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Dev Question About Faction Points For Thieves

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Kyrie_Elaison, Oct 22, 2008.

  1. Will the faction points for stealing sigils be a permanent addition?

    I hope so. Thieves risk a lot trying to get sigils from active factions.
     
  2. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    We are discussing this on the faction forum as well. I believe thieves should be recognized.
     
  3. Definitely! I've spent the last week trying to get a sigil on Pacific. CoM has really got their heels dug in right now, and I haven't seen anyone from my faction around. My thief has spent hours taking out CoM guards only to have a group of players show up at the last minute to chase me off and add a bunch more guards.

    Fortunately for me, the CoM faction players aren't too bright. I love stealth! :gee:
     
  4. Traveller

    Traveller Guest

    Still, I think that asking for just 80 stealing to steal a faction sigil is far far too low, especially considering that with items you can get to 80 investing about 10/20 real skillpoints.

    I don't think that anybody lower than GM steal and GM snooping (maybe 80/80 of real skill, with chance to fail until both are GM) should be allowed to steal sigils, otherwise it would be pretty easy to create a template that can steal sigils and not be at a disadvantage in combat. If you manage to make a thug thief or a mage thief or a necro thief that is viable in combat, more power to you, but getting points for "stealing" with very few skillpoints invested is something that should SERIOUSLY being looked into.
     
  5. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Thievery won't even be rewarded for that purpose. If you don't have enough people to raid and have to resort to stealth stealing, than you won't be able to corrupt them anyway. The only time a thief is going to be rewarded is when there is no danger and they just take the sigil after a successful raid or there is no one defending.

    Thieves don't deserve kill points as a reward.
     
  6. And what does the Snooping skill have to do with Stealing a Sig... Hiding/Stealth I could possibly see, but Snoop, gawd you can see it for heavens sake.
     
  7. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    So what are you saying about the faction thieves? They deserve nothing? Before I go on, let me preface this with the fact I play Siege. A faction thief is an account choice, barring having a hand full of soul stones, that account is dedicated to one character.

    What role do thieves play in your faction game? I am curious as to why you seem to be so dismissive of the importance of thieves.

    In my experience, at times it can be dull. Sometimes it can be very exciting and tricky getting in and out of a hot zone with the sigil.

    Is it just the term "kill points" you have exception with? Please explain.
     
  8. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Silver is nothing? I don't think so anymore.

    Every time we had people bring in secondary characters to steal the sigils. Siege is a different story, but there is no reason to worry about thieving anymore with the 1 character per account restriction lifted.
     
  9. Nexus

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    I didn't read in the publish notes that they were adding more character slots to Siege....
     
  10. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Silver huh? That is the extent of recognition you would bestow on sucessful faction thieves? *shakes head* I am glad I am not on your team.
     
  11. Nexus

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    Well you know there's always that one kid that gets left on the bench til there's no other option.......
     
  12. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    That kid is generally me. *nods* But when I pull off a winning move, even I (that bench kid) should get some recognition. Silver I can buy.
     
  13. Nexus

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    I agree with you, I was commenting on the "I'm glad I'm not on your team" bit....
     
  14. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Why should a faction thief get rewarded 10x more than any other player? You guys are acting like thieves make or break a fight. When, in fact, they have nothing to do with the fight. They just move sigils around. This is like saying the guys who mow the lawn on a football/baseball field are the real heroes. They're not.
     
  15. Willow30

    Willow30 Guest

    You wouldn't have a fight without the thieves moving the sigils for you.
     
  16. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    That is all I wanted to here you say. You consider thieves a necessary nuisance. The warriors are the "football" heroes and should get all the glory. *tips hat* You have a skewed vision of team work, in my opinion.
     
  17. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Yes we would because many faction fighters have/had secondary thieving accounts. So when the fight was over, someone would change characters and come in to get the sigils. A full-time thief was not needed.

    Say what you want Kelmo. I don't think they give out a Superbowl Ring to Joe the Lawn Mower.
     
  18. Nexus

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    Sigil Thieves are the only way for Factions to control towns, Which I might remind you is one of the core fundamentals Factions is built around. Add to that Most Thief builds are weak on the side of Combat and Defense, in the time 1 thief can move one sigil and return it Combat oriented Faction members can still rack up more than 10 kill points. They aren't saying...Steal it get 10 Kill points...it's Steal it corrupt it return it for town control get 10 points.....
     
