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Dev question: Is it an intentional design decision that Chivalry be mandatory...

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Subliminator, Nov 19, 2011.

  1. Subliminator

    Subliminator Visitor

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    ...for all weapon-using templates? Got down to Shame level 5 today and my weapon with 100 chaos damage was hitting for nothing half the time. Just wonder what other design intention there is behind giving things 100 in particular resists besides "IF YOU DON'T HAVE CONSECRATE WEAPON THEN GTFO".
     
  2. Fridgster

    Fridgster Lore Master
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    Ummmm check the resists on those critters buddy. You'll notice that they are all in the high 60-70's. Now being a warrior you could use armor ignore wich by-passes their resists. While chivalry is an added bonus to damage, it is certainly not needed. Also as far as Consecrate weapon you can supplement that with 100% damage weapons. There are alternatives to chivalry.
     
  3. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    id say about 90% of the time im using bushido on my warriors instead of chiv.

    AI does not need CW, and EOO is capped by use of a slayer weapon.

    maybe you can start a thread asking the devs why bushido is mandatory?
     
  4. pgib

    pgib Guest

    The way of the warrior is dead, you have to be a mage of some kind to be an effective "warrior" in pvm. Well, maybe with some multi-mullionaire equipment you could actually be of some use even with just warrior skills but i'm not sure.
     
  5. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    This has been asserted before; it's no more true no matter how loudly it's stated.

    Chivalry is not necessary for warrior templates.

    It's helpful, but in terms of raw damage, Bushido by itself dwarfs Chivalry by itself.

    Especially now that higher levels of Chivalry are necessary for optimum effectiveness.

    There is an important catch though: The Bushido damage is not assured, it's potential.

    The Chivalry damage, while not as great, is assured.

    I actually prefer Chivalry, though I do have a character with only Bushido and he does quite well. Mostly I just have to remind myself to be patient and wait for the nearly-inevitable successive 3 critical hits.

    Haven't tried him in Shame yet.

    And of course the biggest damage of all comes from Chiv and Bush in combination.

    -Galen's player
     
  6. Elric_Soban

    Elric_Soban Babbling Loonie
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    lol

    you DO understand what chaos damage does, right?

    maybe try a non 100% chaos weapon? if you roll poison vs a poison elemental, you wont hurt it.. and so on. dont need consecrate weapon, just figure out what it's lowest resist is, and bring a weapon for it. no consecrate needed.
     
  7. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    i noticed this last night too.

    i couldnt figure it out.

    i was there with a guild mate.
    we are both macers, hes a sampire, im just a plain bushy/chiv

    he was blasting away hitting the mob on every hit, i was sitting there swinging and doing no damage.

    i hit enemy of one, nothing.
    i hit con weapon, i start to damage.
    it wears off.... nothing.
    i switch to a slayer, nothing, normal weapon starts hitting again.

    it was strange stuff.

    i was a little disheartened.
    120 macer with a pimped out suit and i couldnt even hit it with a weapon standing right beside it.
     
  8. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    This will change when they add Super slayer properties to talismans, If they ever do.

    you use slayer wep + talisman and enemy of one/honor does nothing as of damage inc, (luck from Honor, still applies)
     
  9. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    strange stuff is an understatement :p
     
  10. Subliminator

    Subliminator Visitor

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  11. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Funny pictures regardless, and funny pictures are not an argument, the in-game reality is this.

    Unless the RNG hates you and literally never gives your Samurai a critical hit, Samurai damage is better.

    The catch is that if you have an unlucky streak....Well, then you're unlucky. Fortunately the defensive capabilities of Bushido can help you to survive the fight until conclusion. (Especially if you have a Leafblade or Daisho; the feint special move does nothing without Bushido and the 20 from JOAT is not enough.)

    Hence why I prefer the surety of Chivalry, but I so-prefer in full knowledge that I'll have lower damage overall.

    Elemental damage really isn't necessary unless you're fighting one of the very few creatures with a very high resistance in one of the elemental damages, and the slayer you happen to carry happens to target that resist and only that resist. Others, however, do prefer to carry around various elemental slayer weapons, and don't seem to have the issue with it that you have long-had.

    Your funny picture also contains a few ridiculous statements of which I'll address a couple.

    Firstly, most Paladins I know use EOO and a slayer weapon...The implication that you don't need a slayer with EOO is a tad....Odd. Also remember that EOO makes other things do more damage to you; Perfection doesn't, and nor does carrying a slayer.

