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Cute Risk vs. Reward Story

Discussion in 'UHall' started by GalenKnighthawke, Jul 15, 2010.

  1. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I have been working up a new character, which is pretty rare for me. Just for the fun of it and for RP reasons. (Been far too long since I've roleplayed anyone but Galen and the various secondary characters I've made over the years, who exist for no other reason than to do stuff he doesn't feel like doing.)

    I was in Despise with this new fellow, in Trammel, killing Ogre Lords. I decided to see how well he'd to fighting three at once. He did not do well, and died. "Oh well," I thought. "I'll just take the teleporter to Terathan Keep, walk to the Star Room, and take the Moongate to Ilshenar."

    Then I remembered in Trammel and the teleporter to Terathan Keep doesn't exist there. (Unless something's changed radically in the relatively recent past.) I faced a much longer walk to a much less safe rez location than I would've if I was Felucca. It was kind of funny.

    Fellies often use "risk vs. reward" as a kind of stock phrase. The intent I think is to say that Fel is riskier and hence the reward would be greater. But sometimes the only way that's actually true is if risk is defined as risk of dying to another player.

    And that's not a greater risk, it's just a different kind of risk. Further, it's in essence a self-referential definition of risk, and that really doesn't get us anyplace.

    I have no plans on taking this character to Felucca, and I'm not asking for a teleporter to be put in Despise in Trammel similar to the one in Felucca.

    Assuming risk doesn't refer to permanently destroying your character's effectiveness in some way, which should never happen in any MMO, then risk can only mean possibility of dying and being temporarily inconvenienced, with varying risk levels referring to exactly how quickly you can get back up. So, for example, the Abyss poses more "risk" than does a Dungeon of Sin, in most but not all circumstances. You're more likely to die and more likely to have a rougher time coming back if you do.

    And in this case I encountered this morning, Trammel was considerably risker than Felucca. Even if I'd died to another player, it still would've been a shorter walk to a safer rez location.

    *shrugs* Just a little perspective.

    -Galen's player
     
  2. BuzZzZ

    BuzZzZ Guest

    Whats the risk? Losing insurance money?
     
  3. slaveone

    slaveone Guest

    I think for most who hash out this Fel Risk vs Reward nonsense the risk they are implying is of you dying to one of their LeEt DoOd gimplate characters.
     
  4. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    .....

    My last 2 full paragraphs kind of answer this, as to what risk means in this context. So I'll just quote them.

    And in this context, some of the specifics of the risk (exactly what happens, meaning losing insurance money and being temporarily inconvenienced) are exactly the same in Trammel and Felucca.

    What's different, what makes Trammel "riskier" in this particular case, is that in Trammel it takes more time to get back up.

    -Galen's player
     
  5. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    I dunno, if he was too lazy to read the first post before replying... why would he read the second?
     
  6. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    'Cos it's shorter!

    *chuckles*

    -Galen's player
     
  7. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    Well let me ask you this. Which is more risk Fighting 3 ogre lords in Despise at one time or fighting 3 ogre lords in Despise along with fighting 2 reds at the same time?
     
  8. Freelsy

    Freelsy Babbling Loonie
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    The only place where there is anykind of risk vs reward is on Siege and Mugen. The only two places where you can lose all your precious items if killed.
     
  9. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    That assumes I see any reds at all.

    If I die, I suffer the same consequences, save for the fact that in Trammel I take about 3 times as longer to get back in-action.

    *shrugs*

    -Galen's player
     
  10. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Is that why you all are always on here asking for it to be easier to get Faction Artifacts on Siege? So that you can have more of those precious items that supposedly you're too tough to need and that losing is supposedly half the fun anyway?

    -Galen's player
     
  11. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
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    When reading this statement, it is impossible to tell whether it is referencing Trammel or Felucca. Perhaps that is by design.
     
  12. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I could be wrong but from the other posts he's made, complaining that Cal doesn't talk enough about a custom rules shard for example, from his post I inferred the following: "In Trammel there's no risk save losing insurance money." I responded according to that interpretation.

    But you're right, as phrased his post is, by itself extremely unclear.

    -Galen's player
     
  13. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I don't think anyone suggested we were too "tough" to need items, we all use items as much as any other shard. And yes, the fact that they can be lost is a big part of the fun, but there needs to be a reasonable method for getting new ones. Because while its less fun when no one loses anything, its also less fun when you don't have gear to play with. Just looking for a balance.
     