  19. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    You could have compared us to at least the field goal kicker... I am just saying.:sad4:
     
  20. Without the thieves there would be no capturing of cities. sheeesh

    Do these points affect your fighting? Why do you care what thieves get?

    So you're the hero just because you run around fighting? Thieves play an important role in factions, and without them there would be no factions.

    Thieves deserve some sort of retribution for their work.

    :spider:
     
  21. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    And how exactly does the thief contribute to the defense? They don't. By the way, I actually had 80 stealing on my mage. I didn't consider myself a thief. I just put it on there to get sigils. It is a method to get sigils off posts. Nothing more. It wouldn't have made too much sense to use forensic evaluation or item identification.
    Yes, they do have a direct effect now. Thieves can rack up points like nothing and transfer them all to whoever they want to have the new artifacts. No need to actually work for it, just steal some sigils when there is no one looking or try and sneak it in during a server down time.
     
  22. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    In an attempt to make a character that would be able to do slightly more than "just stealing sigils" at a time when you could only have one faction character per account per shard, these are the real skills I generally have on my faction thieves:

    100 Remove Trap
    100 Detect Hidden
    100 Tracking
    100 Magery
    100 Hiding
    80-90 Stealthing
    80 Stealing
    50 Lockpicking

    Tell me, please, just where would I fit in GM snooping and GM stealing and still have a character that would be useful IN FACTIONS?

    Snooping's not terribly useful in factions on a non-Siege shard unless you enjoy running around stealing bandages and potions. However, being able to remove traps and find and detect stealthers and help out with rezzing and fielding is very helpful. Being able to remove traps requires training up not only the Remove Trap skill but also Lockpicking and Detect Hidden. You can't use jewelry to bump up any of those skills, nor can you use jewelry to bump up Tracking or Hiding.

    I'm sorry you don't think 80 stealing is sufficient. I happen to think it's fine and allows people to make thieves that can do more than just steal sigils.
     
  23. Nexus

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    yup yup with out thieves capturing the sigils what's the point of faction fighting? All you'd get is silver...Seriously you could do just as well not being in factions...Oh wait you don't have to worry about taking a count for ganking Blues if they are in an opposing faction......
     
  24. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Plus, insurance costs are a lot lower....
     
  25. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Arise my Sisters and Brothers! Be heard! Throw off the shackles of the "star quarterback".

    JC most of the faction thieves I know are just that. No snooping. They are dedicated to their task. It is just not 80 points. Some take a lot of pride in what they bring to the game.

    It kinda saddens me that you are so dismissive of a play style that some of us work pretty hard at.
     
  26. Nexus

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    Bwahahaha I'm still in favor of pushing for removal of insurance in fel..

    Ooo that's an Idea they can do an event where there's an Economic recession and the Britannian Insurance commission that covers all your goodies collapses...
     
  27. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    If you were a true faction player you would realize that getting 80 kill points for one minute of mostly non-dangerous work is ridiculous. Some players work really hard to dig themselves out of the negative kill point hole and are ecstatic about having 1-2 points in their showscore. Now some stupid thieves who contribute next to nothing are going to be able to rack up dozens of points effortlessly.
     
  28. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    They risk a lot? Really? What exactly do they risk? An actual pvper risks a lot more, since they are the ones who actually stick around and fight.

    I don't like the thief points if they corruption time is only 2 hours. It's absolutely ridiculous to give a thief points for sneaking a 2 hour guard at 7 am after server up or 4 am before server down.

    If you are going to ask for an addition to be permanent go right ahead but please don't make it sound like thieves risk more than pvpers because it is absolutely untrue.

    They may risk more than.... tinkerers or crafters... so you got me there I guess..
     
  29. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    Yeah, what he said. Maybe 1 or 2 points per sigil would be just fine. Anything more than 1 or 2 points is absolutely ridiculous.
     
  30. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Maybe it would help if we could get more details on how many bonus points will be awarded for actually killing enemy faction characters in warzones. Maybe those bonuses will make the 10 kill points for sigil capture look like peanuts.

    It would also be nice to know how long it's going to take for sigils to be purified. I really doubt it's going to be 3 days but just what will it be once this hits the production shards?
     
  31. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    What is it exactly that you risk?
     
  32. Tina Small

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    I think we need to get clarification on whether it is possible for SL- and Minax-friendly invasion forces to be in a town when the town sigil is ripe for stealing. If yes, I think that perhaps puts a slightly different spin on things for TB and COM thieves who want to steal the sigil from the town post, as they will be revealed when they do the stealing.

