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Dear Mythic... About skill points.

Discussion in 'UHall' started by kelmo, Oct 4, 2009.

  1. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Keep them where they are. I see a lot of posts asking for more.

    Adding interesting options is very cool. Allowing players to use all options would not be cool.

    I understand the min/max rule of things... I have seen it ruin many games.

    Keep adding options, keep the points where they are. That is all.
     
  2. Kiwillian

    Kiwillian Guest

    How about giving everyone the 720 cap so new people don't have to wait 4 years?
     
  3. wanderer1origin

    wanderer1origin Lore Master
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    signs

     
  4. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    That's the only acceptable idea for raising the cap.
     
  5. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    I could live with that a lot more than raising the cap. 700 give or take 20 is good stuff. There are all of those items too.
     
  6. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    I expext this to be a hot topic. I stand by my statement. 700 give or take is where we need to be.
     
  7. Heartseeker

    Heartseeker Guest

    Agreed.:pint:
     
  8. Widow Maker

    Widow Maker Slightly Crazed
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  9. Quenchant

    Quenchant Seasoned Veteran
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    Well said Kelmo.

    :::: gets off soapbox from previous posts ::::

    Q
     
  10. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    I'd agree with that as well. It's not impossible to use skill point increase items to get 50 - 100 more skill points but you have to make some sacrifices to do it.

    Leave the skill caps where they are. Eliminate the +5/year Vet bonus if need be.
     
  11. Vhyle

    Vhyle Guest

    Agreed. Good post.
     
  12. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    I can go along with this as long as SoulStones are removed.

    Otherwise whats the point. You didn't remove the one character is everything. And with the removal of the reuse timer, it is only a matter of time to the removal of the use restrictions and you have the instantly reconfigurable character. :pint:
     
  13. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Actually, since a lot of skills pretty much require 120 now, raising the cap to 840 would put us back where we used to be, when 7x GM was viable instead of 6x legendary.


    But yeah, keep it the same.
     
  14. I agree. And the 720 skill cap isn't a must need to compete in Ultima (nor was the +5 AoS stat bonus - but I can see where implementing it could be more so justified). I believe it should remain as is, and players can accumulate 5 extra points a year until they reach year 4.
     
  15. Tazar

    Tazar Guest

    The reuse timer really did not change anything there. The instant reconfig has been going on for a while...

    [​IMG]

    Though I imagine the new craftable fragments will make it a lot more common.

    700 to 720 skill points are plenty to have at one time.
     
  16. maroite

    maroite Guest

    I think the 720 is fine, although sometimes I wish skills were weighted. I don't think I would complain much if they increased the cap though, it would change things, and templates would change but in the end it would all play out. People would meta game and find the best builds, and things would go back to norm.

    What I would like to see is some of the skills that are useless be given usefulness. Forensics, Item ID, Taste ID, Herding.

    Some are useful, but still its very niche. I wouldn't mind seeing a "secondary" skill set, where we could play around with these skills and not have them count toward the cap.

    I mean how many people (besides maybe roleplayers) include camping or herding on their templates?...
     
  17. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    Yes, please.
     
  18. Velvathos

    Velvathos Lore Keeper
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    There have been suggestions made where people didn't want any skill caps, where you can just max out all skills, making it one character per server..

    Some of the newer skill based games like Dawntide and Darkfall.. You can do that.
     
  19. Smokin

    Smokin Guest


    The thing about having to change your template if the skills were weighted and then people would just meta game then things be back to normal. Well why not just leave it because things are normal now.
     
  20. The Fallout

    The Fallout Guest

    They should just give everyone 720 instead of making people wait 4 years, that is all I ask.
     
  21. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Sure and give the people who wait 4 years 720 that be good. But I really want my 100 skill points they took away from us back.
     
  22. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    That would be the day I stopped playing UO. Everyone would have the exact same template, doing the exact same thing... boring.
     
