1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

[Feedback] DEVs In-depth look at throwing skill again...

Discussion in 'UO Test Center' started by WarUltima, Apr 26, 2010.

  1. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ok we all know throwing WILL WHIFF on the first throw (which doesnt take any trick to reproduce) so lets set it aside.

    Throwing has faster swing speed per damage or DPS (damage per second) than archery on paper BUT in reality...

    1. Throwing has no quiver's 10% MODIFIED damage which increase the FINAL ARCHERY DAMAGE by 10% which pretty much made up for the lower base damage difference archery have compare to throwing.

    2. Archery weapons are allowed to go to 40ssi which makes up the slower base speed archery has compare to throwing.

    3. You throw your weapon too close you get a HCI penalty shoved right up your @@@.

    4. You throw your weapon too far you get a hefty DI penalty shoved right up your @@@ again.

    5. Why you made 150 str which is the absolutely hardcap the requirement to use throwing at their max range?
    5a. OK so we sink a lot of stat points into strength so we can use our throwing weapons at their capable range BUT when we do throw them at their max range we get slapped by a HUGE DI penalty? Why are you double punishing throwing skill?

    6. Why you made 150 dex ALONG WITH 120 SWORDSMANSHIP so we can use our throwing weapon at close range and not losing HCI that archery can do with 10 dex and 0 melee weapon skill?

    7. There seem to be an animation delay for throwing... I have 180 stam rocking a 30ssi boomerang which I should be able to throw once every 1.25sec at swing cap yet I swing much slower... it seems to be 1.25 sec + the time for weapon return animation to finish? My archer shooting repeater at capped swing speed attacks faster than my thrower could throwing boomerang at the same server capped swing speed as archery?

    8. Why we have to whiff our first throw 99% of the time as a legendary bladeweaver even if our target is merely a mongbat/cow/bird/dog/cat and so on?


    OK, why do a blade weavers need the following skills AND HAVE TO MAINTAIN X TILES away from their enemy:
    I will be nice and put it in a nice equation for you...

    1.(120 Throwing + 120 Swordsmanship + 150 DEX + 150 STR) = 120 Archery

    2.Throwing Sweet Spot ONLY DI/HCI = archery at ANY RANGE.

    3. Archer can shoot at MAX DAMAGE from 0 tile thru 10 tile. Throwing cant.

    4. Archer can shoot at MAX HIT CHANCE from 0 tile thru 10 tile. Throwing cant.


    In conclusion, other than throwing being 1 handed weapons (which is kinda lacking in selections currently) and takes no ammo to fire, archery is better than throwing in EVERY SINGLE WAY POSSIBLE in comparison...

    and I dont see how throwing skill being one handed (which is really nothing but a free balanced mod WITH a -10 max ssi penalty) and cost no ammo to use is "good enough" to make up for all the craps that archery skill never had.

    Please spend sometime and testing it and you will know why I said IMO "Throwing is like Archery -2"... and possibly correct all these issue as part of the "supposedly" ongoing PvP balance pass.

    Thanks for your time.
     
  2. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2008
    Messages:
    4,110
    Likes Received:
    907
    not to mention that throwing is actually "slow" a 2s weapon will not appear to be a 2s weapon, because of the whole "throw---hit---come back" versus swing hit swing hit.


    EDIT: i see now, u did mention this glitch =)
     
  3. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, I really gone my way out and tested this.
    Throwing swing speed seems to be limited and it's impossible for it to meet the server cap swing speed.

    Put a 150 stam archer with 30ssi repeater along side with a throwing with boomerang. Both should be swinging at the same speed (1.25s per attack). In reality... the archer WILL be shooting at max swinging speed and the thrower can only do it probably around 2s per throw.

    This is very buggy and it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out how broken this skill is.

    DEVs if you dont think throwing is in a very bad shape please make archery work the same way for 3 days, and I GUARAN-fking-TEE you there will be an instant riot on Uhall... then maybe you will take throwing seriously.
     
