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Dealing No Damage And Not Participating To Get Looting Rights

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Olcher, Aug 18, 2015.

  1. Olcher

    Olcher Crazed Zealot
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    Seems kind of silly that you can deal zero damage to a monster yet still get loot rights and be eligible for item drops off of said monster just from taking damage/dying over and over. Not healing, not barding, not resing other players, literally suiciding to boss monsters. Slither, power scrolls, artifact drops, etc. all are obtainable by this method. I know looting rights and drop distribution has changed a lot over the past few years but was this an intended side effect @Mesanna @Kyronix ? It's pretty broken if it was intended.
     
    #1 Olcher, Aug 18, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2015
  2. HoneythornGump

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    Totally disagree.

    Healers and bards play a pivotal role in UO, and couldn't get looting rights for 10+ years.

    The drop distribution has been an area of great improvement because it now allows other templates to reap the benefits.

    This was a great and long needed change.
     
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  3. Olcher

    Olcher Crazed Zealot
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    Sorry, I should have been more clear (in all fairness I did say "just from taking damage/dying over and over" which did not imply anything further anyways). I'm speaking of players that run naked/newbie characters, fresh out of Haven, in to suicide and die. They are not bards, they are not healing, nor contributing any way to the defeat of the boss. They can literally run, take damage, die, and repeat - nothing more. I agree bards and healers play a fantastic role and this system is nice for them and is deserved.
     
    #3 Olcher, Aug 18, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2015
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  4. HoneythornGump

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    You also stated "No Healing. No Barding. No resing."

    You were clear I just failed to read, and jumped to conclusions when I saw zero damage and looting rights.

    Certainly Kamakazi tactics shouldn't be rewarded.

    I take it this is happening at Events?
     
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  5. Scribbles

    Scribbles Babbling Loonie
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    Everyone drop or no one drop.

    Nothing will ever be "fair". Its an event that is supposed to be about a story line and gathering the community. Seems like everyone just talks about the drop. The EM system will continue to be a joke/corrupted until the drops are gone or provided for everyone.

    I rarely hear anyone in chat, forums or icq talk about how good the story line was... its only about the drop.
     
  6. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    The only way they can do what you are saying is to keep getting rezed, so a simple solution is to stop rezzing them. Problem solved.
     
  7. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    The EM's often provide a healer nearby for them to use whether anyone will rez them or not...

    I couldn't agree more... I personally would be fine if they only had EVERYONE items for participation and that's IT.... PERIOD. RARELY ever given... perhaps 2x a year...

    I personally attempt to thank the EM's for a good time and a wonderful evening whether I get a drop or not.
     
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  8. THP

    THP Stratics Legend
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    instant answer.
     
  9. Cyrah

    Cyrah Lore Keeper
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    Whoa, thank you for this information. I rarely covet an Em item but knew I would want that one from that event. I liked the event story. :( I tried and tried and tried and died and died and died , redid my armor, paid insurance, spent way too much time looking for my body , lost Lady & got no beautiful item.
    Others did and now I know how. Ty.
     
  10. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    UO is very casual. i take it for what it is. the things i enjoy very much in other games, and in life, are just not present in UO. I enjoy difficult encounters and working towards a goal. When you dont have to really do much to obtain that goal, i just lose interest. I go to the events for the story, hanging out with freinds, and of course the drops. I do not enjoy the combat at them, or any other combat in UO anymore because theres no challenge. I do not do any pvm anymore because its simply not challenging. whats the point of all the legendary gear if you dont need it for 99 percent of the games content?

    This was the devs decsion to tailor the game to a very casual market, and they will just have accept that they lose the market from gamers who like a more serious / engaging game.

    UO really has no end game content. Events used to be that when it was top damager, and i feel it was an excellent goal to work towards. many disagree who dont play the game for combat / armor / weaponry / skill. that is fine. In general, i think a game where you can obtain the same result from failing (dieing) as succeeding (completing the goal of defeating a boss thru needed healing / damage) is poor design and does not make for a feeling of accomplishment.

    Like i said, ive come to terms that UO is no longer what it was, and if im looking for what this aspect of UO which i used to love, ill just play another game. I still love certain things about UO but its lost all appeal in effort / accomplishment / reward.

