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Developer Pvp feedback

Discussion in 'UHall' started by DankNuggets, Oct 24, 2012.

  1. DankNuggets

    DankNuggets Adventurer

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    "When the punishment for murderers, banishment from Trammel, was introduced it actually did not deny access to content, because all that was in Trammel was also in Felucca. However as more and more content has been added over the years, access to content has been denied, making the punishment, in effect, more and more severe. Is the punishment for murderers therefore now too severe? Should they be allowed access to the other facets? Forged pardons exist in game, but is there any possibility that 'full pardons' might become available, possibly from Origin Store or clean up points, to allow long established red characters to 'repent' and become good citizens?"

    "Kyronix: Do truly red players want to turn blue? I don’t know the plausibility of releasing an item that would erase all murder counts, but adding new ways to make Felucca a more attractive area to play is something we’ve talked about."

    I know this is a little bit older but I just saw it, so I wanted to address it, my apologies if it's been addressed before, I do not watch stratics very closely and with how many posts are in here it's hard to discover if it's been talked about.


    My main issue here is with the response from the staff. This is the same BS response about fel we have had for the past 10 years. We will see if we can add new ways to make Fel more attractive. Don't do it. It doesn't work very well and the implications often alter the entire game in a negative way. I'm all for pvp and having fun in fel. It's a style of game that doesn't exist anymore. But it doesn't change anything. Fel is boring, want to know why? There is very little to do in comparison to all the other content in the game. Run around Fel for 10 years and tell me you're not bored. Do 1,000 Lady Melisandes see if you are not bored. **** I can solo them with my eyes closed at this point. Do your 15,000 champ spawn. Do your 100th harrower. Bored yet? So OK I get it, give us a new "spawn" so we can do it 10,000 times and then get bored and complain again. Seriously one of the biggest mistakes was not making a Fel abyss. Give access to Fel champ spawns from trammel.. but don't let the reds in.

    Reds cannot interact with NPCs either. The only two that work are the stable master and the banker, and you cannot purchase from them. So that's fun right? RP element still exists I suppose. I love bothering people in my guild to purchase commodity deeds, repair deeds, fort powder, bone machetes, ETC. I guess I should've put in that 99% of Player Vendors are in trammel also.

    Honestly staff should play nothing but reds for a month. No staff powers either, go ahead play the red for a month straight everyday. See how much fun running around Fel only is. Embrace the random guard wacks, the 10 guys rolling up on you to pk ya, being snubbed by all npcs and vendors. Trying to find a res after you die! Jesus I've spent over 45 mins dead on many occassions. It's a different style of play, and it's awesome for many people, but this game is 15 years old. I guess nothing changes in 15 years.

    I know that becoming a 'murderer' is a choice. I know that this system has existed for a long long time. But why? Are people in trammel still looking over their shoulder because they maybe pk'd? Is it because of them being pk'd 13 years ago and still holding a grudge? I don't understand the point of forcing someone to stay in only one part of the game because of a play style they enjoy. Let's be honest here too, no one is running around pking people interuppting 'normal uo activities'. If you are in Fel you know it! You get multiple warnings. The landscape is different. Etc etc. If you have played a long time then you know being red was not hard to do. Any red who ever had poison is going to have tens of thousands of murder counts. Faction system was a nice way to pvp without taking murder counts, BUT IT HASN'T BEEN AROUND THAT LONG. No one played faction until the new artifacts came out. That's very very recent.

    So what is the reason that reds are not allowed into trammel? I've seen reds in trammel, they were blue who got murder counts after entering trammel. They couldn't attack anyone, but they could be attacked. So the idea of not being safe is BS cause it's trammel, you can't flag without being a guild member. Player populations are way down on tram side, so how can one expect that fel is any better? On average fel is 1/4 of the population of trammel.. IF THAT!

    My main complaint however is that you are telling people how to play UO. You do not force the people who do not want to pvp to pvp. However you force those who choose to pvp to be restricted to one land where they cannot leave. How can you have a sandbox game, a game that gives you ultimate freedom, yet tell us how and where to play?

    So in regards to this statement by the staff, I say let reds turn blue if they no longer want to be excluded from 95% of UO. Pvp is not random pking. That's fun for some people but that's not how this game is now. No one is camping your house waiting for you to come home so they can steal your house key. No one is going to ask you for help then lure you into the woods to kill you. Between item insurance and all the bless deeds, etc THERE IS NO RISK ANYMORE. So the old risk vs reward is bs. And trying to bring that back is just going to get everyone else mad again.

    I'm an older player who enjoys pvp, I have a few reds and I'm happy with my arrangement. I just hate being told what to do. I would much rather have my main mage as my pvper, but I won't risk being excluded from UO. I realize UO is unique for the dual facet, and I realize anyone who turns red knows they are risking permanent banishment from most of UO. But my one red is over 8 years old. It has tons of counts and I rarely play him anymore. Pvp is not that fun to me these days, but I can't bring myself to delete the character. He's been a favorite of mine for years and now to think about just deleting him? It turns my stomach.

    Anyways, I guess this is where everyone can tell me im wrong :). Seriously messed up situation tho, we act like the pvpers are reason for any and everything wrong with the game, yet I'm willing to bet 90% of trammel players have not seen a red in the past 5+ years. Risky indeed...
     
