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Devs: Ocllo?? REALLY??? What about Haven?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Basara, Mar 4, 2011.

?

What Should Happen to New Haven?

Poll closed Mar 11, 2011.
  1. Give us an Ocllo, to make Trammel little different from Fel

    7 vote(s)
    9.7%
  2. Leave New Haven as it is, minus the current NPE (And open up the locked out areas)

    12 vote(s)
    16.7%
  3. Restore Haven to how it was prior to the explosion (repairing the issues causing the redraw)

    37 vote(s)
    51.4%
  4. Remap the Old Haven onto an Ocllo landmass, with the old Haven landmarks restored.

    13 vote(s)
    18.1%
  5. Other (Reply Below)

    14 vote(s)
    19.4%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    I don't know if it's from some of the devs being from before the Tram/Fel split, or out of touch from spending so much time in Fel that they don't even know what a "Sampire" template is, but where did they get the idea for giving us OCLLO in Trammel, to replace New Haven? Maybe instead of drinking beer during the HoC, they were smoking something before it.

    Ocllo has NO history to speak of in Trammel. Even the earliest maps of Trammel have WATER where Ocllo was, as its Haven counterpart was shielded away from the world.

    Haven had only the most minor resemblences to Ocllo, and most of that was in terms of the farmland to the east and south.

    Haven had the ONLY Stonehenge-style standing stones, of the type the song CENTRAL to UO, "Stones", was about. (if "Battle on Stones" had been a variation of ANY other UO song, do you think anyone would have batted an eye, when it was used to advertise another game?)

    It's where most of the characters created between 2001 and 2007 were BORN, not even counting those created in New Haven.

    It DOES NOT MAKE SENSE to force a "New Ocllo" into Trammel, where one never existed. It effects, makes orphans of most of the characters in the game, by retroactively wiping our birthplace from the map.

    Let Your Voice be heard, to try to stop this travesty.
     
  2. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    I have to admit i am a little confused by this myself ! But i am going to wait for more details !
     
  3. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    BTW, the poll is multiple choice. You can choose more than one option if you like.

    Note also that Dev comments from the time of the event, through today, indicate that Haven WAS NOT supposed to have been the city blown up and replaced by a new NPE area (presumably, it would have been Magincia), had not KR/SA been delayed so long (then KR prematurely released while semi-functional).

    What led to Haven being the "recipient" of such honor was the Dev difficulty in isolating and fixing the rubberbanding and other terrain bugs in Haven's bank/keep area, as well as in the newbie training area west of the Moongate, and the devs at the time decided to redraw Haven AS the NPE area to kill two birds with one stone, to save time for working on KR & SA assets, since KR was running behind.
     
  4. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    I think they should make it back into the new player area that it once was.
     
  5. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    My opinion: Haven was a mistake in the first place. I never understood the reason for renaming Occlo in the first place just because it was Trammel, and I certainly wouldn't mind seeing that silly, megamorphing island become something solid again.

    Haven appeared without reason, has changed multiple times without reason, has never even had its "fiction" explored...

    I don't know... I won't miss Haven for Haven's sake.

    I do hope that whatever this new New Player experience is does a proper job of introducing people to the game... and does so in the context of the game itself.
     
  6. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    BURN IT !!!! :rant2:
     
  7. jaashua

    jaashua Guest

    I just want all this madness to stop. New Occlo, New Haven, New Magincia. I could not freaking care less. What a waste of dev time.

    Get the client beautified, get some new subscribers, and use the additional revenue from that to play Sim Fiefdom with the UO map for all I care.
     
