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DEVS Please change discord to flag grey when used on pets.

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Guest, Mar 2, 2008.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Ok so I'm standing in the guard zone with my pets deciding which of the 7 reds there I would flag too, Next thing ya know I have a blue standing by me discording my pets.

    I do know that bards arn't the greatest build for pvp but come on. If a blue can discord my blue pets without going grey I do not think that is fair.

    Its a massive cripple as a pvp tamer to have your pets discorded and when you cant fight against it without getting a murder count its very very unbalanced and unfair. Ok theres my vent for the week [​IMG] .
     
  2. Smokin

    Smokin Guest

    So when you go train your pet with discord will you still complain.
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Not everyone uses the fast easy way to train their pets. I for one have never disco trained any of mine.

    What I'm saying, for those who have difficulty understanding simple things is..... You should not be able to discord someone else's pets without flagging grey and/or combat on yourself. Its that simple.
    It is not a beneficial thing and should flag you like any other non beneficial thing does.
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    So when you go train your pet with discord will you still complain.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    This has proven not to work. The only advantage it gives is if the target creature you are fighting has skills to low for your pet to gain.
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    So when you go train your pet with discord will you still complain.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    This has proven not to work. The only advantage it gives is if the target creature you are fighting has skills to low for your pet to gain.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    Wrong. Specially for training Cu's healing above 90. You can GM your cu's healing by discording it while it attacks a shadow ele.
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    My request doesn't have anything to do with the ability to discord your own pet, or a guild mates.. just in pvp. It should flag ya and initiate combat.
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Wrong. Specially for training Cu's healing above 90. You can GM your cu's healing by discording it while it attacks a shadow ele.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    It might affect the chance to gain, but the pace does not quicken by having your pet under the effects of discordance.
     
  8. A non-guildie/ally discording someone's pet should clearly count as an attack for all flagging and crim purposes. The Tram side behavior of this already works right (one cannot discord a non-guildie's pet at all) but the Fel side isn't set for it now, it sounds like.
     
  9. Eat my dust!!!







    This is some sort of a joke post no?
    You just CANNOT be for real posting this.

    I wanna play along.
    Ok, so....if you and your big bad dragon sit in a guard zone for more than 3 seconds deciding which red to flag on cause your afraid of my big bad blue bard, you flag grey AND become peaceable, disco-able and provoke-able (ill voke your dwag on you!!)!!
    Yeah......I think I like this!!

    Devs, pwease make it so!!!
     
  10. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
    Stratics Veteran

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    If this is implimented,when a tamer discords their own pet for training purposes,the pet should see that as an agressive act and respond accordingly.
     
  11. Discord training works well to solve certain problem pet training situations (this is kinda well-known)...

    I'm seeing that pets gain slower at higher skill levels and it may turn over in even increments of 10 skill points. At least this is how it looks at the 89.9 to 90.0 skill boundry.

    The gain rate of healing (cu sidhes) above 90 seems pretty rough, it's as though to gain at this level they need to cure poison over and over or perhaps they don't get gains at all.

    With discord, it lower's the pet's skills and then it gets to utilize the gain rate of that lower skill range. You don't get the mathematical percentage boost from being at a lower percentage though and then returning to an un-discorded state. Meaning like, if you take a pet that's GM in something and discord it, you'll see a certain, lowered skill value as a result. If you take a non-GM pet and discord it and then work it while discorded up to that same skill level that the discorded GM pet is at, and then undiscord the non-GM pet, you don't get a sudden jump up to GM. It's kinda point-for-point change, not a percentage change.

    In application it can work very well when you have a pet that you want to have move better at the higher skill levels, but one has to watch out when training melee pets that you don't decrease their wrestling to where it doesn't have good enough hit chance to hit often enough to gain well. Being able to hit (as opposed with missing) in itself increases the overall gain chances, so discording in the wrong situation can mess up melee-related gains.