  4. Widow Maker

    Widow Maker Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    1,391
    Likes Received:
    42
    Just throwing a thought out there, that you may have overlooked in your zeal:


    Throwing is NOT Archery.

    It is obvious that there are some bugs in throwing to be addressed, but do not make the mistake of ever being able to compare throwing to archery.

    There is a very good reason why the Bow is far more powerful, more accurate and faster than a hand thrown object; The Bow is far more powerful than the Arm. While throwing has some very powerful applications, at the right range, it is far inferior to the bow shot. I would have thought that such an intelligent young man would have recognized the difference.

    I just hate it when I am wrong, good thing it happens so infrequently.

    It seems like you are trying to make an apple an orange. Deal with it..it's an apple.
     
  5. R Traveler

    R Traveler Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2005
    Messages:
    2,950
    Likes Received:
    231
    IRL its possible to fire series of arrows, pairs of arrows and so on. But you can't swing boomerang faster than it returns back.
     
  6. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    Likes Received:
    0
    And UO is IRL to you eh? Okay......

    IRL theres also rockets and machine guns, missiles and nukes.
     
  7. Widow Maker

    Widow Maker Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    1,391
    Likes Received:
    42
    We're sorry that you can not accept some faction of reality in a video game. However, this is not a game issue, it is more of a personal issue.
     
  8. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2008
    Messages:
    4,110
    Likes Received:
    907


    UO: Middle East Expansion.

    New Playable Race

    (censored as to not to offend anyone)

    New Skill:

    Bomb Building
    Gun Smithing
    Explosives

    New Weapons:

    Pipe Bombs
    Guns
    Grenades
    Molotov Cocktails

    New Mounts:

    Tank
    Humvee
    Beat up 1989 Chevy


    New dungeon:

    (also censored lol)
     
  9. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    Likes Received:
    0
    Throw in some small airplanes too. :thumbup1:
     
  10. Widow Maker

    Widow Maker Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    1,391
    Likes Received:
    42
    Again..not a development issue... this is purely a personal issue.
     
  11. I have a thrower on Sonoma as well as multipul archers. One the reason we all compare it to archery is the Devs said it is comprable skill to archery hence u can compare the two.

    Yes in real life u have to wait for the boomarang to return and I understand this has to translate some to game but then it should also be taken into account when the weapons speed is put on weapon at creation. This could be easily addresed by adding new imbue quality throw return rate (just a suggestion)

    I agree with the this whiffing problem needs to be addressed asap as its just not cool that u miss everything u throw at on first shot. Be some real hungery hunters back in the day if that happen in rl. Never seen a deer stand still after I miss with an arrow ....

    My question is why they nerfed other skill last patch but did not addresse the serious problems with throwing. Are we really not taken seriously ?
     
  12. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2008
    Messages:
    1,491
    Likes Received:
    66
    Actually you don't miss every time. It's just the graphic that delays the first hit. If you look carefully when you attack someone/something you can see the thrown weapon returning. Well to not miss your first attack you wait for it to return then stop moving and you'll have the normal chance to hit.


    Sure it shouldn't work this way, but it does at the moment so work with it till it's fixed. It's still 100% more effective for dismounting then a slow 5 second swinging heavy x bow. Especially with the 50% HCI cap. Honestly depending on throwing alone to kill people would be the dumbest idea anyone could have considering the weapon selection. The only useful thing throwing has to offer is the cyclone.
     
  13. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    Likes Received:
    0
    You also forgot to mention the weapon delay animation is taking extra time thus adding extra delay to the weapon skill. A boomerang (2sec weapon same as dagger) with my gargoyle rocking 50ssi and 172 stam I cannot throw the weapon for faster than 1.75s per swing.

    And again NO it's not graphical desync we got someone who tested it even. And try to STAND STILL FOR 10+ seconds (which is enough to clear up all swing timer and desyncs) then take a swing at a mongbat... you will still miss 90% of the time, and NO hitting 10% of the time against something that you should be able to hit 100% of the time is NOT OK.