    Also....A Paladin not needing mana leach? Do you seriously think that? Haven't played one in awhile have you...If a monster lacks one resist that's terribly lower than the other resists, armor ignore (and by extension critical hits, which is basically an armor ignore that costs less mana at the price of being far from certain) is still necessary.

    We've had these debates multiple times now....Why you seem stuck on this point, I can't imagine.

    The issue is, and always has been, one of the surety of Chivalry versus the unsure potential of Bushido.

    Others in this thread have said similar things.....If pure Bushido isn't how you want to play, then it's not how you want to play, and there you have it.

    But others' experiences show that is is indeed viable.

    *shrugs*

    -Galen's player
     
  12. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    I have a Paladin swordsman and a Paladin Fencer and a Samurai Archer. The archer does far more damage-over-time than do either of the Paladins.

    I agree that possibly an archer isn't the BEST comparison though. I don't have any melee characters with Bushido.
     
  13. Klapauc

    Klapauc Sage
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    Most things in shame are vulnerable to elemental slayer.Get one and do as many armor ignores as possible. Either with perfection or eoo you will do good damage.
    In level 4+5 you face things with high resists. Chaos damage is probably the worst way to go.
     
  14. Subliminator

    Subliminator Visitor

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    I'm tired of listening to you bleat irrelevantly about Bushido everytime Chivalry comes up. Bottom line, the game features a complex system of elemental damages and resistances that runs through every aspect of the game, from the properties of different crafting materials, to selecting which weapons to use, to someone looking at every monster in the game and deciding whether it should thematically be more vulnerable to fire/cold/whatever, to special item abilities like chaos damage and the like.

    And this entire system can be utterly negated, crumpled up and used as toilet paper, forgotten about, with a spell that takes 15 skill and 10 mana to cast.

    Sounds balanced to me! After all, you can be just as effective without it, if you forgo other upgrades in order to buy a million different weapons of course!

    (PS, Lightning Strike costs an average of 30 mana per critical hit, assuming 120 Bushido and max LMC. Armor Ignore costs 30 with NO LMC and 18 with max. Lightning Strike is a niche move for people who lack HCI but like wasting mana, and that's about it anymore.)
     
  15. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Bushido is the most-obvious alternative to Chivalry. Hence if one can get by with it, and without Chivalry, as experience has taught me is possible, it pretty much kills the argument of your original post, which is explicitly indicated by the use of the term "mandatory."

    Again, critical hits is direct damage, thus negating resistances.

    Again, others in this thread have made this point also, that Chivalry is not mandatory.

    Your arguments, as always, depend upon a combination of assuming a very bad run at the RNG, on fighting things with a particular resist that's particularly weak (hence Consecrate Weapon mattering), the use of funny pictures, and on shouting really loud.

    You neglect that critical hits in reality often land way more often than the math suggests, neglect the combination with Perfection, neglect mana leach, etc.

    Now granted, as I've always stated when you assert this, Chivalry offers certainty whereas Bushido offers potential and I prefer the certainty. That is the real difference. On my Samurai, I miss Consecrate Weapon, miss Close Wounds.

    But I get Feint, and Evasion, and Confidence, and Critical Hits.

    Don't use Chaos Damage, which by definition makes you as-likely to hit a target's high resist as its low resist. Use Perfection where possible. Use Mana Leach. (Which Paladins to anyway.)

    And you should do fine.

    I'd actually love to take my Samurai down to Shame, but his elemental slayer weapon somehow ended up with 65 durability. At the time it didn't seem to matter....Now, of course, it very much does.

    -Galen's player
     
  16. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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    Pick up a weap with high HLA and see how that works out. I think some of the golems and earth type eles may have a passive HLA mod themselves.
     
  17. Plague

    Plague Guest

    It seems strange to me that this upsets you op because i find most of my fun being a warrior in crafting a weapon for everything i fight,...ive got hundreds of weapons from double axes to longswords all with different damage types and slayers...i even dye them and name them with the engraving tool i think maybe your just looking at it all in the wrong way.
     
  18. Subliminator

    Subliminator Visitor

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    Bushido without Chivalry is, even according to my smartarse little chart, just about the same (which is to say mediocre) as Chivalry without Bushido. The issue is that the Chivalry option requires vastly less effort/knowledge/gear with one spell in particular, Consecrate, mooting an entire huge aspect of the combat system.