  23. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    It's just a pity that there's not really a skill cap at all once you add in + skill items. I'd like to see a skill cap that actually was a cap, whether that's 720 (just fine with me) or higher so that hybrids can still cram templates out with or without skill items. Then some players can choose to train, others can use skill items and nobody can buy their way above anyone else. But I can't see EA changing that after all this time so I'm really just thinking aloud there lol.

    Wenchy
     
  24. Saunders

    Saunders Lore Keeper
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    Man speaks truth.
     
  25. Jhym

    Jhym Guest

    They've stated many times that 720 is pretty much it, they have no reason to give us a higher cap.

    I like the current caps, with the +5 per account year. This rewards those who stick around with a slightly better character.

    What I WANT them to do is make EVERY skill useful from 40 to 120 skill. There are some skills that honestly do nothing for you at all until near GM, others that are difficulty based but have few low level things to do that are worth the time.

    I was intrigued at the talk ... um... 6 years ago? I forget... about secondary skills and inter-related skills. They implemented this somewhat by "mini-skills" (books and special quests.) The inter-related skills are there, but somewhat a hodge-podge and usually added only when they think about something new and not in a long-term consistent strategy.

    Some examples of interrelation and secondary skills:

    Inscription affecting spell damage.

    example of more:
    Camping should affect carrying capacity and possibly a slight bump in gardening and cooking for each 20 points.

    Some secondary skills:

    basket weaving, stone mining, stone carpentry

    Some new ones:

    Special moves-- every weapon can have up to 5 special moves attached to it, the ones above the "standard" moves are earned and purchased. Perhaps specialized NPCs that only spawn in certain areas and for limited times. An example would be a named Master Fighter that spawns in the Jhelom pits at random intervals, who can teach you up to 3 special moves randomly selected from the list. The first move costs you 100K gold, the second 500K, the third 1M. (the three are tiers, so the "5th" tier that gives you the heftiest bang is worth the most.)

    Special moves for mages -- learned as above but assigned to mages that spawn in any magical area (including dungeons!) Things like chain-spell (link two spells that go off together for double the mana) or Legendary-force (allows caster to triple their mana for a spell to do double-damage).

    Some of the moves could be short-term availability, bought only for a week or two. Others could be long term.

    Just examples, but it would allow the devs a new way to add in new functions and abilities for us without having to fully code new skills. It would also allow them to add in functionality as tests and then have them be for a limited time.

    An example of a limited time special move might be "Berzerker Shield Ignore". Certain frightened orcs spawn with the ability to teach it, and they go away after the event clears. This would mitigate the requirement of making new items all the time for events (though the event items could be "better" at it than the special move.)

    Aaaaannyways, yes, there is no need for more skill points. I would, however, like a STRONG pass at making GM the central "best" point for all skills. 110, 115, and 120 should be better, but with tradeoffs and diminishing returns for ALL skills.
     
  26. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    I agree. The skill cap seems pretty good, even though all templates must sacrifice to complete a template. I do think there is alot that should be added to the skill system and I do feel even though the game has come so far there is still a long road.

    I would like to see two sets of skills because of the crowding, if you look at it from a one account view, I believe we are at seven characters, we really need a second set. For example: on a crafters main set you would have smith and in the secondary list arms lore. By doing this we don't have to create another character because you're able to put more skills without breaking the cap or unbalancing templates.

    Also, the need for soul stones, as far as a skill cap, there should be 720 points show real and the ability to build all the skills to 120 and just be able to pick and choose from the skill list what skills you wish your character to be using. Soul stones should be used for changing skills from one character to another.

    Also, skills should give bonuses, like smithing could be used by a fencer if it increased his swing speed and weapon use for accuracy, making it a powerful skill in any template.

    Skills could also be treed, meaning they become more affective when used with other skills, similar to stable slots. Of course, more skills will be added in the future that might bring more of a need for something like this.

    A side note: Skills like running, run faster, self healing, increase hit regeneration, marianer, boat moves faster, body building, can carry more and hit harder. There would be a cap on basic skills as well, would love to see them added into the game.
     