    I wonder if the kleptomaniac NPCs can steal sigils from a player's backpack....
     
  33. Willow30

    Willow30 Guest


    I have put just as much time into my thief as you have in your warrior. I have went in with my thief during raids to get the sigils and I have stayed in the base to reveal stealthers trying to sneak in after we have got them. To say we contribute nothing is BS. :yell:
     
  34. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    The theif's risk completely depends on circumstances. I had had to wait/work for 2 hours in an opposing faction base, waiting for my opportunity to get the sig and get out ... raids are NOT the only time the thieves are in play.

    Also, Cardell ... Draconi has said the 2 hr timer is ONLY for the TC.
     
  35. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    You tell 'em! I still have not heard what the fighters risk over thieves...
     
  36. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Detect Hidden =/= Thief

    And were you on the front lines while everyone was raiding? No, you went in after the fight was over to get the sigils.
     
  37. Willow30

    Willow30 Guest

    Bull I went while the fight was happening. Distraction is a thiefs best friend.
     
  38. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Man... You must play a different game. I have seen Willow sneak in while spells are a blazin'.

    Still what do you risk vs what a faction thief risks?
     
  39. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Twenty minute stat loss? Two hours of guarding time? Potions, bandages and other supplies? There is considerably more than a chump thief waltzing in for a minute to grab gems off poles and handing them to the rest of the faction to transport back to the base.

    Also you can get by with just 30 Stealing skill and boosting with items, which I bet is what some of you some called "thieves" are doing.
     
  40. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Thieves suffer the same stat lose. We lose our potions, regs, bandages, and even our armor and jewels. We defend and are prepared to retake the sigils when the defense fails.

    Did you just call me a chump thief? I never waltz... I sneak and skulk!
     
  41. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    My thief gets stat loss ... alot ... so much that she carries buffers to be able to steal WHILE in stat loss. I carry pots - she has alchemy, so ya. Sounds to me like the thieves YOU know are chumps ... some of us bust our asses while people like you can't be bothered to help us with distractions. Seems to me that YOU are the chump. I am not saying that I think 10 pts per sig is perfect, but thieves do not just stand around.
     
  42. Nexus

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    Last I heard you could have a Mage Weapon -25 bow toss on a Crystalline Ring, and a chump mage bracelet and benefit as if you had an extra 120 skill points in Archery...and I know that's what a lot of those so called PvPer's are doing.....

    Just one more reason why I think all insurance needs to be removed from Fel, so you can't rely on items to make up for skill.
     
  43. Traveller

    Traveller Guest

    Tina, you raise some good points, but I think you have missed the important one. Let me answer to the things in order. First you say "In an attempt to make a character that would be able to do slightly more than 'just stealing sigils'". Good, I do agree. But that's your choice, to make a real faction thief. Other people could take a full-fledged mage or warrior, sacrifice 20 points of med/focus to stealing, equip shadow dancer legs, burglar's bandana and two +15 stealing rings, steal sigil, and then reequip their usual combat gear. Also, even if using items were not possible I am pretty sure that you can remove 80 skill points froma char and still make a fully effective combat character. This is BS, do you agree? I am not adamant that the additional GM skill should be snooping, could be remove trap as far as i am concerned. It just has not to be a skill usable for combat. So, for instance, stealth is NOT to be such a skill.

    As a second point, let me anwer to your question:

    Easy: remove tracking. If you are human you still get the 20 tracking required to track everything and the full boost of detect. There, you have the space for GM snooping. Equip the shadow dancer leggings and you got your GM stealing as well.

    So, you think it is fine for people to build full warriors/mages/necros/whatever that can also steal sigils? If that is the point I am afraid that JC is right and characters who do collect sigils (I cannot name them thieves because they do the same as doom janitors) do NOT deserve kill points, at all.

    If instead your aim is to give a role to faction thieves, you should agree with me that more than many more than 80 stealing is required. Sure, do not make them necessarily snooping. Remove trap is fine, or lockpicking. I am less convinced about detect or tracking because in combat they are useful against stealthers. Hid or stealth I am fully against, since they are laready useful in combat.
     
  44. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Whatever you say, Traveller. If you think my skill decisions suck, I really don't give a damn. I put a lot of thought into them and they give me useful characters.

