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DCI CAP CLARIFICATION PATCH 81

Discussion in 'UHall' started by virem, Feb 13, 2013.

  1. virem

    virem Sage
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    The cap is still going to be 45 right? Like when you are not under the effects of HLD the max DCI possible is still 45? There is a lot of talk about 95 DCIs "caps" etc etc. The way I read everything, you will need 95 DCI to be HLD proof (instead of 70). What is the deal?
     
  2. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Oh wow, for some reason I just noticed the HLD change from the old Publish 81 notes.

    Is that still in?

    If so I was reading the new Publish 81 notes very wrong. I had thought that the new Notes totally superseded and over-wrote, rather than supplemented or amended, the old notes.

    -Galen's player
     
  3. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    We will see when it comes to test center. The 95 DCI for HLD is just to much. That totally nerfs the need for HLD. As if the rng wasn't enough of a problem.

    Now I agree that mages in PvP should have a better way to defend vs dexers in the field, but this should come with the addition of skills on top of the current system.
    The removal of tactics for special moves which would give mages more options such as better disarm and counters with the addition if applied Parry would be preferable over a itme based system. This way at least they invest skill points. I would even forgo the 80 dex requirement than the 95 DCI.
     
  4. King_Fisher

    King_Fisher Journeyman
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    As far as I understand the "Useable" cap is at 45%, people previously HLD proofed themselves at 70% dci. This will no longer be possible, because now HLD will lower your DCI a percentage (I think 55%) so it doesn't matter how high you get your items. Even at 95DCI your still dropping down to 43% after a HLD.
     
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  5. virem

    virem Sage
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    Max Defense Chance Increase – Armor Refined to increase max Defense Chance Increase will provide a DCI cap bonus up to 95 while lowering max resists.

    what the hell does that mean??
     
  6. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Nerfs the need? yea right. It made HLD an absolute monster. You can no longer overcap HLD to be HLD proof (70-25from hld=45) Now with the formula at 95DCI the best you could get after HLD would be 43 (HLD drops dci by 55%)

    so here are some interesting numbers. I'd love to sit down and expand this to see the chances of being hit now vs. 45hci. But i kind of like it, i don't like when something can be completely negated.


    pre pub effect of hit lower defense

    45dci - lose 25dci, now have: 20dci
    50dci - lose 25dci, now have: 25dci
    55dci - lose 25dci, now have: 30dci
    60dci - lose 25dci, now have: 35dci
    65dci - lose 25dci, now have: 40dci
    70dci - lose 25dci, now have: 45dci (Hld proof)


    post pub 81 effect of hit lower defense

    45dci - lose 24.5dci(55%), now have: 20.5dci
    50dci - lose 27.5dci(55%), now have: 22.5dci
    55dci - lose 30.25dci(55%), now have: 24.75dci
    60dci - lose 33dci(55%), now have: 27dci
    65dci - lose 35.75dci(55%), now have: 29.25dci
    70dci - lose 38.5dci(55%), now have: 31.5dci
    75dci - lose 41.25dci(55%), now have: 33.75dci
    80dci - lose 44dci(55%), now have: 36dci
    85dci - lose 46.5dci(55%), now have: 38.5dci
    90dci - lose 49.5dci(55%), now have: 40.5dci
    95dci - lose 52.25dci(55%), now have: 42.75dci
     
    #6 Cetric, Feb 13, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2013
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  7. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    95-25= 70 DCI which negates HLD on a consecutive hit. Thus the Defender is still at 45 and still at the cap?
     
  8. O'siris

    O'siris Journeyman
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    This change is going to be awesome! No HLD proof people running around will definitely help those dexxers that have a difficult time hitting. And dont worry you are not going to be getting hit every single time.
     
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  9. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Read the numbers.
     
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  10. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    IMO HLD should be a % based on the difference between real skill in a combat skill. Two players with equal skill should cancel out any HLD. Players with different real skill should have a % calculation to reduce the opponents DCI scaling upwards to 55% at 120 skill difference.

    This returns the primary hit chance to a skill vs skill check rather than a suit vs suit check. The suit check would only happen when skills were not equal. Real skill should also be used to reward players who work the full skill.
     