    Pvp is the only aspect of UO that you actually need the gear that the devs took so much time and thought into when the dungeons and loot were revamped. it just doesnt make sense to me that they would change the game that much when only a very small percentage of players actually need this stuff to play. The only other explanation is they are creating a loot / encounter environment tailored to soloing, because legendaries make that extremeley easy.

    My hopes for the new expansion is that theres actually challenging content that must be worked very hard for to even be able to complete, but im thinking it just wont happen. which as i said is fine as well. ill talk to freinds and look at the pixels until UO closes its doors or i leave for another more engaging game.
     
  11. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    And people who bring multiple accounts and multi box to get duplicate drops are equally an issue.
     
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  12. Yadd of Legends

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    So I'm wasting my time building characters on various shards for EM events when I could just run in with a newbie character that keeps dying and become an instant millionaire with no effort? That's pretty insane.
    Edit: Of course if we all did that the boss would never die and nobody would get anything, would they? Personally I like to think I'm at least making some contribution.
     
  13. Zuckuss

    Zuckuss Order | Chaos
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    Who is to say that this means that they will be running every event this way? Perhaps some will be all inclusive drops and others will be based on damage inflicted and healing. What are we basing this on? One event? Has anyone actually confirmed that it is only going to be this way from now on or are we just speculating? Dont yall think that we might want to get some more data befor we go threatening to close our accounts?
     
  14. Captn Norrington

    Captn Norrington Trade Forum Administrator
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    It's actually been this way for quite a while, Olcher is just bringing up here what the majority of the rares community and hardcore event people have known for months. There have been a few people using this technique at every single event get drops for close to a year, and those people get the drop about 90% of the time based off of the "selling" threads in the rares forum. So, considering the people using the technique seem to get almost all the drops, it's fair to say that the majority if not all, of the events have been using this system to decide who gets the reward and will continue to do so until a developer changes it.
     
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  15. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    its been like this since the system changed zuckess. over a year. i know people who have 0 skill 0 armor and just suicide and get the drops. alot. i have very good characters, but sometimes i even have some bad luck, and just get killed and cant rez before the boss is dead and still get the drop (no damge, no healing, just damage taken). is that fair, i dont think so but its how the devs designed it. I also do absolutely nothing on my 1 tamer character. i dont do spells. i dont heal the dragon. i just let it die and get looting rights. i think thats stupid as well. now, in that same scenerio. if the dragons not taking damage, just doing damage to the boss, i know it wont get rights so i acutally have to cast spells.

    The event system is really a mess. People wanted casual / only looting rights needed. they got it. thats why we have scripting multiboxers and naked suiciders. just last night the boss died so fast i couldnt even get the bar. that was because the thrower multibox pods script agroed the boss instantly and led it away from the group. Its really a laughing stock for the players who dont use scripts / programs, and who acutally take the time to build characters. Good luck to the dexter whos actually wearing armor so he doesnt take much damage and cant get damage into the boss before the scripters massacre it. @Mesanna its getting worse. we've had a year. you might want to re-evaluate the naked no skill looting rights, and maybe do something to control the cheating.
     
    #15 Smoot, Aug 19, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2015
  16. Miri of Sonoma

    Miri of Sonoma Lore Keeper
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    *shakes her head* :facepalm:
     
  17. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    Now, on the other side of things, many people do see events primary purpose as a community activity that should be available to all. Yes, you can go to any shard with 0 skills and no armor and participate in that shards event and get the reward. As far as involving as many people as possible, yes the naked suicide being able to get the drop just as well as the home shard player who has fully developed skills and armor is acceptable if the premises of events is to be fully about equal participation and community involvement rather than most effort for best chance at reward. This is what many people see events as, so i would think they wouldnt have any problems with the current system.
     
  18. Spock's Beard

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    Received damage shouldn't be a criteria for item rewards. This sounds like a misbegotten attempt to "reward tanks" implemented by some developer who was playing a lot of WoW at the time.

    At the same time I've really had enough of you people whining about EM events constantly. On one hand you've got people like MalagAste who want to reduce the items to worthless participation trophies, and if everyone quits coming then good, Broadsword should just pay for an EM to roleplay with them and their five friends. Then on the other hand you've got people like Smoot who wish they'd go back to locking out everyone who isn't a cross-shard rares collector playing some super-damage template built for nothing but EM events. Both perspectives are full of crap.

    It's fine like it is. Except for the part where taking damage counts toward drops. Let's talk about that and not everyone's generic EM rage.
     