  8. gonna have to merely harmonize ... a little off key, to be fair.
    (comon, >me< being against ... should push you over the top ... think on it)

    You want the "Classic Haven" back? :talktothehand:
    Likely they've lost the server map for the shape and layout of the classic.
    Not to mention "rewriting" the tutorial script, re-enabeling the basic AI's of the NPC's to "interact" with (re integrate the convo to re-re-place the "lists")

    No companions to seek out (not to mention booting the "allowed" veterans >back out< as they were allowed >in< AFTER the counselor debacle)

    and the "new instructors" ????

    nah ... I'm already an "Orphan" ... due to New haven ... and
    to be fair ... the history I've lived through since the early days ...
    Third dawn, Blackthorns revenge, Age of shadows, Samurai Empire, Mondains Legacy ... Stygian Abyss

    Now ... let us be fair ...
    there were no Ninja's, Elves or Gargoyles there in Old Haven
    Now ... they MUST be ... to be fair ... ya see?

    sorry ... but >at best< it can only be "Haven" in name only ...

    and "in name only " ... sorry, truely ...
    is insufficient for ME.

    *hands Don Quixote another lance*
    G'Luck sire ... *flinches* ouch! thats gotta be the last *sigh* nope ... *grabs another*...
     
  9. jaashua

    jaashua Guest

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Mapper

    Mapper Crazed Zealot
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    I questioned this too, Haven was gorgeous and a lot of my memories are from the bank and the little garden near by, I'd love to see it back.
     
  11. Minerva Foxglove

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    Old Haven was a great place . The pretty garden made roleplayers thrive there and the place was crowded and seemed welcoming and friendly. Occlo never existed in Trammel and every runebook , private or in libraries will need a makeower . Returning players will get confused.
    Why this all of a sudden? I need a good explanation and insurance the new idea will be smashing before I can ..maybe..feel happy about this.
    Im one that bank and shop and BOD collect etc in Haven since we were let in there. Mainly to keep an eye at the young and returning ppl, repair, answer questions but also to meet the nice and humble community there. Its actually a special bunch of people, atleast on Europa.:sad3:
     
  12. Obsidian

    Obsidian UO Forum Moderator
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    Before the creation of Trammel, Ocllo was among my favorite areas of the ancient world. The town was nice and I would do gentle adventuring/hide collection on the island. I never liked the iterations of Haven and would very much like to see Ocllo restored to the original version of the town. There was much more land on the old island which could be used for lots of early adventures for new players.

    -OBSIDIAN-
     
  13. Tinsil

    Tinsil Guest

    New Haven really isn't the problem.. Creating an all new area won't do much.
     
  14. R Traveler

    R Traveler Babbling Loonie
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    Wipe Haven from Trammel and recreate Old Haven at dedicated new players facet. Look recent developers videos about smaller client download and you'll get this option is best fit.
     
  15. Lord Raven

    Lord Raven Seasoned Veteran
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    I'm guessing that NPE described in the pool is the new player experience? The poll option for keeping New Haven as is, excluded the NPE so I'm against that (and selected "other").

    I recently created a new character and even though I didn't need to, I let the online tutorial guild me through the beginning steps and I think it's needed for new players. (And even returning vets who may be trying the Enhanced Client for the first time.)

    I did like the original Haven. In fact when I returned to the game, that is where I met many of the folks who are my friends today. I spent many hours "guarding the moongate" fighting off lizzies while I trained my new characters.

    The garden area was a nice social hangout and honestly I don't know why New Haven has to look like a fronteir town.
     
  16. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Perhaps this does not affect the poll, but I'm wondering if it really matters where the new player area is actually located if it is true that only freshly created characters will be allowed there.

    If that is going to be true, then perhaps the existing "New Haven" is going to stay in place and what will be created instead will be separate areas like we once had when you started a character with the ninja or samurai template. You walked through a scenario and when you were finished with that, there wasn't much point in sticking around the area and you left. It could be that all the devs are going to do is create a replacement to the new character scenario (don't know what else to call it) that you can go through when you create a new character using the enhanced client and maybe relocate or duplicate some of the training NPCs to that area. I guess if they do, it would be nice to fix some of the NPCs outside that area to let you buy up to 40 points of skill from them as well instead of the normal 33.0 (or whatever their max is).