  14. Ls Jax Ls

    Ls Jax Ls Visitor

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    UO PvP should be based on acquiring new items you currently don't have, not keeping ones you already do. There is absolutely no reason to lose your entire suit from dying. I don't see the point in looting someone ELSE'S suit which was specifically crafted for their particular character...what am I going to do with someone's random suit? They're going to miss it a lot more than I am going to benefit from it.

    Champ spawns were the perfect implementation in PvP. The risk is working up the entire spawn only to have it taken away by a raid and the reward is obvious. Now, every new desirable item can be obtained in tram which is causing PvP to suffer.
     
  15. The only risk in UO is getting hacked.
    Aside from that Fel, Tram and even Siege is a care-bear land.

    Though Siege is less care-bear-ish.
     
  16. Exactly, you all risk and put time in. I just buy it. There are so many of you doing it, the price is reasonable.

    Merchanting is a game play style that works for UO but as I have said it has made me a glutton for gold.

    My suggestion... I dont have any. In a way you risk your time and items cause they can get stolen. But once acquired and insured the risk is gone.

    Your situation is more of a reward for conquering. Who will be rewarded and bag of send or insure it first. If cursed who gets to the bank without dying.
     
  17. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
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    I was trying to make a subtle point that you missed. Let's try a different approach. The following two statements are true:
    • In Trammel there's no risk save losing insurance money.
    • In Felucca there's no risk save losing insurance money.
     
  18. Splup

    Splup Guest

    The "risk" in felucca is losing what you had just worked for. For example making champ and getting raided, collecting gold and getting killed+looted, collecting anything which can't be insured and getting killed+looted. In tram when you die you get ressed and run to get ur stuff back, no-one loots em.

    That's why there's double resources, fame, champs etc. On many shards the risk is just very small atm. cause lack of players (which leads to lack of raiders). But then again, it just means anyone can go there so equal for everyone. Being blue doesn't prevent someone from going to felucca.

    And yeah, ofc losing some eyecandy is not real risk like someone here stated. But that goes for every game... If ppl want real risks they go ride an alligator.

    Btw... Dying to a mob which has only melee? Was your character grippled and computer crashing while your modem was burning? rolleyes:
     
  19. Freelsy

    Freelsy Babbling Loonie
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    That's a big negative. Way to fail on subjects you have no idea about.
    I don't need an increase in items. I don't care if there is a reduction in silver prices. Would it be nice? Yes. Do I need it? No.

    You see, Siege has a small player base. There wernt thousands of people farming Moonglow during the event obtaining millions of artifacts for use, or to be sold. Over the years now, those that have collected have quit, items have been lost. Houses have fallen, accounts have been deleted.

    Main reason everyone asked for a re-introduction of cursed arties is to get the new players interested in the pvp scene and allow others to equip easier/cheaper. Also with faction artifacts. Its the same argument. At 5x the cost, to equip a decent mage its, i believe, 100k silver. You go out, die, well you better go farm up another 100k silver, or buy your suit back for 800k-1mill.

    Again, I say. The requests were to help out the newer player base and to encourage others to participate in faction fights. Who wouldn't want to fight if prices were reduced, items were easier to get. Pk'ers still get their fun by killing. You still get a reward for kill. Others have fun learning the game without breaking their bank account. Its a win/win for everyone.




    Now we return you to your original thread!
     
  20. Your point is well spoken. I would wager that most in favor of a classic shard would consider the loss of insurance money in a hyperinflated economy as low risk.

    The subject of risk is, of course, always dependent on the eyes of the beholder. I tend to believe that the Age of Shadows changes permanently devastated the once player run economy and made PvP directly dependent on PvM. These two things are far more damaging than the impact on risk vs. reward (though as I said above: insurance money in a hyperinflated economy is no real reward for a PvP battle).
     
  21. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    NO.... what causes PvP to suffer is the actions of other players... the Zerg Gank Squad guilds... and the flagrant cheating and use of 3rd party programs.

    Obtaining stuff in Tram does NOT cause any suffering in Fel... these people wouldn't go to Fel anyway just to get things... If this WERE actually the case you would see TONS of Trammies at the Primevil liche spawn.... which is NOT the case.
     
  22. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Hmm.

    You appear to have missed my point, actually, which ironically dovetails nicely with yours.

    I feel, however, that I have rephrased it enough times now.

    Thanks for the chuckle, though.