  27. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Well, if one assumes (in the not to distant future) that I can carry around an appropriate number of SoulStones and in the heat of battle (PvP or PvM) I can totally reconfigure my character, from an Archer to a Sampire to a Whammy (what ever those last two are but they do seem to be very powerful according to the posters) to a Necromancer, to a Mage etc., then really what is the issue with the skill limit, in that context. I can carry the items to support the changes as well and keep them insured. :pint:

    *Shrug* I suppose one could re-characterize the above and say the Soul Stones make us just a tad bit to close to the TC1 set command to make any Skill Cap relevant.

    Such that effectively if you remove skill caps then in essence you return us to the Tank Mage Era and assuming everyone gets the best of each item for any combination of skills, we all end up being balanced again, a thing that probably has not happened since the Tank Mage Era.

    The downgraded alternative is the 7XLegendary skill cap with no Skill Modifiers. But again an on the fly instant change Soul Stone really just defeats this entire thing.
     
  28. Tazar

    Tazar Guest

    I doubt very seriously if the "safe-log" requirement will ever go away. Aside from being in a safe place (Home or Inn), the combat timer must have expired as well. These safeguards should prevent swaps mid-combat.
     
  29. I AGREE! Kelmo for King! :party:
     
  30. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Ok, but for fun, what if these get dropped by the way side?

    I can imagine the argument will be along the line of, ok it takes 5 seconds to mark a temporary rune. It takes 5 seconds to recall home. It takes 1 minute to completely load up a new set of skills and equipment. It takes 5 seconds to recall back. Why am I being required to expend that 1 minute and 15 seconds?

    I do use the two Soul Stones allotted for my accounts but obviously not as a quick change artist, rather just a means to develope skills faster vs the GGS system.

    I suppose I am looking at why does everyone exclude the effect that Soul Stones have, when talking about Skill Caps. And yet is all to willing to throw in the Skill Mods on Items. It feels like a Sacred Cow is there and no one wants to talk about it.
     
  31. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    I was recently taken too school over the soulstone thing. You can not use them in the field. While it is somewhat related... It is not the topic at hand.

    I wish for something like the old days... When warriors were warriors, and crafters were needed, and respected. *sighs* Now with soul stones it is more of a solo game...

    damn... I just derailed my back on topic post...
     
  32. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    :)

    Just for fun, no one ever expects the Spanish Inquisition. Loosely, in this context, everyone believes a thing can not happen until of course it does happen.

    Darn so the Sacred Cow remains an unspeakable name :pint:c'est la vie.

    If I had my way, I would revert it back to the Tank Mage 7xGM Era (but I would not limit the revert to just that). But that isn't going to happen.

    So the issue gets down to 720 skill cap + Skill modification items vs 7xLegendary with out Skill Modification Items.

    I am comfortable with the way they are now. That roughly translates to the lesser of Evil's.

    So I run with my 705 base Skill + 65 Bonus Skill Points and seeing that in total, I barely have enough skill points to do the things I want to do (that are mostly the same things I did prior the creation of this Rube Goldberg of GGS+Items+Skill Caps). Mostly because when the created Legendary, they also rescaled the GM skills to do the exact thing thing only now you need the 120 (Legendary) skill level to do what you had been doing at skill 100 (GM)
     
  33. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    That was what broke Darkfall for me. I couldn't handle every character being able to do everything. It meant that in the end every character was the same, with everyone using whatever the current flavour of the month was. It was horrible.

    There was no point in trying to be a crafter, or a merchant, because there was no character specialization, and there was nothing you could do that everyone else couldn't do. Apparently the next expansion is adding skill specializations, but as you can see, I ran out of patience, and I am back here...
     
  34. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    Personally, I think the 700 skill cap is fine as long as those 700 points count. For instance, Magic Resistance -- whatever it's supposed to be doing -- doesn't do much of anything at all. Mysticism, while nice, lacks the utility of a full magic set (so do most of the new magic systems... but this is a whole different topic). Camping is pointless. And some skills give a minor bonus, making them desirable, but have no purpose outside of that -- read: arms lore, evaluate intelligence. If you're going to need skill points, they should have better than slight benefit to them.

