminal offense, though.

    Now I'm not suggesting that anybody sue anybody here, but that is why EA has stated that it is against game rules to do this, since now that simoleans have RL cash value, that's basically what someone else is doing...taking someone's work and redistributing it for profit, even though cash-in is not enabled yet. If it's not already in the ToS, they need to get it in there pronto since the statement has already been made here, but either way, it is still a malicious and borderline criminal act, and I suppose if a person really gave a damn enough about the principle to get into it, or the theft wa on a large enough scale simolean wise to translate to alot of RL money, then they could.
     
  15. nodgree

    nodgree Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    That's not scamming, its either stupidity or lack of information/research on Person C's part. Person C should obviously check around for the best price. I don't walk into a store and buy a §1,200 chair when I know the seller is offering it at §800.

    It's Person A's choice to sell it at a lower price. This market allows for competition, which means you either sacrifice profit or you sacrifice quantities bought.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Its the point that the stores that are re-selling are the ones in the top grid that are using multiple accounts to stay on top. Most people dont bother with the houses below the top 20 because the top 10 is so much easier to get to. Thus, they dont even get to see the lower prices.
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    I think it is unrealistic. Once you sell something you have lost control over it. You expect someone to just take a loss if they decide they no longer want or need something? I don't agree with that. If I buy something and no longer have a use for it - I will probably sell it. Its my money and my business.

    Personally I wouldn't buy something at a store that sells it for more than the original artist but thats just common sense to me.

    Perhaps you could offer to buy back pieces or something but its going to happen and you can't really do anything about it... unless you want to stop selling which wouldn't be good. Good luck finding a way to deal with it.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You missread what I posted. I have no problem with an individual sim selling an item I made when he/or she no longer wants or needs it. Its the stores that are coming in and buying up my inventory for the sheer purpose of reselling them at a higher rate [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]
    The myth here is that people believe that whatever they create is their's... forever. This is simply not true - anywhere.
    You make something then you sell it - this is a transfer of ownership in consideration of the money you receive. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, either morally, ethically, or legally.
    Using immoral, unethical or illegal means of putting themselves in a position to re-sell the item (such as packing the list) may be a cause for complaint, but the selling of the item itself is not. The item BELONGS to the buyer and he/she has every right to re-sell it if they so choose.
    Surely you believe the money you received belongs to you? Yet it was created (generated) by someone else.
    It's exactly the same as RL - your TV belongs to you because you "bought" it - or it was a gift (someone else bought it and gave it to you - meaning they transferred ownership to you), even though someone else created/built it.
    Your car? Same thing.
    I-Pod? Cell Phone? Shoes? All the same principle.
    The short of it is that once you sell the item, you have no right to tell the new owner what he *is* and *is not* allowed to do with it.

    However, if you own the copyright, no one else may make *copies* of your work without your permission, especially for the purpose of selling for profit.
    And *that* is what is against the rules here on TSO - NOT the re-sale of individual items legally purchased from the creator.
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Person C should obviously check around for the best price. I don't walk into a store and buy a §1,200 chair when I know the seller is offering it at §800.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    "when I know" is the operative phrase here. Do you spend an hour checking every single store in the city - and waiting for those who are not open at that time - before buying anything? No, of course you don't.

    Remember we are talking about custom created - not catalogue items - here, that aren't widely available and for anyone to sell.

    When the creator of the custom content clearly states that the item is not for resale, then the reseller is certainly in 'breach of contract' although it seems at present there is no way to enforce that.
     
  18. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    That's not scamming, its either stupidity or lack of information/research on Person C's part. Person C should obviously check around for the best price. I don't walk into a store and buy a §1,200 chair when I know the seller is offering it at §800.