    -Galen's player
     
  23. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Which is more risk Fighting 3 ogre lords in Despise at one time or fighting 3 ogre lords in Despise along with fighting 2 reds at the same time?

    I would say the PURER definition of risk would be just the 3 Ogre Lords. Add 2 reds and the outcome is basically 99% certain, thus really negating the point of "risk"... at that point, it's just a "gank".
     
  24. Freelsy

    Freelsy Babbling Loonie
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    No. The risk does not come from fighting said monster. The risk comes from potential attacks from aggressive players. You know that going in. The reward is higher fame, more resources. More bang for your buck. If you are ganked, well, you "risked" and you lost.
     
  25. Jhym

    Jhym Guest

    I guess I don't understand of the pvp/seige mentality when it comes to taking people's stuff off their corpses.

    In the old days, it made perfect sense to take reagents, perhaps even a piece or two of the armor or the weapons, because you didn't want the person to come right back into a battle as if nothing had happened.

    These days, on standard shards insurance and blessed items pretty much clears that process entirely.

    However, on seige they have the risk of coming back and pretty much being out of the battle entirely.

    What I have issue with there, is that seige like to say it ISN'T like standard shards. You mention ransom for their suit -- isn't that pretty much insurance?
    You're paying something to get your things back.

    But fine, no quibble about semantics. Even if it isn't like insurance, I guess I fail to see why a pvper would want to take an opponent's things EXCEPT as trophies -- and if you're taking them to supposedly stop them from fighting, you're assuming they have no other equipment which is just.. odd. If you're a supposedly good pvper you should have comparable equipment, so you don't need it. If you're settled on Seige you should have ways to get money or people who back you up.

    I guess I don't get the mentality that it's fine to take anything and everything and walk off with it, no matter what it is or who it is.

    ... not to off track, but I am curious. What if pvpers could have a second option to "clear em" -- click target the corpse, everything on it and on the person goes into a "bucket". The bucket is what you are ransoming. You pick an amount or let the system choose one, and the other player has to pay the ransom to get their items. Perhaps you could even demand certain items.

    That way, there's no personal interaction, no accusations, no pancakes, just "pay for it and you can have it all back, no questions."

    So, how many Seige and Feluccans would go with that option instead of loot dry?

    If some are truly all about the battle and the "fun", they should all say yes.

    if some are more about pissing off the other players, then they likely would say no.
     
  26. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    I would disagree. "Risk" would mean an expectation of a multitude of outcomes (thus "reward"). Getting ganked has no reward as the only outcome for the person getting ganked is, well, getting ganked, and it has no risk for the gankers because, well, they set themselves up to experience as little risk as possible.

    Sorry, but it falls apart for me.

    I've always found the non-con PvP "risk" argument to be completely and totally one-sided. ("Your risk, our reward") which to me doesn't really fit a logical definition of "risk"... unless you're going by the standard of "If you jump off a 100 ft cliff onto a rockbed below, you 'risk' dying".

    Risk implies an unkown, getting ganked doesn't.
     
  27. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/risk

    1. The possibility of suffering harm or loss; danger.
    2. A factor, thing, element, or course involving uncertain danger; a hazard: "the usual risks of the desert: rattlesnakes, the heat, and lack of water" (Frank Clancy).

    Going to Fel it is uncertain if a red is going to come across you, and if a red does come across you the red might not attack, once again uncertain.
     
  28. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    The thing is going by the actual "what if" scenario, you've PASSED the uncertainty point. It's no longer a "risk" of happening, if it is happening.

    Fighting 3 ogre lords AND 2 Red PvP characters is no longer a risk... at that point it's probably either a gank (if you either try to escape or simply don't have the option or opportunity to fight back), or suicide (if you DO try to fight 5 on 1 odds). Either way... the possibility, uncertainty, and outcome are pretty certain by that point and thus the risk is gone... by that point it's a "sure bet".
     
  29. thenow

    thenow Guest

    A minor point, use self res. A red can not use that. Another minor point try recall from undead spawn in fel and the recall from some place in tram ( have to be alive ofcourse :p ).
    Besides that I think this discussion is another endless debate forever chasing itself, and probably shouldn't be taken too seriously.
     
  30. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I certainly didn't intend for it to be taken too seriously.

    In fact, I don't take any aspect of the "risk versus reward" "debate" terribly seriously. Very few participants in it actually mean risk or reward in any meaningful sense. What they usually mean is "incentive to draw non-PvPers to Fel so they can be attacked."

    -Galen's player
     
  31. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Indeed not.