    I can understand blocking off the very first location you go to so it is separate from the rest of the game. But I cannot really understand getting rid of an area like "New Haven" or "Old Haven" as a place where not-quite-fresh-out-of-the-box new characters hang around for a few hours, days, or weeks and can meet older characters.

    I think we need clarification on this issue and to also know what will become of the existing Haven. I'm sure I'm not the only person with characters that are logged out at the inn there on various shards for lack of a house because it is a mostly safe location. Many of those characters may be from temporarily closed accounts and holding stuff in their backpacks that would normally be stashed in a bankbox or house. I'm sure folks will not be happy if those characters are automatically relocated to a bank in another city that could be attacked at any time and that is where they "wake up" when the account is reactivated.
     
  17. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    I guess I missed that part. I thought they would simply start in Fel to get PVP experience shoved down their throat - or, be stripped of their 1k gold and all their possessions in the first 10mins of game play, how wonderful
     
  18. Adora

    Adora Guest

    I loved the original Haven, with its quests and overall experience. I don't know why the devs feel that they need to reinvent the wheel.
     
  19. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Take a look at the transcript on the UOJournal site. I didn't get to watch all of the live video and don't remember hearing about the restrictions on the recorded video either, but it's spelled out in the transcript near the end of part 2.

    March 1, 2011 UO Video House of Commons Transcript Part 2 | UOJournal.com
     
  20. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I have to admit I'm surprised changing Haven/New Haven it Ocllo is controversial.

    I could swear I've read many posts over the years calling for Ocllo in Trammel, complaining the explosion in Haven caused New Haven instead of Ocllo.

    Oh, I think someone asked why they were doing a new new player experience at all? Because the current one his horrid and teaches you hardly anything useful and sends you off with 50 in your skills and equipment you'll have a hard time surviving Despise in. (And Despise is the next likely location for a new player after New Haven Island.)

    I know people have called for a better new player experience, and done so recently too. Even if we only get 2 or 3 new players a month I would submit that a better new player experience is worth it.

    -Galen's player
     
  21. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    Thanks Tina, he wasn't quite verbally clear when he was scrambling for pen and paper.
    So they'll just have to leave Haven to get help then go back, not a big deal, but still.
    ME losing a city I can visit is awful - sometimes I go and just look, and reminiscence.
     
  22. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    Hey there adora :popcorn:

    reinventing the wheel gives you a nice job thats easy to do !

    some would find it boring...

    I even found a solution that re-enables the companions without legal issues... and noone will listen.

    go figure...
     
  23. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    Sink it.

    Or better yet...make it a whirlpool
     
  24. What do I think?

    Devs see it from a business standpoint.
    From a programmer standpoint.
    From an employee standpoint.



    We, on the other hand, see it from a "world we live/play in".
    A "world" we created, even tho we didnt program one single zero or one.
    A "world" we shaped, and continue to do so.


    To them, its a game, to us its wayyyy more!!


    Dear devs......hire a "lore manager".......Im available......and run your idiocy past me first....some of it, and you, gotta go, as some of it, and you dont seem to understand our "game"!
    A make over to revamp its uniqueness......sure!!
    A redo to make it "new" simply for newness's sake....oh h$** no!!
     
  25. Dellaney

    Dellaney Guest

    Occlo-Trammel would be a deathtown like Occlo-Fel or Bucs Deen.
    Absolutely no-go for Occlo in Trammel.
    Old Haven was a nice little city with a lot to explore.
    In my opinion it´s a good idea to drop the youngs from the new young zone to old Haven,to have contact with the first agressive monsters like ettins or veteran players.
     
  26. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    If I'm remembering correctly, I liked the new player area around the birth of Tram. it was a city, but not packed so full of crap that it looked horrible and was confusing.
     
  27. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    I REALLY wish we could name those "other shards" here. Because one of them has a noob island and their tutorial is AMAZING. It walks you through a dungeon crawl even. Takes you step by step through basic crafting, fighting, where to go, runebook, spells... everything. Even explains about housing a bit. Honestly, if EA copied what they did exactly, it would be the best thing EA ever did for this game. period.
     