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  2. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    People do not like the Fel lifestyle, and that is why it is under-populated, and that is why they do not put as much new content in there. It will be under-used because people do not like the lifestyle you have to experience in order to experience the content.

    The team has never said anything to contradict this other than telling us how much they like it. And that ain't the same thing. If they say I'm wrong I'll shrug, wonder aloud why it contradicts everything I've seen and experience in-game, and stop saying what I'm saying.

    Fellies say they hate Trammel but then they fight very hard for the right to go there. Indeed on GL just a few weeks back, several reds exploited to get to Luna Bank in order to run around saying "WE OWN THIS PLACE."

    -Galen's player
     
  3. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    A lot of these discussions center around enticing sheep to venture among the wolves, but the only real way to fix the Felucca population issue is to create more wolves. Make PvP less costly and more rewarding (note: arenas are a huge step toward doing precisely this). If folks view it as exciting instead of scary/humiliating, then I think you'll find more folks in that facet.

    There are things players can do, too. Instead of taunting folks as "trammies," how about host some events where folks interested in PvP can practice and learn. Publicize events where folks can feel safe dying over and over, give them insurance money, rez them when they fall. Once they gain some confidence, I suspect a lot of them would be hooked as you are.
     
    #3 Taylor, Oct 24, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
  4. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    The problem (well one of them) is that the current Fel population, based on how they behave and what they openly say, likes the idea of there being a lot more sheep than wolves, to use your analogy.

    The only logical course the team has (assuming that radical rethinking of how to integrate PvP into the game is not an option, which we can all tell it's not) is to keep going as they are, which is to keep worthwhile incentives in Felucca (even though the population there doesn't use them) and periodically add something along similar lines.

    Not my own preferred course but it seems to be the most-realistic and the most-likely.

    -Galen's player
     
  5. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    I dunno. Given a choice, I think a lot of PvPers would choose 1 new PvPer to 5 new sheep. There's a wide misconception that all PvPers are PKs. I don't think that's quite the case.
     
  6. Nyses

    Nyses Lore Keeper
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    So,DankNuggets are you asking for Reds to have access to all the lands, or are you asking for a way to turn a red blue again? or either?

    I am in favor of letting reds access all the facets, why not.
     
  7. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    When you look at their posts, PKs and PvPers have themselves created that perception. I remember a thread not too long ago saying something like "why penalize PvPers" and I looked at it and realized it was about reds in Trammel. This poster, a PvPer, equated PKs and PvPers. I didn't, this poster did.

    I also constantly hear in Global Chat about how so and so isn't a real PvPer because he's on a blue. These speakers, PvPers, equated PKs and PvPers. I didn't, they did.

    *shrugs*

    -Galen's player
     
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  8. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    The Fel/Tram issue isn't that much of a risk/reward matter at all. The only ones risking are the ones who are getting raided/attacked etc. But by that same token, Trammel is so risk free as to be ridiculous. Going from I may possibly lose my stuff, to guaranteed not to lose anything is a no brainer. If you go to any good money making location in Tram, you'll still see alot of Fel PvP players. Nobody is going to pass up a sure thing for the same thing with risk. There should be incentive for PvP, not "Luring".

    A factions type system, where participation, garnered rewards, (participation not success), and the rewards were more in tune with part of the game play experience, rather than limited to items or abilities.

    I do think reds being allowed in trammel is an outdated mechanic. Does nothing but waste character space having to create blue and red characters. That whole system could use revision.
     
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  9. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    You still don't lose your stuff in Felucca. Insurance still works there.

    Once upon a time, about a year ago, I was training a new character and died to an Ogre Lord in Despise.

    I thought "well, ok, I'll just go through the teleporter..." and remembered I was in Tram and Tram didn't have such a thing.

    In that instance, and it ain't the only one, being in Tram was actually more of an inconvenience and more of a risk.

    There aren't very many "sure things" as in "overcome this obstacle and you will 100% receive a reward of some kind." (Not counting "gold" "some loot.") Indeed one of the few "sure things" by that definition is power scrolls.

    You will get a set amount. The only question is which one. Supposedly some of Corgul's Corgul-specific rewards are that way too but....Don't know how real that is.

    This shows a certain disregard of the PvP culture, which is very much zero/sum. Again, this isn't me saying this, just watch global chat and watch these boards, and you will see what I mean.

    I believe you mean reds NOT being allowed in Trammel. And again, why fight so hard to come to a place you openly say you hate with every fiber of your being? And then, really, why not dump the status of red entirely given that there's pretty few meaningful penalties, and your idea would dump one of the last?

    *shrugs*

    I'll stop posting on this stuff, I guess. I can only bash my head against the wall so many times.

    -Galen's player
     
    #9 GalenKnighthawke, Oct 24, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
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  10. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    Felucca has been almost completely neglected with each and every expansion since 2001, We would probably have at least 50% (maybe more) of the people who weren't afraid to come to fel still playing today.

    Instead, we went LBR, SE, ML, & now SA+HS(booster) Felucca has 2 champ spawns added with SA, at least a Little bit of love was added... Wonder why Fel isn't so popular?


    I'm just hoping that re-vamped champ spawns will do something like the introduction of spawns did, (give a reason to go to fel). Not just for "trammies", but something for PvPers to fight over other than bragging rights... (if they mean anything)...
     