    As everybody who does it knows, it's helpful for healing on cu sidhes above 90 and it can be helpful with magic resist.

    I don't know what it's application will be for the new dragons. Wrestling and tactics seem to go up fine, anatomy's slow, they give you the magery for free (thank god). Anatomy and resist come to mind as possible resist training candidates, and maybe eval. Not sure how it will pan out.
     
  12. <blockquote><hr>

    If this is implimented,when a tamer discords their own pet for training purposes,the pet should see that as an agressive act and respond accordingly.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes actually I think that might be a consequence of implementing it. Hopefully invissing the discorder will take care of it (well assuming the dragon doesnt spam reveal and kick his ass anyway).
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Eat my dust!!!







    This is some sort of a joke post no?
    You just CANNOT be for real posting this.

    I wanna play along.
    Ok, so....if you and your big bad dragon sit in a guard zone for more than 3 seconds deciding which red to flag on cause your afraid of my big bad blue bard, you flag grey AND become peaceable, disco-able and provoke-able (ill voke your dwag on you!!)!!
    Yeah......I think I like this!!

    Devs, pwease make it so!!!

    [/ QUOTE ]


    I guess you missed they part where I said I was blue... never flagged... And no not a draggy but two bakes.. and the bard was blue.. never flagged. And just stood next to me peacefully discording my pets with no negative penalty to him.
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Sounds to me as if the bard skills are set up perfectly.

    You expected you could sit in the GZ and pick reds off, and they had the sense to call in a bard to get rid of you. Just recall out of the bard's way and PvP elsewhere - problem solved.

    Having seen a tamer similar to yourself take out 8 reds, none of which could attack him because he was GZ hugging, it is essential that the bards can come in and stop noto tamers.

    Wenchy
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Having seen a tamer similar to yourself take out 8 reds, none of which could attack him because he was GZ hugging, it is essential that the bards can come in and stop noto tamers.

    [/ QUOTE ]Not only essential, I see it as my duty.

    La!
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    LOL, me too :p

    Wenchy
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Nico-oh-oh-oh (echoes)...

    Coming to a Yew gate near you [​IMG]

    Fear the harp! [​IMG]

    La!
     
  18. Discording a pet is far more damaging than casting a debuffing spell on it. It certainly should be treated as a hostile action.
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Discording a pet is far more damaging than casting a debuffing spell on it. It certainly should be treated as a hostile action.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    My point exactly.
     
  20. I don't think one should consider at a gate for deciding if somthing should be changed. Gate PvP is by far something that should not be take ans a model.

    Furthermore, I think one should see a message like : "you notice xxxxx trying to discord [petname]". It happens a lot at spawns like Oaks when red guilds, after failing miserably their raid, come with blue characters and bards. If someone discords a pet, I want to know who in order to kill him/her.
     
  21. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Having seen a tamer similar to yourself take out 8 reds, none of which could attack him because he was GZ hugging, it is essential that the bards can come in and stop noto tamers.

    Wenchy

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Odd, seeings how if you attack a red first you cannot call guards on them... Sounds like the 8 reds didn't have their morning coffee. They should have waited for him to say all kill on them, then the war would be on without fear of guards... no?
     
  22. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    I don't think one should consider at a gate for deciding if somthing should be changed. Gate PvP is by far something that should not be take ans a model.

    Furthermore, I think one should see a message like : "you notice xxxxx trying to discord [petname]". It happens a lot at spawns like Oaks when red guilds, after failing miserably their raid, come with blue characters and bards. If someone discords a pet, I want to know who in order to kill him/her.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The "you notice xxx trying to" message comes with provo not discord. at least I never ever saw a discord message ever. And I shouldn't have to go red killing a fellow blue doing a hostile action to my pets. It makes no sense.

    I don't hang at the gate all day either. But when its just me and 7 reds hrm whats the logical thing to do? Run in the middle and shake their hands and pat their backs as they spit on me and act like UO Gods for the gank? Yea yea I see your point...
     