  11. virem

    virem Sage
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    I have never used a HLD proof suit in my life, 70 HLD is for newbies. I just want to know for sure that 45 DCI is still the max DCI -- silly game.
     
  12. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Actually, 45dci getting hit by HLD is 0.5% better!!! rofl But yea, screw 70dci, i go over 45 but i rarely if ever hit 70
     
  13. Vexxed

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    Yea... Just to reference Cetric's post... With the NEW proposed HLD changes if you were one of the few rocking an HLD proof (70% DCI) suit, with the NEW HLD you'd drop to 31.5% DCI which equates to ...

    70% DCI suit.
    *Under NEW HLD effect = 31.5 DCI*
    45% Opponent hits you 55% of the time. If you have less than 70% DCI you get hit more heh... that's rough!
     
  14. Eaerendil

    Eaerendil Younger than Kelmo, but also in the way...
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    Phew, glad that I do only PVM. Hell, this is a science... Do you have to have a Ph. D. or something like this to understand that stuff? I am such a horrible Noob!
     
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  15. Vexxed

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    LoL it's not really a Science... PvP is really just basic counting. "Opps, now I'm fighting 2 on 1 umm... trouble! OK here comes a 3rd = Time to go" If you can count your usually all good, even if it's "Hmmm there's only 3 of US & 1 of him.... we might need more backup !"
     
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  16. Eaerendil

    Eaerendil Younger than Kelmo, but also in the way...
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    So, when I count 3 naked men with clubs and I am suited in a godly uber-dexxer-gear and equipped with a legendary vicious longsword of haste, I should rather run away, yes? Ok, then I can count :gee:
     
    #16 Eaerendil, Feb 14, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
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  17. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    You should ALWAYS run away from naked men with clubs. Nothing good can ever come from that. :eek2:

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  18. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    All right, stop the car. I need to ask a serious question here. How is it that the developers put out a patch note which explicitly states that you'll be able to increase the DCI cap by sacrificing resists, and yet I see multiple people going "UH BUT THE CAP WILL STILL BE 45 RIGHT?"

    The cap will be 45 if you have not applied any Refinements to your armor. If you have applied Refinements to your armor, the DCI cap may be higher or lower depending upon what sort you have applied. You will be able to raise your DCI cap to at least as high as 95. Read. The. Notes.
     
    #18 KLOMP, Feb 14, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
  19. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    No science degree needed. It is simple, they are making HLD useful against everyone now (regardless of DCI).
    • Current System. Effective DCI is capped at 45%. HLD applies a -25% to the target's DCI. To eliminate the effects of HLD you can use 70% DCI (45+25=70), so you will always be at the effective cap of 45% DCI (regardless if you are hit by HLD or not).
    • Proposed Change. Effective DCI is capped at 95%. HLD will reduce the target's DCI by 55% of its total value (or to 45% of its original value, which ever way you want to look at it (1-0.55=0.45)). Cetric shows the math earlier in this thread. This means you cannot overcap the DCI to avoid the effects of HLD, so HLD is effective against all opponents regardless of DCI.
    This is a great change for HLD. The developers hit a bullseye on this change. I wonder if a similar change to HLA will be made too.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  20. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    Incorrect.

    There is no 45% DCI cap AT ALL. According to the notes, DCI is capped at 95%. The armor refinements are one method of increasing your DCI (at the cost of resists). They do not change the DCI cap. The DCI cap will always be 95%, refinements or not.

    Publish notes for ease of reference:

    Stayin Alive,

    BG

    Ugh, for some reason it wont edit properly.
     
    #20 Barry Gibb, Feb 14, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
  21. Quickblade

    Quickblade Lore Keeper
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    Does that means we will no longer be able to put monsters in negatives DCI ? Example all monsters have 0% DCI so HLD on a monster would lower DCI by 55% of its DCI but since its 0 it will stay at 0? That sucks if its the case all my pvm weapons had HLD on them.... and also mace and shield and prismatic lenses will be useless in pvm?
     
    #21 Quickblade, Feb 14, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
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  22. Gorbs

    Gorbs Sage
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    In the name of diversity I'll be adding parry back to my mage.