    However, it isn't limited to Trammel or Trammel players. A blue Fellie can use it too.

    I thought of that, in terms of its relevance to the discussion. Your implication appears to be that I'm not aware of the recall rules in Trammel dungeons versus Felucca dungeons. Of course, how likely is that to be true, given that I immediately thought of the Terathan Keep teleporter in the Felucca version of Despise! Clearly I've been to Felucca Dungeons, and in fact, given that I immediately thought of the teleporter, I've probably been in the Fel dungeons more than in the Tram ones.

    However, in terms of the incident, I was already dead, and thus couldn't recall.

    And that got me thinking about the "risk vs. reward" "debates" that go on here. And I realized, or rather was reminded, that the debates were in essence meaningless. Both facets have their risks. In Felucca, more likely to have a player attack you in Despise, but in Trammel if you do die it's harder to get out and find a rez.

    -Galen's player
     
  32. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    I think the problem in the current thread is one of terminology. As I stated above, "Risk" infers an unknown event. Yes, in Fel there is a risk of being attacked by another player. Yes, that is a difference in the risk between Trammel and Felucca.

    HOWEVER...

    In this thread, the issue being discussed (even in the "what if" scenario of adding 2 red attackers to the 3 ogre lords) is NOT "risk", but "setback".

    Based on the specific situation provided, the Setback of the given situation is either equal or higher than in Fel. The outcome is already known (character death), therefore the risk portion has been surpassed, next comes the Setback involved in death.

    So let's start at the corpse:

    Fel (2 red attackers): Items left on corpse are either looted or left alone based on intrinsic player value, Insured items deduct gold and stay on character, Blessed, newbied, etc items stay on character.

    Tram: Items left on corpse. (Note: At this point it is perfectly feasible that certain items could be looted based on monster AI (gargoyles are NOTORIOUS looters as are daemons and liches, not sure about ogre lords), at which point it tends to go gold, then gems, then larger stacks of items, then higher NPC value magic items (all based on value).

    Outcome: Fel setback is probably a bit higher dependent on what's left on the corpse.

    Next we go to the aspect of "time to ress and return"

    Fel: Outlined in the OP the pathway to teleport through certain locations to escape.

    Tram: Outlined in OP that there are no teleportation systems involved to speed up the process.

    Mitigating factors to the time issue:

    1. While there is no "easy out" from the location presented in Tram Despise, there is also the option of "Help I'm Physically Stuck" to be telestormed to the town of player's choice which can actually speed up this process (can also be done in Fel).

    2. Trammel Dungeons can be marked and recalled back into. If the character has an insured arcane item, insured 100% LRC, a runebook with charges, or uses Chiv for Sacred Journey, this return trip can occur within several second of being ressed.

    Of course #2 also depends on the player's desire or need to return to the body to try and reclaim the lost items, or if they decide to let those items be lost without the attempt to regain them. which becomes a HUGE mitigating factor to the "time setback" issue.

    So "risk" is really the wrong term when discussing what happens when a character does in fact die (again by this point, the risk has been surpassed by the outcome), it's simply a question of "setback" and how that setback is defined (in terms of time and items/profit) and mitigated through optional courses of action.
     
  33. Percivalgoh

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    Risk vereses reward is just silly nonsense. The risk is not having fun and the reward is having fun. Why risk not having fun if you are allready having fun?
     
  34. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Man Dermott I want to use the GM's on your shard..... Where Galen and I come from a page "Help I'm stuck" will take at LEAST 5 min or more and the GM comes to SEE if you are infact STUCK if not well they will tell you so.. and then you can start your long walk out of the dungeon.....

    Secondly.... on a newbie warrior I doubt you can mark ...... so that option is out too......

    I don't know about you but I don't have magery on my warrior.... and I can't mark at all.
     
  35. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Last time I used it (not too long ago... maybe a month or so?) Help I'm Physically Stuck was still using the automated system that froze your character, gave you a list of cities and teleported you there after a delay (which increases each subsequent used within a given time frame).

    Did this change outside of LS?

    Oh and just because you can;t mark yourself doesn't mean you can't obtain a rune to the certain location (again assuming it is markable) or a rune to a much closer point to the said location that is markable if the location itself is not.
     
  36. HD2300

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    Risk vs Reward is nonsense.

    1. All PvPers would be playing Siege if they truly believed in "Risk vs Reward", not some kindergarden version of "Risk vs Reward".