  23. I agree that discord and target peace should flag you as an aggressor. They don't need to trigger auto-defend, but they should definitely flag you as aggressor. Being able to discord people's pets in town feels a lot like an exploit.
     
  24. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I'll explain a bit more...

    If tamer is blue, they can sit in the GZ and set pets on the reds around them. Now the red attacked can respond, but say his fellow reds wanted to gank the tamer (as they most certainly would outside the GZ), they'll get guard whacked.

    Now personally, I suspect some of the reds were afk when I witnessed this, but a GZ hugging tamer IMO deserves the attention of a disco bard.

    If you want to complain about bards, wait till the tamer nerfs are in. Because hopefully there will be fewer gimp tamers, they will be much less powerful and thus bards won't be so essential if the tamers are easier kills. Fel bards won't be extinct, but much less necessary. I hope.

    Wenchy
     
  25. Discording a pet as a blue just to prevent or hinder the pet from effectivly attacking ANYONE is agressive. Same as Area Peacing. A Blue can sit near any number of players in ANY location and peace or discord the pets. Now true out of guard zone the bard is subject to being attacked but the POINT is in guard zone the Blue bard stands there and there is NO way to eliminate the problem as attacking them gets you guard whacked. Simple to the point.

    Now as for a tamer attacking ONE red out of a pile of them in a city is perfectrly how it was designed. If reds could run around anywere and kill everyone we would be on Seige? If that is how oyu feel you should be able ot play go there.

    If not then expect to get attacked while in guard zone. If you cannot take out the tamer or run away from the pet then you deserve to die.

    Bable was not whining just trying to level the playing field against a obvious desparity.
     
  26. <blockquote><hr>

    Sounds to me as if the bard skills are set up perfectly.


    You expected you could sit in the GZ and pick reds off, and they had the sense to call in a bard to get rid of you. Just recall out of the bard's way and PvP elsewhere - problem solved.

    Having seen a tamer similar to yourself take out 8 reds, none of which could attack him because he was GZ hugging, it is essential that the bards can come in and stop noto tamers.

    Wenchy

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I agree that the guard hugging lame tamers are in most cases exactly that - lame.

    Far from being a little, protected piece of land for innocent blues that might be wandering about, little splotches of guard zone largely function as a hole-up for losers who want an unfair advantage over those around them. They maintain blue notoriety and hang around at the edges of guard zone spamming 'guards' within their combat macros, trying every trick they can think of to get a usually-unwarranted guard kill on some red they enticed to come fight. Buggy flagging and other difficulties with guard zone implementation mostly work to their benefit and they know it, and they milk it for all the laughs it's worth. It's a lose-lose situation for reds to be near little splotches of guard zone and the more careful ones keep their distance.

    I feel that barding not flagging sensically should be fixed, but at the same time, the problems Wenchy is describing with lame gate-huggers are real and seem to have at least equal priority. Fixing the broken underlying system sounds like the best way to handle it. Then, the barding flagging sensically would be a non-issue in terms of balance.
     
  27. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    Discord no longer gives accelerated gains.. sorta changed that when they fixed saytrs (you can still gain, but not go from 95-GM lockpicking in 30 minutes anymore.. takes several hours+). You still gain at the same rate as your real; but can gain off easier stuff (down to your new skill level)
     
  28. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    It still does not give faster gains... only lets them gain at their new lower level.
     
  29. Sneaky Que

    Sneaky Que Babbling Loonie
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    <blockquote><hr>

    Ok so I'm standing in the guard zone with my pets...

    [/ QUOTE ]

    *disgusted*

    [​IMG]

    Do agree that Disco should flag though.
     
  30. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    .... lowering a pet's resist and skills by 1/3 should be a criminal act. If I curse you (to lower your resist to say 60 instead of 70) that's criminal. And discord lower's resist more than that AND skills.... a dragon with 70 wrestling has a lot of trouble hitting a target.