    This is G.v.P's post on his findings... actual ingame test...

    001a. Rabbit -- w/ 0 Throwing (30 innate) hit first hit (forgot to set throwing, lol)

    FIRST HIT TEST
    120 throwing 120 swords 120 bushido (used for heals ... does this effect HCI due to parry tie in, even if I have 0 parry? hrm...) Hit Test, 50 HLD, 0 HCI, 50 hit fireball, HLL 24, DI 53, Luck 118, Verite Boomerang, normal hits -- 115 STR 45 DEX 105 INT

    001. Slith -- miss
    002. Slith -- miss
    003. Slith -- hit
    004. Lowland Boura -- hit
    005. Lowland Boura -- miss
    006. Ruddy Boura -- miss
    007. A Greater Mongbat -- miss
    008. Slith -- hit
    009. Slith -- miss
    010. Mongbat -- hit
    011. Ortanord -- miss
    012. Toxic Slith -- miss
    013. A Tropical Bird -- miss
    014. A Ruddy Boura -- miss
    015. Slith -- miss
    016. A Chicken Lizard -- miss
    017. A Chicken Lizard -- miss
    018. A Silver Serpent -- miss
    019. A Lowland Boura -- miss
    020. A Greater Mongbat -- miss
    021. A Slith -- hit
    022. A Mongbat -- miss
    023. A Silver Serpent -- hit
    024. A Slith -- miss
    025. Lowland Boura -- miss
    026. Mongbat -- miss
    027. A Chicken Lizard -- miss
    028. A Tropical Bird -- miss
    029. Lowland Boura -- miss
    030. A Rat -- miss

    6/30 = 20% first hit

    120 throwing 120 swords Hit Test, 50 HLD, 0 HCI, 50 hit fireball, HLL 24, DI 53, Luck 118, Verite Boomerang, normal hits -- 115 STR 130 DEX 20 INT

    001. Lowland Boura -- miss
    002. A Rat -- miss
    003. Mongbat -- miss
    004. Chicken Lizard -- miss
    005. Slith -- miss
    006. Lowland Boura -- miss
    007. Chicken Lizard -- miss
    008. Tropical Bird -- miss
    009. A Silver Serpent -- miss
    010. Mongbat -- miss
    011. Lowland Boura -- miss
    012. Greater Mongbat -- miss
    013. Woodpecker -- hit
    014. Greater Mongbat -- miss
    015. Skree -- hit
    016. Snake -- miss
    017. Kingfisher -- miss
    018. Snake -- miss
    019. Lowland Boura -- miss
    020. Snake -- miss
    021. Skree -- miss
    022. Horse -- miss
    023. Greater Mongbat -- miss
    024. Mongbat -- miss
    025. Horse -- miss
    026. Greater Mongbat -- hit
    027. Greater Mongbat -- miss
    028. Hind -- miss
    029. Greater Mongbat -- miss
    030. Lowland Boura -- hit

    4/30 = 13.33% first hit

    I don't know if STR or DEX improves HCI ... I think STR improves range ... forget what DEX improves ... but I'm tired of hitting stuff for now lol. Out of 30 random targets, I actually hit less on first hit when I raised dex, and I probably hit mostly weaker things too, so that's odd. But, 30 trials isn't going to provide very accurate data, I guess.

    However, and maybe it's a matter of "sweet spots," but to me, yeah, I have to agree, Throwing is pretty terrible. Ought to have a very high chance w/ 120 to hit things with 0-40 especially. Missing a bird for example is pretty dumb.



    desync doesnt have anything to do with it. Only archer with 0 ssi and 10 stam fires HXbow once every 5 seconds and weapon delay isnt a problem since you are doing a "drive by" instant dismount when you hop of your mount. I would be as effective doing drive by dismounts even with a 10s swing weapon. (actually if theres a bow with 20s swing delay (400% longer than HXbow) that does ONLY 200% of the base dmg of a HXbow, then it will be the new favorate dismount weapon of the CENTURY.