    2. Everyone agrees that Siege is the lowest populated shard.

    3. Debate over.
     
  37. Yen Sid

    Yen Sid Guest

    QFT :thumbup1:
     
  38. longshanks

    longshanks Guest

    [/QUOTE]

    Champ spawns were the perfect implementation in PvP. The risk is working up the entire spawn only to have it taken away by a raid and the reward is obvious. Now, every new desirable item can be obtained in tram which is causing PvP to suffer.[/QUOTE]

    This is true. The reward is debatable for regular champs where almost all the 120's with the exception of Magery and Mysticism can be had for 5 million gold or considerably less. Under the current game mechanics, you can get much much richer obtaining items on the Tram side. Fel is for fighting now, controling despise does not have the same reward it did several years ago.

    I don't see this changing either. It is not a coincidence that outside of scrolls, every desriable item that can be used by a player to go into combat with can be obtained on the tram side. This allows the full player base equal chance to obtain said item, and does not create a monopoly on such items if they were in fel and the means of obtaining them were easily controlled by a zerg guild.

    As for Seige. I'm not into the debate about where seige stands in the risk vs reward debate vs prod shards. I'm also not getting into the dry loot aspect of seige.

    Seige's main problem is that it is a unique shard in game and it is not treated as such by the EA staff. You have seen this clearly from previous posts by many in the Seige community, imploring EA for changes needed specifically for Seige and it seems it falls on deaf ears.
     
  39. thenow

    thenow Guest

    I am aware you go to Fel, I've read enough of your posts to be aware of that. My points were that the debate could be argued until u get raided in an Oceania spawn (if u get raided at all :p). Another minor point is, risk verses reward as cartoon warrior in a make-believe dangerous environment. I do realise my last point is irrelevant, but its not the only point here that is.
    Fel or Tram, there is no more risk then being red but as a murderer being rewarded is not intelligent. As a red u can't honor urself when fighting in tram or Fel :p . As a red , u can't have a cup of tea with the nice old lady that lives down from u, who bakes ya a cake if u visit. She is a nice old lady.

    PS- Galen, I was never talking in particular to you, just overall to whole
    discussion.And I realised my points could/will be debated
     
  40. Gidge

    Gidge Sage
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    Are there not things that drop from the harrower, and from those Abyss PvP spots that can not be obtained another way?

    powerscrolls? am i missing something here?

    i remember being pk'd just to be pk'd. there was nothing other than taking my stuff that that gave them any glory. There were those that fought back, and thus, PvP was born.

    PvP is just that Player vs Player. There is no reward for fighting other than the bragging rights of the fight.


    You wish to be encouraged to beat the sh*t out of someone?


    again... am i missing something?

    just asking.
     
  41. Splup

    Splup Guest

    He's asking for PvP:rs to have something to fight for. These things bring PvP:rs to same spot and give that extra motivation for fighting.

    Like powerscrolls, there's no better way to get PvP action then popping up a harrower or doing desp and telling in general chat that despice lvl 3 or 4.

    It also helps to bring PvP away from places like Yew which is flat ground with houses for house hiding. In dungeon fights the real skills show up, who using environment better. Who can adjust their gameplay for that situation.

    Yeah, we many ppl PvP for just PvP. But giving us something to fight for sure makes it even more fun and exciting.

    But like someone stated before, we could use something new. We have fought for powerscrolls for maaany years, and powerscrolls start to be really cheap.
     
  42. Fink

    Fink Guest

    Why not?
     
  43. Coppelia

    Coppelia Guest

    Because Galen has a suicides-in-loop disorder when playing MMOs. :/
     
  44. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    1) You are positive that you alone know the true meaning of the word "risk" as it implies to Uo?
    No offense but your OP and replies are condescending & obviously biased.

    2) To anyone that plays all facets and is unbiased the long-running Fel/Tram risk vs reward debate has always been about the supposed "risk" of interaction with other hostile players.
    I personally believe that since the inception of insurance there is zero risk on any facet other then Felucca but I realize that is just a personal preference of mine and not a universal truth

    3) If the time spent going from point A to point B (on any darn facet) is in any way a part of your personal "risk" factor I feel sorry for you sir, lol.
     
  45. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    The same reason, more or less, that you after you lose at Chess you don't start the next game bereft of, say, a Knight.

    -Galen's player
     
  46. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    It's not fun, and would be frustrating to a degree that it would make many people quit that game.
    (in my opinion)
     
  47. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    My views are biased.