    It's Person A's choice to sell it at a lower price. This market allows for competition, which means you either sacrifice profit or you sacrifice quantities bought.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Its the point that the stores that are re-selling are the ones in the top grid that are using multiple accounts to stay on top. Most people dont bother with the houses below the top 20 because the top 10 is so much easier to get to. Thus, they dont even get to see the lower prices.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That's why hanging out at those stores and watching who is buying your stuff would be beneficial. If what you say is true and they are circumventing time out anyway, then they wouldn't be there to kick/ban you, and they deserve to lose business on 2 counts instead of just one, so by pointing out to people that you are the original creator, you'd be getting the business for yourself, though not for that item since there's no 'returning' bought objects, unless you offer to refund them the difference between what they just paid and your asking price. You'd lose simoleans that way in the short run, but it would be a good faith effort that would earn you alot of integrity points, which very well could translate to more sales, and therefore more simoleans later. There might even be those that would not accept the refund of the difference but would STILL think more highly of you just because you offered.
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Thank you Donavan! I was trying to express the same thing in the previous thread on this subject. People are considering this "theft" and "stealing", but I wasn't aware of the fact that you can steal something after buying it.

    People are not COPYING your work. They are BUYING it from you. You are getting the same amount of money for every single item sold, because the person who is selling has to buy the item from you in the first place.

    I don't really see why everybody is so concerned, unless they are selfish to the point that they don't want person B, who happens to be a naturally good seller, to make a profit.
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Can you provide me a link to where it says you can't buy custom content low and sell high? No rules are being broke here. Maybe *if* you played the game a little more *you* would have more of a clue as to what is going on. If you're going to participate *in* this discussion please be ready to provide *facts*.
     
  21. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Thank you Donavan! I was trying to express the same thing in the previous thread on this subject. People are considering this "theft" and "stealing", but I wasn't aware of the fact that you can steal something after buying it.

    People are not COPYING your work. They are BUYING it from you. You are getting the same amount of money for every single item sold, because the person who is selling has to buy the item from you in the first place.

    I don't really see why everybody is so concerned, unless they are selfish to the point that they don't want person B, who happens to be a naturally good seller, to make a profit.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You're missing the whole point behind the laws. Anywhere, if a person says 'do not redistribute my work for profit', you CAN NOT do it, period. It doesn't have to do with selfishness, or meanness, it has to do with the law. If a person neglects to mention this anywhere and just *assumes* that people will not do it, then yeah shame on them and there's nothing they can do about it later, but when you buy something from someone, with that clause attached, and you violate that clause, then that's an illegal act, period. People who do not care about it will just leave that statement off, and then anybody can do whatever they want to with their work. If you don't care, then make CC and leave that statement off, but don't criticize people because they do care, or make it sound like breaking the law is *no big deal*, because it is a very big deal.
     
  22. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Can you provide me a link to where it says you can't buy custom content low and sell high? No rules are being broke here. Maybe *if* you played the game a little more *you* would have more of a clue as to what is going on. If you're going to participate *in* this discussion please be ready to provide *facts*.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    If you'd been reading as much as I have, then you would have read it when it was said, and if you'd study the laws that are provided on the internet you'd know that part is true. Don't ask me to do your research for you because you can't be bothered. Your disagreement has very little to do with the subject matter and we both know that, so this will be the last time I will entertain a post like this from you.
     
  23. rookie

    rookie Guest

    I have people coming in everyday trying to sell me cc that they have bought from the original uploader. I simply wont sell anyone elses cc. However I let anyone sell the cc that I have for sale. I look at it as advertisement and a way to compete with those top stores. The more that get out the more people will see the uploader's name. If people want to save money they will click on the object info and go find the original uploader and buy it there. One other thing you could do if you dont want it resold is put in the description of the object the original price you sell them for and then the person that bought that object will have a harder time reselling it for more and may stop buying your cc.
     
  24. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    I disagree here.

    For example, someone paints a picture and sells it for $10. 20 years later that painiting gets sold for $600. Is that wrong?

    Once you sell your items to other people, even if you made it, its is not your say what they do with it. If they want to sell it you have no right to say they can't.

    Its like Maxis sell items and people in stores charge more than what they paid for it, its just the way things are.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The items in the stores dont have warnings against re-selling. My cc does. Theres a big difference. If a store wants to re-sell my stuff for the same price I am charging, thats fine by me. But, I dont want them making a profit off my work. <u>That, is a scam.</u>

    [/ QUOTE ]
    It is not a scam unless they have somehow acquired your property by trick or fraud. But if they have paid the price that you, yourself have set for the merchandise, then you have no complaint.
    Think about it. What would you actually *own* if this 'ownership in perpetuity' concept were in force? Somebody else 'created' just about everything you own. Other somebodies created the parts those things were made of. Still others mined, smelted, refined, etc the raw materials that those parts were made of.
    I'm sorry, man. I know you are proud of what you have created, but once sold...
     