    Once something becomes easy enough in comparison to alternatives it is effectively mandatory. Yes even if TECHNICALLY some masochist really CAN stubbornly just walk around regarding every 100% physical weapon as garbage, buying four different elemental slayers, etcetera, instead of just casting a 10 mana spell.

    Critical hits are just a double-cost RNG-dependant Armor Ignore anymore, your unsubstantiated claims that the published stats are wrong notwithstanding. 30 mana versus 18 mana isn't even close. Lightning Strike would need to crit every third hit just to break even at it's current cost and that's just not happening.

    It would need to crit at a ludicrous 40% rate to really be important (Twice the stated ratio!) and even THAT insanity would merely be equivalent to an Armor Ignore with a base cost of 25 mana instead of 30. Whoop-dee-doo.

    Hey chuckles, if some new ubermonster has high but fairly balanced resists of 80/70/75/80/80 that's a potential +33% damage for using Consecrate not subject to any sort of cap. If only everything were THAT balanced. I've run the numbers and for certain Shame mobs the damage bonus goes up to 40% or more compared to some slob who just bought any old physical damage runic and went to work.

    I'm not even going to acknowledge your off-topic whining about Perfection anymore except to state that I'd LOVE to see a guild group of three paladins have to argue over which one of them gets to use Enemy of One on whatever they're fighting, or all get boned out of it because the mob spawned next to some guy's EV or something.

    You wanna know why everyone tries to solo everything? Lots of reasons, but the whole "50% damage penalty for Bushido if you're not the only person there" thing certainly isn't helping any.

    Given that the developers see fit to make Physical the highest resistance on MANY high-end mobs, and crafters choose to make most high-end weapons out of dull copper or something because "LOL everyone has CW anyway" chaos damage is in fact often a reasonably attractive alternative to "Cripes why am I only hitting for 10!"
     
  19. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Umm....I could make a chart that says anything.

    Vastly is a very high-end claim to make, and given that you appear to literally be the only one making it....Stop focusing on me personality-wise, as you long-have, and look at the issue as a whole and what everyone else besides me is saying.

    I am not the only one who contradicts you on this point and I never have been.

    Again, doesn't require a weapon to be 100% of any kind of damage.

    And, again, doesn't require masochism....If you would rather not play this way, if you'd rather rely on the certainty of Chivalry as opposed to the potential of Bushido, that's fine, I do it to.

    Oh, and you seem to not be aware that you now need higher amounts of Chivalry to benefit from Consecrate Weapon; you seem to not have played since the last time we had this discussion, as you continually cite the older numbers.

    You made a claim that cannot be sustained. The proper response is to back off from the claim, not to keep shouting it louder and louder hoping to make it true.

    A claim I never made. I was going by my actual experience.

    Seriously....You've made this claim for years and I'm not the only one who's contradicted you.....You need to calm down about this.

    :(

    -Galen's player
     
  20. weins201

    weins201 Certifiable
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    I'll Restate for some who cant READ Chiv is NOT needed!

    :whip:It is your choice there are many warrior hybrid templates that work.

    many above have stated it, many times sorry if you arn't kililng it in 30 seconds like you think you should :sad3:
     
  21. curlybeard

    curlybeard Seasoned Veteran
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    I find that ninjitsu is a required skill, but that's probably because I am not at all chivalrous.

    Edit: I only have 3 adventuring characters so my essential skill tends to fluctuate as a change around my templates. My previous essential skills were: bushido, poisoning, anatomy, magery, resisting spells, focus
     
  22. Specialshoes

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    I have been having the time of my life with Chivalry/Spellweaving on my warrior. And I think when I have all of my natures fury out with enemy of one I am shredding monsters. I love lowering swing speed on monsters from essence of wind. they cast alot less with thunderstorm.
    I miss my confidence on the run heals from bushido. I also miss my lesser hiryu and a few of the special moves.

    I really to think it is just as effective but different.
     
  23. curlybeard

    curlybeard Seasoned Veteran
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    Interesting. I've never thought about this. Plus you get wildfire for a good AoE. WoD would be very handy for critters that get redlined and just won't die.

    SW utilizes 4/6 casting like Chiv, I think. Do you need 40% LMC on your suit? How do you keep your mana up?
     
  24. Specialshoes

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    Mana is quite a problem. I have mana regen on all the pieces of my armour. full lower mana cost. as much mana leech on my weapon as I can. and am thinking of adding some focus to my template.

    yes it does use 4/6 casting.
     