  11. Izzy MBC

    Izzy MBC Journeyman
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    Being a sheep myself, I would gladly venture into Felluca for excitement and a bit of PvP, even if my main character is a PvM build (I would still primarily seek PvM in Felluca, just with the added hint of danger). But as I found out about 3 hours ago, I get obliterated in literally 2-3 seconds at the hands of a single wolf in prepared battle because of the item-centric nature of the game now - which in-turn has resulted in astronomical damage being dealt which I can't handle.

    I can use Item Insurance to protect my own Item-Centric goodies which I can't afford to replace even once due to Gold prices, but then the Wolves have no reward except for "squashing a bug".

    So I guess the solution is I reconfigure my suit, get some better resists and try to "dual-wield" two character types simultaneously on one. But it doesn't help that PvPer's have the fortune of engineering entirely for their respective task (since such an engineered character will deal with average mobs/PvM). Inversely, a PvMer cannot be engineered to deal with heavy-duty PvM situations, and stand much of a chance against a PvP engineered character.

    I suppose on that note though, maybe I shouldn't be as powerful as I am right now against Mobs... it does seem ridiculous I can kill high-end Paragon mobs. The situation would still persist though, if I could afford the character modification, I'm still trying to find a balance of PvM abilities and PvP (For mere protection), which isn't likewise for a PvPer.

    I guess I'm trying to say, PvMing (Or doing any of my usual activites) in Felluca at this point doesn't seem practical to me, let alone affordable for me to even get started. As much as I genuinely want to be chased by PvPer's on occasions for some thrills, it's pointless in my opinion for both teams.
     
    #11 Izzy MBC, Oct 24, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
  12. Zosimus

    Zosimus Grand Inquisitor
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    Eliminate reds completely.

    Instead of having reds and the possabilty of having Order and Chaos the devs could just simply let you choose your side and your enemies to each other in fel only. These characters can go to any facet. Basically pardon all reds let them be orange to each other in fel as enemies in Order vs Chaos but can go to all facets. They can only fight each other in fel :)

    Crazy idea and most likely flamable with gasoline on it but hey, its a game :)
     
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  13. Surgeries

    Surgeries Grand Poobah
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    I am afraid I will need to insert my 2 gp here, and I will try to do it as succinctly as I am able.

    People who have played this game a long time as people who frequent Fel, have known the entire time...the Entire time, once Murder counts were implemented, exactly and precisely how they work. They understand completely the timing it takes to get them removed, etc. There is no mystery in any of this.

    And, these same people, who have a Choice in whether or not to turn a Blue player Red. They all have that choice. Each and every one gets the same exact choice.

    Each account has up to seven character slots. Some players say that every single...every single...slot has a Red. These players say they don't even have one Blue character to take to Tram...and if they do have one, it isn't as kitted out as their Red character is. So they want to take the Red.

    These players say they "Have" to rack up murder counts for lots of reasons...other players are "Stupid"...they have to "Protect the Spawn"...all of it. Anyone who is not looking through PK lenses can clearly see these are simply excuses for getting their thrills in killing other players. It is just that simple, and yet, this fact is almost entirely overlooked by every Red player out there when this debate comes up. It is a function of the "PK Blinders" they wear that preclude them from seeing the argument objectively.

    No Red is "Forced" to go Red. It takes 5 murder counts to go Red, and each one of those counts is another choice made on the path. If EVERY slot a player has, has a Red...then this player made lots of choices that said "I don't care if I ever go to Tram. I like killing other players and taking murder counts MORE than going to Tram, since I did it on every single character I own. I must not want to go to Tram...at all...on any of these characters!".

    Are/were Noto-PKs jerks? Sure they are/were. Do they deserve to be Blue? I don't think so. But then, they are simply using or abusing known game mechanics to flag another player and kill them without worrying about a count. That isn't against the rules of the game, although it does suck.

    So...for any Red to say "The Red/Blue system is outdated and is no longer valid" carries no more weight than a Trammie saying "The Fel Champ spawn system is outdated and everything in the game should be available everywhere". Both rules have their reasons for existence. Both are long-standing and well known parts of the game. To want to circumvent one (like letting Reds into Tram) without conceding the other (allowing all items from Champ spawns to drop on ALL facets), and using a switch for PvP, is very one-sided and is not a fair compromise.

    I will repeat this...to want to let a Red into Tram to hunt, while Blues from Tram can be attacked and killed in Fel against their will (and please...to say "They knew they could be killed!!" is no more compelling an argument to me than me telling a Red "You knew you would go Red!!"...so please consider that argument rebutted now).

    The Red/Blue rule ensures that any player who actively kills a minimum of five other Blue players in Fel within a certain period of time, in a way that will allow another player to give them a Murder count, cannot travel freely. This has been in the game a long time. It is not account-wide, so a person could make certain they always have a Trammie-Able character to go to Tram with, if they so choose. And, if they did it smart, they could scroll out and nicely equip any such Blue with all the great stuff they have on one of the powerful Red characters they play. It's pretty simple, really.