    Let's take "tactics" for example... you absolutely need this for any weapons skill. But... why? What does tactics do for you? You don't do anything better with your weapons (okay, yes, hit more, clearly). But there's no other purpose to tactics. It's a "must have" skill that really is there for the hell of it.

    So I'm fine with a 700 cap... I would just like those 700 points to have cohesive meaning to them.


    As for Soulstones... I see nothing with them as they are. It's not like you're going to carry them with you and switch from magery to swordsmanship mid-battle, so what's the harm? It allows someone to choose a template to play for whatever time they're out playing. Yeah, it semi-defeats the idea of a unique template per character, but honestly, that doesn't impact my gameplay, and if they trained the skill up (which they had to one way or another), let 'em use it.


    As for giving the 720 cap earlier? No. That extra 20 points is about the only thing in the game that does say, on a physical aspect, I've been around playing the game longer, I have a slight advantage over you (and yeah, 20 points in the grand scheme is slight). 4 years isn't much to wait, and frankly, no one's hurt by the extra 20 points.

    Also, as I recall, that extra 20 points comes as 5 points per year, so it's not really a full-blown sudden "advantage" anyway.
     
  35. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    I agree with much of your post, but this piece in particular stood out, and maybe you're on to something here. Perhaps they could change "Camping" to "Naturalism," and give it the following:

    When camping (ie: campfire/bedroll):
    For every 20 points, it takes 5 seconds less to log out; at 100 skill, it takes you 25 seconds less to log out (which basically means your campfire becomes secure after 5, 10 seconds).

    When gardening:
    For every 20 points, you have an increased chance to cure/heal/fix your plants without the need of potions.
    Perhaps at GM, you automatically plant at 1 day earlier, and you get an extra day from planting in fertile dirt -- so there'd be a bonus there.

    When cooking:
    Sorry... haven't played a cook, so I'll let someone else fill this one in, but certainly there could be some advantages tied together.

    But this would be a GREAT example of, okay, the skill by itself does nothing, but it does add TANGIBLE benefit to another skill or skill set.

    The one thing I would like to see is utility throughout support skills that actually do something other than "simply support."
     
  36. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    At the risk of being off topic .....

    *Shrug*

    Takes 110 Taming to tame the highest mob in game as of now.

    It takes 110 Lore + 110 Taming to control the highest mob in Game now. *Shrug* neither has any real cause and effect on the Mob obeying you. But it is one heck of a good 220 Skill Point Sink that a Tamer must carry around always. Would it be appropriate to suggest it be 110 Lore to Control, such that one could Soul Stone off the Taming? :pint:
     
  37. Tazar

    Tazar Guest

    Good Points.

    I think the reason the soulstones are not really counted much is because you are still limited to 720 points at a time.

    Even before Soulstones, I used to confuse everyone because there were multiple Tazar's with identical appearances, and with vastly different skill-sets. Mage, Warrior, Crafts, Bard, etc. templates were swapped out constantly. Just like the soulstones, all I had to do was be in a safe place, wait out the combat timer, and switch.
     
  38. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Impossible proposition, IMHO.

    Soulstones are sold as tokens (Legacy tokens) for good money and many players have spent tons of cash on them.

    I do not think it could be possible to remove from the game anything which players have spent hard cash on and sometimes also a whole lot of it..........
     
  39. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I'm not a big fan of soulstones either, but you are right popps, they couldn't remove them from the game, not when they have made money selling them.
     
  40. maroite

    maroite Guest

    Do you even play UO? Magic Resistance doesn't do anything? My bush archer has 110, runs by the Slasher of Viels and gets frozen for maybe 2 seconds.

    I know on my 110 mage in PvP when casting on 120 resist characters I have little chance to even LAND a paralyze or curse.

    Magic resist is huge.

    I agree camping is pretty much useless.