    I wonder if this was intended to be a boon for crafters. I'll now need to carry two suits around. One will have 95 DCI and terrible resists. The other will have overcapped resists but terrible DCI. The dress/undress macro while running offscreen will become important.
     
  23. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    It would seem to me that this will make HLD absolutely required for a pvp dexxer. If players can increase the actual cap of DCI while no increase to HCI, dexxers without HLD will be going up against players with a DCI of 70, 80, 90... Which will make them very very hard to hit without HLD.
     
  24. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    I am curious to find this out as well.

    Maybe HLD can work similar to Block Chance with a Weapon, where there are two equations and it takes the value of only one. HLD would take the more favorable, for the atttacker, of these two scenarios (whichever reduced the target's DCI the most):
    • Apply -25 DCI (current) or
    • Reduce the target's DCI by 55% (proposed change)
    This would ensure that HLD remains useful for PvM and low DCI opponents. At High DCI, the proposed HLD formula would be used, where as at lower values of DCI, the current formula would be used. Graphically it would look like the chart below (use the lowest line). HLD would be have more of an affect on low DCI targets than high DCI targets, evidenced by the steeper slope of the "current" data.

    [​IMG]

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
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  25. Bleak

    Bleak UO Software Engineer
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    Here is the current implementation:
    Pub 80:
    Allows over capping of DCI.
    Max Defense Chance Increase is 45.
    HLD is -25 to current DCI.

    45dci - lose 25dci, now have: 20dci
    50dci - lose 25dci, now have: 25dci
    55dci - lose 25dci, now have: 30dci
    60dci - lose 25dci, now have: 35dci
    65dci - lose 25dci, now have: 40dci
    70dci - lose 25dci, now have: 45dci (Hld proof)

    Pub 81:
    Allows over capping of DCI.
    Max Defense Chance Increase is 45 by default but can be increased to 95 using Armor Refinement.
    HLD now scales -55% of current Max Defense Chance Increase to current DCI.

    max dci 45 & 45dci - lose 25dci, now have: 20dci
    max dci 45 & 50dci - lose 25dci, now have: 25dci
    max dci 45 & 55dci - lose 25dci, now have: 30dci
    max dci 45 & 60dci - lose 25dci, now have: 35dci
    max dci 45 & 65dci - lose 25dci, now have: 40dci
    max dci 45 & 70dci - lose 25dci, now have: 45dci (Hld proof)


    max dci 55 & 45dci - lose 30dci, now have: 15dci
    max dci 55 & 50dci - lose 30dci, now have: 20dci
    max dci 55 & 55dci - lose 30dci, now have: 25dci
    max dci 55 & 60dci - lose 30dci, now have: 30dci
    max dci 55 & 65dci - lose 30dci, now have: 35dci
    max dci 55 & 85dci - lose 30dci, now have: 55dci (Hld proof)
    .....

    You will see no change from Pub 80 to Pub 81 if you wish to not use Armor Refinement.
    Hope this answers your question.
     
    #25 Bleak, Feb 14, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
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  26. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Many thanks; much less of a nerf of current DCI levels than I had thought.

    May I suggest, though, that a 95 DCI cap is a tad.....Much?

    -Galen's player

     
  27. BeaIank

    BeaIank Babbling Loonie
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    So, HLD lowers you DCI accordingly to your max DCI rather than the amount of DCI you're wearing?
     
  28. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    Thank you.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  29. Quickblade

    Quickblade Lore Keeper
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    So Bleak to resume simple , HLD will now reduce by 55% of the target's Max DCI (which is the cap in other words) to the current value of its DCI % on his suit? So a warrior wearing example 70 DCI in all plate with a 95% DCI cap, under effect of HLD, he will loose 52 DCI ( 55% of his 95% cap) to his 70 DCI which leaves him with 18 DCI ? So having a high cap in other words is a desadvantage in that way? wow that make no senses
    I know that having 70 DCI default the warrior will be hard to hit at start but once he get hit with a HLD he drops to 18 % DCI thats so a big drop IMO... HLD should drop the cap and not the actual DCI and also armor refinements should increase both cap and actual DCI (and dont make it a hidden mod we want to see it on the armor)
     
    #29 Quickblade, Feb 14, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
  30. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    Perhaps it is lowering the cap rather than the actual DCI?
     