  25. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    Can you provide me a link to where it says you can't buy custom content low and sell high? No rules are being broke here. Maybe *if* you played the game a little more *you* would have more of a clue as to what is going on. If you're going to participate *in* this discussion please be ready to provide *facts*.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    If you'd been reading as much as I have, then you would have read it when it was said, and if you'd study the laws that are provided on the internet you'd know that part is true. Don't ask me to do your research for you because you can't be bothered. Your disagreement has very little to do with the subject matter and we both know that, so this will be the last time I will entertain a post like this from you.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Carrie, with all the reading you've been doing, could you please as Sam asked post the links to these laws in particular, because quite honestly I do not have enough time to search the internet for ownership laws prior to playing a game, for fear that I am going to break the law while playing. If you can provide solid reasoning behind your arguments, I might be enticed to go along with them.
     
  26. nodgree

    nodgree Guest

    I have actually solved my own problem here and, hopefully other cc creators will follow my lead.

    On all my uploads I will be including in the description, "This item can be purchased for "x amount" at "insert store here" or directly from "insert name here". "

    If the person doesnt check the description before he/she buys it, then its thier own fault. I dont think any store is going to want to stock an item that makes them look as tho they are over pricing [​IMG]
     
  27. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Yup, this kind of thing is pandemic, basically everywhere. That's why when trying to find graphics for websites, when a person makes graphics and clearly states on their website <font color="red">Not to be redistributed without prior permission by me, or redistrubuted for profit at all </font> and they catch someone doing it, they can actually pursue legal action against that person, if the person is making a profit off of it. If they are just redistributing it without giving credit, but not getting any money for it, then I do not think it is a criminal offense, though.

    Now I'm not suggesting that anybody sue anybody here, but that is why EA has stated that it is against game rules to do this, since now that simoleans have RL cash value, that's basically what someone else is doing...taking someone's work and redistributing it for profit, even though cash-in is not enabled yet. If it's not already in the ToS, they need to get it in there pronto since the statement has already been made here, but either way, it is still a malicious and borderline criminal act, and I suppose if a person really gave a damn enough about the principle to get into it, or the theft wa on a large enough scale simolean wise to
    translate to alot of RL money, then they could.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I am sorry Carrie, but you have misunderstood what Parizad was saying. She was warning people not to *upload* graphics from someone else's website as their own Custom Content in EAL.

    This discussion is about reselling a specific purchased *item*...not uploading and creating more.

    As to the idea that it is 'stealing', that is just silly drama. Someone can not 'steal' something that was set for public sale and for which they paid the full asking price. [​IMG]

    If a cc creator wants control over who buys their work, then it is *their* obligation (and problem) to make sure that only the people they want to have it, get it. Thru trade or admit only lots, for example. But if they just set it on a public store lot and price it, then it is their bad if someone buys it all.

    Any savy businessman knows that if you sell something at retail and someone buys it with the specific purpose of selling it at a higher retail, then you are clearly underpricing the item.[​IMG]
     
  28. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    I have actually solved my own problem here and, hopefully other cc creators will follow my lead.

    On all my uploads I will be including in the description, "This item can be purchased for "x amount" at "insert store here" or directly from "insert name here". If the person doesnt check the description before he/she buys it, then its thier own fault. I dont think any store is going to want to stock an item that makes them look as tho they are over pricing [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Great idea. It's not going to stop the "problem" entirely, as I'm sure some people will make purchases solely on convenience, but knowing that they can get it cheaper will stop a lot of of second-hand selling.
     
  29. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    One other thing you could do if you dont want it resold is put in the description of the object the original price you sell them for and then the person that bought that object will have a harder time reselling it for more and may stop buying your cc.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That's an excellent idea, because then the buyer could not claim ignorance that they did not know you had this policy, as they *might* be able to get away with if it was on the house bio or a sign on the property next to the items, though I'd personally tell the person that they should have read the sign that was located right there....but some people just can't be bothered with that, so putting it on the item would be the path of least resistance and would create less loopholes to crawl through.