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  19. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    Yes! my thoughts exactly. Especially with the global loot system, antique jewels, and legendaries available to most players now at affordable cost the templates we would start seeing at events would be amazing :) it seems what antique jewels were made for, since they are amazing but where out fast, a character only used for a few hours a month at event would be perfect.

    I would love to build a 211 stam 800 skill point wrath thrower who also controls a greater dragon, or maybe an archer who also has spellweaving with max spell damage increase.
    it would be really fun, but theres no good reason in the game to do that right now.

    to be fair, the top damage system before really wasnt that competitive. you basically just needed a decent suit, full skills, and actually play well (mainly, Dont Die). maybe use consumables and an undertakers staff so if you did die you could get back to dps in a matter of seconds. no crazy legendaries. my top damage suits under the old system were all just imbued. most expensive item was a tangle.

    On a slightly more realistic note, yes, i agree it would make more sense to just take "damage taken" out of the looting rights equation.
     
    #19 Smoot, Aug 19, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2015
  20. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    Except that (as far as I understand it) the looting rights calculations are global... Not just EM mob specific. Damage taken is a relevant factor in most PvM encounters. Looting rights credit should be factored in for the player or players who tank up close and allow the range players to do damage relatively unmolseted.

    It would seem to me that the change that is needed is between the damage "dealt" vs "taken" to/by the character. For example... A freshly ressed character has what... around 10 hit points? If he runs to a mob and gets hit (with no armor on) for 120 damage he should only get credit for the 10 points he took before he died... Not the full 120.

    My assumption is that they are getting credit for the full 120, though I could be wrong. A freshly ressed character would need to die at least 15 times @ 10 points per death just to equal 1 AI. Would seem unlikely to me that with the speed at which most of the bosses at EM events die that res killing yourself would be enough to get looting rights... But would be much easier if you got credit for the full amount of the damage you got hit with regardless of how much (or little) it actually took to kill you.
     
  21. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    i would agree with you if there was any spell / ability that actually could differentiate a "tank" template from damage / healing one. theres currently no way for a player to actually keep a mob on him (except highest damage) So that person "tanking" the mob also has to be doing highest damage if he or she actually wants it to stay aggroed on him to tank it. since highest damage is already needed to retain agro, additional points dont need to be given to the damage taken.

    just my take on things.
     
  22. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    yes, they are getting credit for the full damage the mob does, no matter how many hit points they have. also, because they have no armor, their taking way more damage than someone with 70 resist. an average "death blow" from a boss does around 200 damage to a noob with no armor, while the same hit on a fully armored player only may do around 60 damage.
     
  23. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    Pets would be what I would think of... Pets just don't have near the capacity to deal damage as some other templates... And with other players who may be helping heal pets, you lose some of the healing... I think most tamers at EM events are getting their looting rights off damage taken, which I think is fair.
     
  24. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    Simply changing which damage number is used would eliminate the vast majority of the chance to get rights from res dieing and leave in tact the ability to get rights being a true tank.
     
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  25. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    a Spellweaving Tamer with a GD is the most adapted template to this current system. You meet all three expectations with flying colors.

    All of these complaints were forewarned prior to the change to the new system. You didn't see any of this in the top damager system, but unfortunately people were unable to figure out a template in order to make it more competitive against the ones who did.

    In all honesty the only option now would be an everyone drop, or no drop at all. If they change the system again, there will be new exploitations. Anytime you allow multiple ways to earn a drop you are asking for trouble. Simple street failed once again...
     
  26. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    Once you introduce spellweaving, the pet all but becomes irrelevant.
     
  27. Cyrah

    Cyrah Lore Keeper
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    Smoot is right. I saw tons of corpses of the same names while looking for my own. I felt bad for them. Ha, they got the item. One player I saw run up before it all began in newbie type armor. I noticed because I know him. I wondered why. Now I know.

    The cheating never ends, it just gets called by a different name by those who do it. :(
     
  28. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    How? A GD can tank a stomper which then boosts your chance at getting looting rights on "damage taken", SW adds a chance at "damage dealt" and healing your pet adds to a chance of "damage healed". This template allows you to generate a chance at all 3 possibilities of getting a drop. So I would say that adding SW greatly increases your chances in combination with your GD
     
  29. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    Except that the cumulative effect is pointless... 1 or 2 WoD virtually guarantees you looting rights... Everything else after that (in the current system) does not increase your odds.
     