  28. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    And I know you're imagining things. I've not seen even ONE person suggesting that Ocllo replace Haven before now, and I've been here on Stratics since AoS started (not actually posting until a couple months into it).

    I do agree that a new better NPE is needed - and, frankly, the old quests in old Haven worked a heck of a lot better than the New Haven NPCs. The only thing New Haven had comparable was for KR/EC started characters, and even it was a pale shadow of what one actually learned doing the Paladin quest for Uzzeran in Haven, or the Necro quest in Malas.
     
  29. Schuyler Bain

    Schuyler Bain Lore Master
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    Well, for me, I "grew up" on Ocllo (fel) and I was not pleased to see it turned into Haven in the first place. I am thrilled to hear it is being added back to the game where it belongs and may add another account just to place a small house there.

    *before someone chimes in with a snarky "go to Fel if you want Ocllo." I will say that they destroyed MY Ocllo with all the dead trees and tombstones. Now I get to have it back. Yeah me!
     
  30. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
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    Ha, I remember starting this game back in '98 when all they did was ask you to pick a random city and just dropped you off there with nothing but some clothes and a good luck. I'm starting to think new players would be better off left to their own devices than spoonfed and given baby steps to take. Put that development time and resources into advertising and I think there will be better results.

    I feel like an old timer telling his grandchildren he had to walk 15 miles through a frozen tundra to get to school every day and I'm only 26!
     
  31. WildWobble

    WildWobble Sage
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    Lets be honest here

    How many real young players have you seen in the last 5 years? Most i have seen are just vets with a new account! I say give us some void demons and another maginca style event Lets Turn New and Old Haven into Rubble and SINK the Island go back to the days where you can pick your starting town and include luna umbra tel-mur in that option. For any Real newb now days all they have to do is shout out in global chat to find out whats what and where to go for what.

    RUBBELIZE HAVEN!!
     
  32. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    Excepting, of course, that the Haven you're remembering is more like New Old Haven... Haven, when it first hit, was Occlo with a large marble house placed in the northwest right inside of guard protection. OLD Old Haven wasn't anything spectacular and didn't look any different from Old Occlo. Then they upgraded it a bit and turned it into newer Old Haven (this, of course, is when they also made the bridge that ran out into the middle of the water, and dynamically changed some of the map, and all that jazz). Then they got bored with New Old Haven, blew it up, huge chunks of the map changed, the bridge disappeared, et cetera ad nauseum, and made New Haven.

    *shrugs*

    Occlo was just fine as it was, and a bit silly to keep blowing that poor little place up just for the sake of an inconsistent new player experience. Better off blowing Haven to smithereens, letting Occlo come back, and creating a real New Player experience, IMO.
     
  33. Lady Michelle

    Lady Michelle Sprite Full SP
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    Um maybe the changes to Ocllo, and New Haven will be where the new pvp arenas will be placed.
     
  34. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Thats why am annoyed with most this dev group. They spend so much time in FEL and are left behind from the earlie days that they lost out of touch of what UO became and decided to destroy all the work done from after the trammel split and revert it to pre trammel game which was dying then and is dying now. Yet they still continue pushing the agenda on wondering what is happening when it's right in front of them. Argg.
     
  35. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    What I personally would do:

    1. New Player Experience elsewhere as currently planned.

    2. Restore the south part of Haven City's landmarks. Specifically, Uzzeran's keep (with a new master - the former owner would remain the dark knight), the bank, the fountains, the magic shop, and the huts on stilts. Also, restore the cemetary, the standing stones, and the ankh pyramid. Otherwise, the rest of the island on the surface could be patterned after Ocllo, for all I care (in fact, once you get out of those, most of the rest was a distorted version of Ocllo anyway). DON'T restore the south end of the old Haven island (that's where most of the bugs were), but restoring the southernmost island that was unique to Haven would be okay (in which case, a reworked version of the old bridge could go there from the far SW end of the island, and not go anywhere near the city itself).