    Dragons in PvP might be unbalanced to an extent.... but discording with no recoil/backlash is even more unbalanced and un fair.
     
  31. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    <blockquote><hr>

    it gets to utilize the gain rate of that lower skill range

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Wrong. Go test... Changed when they "fixed" the satyr gaining.
     
  32. <blockquote><hr>




    This is actually getting quite funny now, PvPers call for overpowered tamers to be nerfed, some tamers insist they have a right to be overpowered, suggesting that it's the fault of PvPers who can't adapt tactics to fight them. Bards are called in by PvPers to fight the tamers, and what do the PvP tamers do? They complain bitterly and cry for a nerf. And to think, some of them were probably accusing the PvPers of crying nerf hastily lol.

    I also suggest, that if you're in a GZ and a bard plays with your pets, the problem is very easy to solve. It's called recall.

    Wenchy

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Against each tactic there should be a counter. Here there is no counter : it is game over. And if there are more blues, you don't even know who is doing it. Tbh, if the problem was only limited to gate fights, I wouldn't bother as you can't call PvP what happens around gates : it is all about blues staying in GZ vs reds house runners.

    Btw, having a discorder isn't probably going to work against the new dragons as they have a very high barding difficulty and they are not slayer sensitive once tamed (as I read here on stratics).
     
  33. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I bet some of these anti tamer people would be screaming a different tune if tamer/mage skill combo allowed you to run around and cast curse among other debuffing affects on people and did not get flagged or initiate combat...

    Seriously.. its the same thing.
     
  34. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I'm not anti tamer... I have 6 tamers lol.

    But I accept that sometimes my pets will die in PvP. Just as I know sometimes PvM encounters go wrong too. I take it on the chin. At least now a pet death doesn't mean I'm off to tame a replacement.

    And once the pet ball issues are fixed, there will be far fewer PvPers swapping to bards, when their main PvP char can face the tamer. So, to call for a nerf to bards now, is a bit silly. Tamers have been gimping up in PvP and made trouble for themselves. Once that is fixed, I'd suggest waiting a while and then seeing how many bards you meet in PvP fights.

    Wenchy
     
  35. Sakkarah

    Sakkarah UO Legend
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    I believe the whole flagging system needs to be reviewed. Discording a blue pet (unprovoked) should definitely flag the bard as agressor as this is definitely an attack against you and your pet. But the same applies to blue healers in guard zone healing another blue trying to noto pk.

    You were upset your pet got discorded by a blue and there was nothing you could do about it, but it would have been just as lame for you to sic your pet on a red and have that blue heal you or your pet instead with the red not being able to do anything about your healer.
     
  36. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I agree with both things you've said, Sakkarah.

    I don't see anything wrong with Mrs Babble's request, that a blue player will turned grey when performing negative acts (discording) upon her blue pet.

    I'm not really sure why people are arguing this...it's not a 'nerf' to bards or the Discord skill...just the way the system should work, in all cases. You should not be able to perform any negative act, or beneficial act on an agressor, and not become an flagged an agressor yourself.
     
  37. Guest

    Guest Guest

    It is a nerf. I don't do 1 hp of damage to a tamed pet. It's not my fault if the tamer then sets their pet to attack someone...

    I'm not going to try explaining why I dislike this craziness any more than this: Certain GZ hugging tamers and their free roaming gimp relatives don't deserve protection of any sort, any more than the other GZ huggers and gimps do. A minority of tamers are already requiring a nerf which will affect many "considerate" tamers and here again, similar tamers are calling for a nerf to yet more players who are using the barding skills to combat their gimpishness.

    It's also pretty futile to flag bards, because all we need is an instrument. Slap on some blessed armour, personal bless instrument and we're hardly risking much [​IMG] So you'd fix nothing.