  31. Gorbs

    Gorbs Sage
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    So if you use the armor refinement to add to your maximum DCI you better hit that max DCI or you will be doubly penalized by having lower max resists and taking a higher loss of DCI when opp. HLD lands.
     
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  32. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    I'm actually still confused, maybe more confused. i thought my numbers of losing 55% were correct. i dont understand what you mean when you say "max dci 55 & 85dci"

    wtf... now im lost. going away for a while lol
     
    #32 Cetric, Feb 14, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
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  33. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Refined heavier armor will increase the DCI cap over 45.

    So under the new system if you have enough refined heavier armor to get a cap of 55, and wish to be HLD proof, you overcap your DCI by 30, for a total of 85 DCI, because only 55 of your 85 counts.

    He was explaining how, under the new system, to make yourself HLD proof.

    -Galen's player
     
    #33 GalenKnighthawke, Feb 14, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
  34. Otis Leroy Funk

    Otis Leroy Funk Journeyman

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    Why? Why make these changes?
     
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  35. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    So the armor refinement raises your dci cap from 45 to 55. whatever.

    So now, HLD takes 25dci down if your cap is 45, but 30dci down if your cap is 55?...

    i'll wait until whatever the hell it is is live before i understand the change. I'm very detail oriented but some of this just irritates me.

    Lets leave this "alter your cap" junk out of the equation.
     
    #35 Cetric, Feb 14, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
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  36. KLOMP

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    Jesus Christ, every time it seems too complicated it just gets worse. God I am just so fed up with this ****.

    Just stop it devs. Just stop doing things. This is the stupidest thing I've ever seen. Gee you can raise your DCI cap up to 95. But a guy who raises his DCI cap to 95 and meets it is actually WORSE OFF than a guy with 70 DCI and a 45 cap. What a mess. They still won't even tell us if HLD works in PVM anymore.

    I give up, the game is ruined in hands like these.
     
    #36 KLOMP, Feb 14, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
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  37. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    So having re-read Bleaks response, if you do not use refinements increase your dci cap, these changes have no impact because 55% of 45 = 25. You will still be hld proof with 70 dci on the suit.

    However, if you do increase you base cap to run 55 dci, you get an addtional penalty applied to the hld effect of 5 points.
     
  38. chise2

    chise2 Sage
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    Yeah I am wondering the same myself. I was happy at first they seemed to be making HLD more important but this is this is just messed up. :/
     
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  39. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    No PVP dexer goes around without HLD, so now a guy who has 70/70 DCI is actually WORSE OFF than a guy who has 70 but left his cap at 45.
     
  40. Quickblade

    Quickblade Lore Keeper
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    they just want the HLD to be still meaningful on warriors that have hight DCI cap but these warriors better hit the cap and get actual 95 DCI on their suit or they will be alot penalized... I guess these clockwork exodus platemail legs will be useful.... but still they need to implement something for the HLD against monsters because with this new formula hitting monsters with HLD will do ZERO nothing. So forget these prismatic/ mace n shield lenses or HLD on your weapons its gonna be useless in pvm... so what I suggest for HLD in PvM is let the actual formula for HLD pub80: -25 DCI and let the monster go in negative -25.
     
    #40 Quickblade, Feb 14, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
  41. KLOMP

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    If they all they wanted wanted was for HLD to be meaningful, all they would have to do is make it ignore overcapping. Instead they added this bizzare system where a guy who raises his DCI cap to 95 and then stacks all sorts of items to meet that cap is actually a little worse off than the guy who just stayed at 45/70. If that guy who has 70 DCI raises his cap to 70 so he can use all of it, he's just nerfed himself for no reason.
     
  42. chise2

    chise2 Sage
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    Yeah this just makes no sense I hope they revert this change and do something else something like what you suggested. This is just silly!
     