    And, by the way, my thieves are elves so they have less chance to be revealed. I'm not so stupid as to make them human. Even if they were human, I would never run them with the JoAT tracking. Sorry, it just wouldn't be reliable enough to be worth my time.

    So just keep whining about it and maybe the devs will change it just for you and everyone else. Go ahead....whine more. Can't wait to see something else in this game get hit with a nerf.
     
  45. Traveller

    Traveller Guest

    Sorry tina, but I rarely saw a more useless message. I asked you questions, you didn't answer. I made an effort to find a common ground between your needs and mine, making a good job (I think), and you say I am whining without even saying what's wrong in my reasoning.

    Honestly seeing your message I can only think two possibilities: 1) you didn't bother reading; 2) Despite your good words about "factions thieves" you are one of those abusing the system with one of those warrior/mages-with-stealing.

    Doesn't matter. /ignore.
     
  46. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Quite the condescending reply there Traveller. I am quite immersed in this dialog, so I will leave that for others to decide.

    Again, why do you consider that only warriors are worthy of any recognition? It seems that Mythic is on the right track in realizing that factions is about the team.

    What is it a "warrior" risks that a faction thief does not? We do our thing, we fight, we die and lose pixels just as you do. I have yet to have that simple question answered in a concrete fashion.

    I am beginning to suspect that some "warriors" are reticent to share any of the "glory". If that is the case... You would not make it on any faction team I have ever been a part of. *nods*
     
  47. Traveller

    Traveller Guest

    You mean tina's reply wasn't condescending? :)

    This part of your post makes me think that I have not been clear about my point. I do NOT think that warriors should take all the recognition. Quite the opposite. Actually my main has been a thief all my fel life, so I am all for breathing life into faction thieves, and I am reopening my account after more than a year just because they decided to reward thieves in faction.

    What I am against is the possibility to have a faction WARRIOR raking up the recognitions due to a faction thief with the grand investment of 20 skill points (60, on siege). THIS is what I am against. I want MORE power to thieves, not less.

    Currently the difference between getting 10 kill points more or less is 20 skill point (60 on siege). Honestly, I don't think that deserves a reward. On the other hand, if that difference were 200 skill points not usable for combat that would fully justify the rewards. I initially suggested, a bit blindly, snooping. After reading the first message from tina, where she made a good point about the useful skills for FACTION thieves, I suggested remove trap, or lockpicking (in essence skills usable by faction thieves but not exploitable for combat). Apparently nobody bothered to read that part. Certainly nobody told me what's wrong with that suggestion.
     
  48. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    *nods* Fair enough. Most players will min/max to use the best combination of skills/items to achieve the goal. That holds true for the warriors as well as the thieves.

    There are different temlplates for warriors. Mages of all sorts... Dexers and Archers, what have you.

    The same holds true for faction thieves. Some are dedicated to sigils, traps, detection and even removal. Some are a bit more... militant and stand toe to toe with the warriors in defense.

    Are you suggesting one template be rewarded and not the other?

    There is a wide variety of ways to get the job done. *listens*
     
  49. Traveller

    Traveller Guest

    Not at all. My point is simply that a warrior that dedicates 20 skill points to stealing sigils does not deserve the additional 10 kill points. It is actually not even a _different_ template. If he were sacrificing 200 skill points for stealing sigils I don't mind what he does with the others. He uses them to improve detection/stealth/removing trap? Good. He uses them to stand along his faction mates? Good.

    The problem is that currently the difference between a faction thief, and ANY other faction character, whatever he does, is 20 skill points (60 on siege). Do you really think that is fair?

    EDIT: let's make a comparison: a doom "thief" requires an investment of 40 skill points (80 on siege) to be able to pick up stuff from the floor. 60 points (100 on siege) plus some mils for a +20 scroll for optimal results. Do you really think that sigil stealing is worth LESS (or even equal) than doom "stealing"?
     
  50. The_Dude_

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    You can give thieves whatever boost you want as long as you make it so they cant steal with +skill items. I can rearrange my faction archer lower my focus to 80 and be just a damn thief after the fights over. Its a god damn joke. You want to make thieves get 10 pnts then thats fine. If they die trying there should no way in hell they can just toss some god damn skill jewels and pants on and keep trying ot steal the sigils. Thats a god damn joke.

    So keep your 10 pnts for sigil i dont care. Make it so they cant steal the sigil with +skills items on and we can see how these so called strategy moves play out. Takes alot of skill to die run behind enemy self res put on jewels and steal the sigil. WOot look at me IM a uber thief.