    The Fel Champ spawn rules ensure that people who PvP have a place to go fight over resources like Power and Stat Scrolls, Pinks, SOTs, Replicas, etc.. These rules, too, have been in the game a long time. Any person who does not want to brave the PvP that ensues in Fel can simply not go, and they can buy the scrolls they want/need with gold they make in Tram. Any Trammie that says "It's too hard...I don't like PKs" or any other reason to not go to Fel has two choices, based on the rules of the game: Learn to PvP, or just buy what you need with Tram gold. Simple.

    I will never accept that one should change (Reds in Tram) if the other doesn't change (ALL drops from ALL Champ Spawns available on ALL facets). To claim one is outdated and should change to suit the PKs who "Have To" kill other players, but the other MUST stay the way it is (Fel ONLY gets Power and Stat scrolls etc) because "It was designed that way" is ludicrous in my opinion, besides being highly myopic and tremendously subjective in its determination. BOTH systems were designed the way they were for a reason, and to stick fingers in the ears when someone wants drops in Tram for Power and Stat scrolls, while screaming loudly that THEY want THEIR Red to be able to go wherever they want because "That rule about Reds/Blues is outdated" couldn't be more skewed in what they think is "Fair", IMO.

    OK...that was 78 gp...but it is the best I can do and still cogently (hopefully) express my points.
     
  14. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    If they allowed reds to venture into tram I'd love to see some silly factor like freely attackable from blues but not the other way around. Yes it's lame but I could see some people really enjoying the challange of living and, like others have said, it's not like you would lose anything. I doubt that many would attack all the same but it could make for a chuckle or two if you "raid" a blue ilsh spawn.
     
  15. SlobberKnocker

    SlobberKnocker Slightly Crazed

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    i think this is a question of what makes coming to fel desireable. for the hard core pvp'r its in the fight. that being said there is very little interest in fighting in a chivalrous manner. most pvp'rs tend to roll with numbers. this leads to more of a gank mentality. most pvp'rs have no desire for 1 v 1 competition. if they did there would be lines in the arenas and there are not. very rarely u see fights to the death. the player that is low on life usually tries to off screen.

    In reality from a gold making perspective the only thing that fel has it the power scroll. however of all the scrolls theres only a handful that are desireable and still fetch a decent profit. all of the most desirable items to be had in game today can be safely obtained on the trammel side. therefore you can make a nice powerful pvm build and go farm on your merry way with little worry of being griefed. (the new despise spawn being the only exception)

    i don't really have a good idea on what gets more participation in fel. maybe a faction revamp where holding a town gives some sort of desirable reward. maybe the +5 stat scroll. maybe something else.

    i wasnt here back in the day but it seemed like there was quite a population in this game when the land was one. maybe we lost sight of that along the way.
     
  16. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    I'd say there is more to it than just your suit isn't up to snuff. I have and do kill many a player on my main sampire but I also do and will PvP. PvPing, IMO, makes a player more focused on making sure that what ever it is you are doing you are doing it to the best of your ablity. My PvM suit is maxed HCI/DCI, full resist, 50 EP, stuffed with dex/HP/mana, 40 LMC and I carry full pots/petals/trapped box. I carry weapons suitable for PvP though not the best they will make a person have to retreat if I can connect.

    The main thing though is the mental situation that one presents. I believe that I can kill any player if the dice roll in my favor regardless of the other person's skills and items. You HAVE to believe this in order to win.
     
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  17. Izzy MBC

    Izzy MBC Journeyman
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    Then I'm under the misbelief that the power of items has come so far they largely decide a Battle, I will do my best to shed this thought. Even though my character is PvM centric, you might not believe me that I still have 42 resists across the board, this surely didn't help my situation in PvP earlier today. I dread to think of the costs associated with remedying this though (I only have 500K Gold to my name).

    My skill set is also Magery, Med, Eval Int, Music, Provocation, Resisting Spells - please tell me I'm wrong, that this doesn't automatically diminish my chances of successfully winning a battle?

    True though, I don't carry Potions, Petals and the like, and if I were to "dual-wield character type" I would take that advice.

    Thanks for your thoughts :)
     
  18. Lythos-

    Lythos- Lore Keeper
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    Well said CovenantX. Not everyone that plays in fel is a pvper or a pker or a loudmouth punk like you see in Chat. The majority of the annoying ones in Chat on Atlantic are faction players sitting in Luna on blues. That's the newer generation of pvpers and they make us all look bad. The ones that don't voice themselves are the ones hurting.

    Fel isn't populated because people don't want to go there, it's dead because it's no longer profitable to go there. We don't have the same content. The holy grail of fel items is a 120 magery scroll. On average luna price is around 11mil. The holy grail of tram only content is the Slither. I've seen a few go for 80mil and up. No matter how much anyone likes fel, that's an 80% profit simply by chosing to play in a tram ruleset environment.

    -Tram has: exclusive resources, underworld dungeon (imbuing ingredients, SA artifacts) 90% of tameables (runebeetles, reptalions, cu's, Hiryu's where Fel has nightmares and GreaterDragons)

    -Fel has: powerscrolls and double resources.

    You can CLEARLY see why fel doesn't have a consistant population besides pvp.
     
  19. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    The biggest issue I see with the current status of reds vs blues is the way the rest if the game has changed over the years. IMO in the early years of UO being "red" was a playstyle. I don't think that is true anymore. You virtually never hear of about a group of reds roving through dungeons killing blues. For the most part (on most shards that I am aware of) pvp happens in about 4 places... Champ spawns, yew gate, faction bases, and fel IDOCs.