  43. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    agree with everyone else. thought the hld change was good but now i think the whole idea is confusing and garbage
     
  44. Skelf

    Skelf Journeyman
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    SURPRISE ATTACK [20 mana, 60 min skill, 97.5 skill gives no chance to fail]:
    NOTES:
    - In order to use surprise attack you have to be in stealth mode (hide and then use stealth skill or take a step).
    - Tracking has NO effect on surprise attack

    When you attack from stealth, if you hit, you will lower your opponents ability to defend for a short period of time. [At 120 ninjitsu the effect is -50% DCI for 10 seconds!!!]

    Surprise Attack is going to need a boost to maintain the advantage it had over HLD.

    What bothers me though is how long it will take to land the first hit (and apply HLD) on a 95 DCI/120 Parry dexer. They might, of course, be mage fodder with lower resists.
     
  45. Bleak

    Bleak UO Software Engineer
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    Yes and No.

    Pub 81 Case 1:
    Player A has 75 Max DCI from Armor Refinement and has 75 DCI.
    Player B has 45 Max DCI and has 75 DCI.
    Both players have equal skill and HCI.

    Player B if hit with HLD will remain at 45 DCI due to over cap while Player A will be reduced to 34DCI.
    Player B by over capping wins in this case versus HLD but Player A benefits from the fact that they are able to reach 70% DCI.
    Player A while not under the effects of HLD is receiving a 9% defense increase over Player B.(Total Hit Chance)

    Pub 81 Case 2:
    Player A has 75 Max DCI from Armor Refinement and has 75 DCI.
    Player B has 45 Max DCI and has 45 DCI.
    Both players have equal skill and HCI.

    Player B if hit with HLD will be reduced to 20 DCI while Player A will be reduced to 34DCI.
    Since there is no over capping Player A is the clear winner: 20 DCI vs 34DCI
    Player A while not under the effects of HLD is still is receiving a 9% defense increase over Player B.(Total Hit Chance)
    Player A while under the effects of HLD is still is receiving a 6% defense increase over Player B.(Total Hit Chance)
     
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  46. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    and i thought we were trying to make things easier to understand.... bleak maybe this makes tons of sense to you because you coded it but this is overly complicated. im pretty good with this stuff and im even lost. i assume i speak for most players when i say i dont want to figure out these possibilies when i attack someone.
     
    #46 Cetric, Feb 14, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
  47. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    They just will NOT stop overreaching. Look devs, here is all you actually need to do:

    * Keep the thing where nonmed armor reduces stamina loss.

    * Give nonmed armor a bonus to max imbuing weight.

    * Give dragon armor real resists.

    * Make the slowest weapons 3.5s and scale down from there, damage balanced accordingly.

    * Two-handers do more damage and have much higher max imbuing weight.

    * If you want to make HLD more important, make it decrease DCI by 25 points or 50%, whichever is greater. Then it's still good in PVM. If you're not trying to buff the importance of HLD then LEAVE IT ALONE.

    Bam done. Finished. Complete. People wear nonmed again sometimes, dragon armor becomes useful, slow weapons become useful, two-handers become useful, and nobody needs to become a mathematician. Why are you making this so much more complex than it needs to be???
     
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  48. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    well said, very well said that 25dci or 50% seems pretty solid
     
    #48 Cetric, Feb 14, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
  49. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    Thank you for the walkthrough and examples. If you eliminate over capping of DCI, you will always get Case #2. Player A will be superior to Player B, regarding HLD. It makes sense and should be that way. Player A refined his armor at the cost of an unknow value of resists. HLD will always have some effect. Please keep Case #2.

    As it stands now, we have many Player Bs from Case #1. HLD has no effect on them. There should be no way to eliminate an ability, only ways to reduce its effects. Please get rid of Case #1.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  50. Fridgster

    Fridgster Lore Master
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    PVM is going to be very interesting with this change. At 95% DCI it would seem almost like god mode. Even if jacking up my dci drops my resists from the armor down to zero I'm still going to be unstoppable pvm wise. I would just jack my resist to 120 and get the 40 resists from that (not sure if that's accurate please correct if wrong). Then just spam feint. Even if the critter would hit me for 200 points naked I'd still only be hit for 60 HP. Up my HP to about 130 and that allows me take 2 hits in a row. What are the chances of my sampire getting hit 3 times in a row without me leeching life from it at 95% DCI?
     
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