    If you think throwing is ok rightnow lets make archery work like throwing where there's always first swing miss + -42HCI when shooting someone closer than 3 tiles + -62DI when you shoot someone at near max distance + 2 extra ticks (0.5 seconds) of delay in between swings, you will probably be the first one to jump in and complain.

    The 5% extra hci you said? it's laughable considering when you underthrow you get something like a -42 hci, you will need to rock 92 HCI for a gargoyle to have an edge over archers with 45. Oh when you over throw you get -62DI as well.

    1. First swing miss
    2. Weapon delay making throwing one of the weakest DPS skill in game.
    3. Heavy HCI penalty when throwing too close
    4. Heavy DI penalty when throwing too far
    5. Requires an additional skill and high DEX (swordsmanship) for throwing to function like archery at 10dex at close range.

    Throwing is amazingly bad, if you cant see how bad it is I dont know what to say.
     
  14. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Premium Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2004
    Messages:
    7,469
    Likes Received:
    361
    Throwing is well for lack of a better word borked ! it sucks aka does not work well !!!
    needs fixed !!!!
     
  15. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2008
    Messages:
    1,491
    Likes Received:
    66
    I have no problems using it in pvp at all as long as i wait about 1.5 seconds before taking a swing. When I can dismount 3 different people in under 4 seconds I'd say it works pretty well. Then switch it up and use a sword of shatter dreams and well... it gets pretty nasty.

    I've yet to use throwing with out swords though.. maybe that's why I don't see your problem. I normally try to stay pretty close too since I'm not maxed on str.. only about 125 so I'm usually about 5 tiles away before i even think about dismounting someone.

    I'm only sharing from my point of view and personal experience, and the cyclone is one of the best assisting weapons put in the game, but that's really the only useful thing about throwing once you figure it out.
     
  16. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2008
    Messages:
    1,491
    Likes Received:
    66
    I always remain moving to clear it up, and I always hit critters with low skill. Same thing in pvp.

    This is what I do:
    (all while still moving )
    Select target (mobile)
    Attack selected target
    Wait for the animation to return to me
    (Stop moving)
    And it's an instant hit

    Maybe my character's broken in a good way? I dunno... I just play the game.
     
  17. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, see the thing is for archery you can pretty much instantly see a target inside 8 tiles dismount self instantly dismount him with attack target they wont even see you are coming. For gargoyles even if what you said is true I will have to chase someone, attack him and get an automatic whiff (animation glitch?) and then try to come to stationary land and dismount after 1.5seconds then I will be able to dismount him. 2 problems here

    1. archery is truely instant so people cant run away the 1.5s window for throwing is more than enough to leave the throwing weapon range (1.5sec is enough to run 6 tiles)

    2. You lose out on the element of suprise. You have to attack someone and PURPOSELY whiff/trigger the graphical glitch and you are basically telling your enemy "Hey dude I am coming to kill you, please stand still for 1.5 seconds so I can actually hit you because if you dont stand still I cant dismount you no matter how close I am from you".

    And since you have swordsmanship with throwing you dont get hit as hard by the HCI penalty. At close range you get a huge hci penalty, if I recall correctly, up to -42hci at point blank. Why do you need to spend 120 addition skill points (swords) or get 92 hci just so throwing can work like stand alone archery skill? And to make throwing hit as hard as archery at long range you need to have 162 damage increase on your items to hit as hard as archery with 100?

    If archery isnt overpowered then throwing is flat out underpowered or broken.

    If throwing is fine then archery is flat out ultra overpowered considering they are comparable skills according to DEV.
     
  18. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    Likes Received:
    0
    I couldnt find the data sheet (they removed all data from the old SA beta forum)

    But here is what that we KNOW for throwing at close range

    Close Quarters Combat

    Even though they may be meant to be thrown, these weapons all have sharp, mean edges on them - perfect for catching an unsuspecting melee fighter off guard. However, as they were designed for ranged combat, a certain amount of proficiency in Swordsmanship is expected for the player to effectively wield a throwing weapon in close quarters.