    For the record, I have no problem with people who don't care that other people resell their CC for a profit, all you have to do if you don't care is eliminate that disclaimer and the laws don't apply to you. What my beef has been in this thread is those who have said that people who *do* care are selfish, and other derrogatory terms, simply because they feel they worked hard on something and don't want anybody else to steal it. Nobody else can decide for a person what their work is worth to *them*, and just because they value their work more than you value yours, or they look at it being redistributed from a different angle that you look at it from doesn't make you, or them, wrong...but when someone's name is on something as the original creator, then they retain partial rights over that object unless they voluntarily give it up, unlike any other object in the game that is not *unique* or does not have the original buyer's name on it. I don't think this would apply to craftables, because craftables are not *unique* in that one craftable of a type looks identical to all other craftables of that type, except for the name of the crafter on it, so that's not a 'custom' object.
     
  30. nodgree

    nodgree Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Any savy businessman knows that if you sell something at retail and someone buys it with the specific purpose of selling it at a higher retail, then you are clearly underpricing the item.[​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The intent with pricing low was discussed in my original post [​IMG]
    Have you seen the prices some stores are charging for something they ripped out of the original sims game, LOL. I can honestly see both sides of the story but, as some one who spends a good deal of time creating cc, its difficult to see someone else use it for thier personal game. I know thats life. Like I said, I have found a solution to the issue.
     
  31. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    I don't really see why everybody is so concerned, unless they are selfish to the point that they don't want person B, who happens to be a naturally good seller, to make a profit.

    [/ QUOTE ]You probably wouldn't be until it happened to you.

    There is nothing "being a good seller" about taking someone else's work, putting a markup on it, and selling it for a higher price than the original creator.

    It's unethical, for a start. I'm sure a lot of stuff is worth more than it gets sold by the original creator for - but some people just like to create and give something to the community rather than just make money. If an item was intended to be sold for §500 it would be by the original creator - not §250. You can't say it's their fault for underpricing - it's the fault of the reseller.

    Seems to me that as one way of ruining the game for everyone honest gets removed or cracked down on, the low-life move on to the next scam.
     
  32. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    Thank you Donavan! I was trying to express the same thing in the previous thread on this subject. People are considering this "theft" and "stealing", but I wasn't aware of the fact that you can steal something after buying it.

    People are not COPYING your work. They are BUYING it from you. You are getting the same amount of money for every single item sold, because the person who is selling has to buy the item from you in the first place.

    I don't really see why everybody is so concerned, unless they are selfish to the point that they don't want person B, who happens to be a naturally good seller, to make a profit.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You're missing the whole point behind the laws. Anywhere, if a person says 'do not redistribute my work for profit', you CAN NOT do it, period. It doesn't have to do with selfishness, or meanness, it has to do with the law. If a person neglects to mention this anywhere and just *assumes* that people will not do it, then yeah shame on them and there's nothing they can do about it later, but when you buy something from someone, with that clause attached, and you violate that clause, then that's an illegal act, period. People who do not care about it will just leave that statement off, and then anybody can do whatever they want to with their work. If you don't care, then make CC and leave that statement off, but don't criticize people because they do care, or make it sound like breaking the law is *no big deal*, because it is a very big deal.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    This is a statement regarding intellectual rights (or in this case: graphics). It has absolutely nothing to do with reselling a painting, book, or sculpture that was bought from the original artist.
    Most of those statements follow the one where you can use it for free, but can not distribute it for profit. It is a legal step necessary to make sure they do not lose the rights to their own copywrite.
     