  30. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    Actually, you need looting rights in order to acquire the chance to enter the RNG roll for the drop. Just cause you get looting rights doesn't automatically enter you in the roll because you might fall short of each threshold. There are three criteria that need to be met; Damage, Tank, Healing. So WoD might get you into top damage but it doesn't get you into the other two. Having the GD gives you a better shot at getting into the other 2 that were not met. Thus giving you the chance to roll 3 times rather than just 1.
     
  31. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    The point is there isn't 3 thresholds... Just one. Once you cross the threshold by any method you're in... More of anything else doesn't increase the odds. 1 or 2 WoD will get you across the threshold...
     
  32. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    http://www.uo.com/article/Publish-Origin-and-Izumo-Today-3172014
    Rewards distributed through the Event Moderator tool commonly referred to as “top attacker” or “top damager” will now function as follows:


    http://stratics.com/threads/confirmed-powerscrolls-bug-at-a-spawn.307634/
    Scroll down to Misk's breakdown.

    As of right now there has been no statement given that the system has changed since this. Is it technically random? Yes, but you still have to meet the thresholds given in order to be placed in the random RNG roll for the drop. So, there are in fact thresholds that need to be met, and meeting more than one increases your chance of getting the drop due to the possibility of rolling a 2nd or 3rd time.
     
  33. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    OK, so read it carefully... there is 1 top attacker list... just 1. There are several ways to get onto the list... damage taken, damage healed, damage dealt... you can use one of these methods or all of them... if you make the list, you make the list... period... there isn't a second list of runner-ups... if there are more drops than the top attacker list, then it will cycle back through the list...

    Here is an example you can test...

    Two characters do a baracoon... one sampire doing damage and healing themselves... the other a necro mage with a repond book doing corpse skin and flamestrikes while in wraith form... they will both get 3 scrolls... even though one had no damage taken or damage healed...

    One or two WoD on the event boss will get you on the top attacker list 99% of the time... extra damage dealt or healed or taken by the dragon doesn't increase your drop chance if you are already on the list of top attackers from WoD. Meeting more than one of the thresholds does not increase your chance of a drop as proved by the baracoon example above.
     
  34. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    except bosses that are immune to word of death. take legends. every single boss is a slasher. word of death is useless unless on that shard.
     
  35. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    Yes, there are instances where WoD is nullified, but there are examples of this for all templates.
     
  36. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    It is exploiting a loophole in the code.
    Used to be exploitation of the game was illegal.
    Now we have too much to police.
    If someone wants to play 12.99 to play their character this way is it right for us to say "no you can't"?
    I'm on the fence. Far too many people complain about drops or not getting drops or he got three characters here getting drops and I only have one and I didn't get one blah blah to infinity.
    No, I do not think every little boy and girl should get a trophy just for participating. If that were the game most wouldn't even bother.
    Should someone get a trophy for dying over and over and over without ever doing damage? No. Has it happened to me? Yes, more than once. (I only play 1 character at events)
    Reverting back to top damager would correct this issue, but would again make people cry foul because it's "always the same top damagers" because they have better connections, better armor, better common sense... whatever.
    Either way people are going to *****. So let's pick the way that has the least amount of people pancakes.
     
  37. Merlin

    Merlin The Enchanter
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    Nothing to see here. Current system for drops and looting rights is just fine as is.
     
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  38. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    i agree its sorta an exploit, but then again could be intended to let anyone participate whether they have skills and gear or not on every shard. Does that fit in with what i personally value in a game? no. does that mean its not intended? im not sure. the change from top damage system was to make the possibility for a reward available to everyone after all, and being able to get a drop naked with no skills makes perfect sense in that regard.

    what i am sure of, is that it does take a bit of skill to get looting rights on a noob character. alot moreso than running a multibox program and scripts. Now if someone were smart, and really wanted to exploit the system (which mesanna said isnt being policed anyway), wed see multibox noobs characters running 10-20 characters at once suicide into the boss using a control program. Who knows, maybe thatll happen in another 6 months or so.
     