    * Distance to target must be less than two (2) tiles
    * Players with Swordsmanship skill can partially negate the Hit Chance penalty incurred by such close proximity
    * 120.0% Swordsmanship will negate a potential Hit Chance penalty
    * The other half of a potential Hit Chance penalty is determined by a player’s Dexterity

    Compare to archery
    * Distance to target can be anywhere from 0 to 10 tiles
    * 120 Swords ONLY negate part of the hci penalty... Archery even with ZERO (0) swords has FULL HCI/Zero (0) penalty AT ALL TIMES
    * Archery with 10 dex has ZERO HIT PENALTY and hit for MAX HCI AT ALL TIMES

    See the imbalance? Archery really doesnt look WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY MUCH BETTER to you than throwing?
     
  19. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2008
    Messages:
    1,491
    Likes Received:
    66
    Yes I see the imbalance, but no, I don't think it's waaaaaaaay better. The combination of a max SSI dismount at a distance and quick switching to a sword of shattered dreams seems far more appealing to me. Better for groups, and better for solo. It's pretty funny when someone gets dismounted/splintering weap'd/disarmed/AI/AI/AI'd they really have no choice but to take it no matter what template they are.
     
  20. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    Likes Received:
    0
    A dexers stand still for 1.5 second waiting for your glitched animation to go away then get dismounted? Not saying it couldnt be done but any half way decent dexer will never ever get dismounted by a thrower. And why are you talking about a dismount gank? 3 archers can moving shot gank you @50dmg (dual proc) a pop once every 2.75 second or 30ish dmg once every 1.5 second. The fastest throwing weapon cannot attack for faster than 1.75sec (limited by weapon return delay). Archery weapon is capable of going to 40ssi, and there's ZERO throwing weapon hits nearly as hard as a HXBow moving shot.

    Apperently you play in a group. Dismount is useless 1v1, you actually screw yourself if you do that. After 5 second dismount confusion your enemy is instantly back on their faction mount while it takes you a casting time to start flying again which can be disrupted by even a weaken skill.

    You dont feel archery is that much better is because you are ganking. 5 pure wrestling scribe mage (the weakest template ever in the entire UO) can gank just as effective. The truth is you land to try to attempt to dismount which requires you spending 1.5second to "pre-attack" him (archery doesnt), land (archers hop off horse), be stationary and hope no more weapon delay and auto whiff bug (archers has no limit). You whiff it takes you 1.5 second to take off and start flying again assuming your enemies are too stupid to interrupt you and if they arent stupid you just dismount shot yourself now YOU are screwed (if archers whiff instantly remount and try again). Ganking doesnt prove anything and IMO archers ganks wayyyy better especially I can run away from throwing dismount (the ******** pre-attack and unknown delay time on throwing) but you can NOT run away from an true instant dismount from an archer if the archer is doing it right.

    But anyways I get your point you can gank someone with throwing, and archery can gank too so throwing is like archery... however undeniably throwing is way broken... Id LOVE to see you kill anyone with throwing along like how ALL archers can kill people with just archery and have zero (0) melee weapon skill in their template (try that -42hci on for size and I seriously doubt you have 92 HCI on your suit)
     
  21. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2008
    Messages:
    1,491
    Likes Received:
    66
    Honestly even if throwing worked like archery it wouldn't be nearly as effective without another weapon skill anyways. 3 weapons? Come on... the high damage one is a 4 second weapon. and you can only bump the SSI up to 30(weapon),5(ring),5(wing armor),10(chest plate) to equal 50 SSI and that'll give you a 1.5 second swing at 180+ stam.... and that's fitting all that garbage into your suit. You take 1 point of damage and you're back down to a 1.75 second swing... Who can't heal in between those swings lol seriously... It's an assist skill and nothing more.