  33. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    There is nothing "being a good seller" about taking someone else's work, putting a markup on it, and selling it for a higher price than the original creator.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Exactly, unless the person is a wholesale vendor to begin with, and then they'll be dealing in volume and then KNOWING that people are going to buy from them, and either turn around and resell to others in smaller quantities for a marked up price, or if they are selling raw materials are going to use the materials to make something to sell for a profit. Of course *that* would not be screwing somebody because that is the wholesale vendor's entire purpose for being in business.....he doesnt want to fool with the public, he wants to deal with small businessmen and businessmen only. There are even store owners in TSO that will not sell to other store owners in mass quantities, and will go as far as putting other known store owners on their ban list so they cant sneak in and buy stuff, yet nobody has made a post here about having a problem with that, and we're not even talking about originally made stuff, this is catalog stuff.....yet some of you jump on nodgree and those of us that are backing him up for caring about other people doing this to him....go figure lol.
     
  34. I agree here completely - once you sell the item, thats it as far as I am concerned.

    However, if you feel very strongly about this, then a suggestion, you know (from the ingame email messages) who is buying all your stock for resale...then I suggest you go to extremes and ban them from your lot - if you see them for resale on another lot for a higher price - as I said, if you feel that strongly about it....
    However, tongue in cheek, this is business - and as far as I am concerned (being the devils advocate here) its good business savvy, purchasing an article, reselling it and making a profit - thats business economy.

    However, I would feel flattered that someone thinks that my CC is good enough to buy alot of and resell (albeit at a much higher price). Another thought - why dont you approach that store owner and get them to be an "official" outlet for you....there are more than one ways to skin a cat here! You could make a killing!!!!!
     
  35. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    Thank you Donavan! I was trying to express the same thing in the previous thread on this subject. People are considering this "theft" and "stealing", but I wasn't aware of the fact that you can steal something after buying it.

    People are not COPYING your work. They are BUYING it from you. You are getting the same amount of money for every single item sold, because the person who is selling has to buy the item from you in the first place.

    I don't really see why everybody is so concerned, unless they are selfish to the point that they don't want person B, who happens to be a naturally good seller, to make a profit.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You're missing the whole point behind the laws. Anywhere, if a person says 'do not redistribute my work for profit', you CAN NOT do it, period. It doesn't have to do with selfishness, or meanness, it has to do with the law. If a person neglects to mention this anywhere and just *assumes* that people will not do it, then yeah shame on them and there's nothing they can do about it later, but when you buy something from someone, with that clause attached, and you violate that clause, then that's an illegal act, period. People who do not care about it will just leave that statement off, and then anybody can do whatever they want to with their work. If you don't care, then make CC and leave that statement off, but don't criticize people because they do care, or make it sound like breaking the law is *no big deal*, because it is a very big deal.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    This is a statement regarding intellectual rights (or in this case: graphics). It has absolutely nothing to do with reselling a painting, book, or sculpture that was bought from the original artist.
    Most of those statements follow the one where you can use it for free, but can not distribute it for profit. It is a legal step necessary to make sure they do not lose the rights to their own copywrite.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes, but I believe the same intellectual rights apply here since the biggest part of the CC that I've seen has been original work. After all the tubes, and things that are used to make graphics aren't 'original' either, yet those rights still apply, so there's no reason that the same thing should not apply here, although the owner would not retain copyright privilege, they still retain rights to say how and why it can be distributed. The only reason they cannot get copyrights is because of EA's statement in the ToS/UA that says that *they* retain the copyright for any and all objects in the game, otherwise I believe it should/would be possible for a creator to retain the copyrights themselves.
     
  36. nodgree

    nodgree Guest

    I just wanted to put this whole issue up for debate because I am not the only one its happening too. I mean, we all should have figured it was only a matter of time before the greedier of the store owners realized they could take advantage of selling other peoples work to make thier own profit. It boils down to raw ethics. What kind of person you are, will you be honest and ask before selling another persons work, will you respect thier asking you not to, or will you just go ahead and do it to make yourself a profit?
     
  37. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    There is nothing "being a good seller" about taking someone else's work, putting a markup on it, and selling it for a higher price than the original creator.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    What I meant by that is if they weren't good at selling things, or didn't put the effort into getting to a top store (which I'm sure you will argue doesn't require effort, but rather cheating, but that is an entirely different thread), then nobody would be buying the marked up items.
     
  38. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    Thank you Donavan! I was trying to express the same thing in the previous thread on this subject. People are considering this "theft" and "stealing", but I wasn't aware of the fact that you can steal something after buying it.