    Eval Int is HUGE. You do realize with no eval int you're doing 30% spell damage. Eval Int boosts spells damage, and makes it harder for people to create god characters like warriors with full power magery. You don't need skill points in Eval Int. Eval Int is more a prevention against people power gaming. Perhaps it could use a buff, but its definitely not useless. Nor does it give "minor" bonuses. At 120 you get like 150% spell damage, and seeing as SDI wasn't common before imbuing, thats pretty big.

    Arms Lore is amazing for anyone who wants to craft anything worth anything to someone else.

    Once again tactics is there so that people don't make super warrior mages. It boosts melee damage, and uses up 100-120 skill points to make it harder for people to take say swords, bush, parry, chiv, magery, necromancy. Spirit Speak is the same. Without it necro is weak, because people shouldn't be able to choose a bunch of main skills and be powerful with them.

    Complimentary skills, such as eval int, tactics, and spirit speak are there to prevent super builds.
     
  41. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    *Shrug*

    I agree and IF we are talking about Soul Stones (Kelmo?) that is why I see them just being made to be more flexible in their use (when and were).

    And if that becomes the case, in my opinion this is all just a bunch of moot points.
     
  42. Infiniti

    Infiniti Guest



    Agrees :thumbup:
     
  43. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    I'm not really following what you mean, especially in context to what you quoted of my post.

    I'm not trying to imply that you should be able to soulstone off a skill and still gain the benefit of that skill, nor that Taming wouldn't be the primary skill.

    What I'm really saying is that -- taking your example for instance -- Animal Lore, while supplementing Taming, should also have some other use. Now, in the case of Animal Lore, yes, you do get to get information on mobs in game (of course, until you reach GM, you can't use it on anything other than tamed pets, which is a bit odd, but I digress). So in this case, perhaps that side benefit is already there (though I'd stack the "can't use it on anything but tamed creatures" part differently and allow you to scale the Lore that you use across different "levels" of animals so that it would, indeed, be useful throughout the entirety of the Lore leveling).
     
  44. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    No, of course I don't. I love to troll the boards of games I don't play. Have you tried WoW? That's the best game out there!!! </sarcasm>
    Uh, okay, so why is it that Magic Resist rarely resists most spells (ie: Poison, Paralyze, et cetera). Mind you, I'm not saying "never," but it is not comparative to either (1) the amount of time put into raising resist, nor (2) the effect one would expect from 120 resist.
    Maybe that's your experience... I can attest to having a different experience altogether.
    Right... at least we agree on that.
    Okay, my point on Eval Int was that it provides absolutely nothing outside of an ability to raise damage in magery. And you actually illustrate part of what I see as a core fault with the skills system. Magery, without Eval Int, only does 30% of base damage... Why should magery not be 100% effective by itself? I mean, to say that something is a required skill in order to get base damage, that's a bit odd.

    Actually, you DO, by definition of the damage magery does, require Eval Int to at least some sort of level. Now, I totally understand that it helps to prevent a mage/swordsman, but on the other hand, what other purpose does eval int have? I mean, I don't know about you, but aside from knowing something possesses greater than 100 Int, it's not really useful, and by the time you use it in PvP, well, if you're stopping long enough to actively eval my int, I'm going to be doing something else in the meantime.

    Which again seems very odd, and is pairing up skills for no real reason. I mean, honestly, while arms lore can tell you something about a weapon, why would using it in tandem with crafting indicate a better weapon construction chance? I know the response will be along the lines of "Well, if you know about arms, you can make better arms..." but my response is, wouldn't a Legendary Blacksmith already have enough skill in order to do that?

    This is my point... skills just for the sake of filling up skills is silly. If you're going to pair them, they should have meaning beyond "Well, in order for skill A to really work, you need skill B." I'm not against skill A getting a bonus from skill B, but if skill A is totally reliant on skill B, and skill B does nothing other than supplement skill A, why aren't skills A and B the same skill?

    Which is actually a silly use of skill points if you ask me. It would actually make more sense to remove the secondary skills and make the primary skills completely effective, but then come up with some other method of cross-skill deterent if that's going to be the only reason to have secondary skills in the first place.