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  39. Yadd of Legends

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    Well, if EM events aren't fun anymore (they aren't), don't do em (generally I don't)
     
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  40. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    I feel like you didn't read mist's break down which the uo publish stated to do. In order for your scenario to work properly you would need to have a total of 7 characters hitting a baracoon. Why? If all are attacking equally someone is guranteed not to get one. This would then show you that some would get the scrolls and some would not. Some of those people would only need to sit back and heal the sampire and some of those who would not get a scroll would be actively engaging it. 55.5% go towards top damage, 22.5% goes to tank and 22.5% goes to healing. 3 scrolls to damage, 2 (or 1) to tank and 2 (or 1) to heal. A sampire could end up getting 3 due to damage and tank, and three healers could get 1 each. I'm not going to keep arguing about this with you. I have stated facts, facts that UO is backing. It's up to you to understand them.
     
  41. TimberWolf

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    I have to agree with Flutter...besides...if the conversation is about pancakes...she is an expert!
    :)
     
  42. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    I understood Misk perfectly. Your scenario doesn't happen (3 players, with 1 getting 4 scrolls and 2 getting 1 each)... With a selection of players as a factor of the number of rewards, those who make the list would get equal distribution. The only time it is unequal is when the number of players in the top attack list is not divisable equally into the number of rewards. If you don't believe me, go test it... you don't have to take my word for it. All of the forumlas Misk posted were how to calculate damage in order to get onto the top attacker list... but if you get on the list your chance of a drop are the same regardless of where you are in the list...
     
  43. Olcher

    Olcher Crazed Zealot
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    Every event is already ran this way. There is no alternative system in place for EM events. This is not speculation, it's based on every event since the change over a year ago from top damage. Unfortunately, the same sort of system is used for any item that is dropped in backpack and the problems extend WAY far outside of EM events, and arguably, is a bigger problem outside of events. People are massively exploiting this and suiciding newbie characters in to bosses such as medusa, doom, slasher, ararat, blackthorn invasion monsters (guess this doesn't matter much), etc. to increase their chances at getting drops.
     
  44. Zuckuss

    Zuckuss Order | Chaos
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    Okay, fair enough.

    I wonder if they could rotate back and forth or do certain events with the high damage/healing system with limited drops and others with an inclusive drop system. The ability to simply run to your death to get a drop probably needs to be eliminated altogether if possible.

    Added: I am not sure that I would call this an 'exploit,' but I will seek clarification on that.
     
  45. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Why rotate them back and forth? The current system may not be perfect but it allows for more people being in the pool for a drop unless you were one of those old top damagers that doesn't get a drop all the time now. That IMHO is the only reason anybody would want the old system back. The new system is a lot more fairer than the old one and maybe the Devs will figure out a way to make in even better or just go to a everybody gets a drop but then you would make all the Event Items Sellers mad.
     
  46. Zuckuss

    Zuckuss Order | Chaos
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    I am just suggesting that they both could be used for different events. I see value and merit in both systems. Doing some events that are all inclusive in the drop would be great, but so would the the events where work and investment in time is rewarded, assuming that the shard residents of the particular event have the advantage for already having developed characters on their shard. I agree with your opinion that the current system seems to be making more people happy than the old system, and is fairer than what many perceived in the old to be being the same people getting all of the drops all of the time, but the idea of holding events in addition to this system which reward preparation, work and investment of time holds a lot of water in my opinion.
     
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  47. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    Why would it take a larger percentage to get on that list for top attacker opposed to healing/tanking???? Dude, seriously I give up...I do champ spawns daily and can tell you right now that you are incorrect on the scroll distribution of the RNG.
     
  48. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    I'm not wrong about the distribution... You are either on the list or not... There isn't 2 or 3 lists. Just one list! Many ways to get enough credit to get on the list, but it's just 1 list. If there are 2 people doing the champ there are ONLY two options... Both make the list and each get 3 scrolls or 1 makes the list and gets all 6 scrolls... It will happen like this EVERY time... It will NEVER end up where both make the list and 1 gets 4 scrolls while the other gets 2... Regardless of how they get on the list (damage taken, dealt, or healed).
     
  49. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    you know i liked the old system, mainly because i liked to work towards something. I would think the devs would want something in the game that promotes character progression and gear advancement. im not saying that has to be events, but the event top damage system was you have to admit a worthwile goal and a reason to make / update characters and progressive templates. theres currently no reason in the game to need to use the antique jewels and legendary artifacts to thier full potential for pvm. The new system promotes stagnant characters and minimalist effort. i dont think thats a healthy thing for any combat focused game.
     
    #49 Smoot, Aug 20, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
  50. TimberWolf

    TimberWolf Babbling Loonie
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    Ya know....remove Event drops and this and all these other problems disappear!
     
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