    I believe there are lots of players that are in a situation like mine, the vast majority of my reds murder counts are there from when being red was a playstyle. Since I got back to UO about 2 years ago my red has taken far fewer murder counts than my blue characters, but I can keep them blue with playtime and pardons. Unfortunately those options are not really feasible for my red... just too many counts.

    Here is my suggestion... Offer a token in the UO store for a murder count wipe... Maybe 9.99 or so. Limit their use to once per character every 24 months. This would offer the opportunity for folks like me to get rid of some of the old counts without changing the current dynamics of murder counts. Those who want to stay red can do it.

    I would also make one other change with the upcoming (maybe) champ spawn revamps. I would eliminate blue/red in champ spawn zones and make it green/orange. If you are in a champ spawn, you should be prepared to fight. If you are not guilded/allied then you are orange. This would eliminate the issue of getting counts in what should clearly be a pvp area.
     
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  20. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    I think you missed my points completely.

    In Fel what is being risked is the items(powerscrolls) and the work put in to get them. And thats only being risked by the spawner, not the raider. So I think as far as risk/reward its kind of one-sided since the raider isnt risking anything.
    In tram most of the rewards that drop are insurable, so unless you die before you insure it, there isnt even that risk.
    If you keep killing a reward dropping mob over and over again you'll eventually get the one you want, in Tram and Fel. In Fel you can get raided so there's a slight chance you may not keep it if you do get it.(Hence the one-sided risk) And why I'm against the "Lure" tactic,is because there should be some risk on both sides. The Raider should be risking as well.

    Reds not being allowed in Trammel is just an inconvenience. Nothing more than that. Reasoning behind keeping it in, no idea since you can't attack anyone in Tram anyway. As that is pretty much the only consequence to being red its kinda pointless. There should be consequences for being red as a part of that choice.
    My red can't go to tram even if they said tomorrow you can take your reds into tram, I probably wouldnt because I dont like tram. I don't drink soda but I think the 32 oz soda ban in NY is stupid. It doesn't stop people from filling up a 16oz cup twice and drinking the same amount. You wanna stop wanton player killing so you ban the player killer character from going to a place where they cant kill anyone anyway? That's kind of like telling somone who's lactose intolerant they aren't allowed to drink milk.

    Curb it by giving it a real cost. Hey double insurance cost for dying as red. No resurrect for 5 mins as crim flagged red. Some form of punishment that has something to do with the playstyle.
     
  21. DankNuggets

    DankNuggets Adventurer

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    My point is I find it frustrating that so much can change over the years, yet the pvp red/blue system hasn't been altered at all. Being a red is a conscious choice, I know and I think everyone who goes red knows this. There are many many things to pick and choose over the years to validate or discredit it. BUT if everything else in the game changes, gets updated, "fixed", altered, etc then why has an obvious issue not been addressed?

    The wolves to slaughter the sheep is a prime example of boredom! I have always practiced what I would consider to be "fair" pvp. I rarely loot, I res the guy if I can, I don't talk 'smack', and I prefer to fight even odds. Anyone can be awesome when there are 15 of you against 2 people. But the type of pvpers like me aren't talked about. We are rare I suppose. You only ever hear about the guys who pk naked people or the ones who clog up the chat all night saying 'mines bigger then yours'.

    And Logrus you nailed it buddy.
     
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  22. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    Completely wrong.

    Make another character.

    Murder counts decay over time while logged in. If you don't want to be red, don't attack anyone. If you want to do everything else, make another character.




    Uh, no. Part of the better pvp is the non structered pvp. Feel free to go back to guild wars now.

    Only if you want to kill more pvp do this. Besides it takes at least 5 minutes to find a red healer or someone to rez you anyways.



    Here's an idea leave the murder system the hell alone. It's fine. Thank you.
     
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  23. ShadowTrauma

    ShadowTrauma Seasoned Veteran
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    This thread has some truly insightful posts that cover many facets of this broad issue, a productive read for sure.

    I think Danknuggets put a great deal of effort into his starting post about his views on being a "Red" and does succeed with illustrating some of the issues red players have to deal with. His comments on the lack of content in Fel and how it can feel boring is accurate in my view. However, I do not agree with the overall theme of letting reds "turn" blue or allowing reds into Tram, another poster excels in portraying a counter argument.

    Slightly out of order, but Surgeries (in one of the best written posts I've read in a long time), does a marvelous job of articulating why red players should not be able to enter Tram.

    I am a huge fan of Logrus' posts and I believe he is most successful in pointing out how outdated the risk/reward system is in general. He offers some interesting suggestions as always, but I still feel Surgeries' post effectively refuted the reds in Tram issue.

    Lythos- and CovenantX make further reference to some of the imbalances between the facets and also point out that while the stereotype of a "PvPer" is often sorrowfully accurate, it is narrow-minded to judge all PvPer's the same way. I appreciate Syrus' understanding of different playstyles and can relate to his posts, there are many of us PvPers left that are understanding, considerate, and honorable players. I certainly do not paint all "Tram" (and I use the term lightly) players with the same brush.