    And keep in mind, skills like Eval Int were not initially useful for anything with regard to a secondary skill. Eval Int hasn't always adjusted magery. They did make it that way on down the line, but that was a later design decision -- perhaps to combat the "super build" of a sword/mage, but again, I wonder where it went from "mage gets a bonus" from Eval Int to "mage requires Eval Int to even hit base damage."
     
  45. WarderDragon

    WarderDragon Babbling Loonie
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    I agree.

    I don't think the cap should be raised, but there are alot of skills out there right now that require 120 points, and provide you at most one or two major abilities. Alot of skills, in my mind, should have thier own "spellbook" with a variety of abilities that are unlocked as they go higher and higher in level.
     
  46. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    Just one thought on that - since the cap increase was given as a 'thank you' for staying with UO, were it to become available to all player it would be nice of some token 'replacment' was made, maybe as simple as an extra vet reward pick for those already on the 720 cap, or an item that's purely deco and 'commemorative' - absolutely not something that changes or gives advantage to your playing the game (in theory you have that already from four years plus experience).

    But going back to the original point - 700-720 seems a perfectly good cap, no need to make any huge changes to it at all, even though items rip a few holes in the 'cap' anyways....
     
  47. Olahorand

    Olahorand Slightly Crazed
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    I would see no problem with all the skill improving items (at least not in the next years) to increase the cap for veterans older than 4 years not by 5, but by 1 each year (or each 2 or 3 years).
    *Salute*
    Olahorand
     
  48. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

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    Actually magery is quite useful, even offensively, without eval int. It just means that fewer of the spells are useful. But mind blast, and all the summons, are still useful without eval int. The current system gives benefits to those who specialize. It's a good system, they'd be stupid to change it.

    Could magic resist be more useful? Maybe, but it is still extremely useful.
     
  49. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    The point was you felt that tactics was a must have but had almost no practical value unless fighting, in short I believe your saying it is dead weight that you must carry.

    In the same way, Taming OR Lore (not really Taming is but just for the sake of argument) is the same dead weight but in reverse. I need the skill to Tame a mob, but were does it follow that I must also require the skill to control the mob.

    And if it looks like a Tamer vs others it isn't it is about the carrying of skills that are mostly if not totally useless.

    In the Bad Old Days of the Original Publish of UO Skills were not even remotely as interdependent as they are now and yet the skill cap was 700.

    Twelve years later and now the concept is NOT really a Sandbox of Free for all choose any skill combination (yeah you can do it but is the character viable), but rather a List of Templates that are chosen from.

    The Templates are reinforced by the interdependence of the skills.

    Thus it becomes a valid question to ask, is 720 (sans Skill Plus's) really enough to be effective in the current UO.

    I don't think there are to many people that will say yes to that question.

    I suspect there will be, from one perspective, 2 camps, those that live with the 720 Skill Cap AND the Skill Plus's from items and those that live with the 720 Skill Cap AND Soul Stones.

    Well obviously we all do both :pint:

    So might it not be simpler in the end to just make the skill cap a hard 7x120?

    I have a Bard/Stealthy/Thief that I customize with Jewelry to be a Disco'r, Peacer or Provoker.

    *Shrug* I just do not see how that character and what I do is reflective of a 720 Skill Cap in a manner that I would view as being anything other than me working around the system(i.e. the 720 skillcap) to achieve a goal.
     
  50. Coldren

    Coldren Sage
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    I sorta wish they'd redo the whole skill system all together and break it apart into different classifications or tiers, based on what the skills are actually used for now rather than what they were originally designed to be.

    First tier is stuff like magery, craft skills, combat skills, etc, who's use hasn't changed since the original design would keep.

    The second would be for skills like Eval Int and Anatomy, which don't have much of a use in and of themselves anymore and are largely supplementary.

    The gray area would be for skills like Lumberjacking, Spirit Speak, and Inscription, which do have valid primary uses, but are also supplementary to other skills.

    /shrug

    Other than that, yes, I agree that 720 is just fine for skills as they stand, especially with Soul Stones.