  25. curlybeard

    curlybeard Seasoned Veteran
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    If you need mana and not necessarily stamina, meditation is twice as effective. You will lose the ability to actively meditate if you are in non-medible armor, but still passively regen at skill/10 vs skill/20 for focus.
     
  26. Mirt

    Mirt Certifiable
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    Curly is right that if your only having a problem med is the way to go. A bit off topic I am glad your liking the sw Special. I have always found it to be a fun way to go.
     
  27. Specialshoes

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    Oh its a blast. Thank you very much for leading me this way
     
  28. Subliminator

    Subliminator Visitor

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    And yet one you do nothing to refute. Gee what kind of monster is this, gee what kind of ore does that type of damage, huh none really since it's mostly spread out, okay is there an item with that damage type that I can have imbued, okay now I just need three more of those and I'm all set for Elementals, now on to Demons... Oh hell Consecrus Arma, there now this game doesn't have an elemental damage system anymore.

    The fact that "Just go out and build everything around being able to chain armor ignores infinitely!" was presented by someone as a serious alternative is pretty hilarious in itself. I mean that's pretty much a rebuttal of last resort to anything, isn't it? A spell could lower the resists on everything to 10% and "Well just armor ignore all the time!" would still technically be better.

    I'm well aware of how they finally at least demanded people actually invest a little in Chivalry to get the maximum benefits from it, and the way you ran around acting like this was some sort of controversial idea you would grudgingly give a chance to.

    But by all means, tell me, how many skill points should be required for this unique ability to take the entire elemental resistance system, which touches everything from whether to make something from dull copper or valorite to whether a mage should cast Flamestrike or Ebolt, and completely remove it from the game?

    Yeah that's worth taking seriously. Also, are you actually trying to argue that Chivalry is fine because you happen to personally think there is some sort of undocumented bug in a particular Bushido ability?

    Try not to run around editing all your Uhall posts for the last three months to say "post deleted" this time.
     
  29. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Your last remark, skrag, gives away the fact that this isn't really about Bushido or Chivalry.

    *shrugs*

    Oh well. I addressed the merits as best as I could; I'll leave the personal attacks and funny pictures to you.

    -Galen's player

     
  30. Mirt

    Mirt Certifiable
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    I love it myself I am actually thinking of swapping off bushido for it on my archer again.
     
  31. pgib

    pgib Guest

    Re: I'll Restate for some who cant READ Chiv is NOT needed!

    I disagree here, it's a design fault. This is not a class-based game, the strengt hof UO is the freedom to choose. We're not talking about a cooking-miner that also wants to bash balrons here, just about a perfectly reasonable, freely choosable skilled warrior that is surpassed in every aspect by another freely choosable skill set.

    I don't know if it happens because with every expansion they feel the need to put some new skill set that overpowers everything else to sell it, but the solutions are so evident (and require no nerfing) that i can't help but feel that something shady lures in the background.
     
  32. Zosimus

    Zosimus Grand Inquisitor
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    I have a 4/6 pure chiv warrior. I pvp and pvm with the guy. I have 120 chiv and 120 focus plus I have no healing. I wear some items with MR and weps I pvm with have hit mana leach is usually one mod.

    PvM wise I never run out of mana. That is with constant casting of concecrate wep, healing and curing with chiv spells.

    PvP sometimes I do but I chug more pots like crazy compared to PvM. I never sit still when I am on him so I usually keep my mana up with all the running around I do :)
     
  33. Mirt

    Mirt Certifiable
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    If your running a dexxer with Weaving right you will actually be doing more damage. That WOD at the end is huge.
     
  34. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    WoD hits hard, but its slow casting And you stop swinging your weapon.

    with that said at 0 SDI WoD does about 300 dmg (what warrior has sdi?)

    Armor ignores do 90-160 (melee) depending on weapon and dmg inc.

    Imo the best "DPS" boost for warriors would be counter attack with bushido+parry. (i don't know anyone who actually uses it)
    this allows you to swing your weapon without effecting your normal swing speed, on a Successful Parry.
     
  35. Mirt

    Mirt Certifiable
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    Arcane Empowerment and go into tree form. Should hit around 323 maybe a bit more. Should be able to get off 2 castings for around 650 points. In addition to all the damage you have previously done. If your leeches are good and you have been casting wildfire that should be a ton. So yes you do stop swinging but that’s just a bit at the end. For all intensive purposes this is a temp that doesn't require chiv. Does it help yes but this is just one of the many ways of showing viable dexxer temps that do not carry chiv. I could also mention that some of the more insane ninja temps also do not have chiv on them.