    I consider myself a PvPer at heart, I enjoy my time spent in Fel as the added risk is an exciting element not currently attainable anywhere else. The majority of my time however is spent in Tram, mostly for the content. I do not wish to impart my playstyle or negatively affect another persons playstyle in any way, but I believe the "Fel" (and I use the term lightly again) players have some grounds in their assessments of the situation. I certainly have a great deal of respect for all players of this game, so when the argument turns to Fel vs. Tram I become disenchanted. I understand we may be the minority and I can be patient (I feel we have been), all I ask for is some serious consideration, it is just a shame to neglect one important aspect of the game.

    I realize the devs have said they are talking about how to make Fel a more attractive area to play, so I hope they read some of these thoughtful posts of my peers.
     
    #23 ShadowTrauma, Oct 25, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
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  24. startle

    startle Siege... Where the fun begins.
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    Personally, I'd still have 5 houses on Fel Pacific if they hadn't taken all the leaves off the trees.... That pretty much did it for me. I'm serious....
     
    #24 startle, Oct 25, 2012
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  25. startle

    startle Siege... Where the fun begins.
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    I don't mind goin a round or two with the neighbors, and even the tedious never ending effort of making sure I win most of the time.... But you left me with a dead earth to boot... That's just nasty!
     
  26. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    turn desolation off?

    UO Stratics *New* | UO.cfg
     
  27. startle

    startle Siege... Where the fun begins.
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    You put this back in Fel, and I'll go back and let you try to kill me again.....

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Thinking the "masses" would want to live in what looks to be a burn'd out forest, was a HUGE mistake...

    Fix it!
     
  28. startle

    startle Siege... Where the fun begins.
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    Tell that to every new player... It's the "default" ... They leave and never look back...
     
    #28 startle, Oct 25, 2012
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  29. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    I do think there should be an item at the EA store as an option to wipe all murder counts and have it cost like 6.99 for all your counts to be wiped would be good for characters with 10k plus or for that matter 150 who wants to idle a character for 1 year to turn him blue lol
     
  30. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    Couldn't have said it better myself.
     
  31. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    *smiles* Interesting thread.
     
  32. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Interesting reads. People are overlooking one thing. Fel controls the biggest game changing item in all of UO's history, power scrolls. Without these, I do not care what you are wearing, you aint squat. Give Tram the Power/Stat Scrolls and Fel can have all the rest and Fel would still be behind the 8 ball. Put all spawns in both Tram and Fel rule sets and then the Reds can go do all they want.

    IMHO Reds want access to all spawns and still control the Fel Power/Stat Scrolls market.
     
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  33. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    I do think the murder system needs some revising though, it just doesn't make much given the current state of the game. I do believe it's unfair to restrict them to fel if they don't plan on adding new content to the desolate facet. I understand the need to feeling of a need to penalize for pking but the system is outdated and hasn't been touched in a long long time.

    Random thought: Allow reds access to the other facets but only under penalizing conditions. In other tram-ruleset facets they would suffer stat and/or skill loss, only banking can be done in bucs den.
     
  34. Lythos-

    Lythos- Lore Keeper
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    You should read my post further up this very thread. Powerscrolls are chump change anymore. Replicas are so limited to who may want them they're not really worth farming. This has 0 to do with scrolls. At this point in the game Tram should be getting 120 scrolls as well.

    Back in the day when powerscrolls were still profitable people used their very best characters to do spawns/defend and or Raid fellow players. Hence why there's so many reds. Now these people want the slate wiped clean to experience the content that was left out of fel.

    Do i agree with letting reds in tram? Nope. I do like the idea of a token to wipe counts. I would suggest a $4.99 token to wipe up to 2500 counts. That way people with more would have to buy more obviously. There are some people that have every playable character red on their account. (it's happened to me before trying to protect my timed investment of doing a spawn). I can't blame them for wanting to actually play a profitable facet.

    But most importantly, this discussion wouldn't be taking place if Fel had equal content...

    #OccupyFel Equality to all!
     
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  35. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    This couldn't be truer.
     
  36. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    How about if a Red dies in Tram, they will be in stat loss, like factions, for 10 minutes from when they enter Fel. So if a Red dies doing the Stygian Dragon they have 2 options. 1) They could continue doing the dragon, but it would be with a %20 stat loss, or 2) they could leave the Dragon go to Fel and in 10 minutes be out of stat loss. Seems like the best of both worlds. Reds get to go to Tram, but there are "punishments" if the red dies.
     
  37. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    You want equal content when Fel has had and still has the BIGGEST content is all of UO and have had it for how many years (Pub 16)? Now you want in to the rest of UO? Please feal free to make as many Blue players you want by either wiping your REDS or open another account. You picked your play style knowing what it was all about and controlled (and still do) the biggest game changer in UO and charged BLUES zillions of gold and now BLUES are doing it to you and you want into Tram. Sorry you don't get your cake and eat it too. UO stills owes Tram a lot more berfore what Fel got even comes close to being equal.
     
  38. Picus of Napa

    Picus of Napa Slightly Crazed
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    Every blue made a choice to either not do a spawn, learn how to defend it, make an effective guild or join a group that already was effective. The rest of us did spawns, learned how to defend it, made an effective guild and joined those that were already effective. Yes we enjoyed it, the fight, more so than the profits that we made but, as I and others have said, PvP drives the furtherance of the game.
     
  39. Lythos-

    Lythos- Lore Keeper
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    Wrong wrong and and another helping of wrong.