    People are not COPYING your work. They are BUYING it from you. You are getting the same amount of money for every single item sold, because the person who is selling has to buy the item from you in the first place.

    I don't really see why everybody is so concerned, unless they are selfish to the point that they don't want person B, who happens to be a naturally good seller, to make a profit.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You're missing the whole point behind the laws. Anywhere, if a person says 'do not redistribute my work for profit', you CAN NOT do it, period. It doesn't have to do with selfishness, or meanness, it has to do with the law. If a person neglects to mention this anywhere and just *assumes* that people will not do it, then yeah shame on them and there's nothing they can do about it later, but when you buy something from someone, with that clause attached, and you violate that clause, then that's an illegal act, period. People who do not care about it will just leave that statement off, and then anybody can do whatever they want to with their work. If you don't care, then make CC and leave that statement off, but don't criticize people because they do care, or make it sound like breaking the law is *no big deal*, because it is a very big deal.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    This is absolutely correct - in your imagination. But it is not a tenet of law.
    To restrict the owner's right to control his/her own property requires reams of legal paperwork that must pass muster in a court of law.
    This might be done for an architectural treasure. Or maybe for a family heirloom passed from generation to generation. Under no circumsatnces can someone simply tell a potential buyer they can't re-sell a legally acquired purchase.
    The concept of ownership carries enormous weight in law, and you can't dismiss it with a casual wave of the hand.
    You *buy* it - you *own* it - it *<u>belongs</u> to you*.

    Re-selling for profit: Otherwise known as "enterprise". Meaning the 're-seller' sees a potential for profit that the original seller did not. Hence 'entrepenuers' buy low and sell high. As long as no copyrights are violated, the original seller only has himself to blame for not recognizing the potential.
     
  39. Guest

    Guest Guest

    *TTL*

    How about auctions that we should have one day in the future. There are some articles about it on the wiki. Auctions.

    Would it be better if creators could sell their items to stores in bulk? Would those that are against this practice today embrace it in an auction setting instead?

    Another thought is why not just make a deal with some of these stores, sell to them directly as long as they post a sign advertising you as the creator with your items. Perhaps they would be willing to determine a selling price with your input. They are willing to put time in at a store but not to create, you are willing to create but not being at the top of the list you have a more difficult selling position. This could be a win-win situation. You get to create more, they get to sell more, everyone makes money and customers get what they want. Personally I think it would be best to try to make a good working relationship with several stores. Perhaps offer different stock to some stores for promos or offer limited edition items.
     
  40. nodgree

    nodgree Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    *TTL*

    How about auctions that we should have one day in the future. There are some articles about it on the wiki. Auctions.

    Would it be better if creators could sell their items to stores in bulk? Would those that are against this practice today embrace it in an auction setting instead?

    Another thought is why not just make a deal with some of these stores, sell to them directly as long as they post a sign advertising you as the creator with your items. Perhaps they would be willing to determine a selling price with your input. They are willing to put time in at a store but not to create, you are willing to create but not being at the top of the list you have a more difficult selling position. This could be a win-win situation. You get to create more, they get to sell more, everyone makes money and customers get what they want. Personally I think it would be best to try to make a good working relationship with several stores. Perhaps offer different stock to some stores for promos or offer limited edition items.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The funny thing is, I tried making a deal with one of the stores I caught selling my stuff and they wouldnt take it. The next day they had my stuff for sale in thier store again. That was after they had been banned from my lot. I figure they used free account sims to come purchase the items. There is always going to be a way around the issue [​IMG]
     
  41. Guest

    Guest Guest

    OK go to the #2 store and offer them a deal and explain why. Make sure the merchandise you offer them is unique and have them price it slightly lower then the other store. [​IMG]
     
  42. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Would it be better if creators could sell their items to stores in bulk? Would those that are against this practice today embrace it in an auction setting instead?

    [/ QUOTE ]If a content creator 'does a deal' with a particular store for distribution of their creations - then I don't see any problem with that because it is an agreed, legitimate resell-and-make-profit-for-both opportunity.