    3. Characters would go from the new NPE to Haven as their first taste of the world outside.
    a. Restore and update the old "new" character quests as mid-range character quests to further immerse the new characters/players, and add more that would relate to the base templates that either came after AoS or didn't get any of the love. (the old level 0 maps were especially nice to get people interested in T-hunting). The unique items that come from the current NPE quests could be incorporated as quest rewards (Hesphaestus' hammer and Jacob's pickaxe into a reworked version of the old Blacksmith quest, for example)
    b. At the same time, restore and update the Necromancer quest in Malas, with the quest end resulting in their teleporting to Haven after completion.
    (This would, of course, require finding a new spot for the druid and horde minions on Haven, and for Horus and his cave outside Luna (more often than not, I killed the minions along the path to the treehouse, instead of traipsing down to the old mining/hunting area anyway)).
    c. The Haven arena would be the place for introducing new arrivals to PvP, without dumping them into the shark tank that is Fel to sink or swim.

    4. The Dark Knight and his quest could also be worked into this "mid-range experience" area, and opened up to everyone (and both clients). Most of the rest of New Haven would be gone, or relocated elsewhere (about the only thing I liked there was the porch that Elwood moved to, anyway - you could replace the old tavern with it, overlooking the water). That one bone knight special creature from the Old Haven ruins would move to the cemetary, and might become central to the end-game of the new quest chains.

    This kind of solution would fit most people's criteria, except those that profess a hatred of Haven as a false front for their hatred of Trammel.
     
  36. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    I found it extreemly ironic that one would compare UO economy with real world economy with inflation and whatnot...

    You critics are mostly clueless, they say they want to make an interesting storyline for players to be engaged with... and now from what I undertstand the actual true UO story, is PG-13...

    it has nothing to do with making UO like pretram days, they wanna make it feel right, they love it... let them try !

    There is no problem there... so try to be contructive and not insult the devs... they might not have a clue about what economy and fractional reserve banking are but then again most of the US dosen't either or you wouldn't all be experiencing an economic crisis.

    You cannot transpose trammel and trammel hatred like you would transpose a diapositive, it's a triplicite banner... you have to understand the seed, the basic casuality that caused it in the first place.

    Then perhaps you can insult both devs and companions like me at the same time without risking of being compared to the octopus ?

    1970 !!!

    Now if that dosen't make sense to you, you have never played in the world that is Ultima Online...
     
  37. Vermilea

    Vermilea Guest

    Restore Haven and restore Magincia,no need for other new towns without history in UO
     
  38. Ox AO

    Ox AO Grand Poobah
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    Other:

    Ocllo was the best design of them all. revert it back to the way it was


    Now why wasn't that on the poll?
     
  39. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    Ban anyone newer than 2003 and revert everything pre-AoS.
     
  40. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
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    I voted for everything so I could be as little help as possible.
    I've always wondered why the dev team doesn't just straight copy+paste some of the designs on freeshards. It's not like freeshards can sue if EA takes their ideas or code; EA's lawyers would just say "you're running an illegal freeshard that violates copyrights, patents, trademarks, and the Geneva Conventions, and as such have no legal standing to even think about suing us," and then they'd sue the freeshard back into the Stone Age.
     
  41. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    Cog come back to IRC
     
  42. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    I agree, it would make the small dev teams jobs a billion times easier. Why make a new haven and all of that? just steal what that shards does and it will appear as if a team of 30 people worked on it.
     
  43. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    The code is very much different, I know firsthand...

    they'd have to also use the emulator which would make them very vulnerable to hacking (since some peoleple have server source)...

    Well ironically I think there would be less hacking if they did that, the code is clearly cleaner and is easier to seal hermetically...
     
  44. Dellaney

    Dellaney Guest

    Occlo in fel is a boring ghosttown,i hope they dont copy it to trammel.
    In my opinion Old Haven is a much better option.