    I haven't had a red for some number of years and nowhere did i state i currently play a red. I was merely stating MY personal understanding of how fel players...play. I have had a full account full of reds in the past but times have changed. Just because i have a blue sampire doesn't mean i should "have to" find a hunting spot in a tram ruleset environment nor does it mean as a blue you cannot enjoy a fel hunting spot/pvp spot or whatever it is you do.

    You're so wrong about fel having the biggest content. Doom was added as the tradeoff for fel getting spawns and powerscrolls. From there it was forgotten and left to collect dust. Spawns pailed in comparison to what Doom arties were bringing in at the time price wise with items that everyone wanted and still does. Orni, inquis, HoM, Totem those were all huge sellers for both facets and in fact the orni's selling price TODAY is still higher than the highest priced powerscroll.

    It's a long standing patern from there on out that Fel has been forgotten. It's the ORIGINAL facet and one myself and others want equality in.

    #OccupyFel
     
  40. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    LBR proved you are wrong. Fel is dead and SP is not the largest shard. Try again.
     
  41. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Wrong wrong and and another helping of wrong. 7XGMs are a joke. PvP/PvM all require power scrolls. Tram is still waiting for equality from Pub16. :next:
     
  42. Lythos-

    Lythos- Lore Keeper
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    You're missing the point and undoubtly an important history lesson.

    Spawns were added pub 16 yes. A year later i think pub 18-19 Doom was added as a tradeoff for players that wanted to experience a spawn like environment without the RISK of losing your hard work.

    After the creation of Doom, PvP/PvM required doom artifacts due to the exceptional mods (for the time). Oni, Inquis and HoM were in demand for every mage. Warriors were fighting (pun intended) for a totem and hunters headress. Even today the Orni, totem and hunters are still widely used.

    My point is Tram was given a counter for spawns and equality was reached through a facet trade system. Tram needed scrolls, pvpers needed high end artifacts that couldn't be obtained in fel.

    If you bother to read i even said tram should get 120 scrolls at this point. I never said anything about fel exclusive items either. We just want the same content.
     
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  43. Gorbs

    Gorbs Sage
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    That publish was at least a decade ago and you still want everyone to pay for the developer's sins? There is a failed mechanic involved with Champ Spawns. They inherently encourage groups/guilds/etc. to protect the spawn from raiders (blue or red). The problem is you still took murder counts doing that protection. They should have been established in a manner that required participants to consent to pvp or have been left as a purely pvm encounter.
     
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  44. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    You don't need power scrolls to kill anything/anyone regardless if it's pvm/pvp. They help, but they are not needed. My crafter is 6x gm 1xlegendary (120 imbuing) which you get from Ter-mur.
    All of my pvm dexers are 6xgm> 1x legendary (weapon skill 120) fel.

    Powerscrolls = everything that can be dropped from Trammel, Malas, Tokuno, Ter-Mur & Ilshenar?


    I don't understand why if something is in fel it's not right... I mean, just because it's in fel doesn't mean there's always going to be players there waiting to kill you (even when we had players)... it just means that it is possible.

    I'm not arguing that the majority of spawns weren't attempted to be controlled, they "were", they are not anymore... and it still wasn't impossible to do a spawn without people showing up.

    Do a T2A spawn if you want power scrolls. I'll wager you'd beable to farm it all day without running into anyone PKs or not. You lose insurance gold if you die, big deal. (same in tram) you just have a better chance to be killed in fel, not only because of PKs, but you can't just walk through the mobs either.



    Power-scrolls are the reward people go to fel for? Something needs to change with this. make the drops different between tram & fel for spawns/peerless that are on both sides.
    **by this In no way am I saying, put all the good stuff in fel and all the bad stuff in tram (It needs a balance between the two)**

    The best example (IMO) would be to add Item-Sets that drop half of the set in tram & half in fel (rewards would be different, you need BOTH for it to be useful)

    I don't care if they make power scrolls drop in tram, but they need to make it so certain ones drop in tram and the others drop in fel, Otherwise there would be NO Reason to do one side instead of the other.

    Forcing people into fel, is the same as Forcing people in tram. (There's no difference since insurance gold is the only thing at risk for both sides), Drop rates are supposedly higher in fel (for things in both facets), It's hard/impossible to tell a difference (it relys on RNG, we all know how that works))

    What about farming in dungeons on the fel side? You can't recall in/out, but the loot is the same as the tram-side. Double fame is the trade-off?

    The bottom line is Insurance is the only penalty regardless of being in tram, Fel has PKs as an extra danger with little/no extra benefit unless you're spawning. Since you can't get power scrolls anywhere else other than felspawns, this is all fel has.
     
  45. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    Sigh, more often than not player developments have been done by the same group that PvP'd was all I was trying to say.

    Fel is dead because there is no reason to go there other than it's nice and empty though the same can be said for tram. If I could recall into the same spots as I can in tram I'd never bother going to tram but the annoyance of that recall issue drives myself and others to just marking a rune and going. I, and most others who PvP'd, have already managed to get more than enough scrolls to make thier chars and ten fold more so there is little point in doing spawns anymore other than looking for the odd drop.

    The only thing that Fel has that makes it by far better than tram is the ablity for EVERYONE to attack a person who is pissing you off, my goodness would I have loved to see that in tram.
     