    The problem is reselling other people's work for profit, not only without permission, but it seems in direct violation of 'contract of purchase' as stated in the original store.

    Why would people bother to make anything to resell if people are just going to rip it off and resell it to make a profit for themselves instead of the original creator selling it only?

    Custom content should be set to "no resale" unless the original creator specifically permits it - perhaps by a rudimentary tickbox permissions system?
     
  43. nodgree

    nodgree Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    OK go to the #2 store and offer them a deal and explain why. Make sure the merchandise you offer them is unique and have them price it slightly lower then the other store. [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I think I'm just going to chose my descriptions wisely. That way, if a store chooses to resell, they will only be making themselves look bad [​IMG]

    I do like the auction idea. I'd actually love to work with a store or 2 if we could negotiate something beneficial to both parties [​IMG]
     
  44. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Seems to me that as one way of ruining the game for everyone honest gets removed or cracked down on, the low-life move on to the next scam.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    It seems to me that, according to you, anyone who uses their wits, strategy, determination, perseverence, etc. is somehow cheating/dishonest.
    I am quite sure that if your mood had been in the proper planetary alignment when you first read this thread, you would have come down full force on the creators of CC. You would have accused them of dishonest cheating for hogging content that came directly from the Sims off-line game - claiming it belongs to ALL players and demanding it be distributed for free.
     
  45. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    I just wanted to put this whole issue up for debate because I am not the only one its happening too. I mean, we all should have figured it was only a matter of time before the greedier of the store owners realized they could take advantage of selling other peoples work to make thier own profit. It boils down to raw ethics. What kind of person you are, will you be honest and ask before selling another persons work, will you respect thier asking you not to, or will you just go ahead and do it to make yourself a profit?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I agree with you, but it's been known that the human race was greedy as a whole for a looooooong time, that's *why* we're given tools, like that disclaimer I told you about, to protect ourselves legally, so that we have a recourse to defend ourselves when somebody does something wrong, because ethics just don't mean what they ought to mean to the majority of the human race anymore. In the days of 'Little House on the Prairie' (timeframe late 1800s to early-mid 1900's) a man's word and handshake was enough to seal a deal, and if someone renigged on that they were looked down upon, way down upon, by the entire community. Nowadays a person is considered a 'good business man' by how many loopholes he can find to crawl through and the person wrong is looked at as an 'idiot' because they didn't protect themselves, so they 'can't blame the other guy for trying to get a leg up'. Pfffft, it's a sad sign of the times, especially considering these are PIXELS we're talking about. Someone that scams is rotten enough, but someone that scams over pixels is just the lowest of the low, IMO, because even IF cash-in was in place, the RL profit value wouldn't be all that much, so it's just petty and malicious to skim it when someone has clearly said 'Don't do this with my work. It's mine, you are buying rights to display it in your home, not rights to redistribute it to others for the purpose of profit.'
     
  46. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    I don't really see why everybody is so concerned, unless they are selfish to the point that they don't want person B, who happens to be a naturally good seller, to make a profit.

    [/ QUOTE ]You probably wouldn't be until it happened to you.

    There is nothing "being a good seller" about taking someone else's work, putting a markup on it, and selling it for a higher price than the original creator.

    It's unethical, for a start. I'm sure a lot of stuff is worth more than it gets sold by the original creator for - but some people just like to create and give something to the community rather than just make money. If an item was intended to be sold for §500 it would be by the original creator - not §250. You can't say it's their fault for underpricing - it's the fault of the reseller.

    Seems to me that as one way of ruining the game for everyone honest gets removed or cracked down on, the low-life move on to the next scam.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It is not in the least bit 'unethical'. [​IMG]

    All prices are arbitrary....the one the original artist sells it for, the one the collector sells it for, the one the thrift store sells it for.....all arbitrary and based on their best guess at what it should sell for!

    Is it unethical for a dealer, museum or even his estate to sell a Picasso painting at 1000 X what Picasso sold it for? Of course it isn't, it is current market value. It isn't anymore 'unethical', than selling your $60 dollar lamp for 50 cents at a yard sale. The value of items fluctuates, and so does the fair market value.