    *gasps!*

    I never knew!

    I guess that's why they are called views.

    Your views are, obviously, also biased, given this next statement....

    Which is not just biased, but tautological. Yes. When you define risk as interaction with hostile players, risk means interaction with hostile players, thus meaning Felucca. (Unless you're warred, which I am actually.)

    However, when you define risk as running into the Slasher of Veils, that necessarily implies The Abyss. And Running into a paragon balron, necessarily implies Ilshenar (or an EM event in any facet).

    Obviously not given the tone and language of your message.

    Also, think about that....Zero risk in any facet but Felucca, due to insurance. Of course, insurance also applies in Felucca. So you're not risking your items in Felucca any more than in, say, Malas, unless of course you run into an insurance hacker, but surely you can't be saying that running into a cheater is part of playing the game. If so, I hope for the sake of your potential opponents that you don't play Chess, and I hope for your own sake that you don't play Poker in Las Vegas.

    So by definition, that'd mean zero risk anywhere including in Felucca.

    Of course, as established, your definition of risk involves running into hostile players. See above for a response to this. Your definition is circular and tautological.

    I feel sorry for you, because you mistake tautology for analysis.

    My point, of course, as most responders to this thread appeared to realize, is that the only non-subjective definition of risk we can have involves risk of dying to anything, thus the possibility and degree of inconvenience. Because death in UO just means being temporarily inconvenienced.

    It was always this way, by the way, because in the days before item insurance, items were important but less so. So death meant, for example, losing your full plate Gm suit and your GM, DPed katana until you could find another. Later it meant losing your Valorite Runic and GM Barbed studded suit.

    Either way, the point is that "risk" meant the risk of being temporarily inconvenienced, where it's 10 minutes of severe inconvenience and it ends there, or 10 minutes of severe inconvenience followed by a few days (or hours, or weeks as the case may be) of mild inconvenience.

    This is the only real definition we have without falling into tautologies.

    You cannot reasonably define risk of particular encounters, because it will result in a circular analysis. The riskiest facet to play in will necessarily be that which happens to have whatever encounter you happen to deem the riskiest.

    Whereas my definition involves objective aspects of gameplay. Dying, and how long it takes you to bounce back from a death.

    And in the case I encountered, per this definition the risk was greater in Trammel because it meant I was out-of-action for a noticeably longer period.

    Please note, my definition means that the riskiest kind of play in UO currently is Factions; losing even in Faction-related PvM means you're out of action, or have lessened effectiveness, for 20 minutes. In almost every other form of play I can think of it's closer to 10 at most.

    -Galen's player
     
  48. Fink

    Fink Guest

    That's a good analogy in twitchy FPS games where you have a fixed set of available items per round and simply respawn upon death, but in UO you accumulate more pieces all the time. We have perma-gain but no perma-loss.

    As it is, you risk next to nothing. People are fine with this because they die so often. People are fine with dying so often because they risk nothing. And so on.

    My suggestion of meaningful death would of course be balanced with meaningful life. As an example, look at the way pets are simply ressed and thrown back into the fray because they only lose 0.1 skill per death. If they lost 5.0 most people wouldn't be so cavalier about it. The same would apply for human death. Of course we love our twitch, so some provision for PvP would be necessary to sustain that playstyle as people currently enjoy it.

    Perhaps not an ideal implementation for UO, but I still disagree that it "should never happen in any MMO".
     
  49. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    1) In your own words all your "views" are biased. I of course have known this for a long time but thanks for making it clear to everyone else.
    FYI - It is quite possible to have unbiased views. It is in fact the preferred type of "view" on any kind of Forum.

    2) Did somebody peel off their 'word of the day' calendar and discover the word "tautology" lol?

    Bottom line is that I made 3 quick points and they are still quite valid:
    Your entire OP was a biased waste of time dragging up the ancient risk vs reward debate. And the only reason I wasted my time replying to your nonsense was because you obviously didnt even understand the debate in the first place.

    Again, I feel sorry for you if your definition of true Uo risk is having to spend time going from Point A to Point B (in Trammel no less) *Fel bias alert

    Btw, nice job attempting to compare Uo to chess. Such an incredibly inept comparison that at first I thought you must be kidding but sadly I was mistaken.
    It only goes to show how little you understand the game :(
     
  50. Kojak

    Kojak Lore Master
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    I can't believe that after like 7 years of Trammel, you guys still feel the need to write daily novels about it - I guess I just don't understand the mindset of lunat