    #45 Picus at the office, Oct 26, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
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  46. Lythos-

    Lythos- Lore Keeper
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    :cheerleader: AMEN!!

    LOL all of my old pvp warrior templates only had 1 scroll eaten (wep skill).

    Ilshenar is another land that needs major attention. It has less than fel and about as much attraction as rotting roadkill now that there's Shame/Wrong. Cant recall in, can't place a house, loot isn't the best. It's useless right now as well.

    I do disagree with certain scrolls dropping in fel or tram. I would give them the same amount of scrolls with the same chance for the same scrolls but i wouldn't offer the extra protection scrolls. Correct me if im wrong but don't Ilshenar spawns drop 105s or 110s? Wasnt that the whole idea behind the combing scroll thing (ive never bothered with combining so i honestly don't know)?

    Fel used to have a faster spawn rate but the gold farmers killed that. The spawn rate is the same now AND i have to walk from the beginning of the dungeon to my spot. To farm in Shame i have to start from the entrance and walk, and walk, and walk some more. If i want to pvm in Tram i face other people that muscle in on my spot or lure things by walking by.

    My main point is, i would stay in fel IF: Harrowers no longer spawned in revamped dungeons. Recall ability inserted into revamped fel dungeons (this is why no harrowers would not be spawned) and Fel had an underworld of its own.
     
  47. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    One of the last times I bothered to do the long walk into Fel Shame I managed to actually get into a fight(now this was months ago) on my sampire with a tamer mage. It was fun and reminded me of the old times though I suspect that he didn't expect to have his mare get stomped and end up face down in a pile of my disgust but it was fun all the same. That all said it's a far walk in, a further walk back and should be changed for the "new" dungeons.
     
  48. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    The problem is, that Items dropping in both Tram & fel remove the reason anyone would want to farm (pvm) for it in Fel.

    Tram meaning tram-ruleset facets.
     
    #48 CovenantX, Oct 26, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  49. Capt.E

    Capt.E Guest

    I understand the OP, but how did this conversation get to powerscrolls?? IMO spawns do not belong in tram. Period. With current populations on shards, you can do spawns and never be found. If you are, wait an hour or go do some other Pvm type encounter. Then go try a different spawn location.

    The OP was about fel getting 0 content for a long, long time. The exception being 2 new spawn locations. That's it in almost a decade. There were some DEVS that equated all reds to evil. It's hard making changes when the lead dev believes the place is full of "evil" players. They fail to understand that the reason people love PVP is because it's a human interaction, not run by computer AI. I honestly could kill most Pvm encounters with just 90 healing and about 10k explo pots.

    So what pvp'ers want is a new way to interact with each other. Possibly a chaos vs. order system that had tangible rewards based on players results. It would be cool to see a large arena type encounter that had various terrain and a group could make decisions on what type of group(eg. 3v3 or 4v3, or whatever) and then the type of game played. Capture the flag, bagball rugby, defend a base, raid a mini-spawn. These are just a few ideas. I'm sure this community could come up with some better ones.

    ...and 10 years is a long time to be ignored by a game that is supposedly a sandbox. This sandbox has a partition and we haven't gotten a new swingset, slide or monkey bars in 10 plus years. Maybe we can play on your shiny new stuff for a little while? Please?
     
    #49 Capt.E, Oct 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 26, 2012
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  50. DankNuggets

    DankNuggets Adventurer

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    I love a lot of the points I'm seeing here. I 100% agree that Ilsh needs to be looked at. If we have so much content and so many items , etc do we really need more "candy"? I personally would rather we update and polish some of the outdated and under developed areas of UO. It's awesome to have tram/fel, ilsh, malas, tokuno, and ter mur. But whats the sense in adding a new land or a new items if the stuff we have already isn't working?

    And if we keep cranking out these new lands/items/mods etc, can we at least remember we have 2 facets? I know for a fact that PvP is a whole lot different now then it was 5, 10, even 15 years ago. A murder count removal token for money is a great idea for that.
    Imagine being a returning vet, PvP was very popular last time you played, you have numerous murder counts but you can't really learn the new stuff because you're red. The odds of finding your old guild members/friends is slim to none. Gonna stick around awhile aren't yah? Nah you're gonna get owned a few times then say screw this and leave. I suppose that letting reds into tram or what ever it was wouldn't really do much. New content, items, etc is limited to Trammel, but is there any real reason to visit anywhere other then perhaps Ter Mur, and of course luna? Really I can't think of a reason that anyone goes to Ilsh or Tokuno anymore. The count token makes the most sense here.

    The abyss added 2 new champion spawns. Ok cool, but I was under the impression champ spawns were kind of slowing down... so we add 2 new ones to revitalize it? Ok maybe.. but instead of easy spawns, they add hard ones that people usually avoid. A spawn is not usually for fun, it's for scrolls.. so why are people going to do a hard spawn over an easy one? More time to be spotted? It just doesn't make much sense and doesn't seem to be thought out, just thrown in because someone went ah crap we forgot about Fel. They did however plan the escape route well, as the one spawn is directly connected to Tram, so blues can easily escape without being pursued too far.

    I just hope that the devs decide to look into the way the system is, instead of just tossing more content or items to 'force' people not interested in pvp to a pvp area. That doesn't seem to me to be the best course of action. Perhaps I'm missing something...
     
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