    Just because someone wants to make a statement or practice their own brand of altruism, does not obligate anyone else to play along. If Creator A wants to make their work available for cheap, that is his choice. But once he offers it for public sale, then Reseller B has an absolute right to purchase it and sell it for more. Creator A got the price he placed on the item....he sold his rights to control what is done with that specific item, there after.

    It seems to me, that this discussion is blurring the lines between intellectual property and physical property. What you sell in a store is physical property. What you download from a site or upload into cc, is intellectual property.

    The physical item that you put for sale in the store is no longer yours to control once you sell it. What is done physically with that item is no longer your concern, including reselling.

    Your intellectual property is yours alone, and no one has the right to claim your image for their own use, on their own cc.
     
  47. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    It seems to me that, according to you, anyone who uses their wits, strategy, determination, perseverence, etc. is somehow cheating/dishonest.

    [/ QUOTE ]Rubbish. Where's any skill in taking someone else's stuff and slapping a price increase on it? None at all.

    Or are you trying to say that people who don't do that only have themselves to blame for not sinking as low as everyone else... like afk cheaters, botters, people that fill their properties with hidden sims to artificially inflate their visitor hours, etc etc etc?
     
  48. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    This is absolutely correct - in your imagination. But it is not a tenet of law.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well, I believe you are incorrect, and my stance is backed up by the policies and disclaimers I have seen on websites of people who create unique work such as this, and cease and decist notices that I have seen when people violate such user agreements and the creator has cared enough to pursue it. Look around on the net, and you too will see some of the same kinds of statements that I am talking about, along with the exact verbage of the laws that back up the claims and cause the complaints filed to be won. I suppose there will be those here that won't believe it though until such complaints are filed within the game. *shrugs* That's fine, it just goes to reinforce nodgree's statement with regards to ethics.
     
  49. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    OK go to the #2 store and offer them a deal and explain why. Make sure the merchandise you offer them is unique and have them price it slightly lower then the other store. [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I think I'm just going to chose my descriptions wisely. That way, if a store chooses to resell, they will only be making themselves look bad [​IMG]

    I do like the auction idea. I'd actually love to work with a store or 2 if we could negotiate something beneficial to both parties [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    So basically you are saying that you have no problem with other stores selling your items or with selling them for what the market will bear, at an auction.....

    .....you were just mad that someone else was smart enough to charge more money than you did....and wouldn't give you a cut? [​IMG]
     
  50. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    I just wanted to put this whole issue up for debate because I am not the only one its happening too. I mean, we all should have figured it was only a matter of time before the greedier of the store owners realized they could take advantage of selling other peoples work to make thier own profit. It boils down to raw ethics. What kind of person you are, will you be honest and ask before selling another persons work, will you respect thier asking you not to, or will you just go ahead and do it to make yourself a profit?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I agree with you, but it's been known that the human race was greedy as a whole for a looooooong time, that's *why* we're given tools, like that disclaimer I told you about, to protect ourselves legally, so that we have a recourse to defend ourselves when somebody does something wrong, because ethics just don't mean what they ought to mean to the majority of the human race anymore. In the days of 'Little House on the Prairie' (timeframe late 1800s to early-mid 1900's) a man's word and handshake was enough to seal a deal, and if someone renigged on that they were looked down upon, way down upon, by the entire community. Nowadays a person is considered a 'good business man' by how many loopholes he can find to crawl through and the person wrong is looked at as an 'idiot' because they didn't protect themselves, so they 'can't blame the other guy for trying to get a leg up'. Pfffft, it's a sad sign of the times, especially considering these are PIXELS we're talking about. Someone that scams is rotten enough, but someone that scams over pixels is just the lowest of the low, IMO, because even IF cash-in was in place, the RL profit value wouldn't be all that much, so it's just petty and malicious to skim it when someone has clearly said 'Don't do this with my work. It's mine, you are buying rights to display it in your home, not rights to redistribute it to others for the purpose of profit.'

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Is it that you don't understand, or that you refuse to understand?
    It has been clearly pointed out by several people that this is not about illegal copying and/or distribution. It is about individual items.

    There is no 'disclaimer' that pertains to the subject of this thread.