    It might also bring new, fun issues of players getting looting rights after discoing mobs in dungeons. It flags aggressor, and some bards have asked for looting rights *shrugs* Personally that's one big reason to block that nerf, because the irritation factor will be overwhelming. But you bet some bards will ask for it.

    There could also be some interesting problems cropping up with tamers going to disco pets in a GZ before blue pet training and finding themselves guardwhacked. Again, not connected to the main "issue" yet affected.

    Either way, I'll flag yellow with green spots if I want to disco a gimp's pets, and you can bet the PvPers swapping into their bards aren't going to worry about flagging enough to stop either.

    So as fixes go, it's silly and futile.

    Wenchy
     
  38. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I guess I just figured that the system for flagging would work the same in all situations. *laughs*
    Now *why* I thought these flagging rules would be universal...I don't know, seeing some of the other things that go on in this game, hehe.
     
  39. Guest

    Guest Guest

    UO has it's own logic which defies the logic of it's players and the devs too lol.

    Things can seem easy to fix, but without knowing how they're coded, it's possible to break something else connected to the first thing. I could be (and often am) talking nonsense, but I'm sure I remember someone mentioning aggressor flagging giving looting rights. I remember when peace was all the rage and you couldn't kill a drag in Destard under your own steam no matter how hard you tried [​IMG] The thought of being that ashamed of my disco gals... *shudder*

    I think we can all remember little quirks where EA fixed one thing and something totally different broke. I blame cross-eyed coders...possibly with more than 2 eyes...

    Wenchy
     
  40. Al Thorin

    Al Thorin Guest

    Blue or not, GZ or not, disco/peace should be a agressive action against a tamer.

    First, -anyone- fighting at or around a GZ, blue or red, should just stop playing. What does anyone expect to happen at a GZ? Sorry, but those 7 reds didn't need to be there either.

    2nd, bards should follow the same rules as everyone else, regardless of wether their target is the universaly hated tamer.

    People whine and complain about fair and balanced all the time, yet the moment someone asks to have something that's unfair to a tamer fixed, it's not ok!
     
  41. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    People whine and complain about fair and balanced all the time, yet the moment someone asks to have something that's unfair to a tamer fixed, it's not ok!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It's not unfair, it's a very legit tactic to deal with a GZ hugger. PvP tamers cry out "adapt! learn tactics!" and then "woe be me" when someone does. There is absolutely nothing stopping said tamer from moving on elsewhere if they feel intimidated by a li'l bard. And most importantly, EA have much more important issues to deal with than a handful of tamers who think Yew gate camping = PvP.

    Flagging aggressor won't fix the issue in proper PvP combat, a PvPer's bard will not care about flagging grey.

    It is likely to cause legit bard tamers to curse the "fix" when they get guard whacked for discoing their own pets.

    I'm not repeating earlier posts all over again, but this won't stop bards discoing, so it's a stupid fix which accomplishes nothing.

    Wenchy
     
  42. Guest

    Guest Guest

    You are stuck on this whole guard zone idea, but this injures tamers anywhere in fel. I pointed out one time that upset me that day, But how about when I was trying to find a good draggy to tame in fel? Using cu to kill off some of the ones with poor stats, again here comes a bard discording my cu.

    Took everything I had to keep him alive and again I cant kill this guy without going red. Its a grief tactic plane and simple. Ok so I move somewhere else, invis him, w/e but it doesn't change the fact that this is fel.. and if someone is doing damaging things to you or your pet, by fel rules you should be able to counter it without being considered a murderer or criminal.
     
  43. Guest

    Guest Guest

    As I've said several times, flagging grey won't stop a griefer or anyone combating your pets. Which is one of the main reasons I think this is a silly fix, as it won't fix a whole lot. It's just a further annoyance for bards, some of us discoing the worst tamers for very good reason right now.

    BTW if someone discos your pup, invis and mount it. Better still hide and mount it.

    Wenchy
     
  44. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Flagging grey will not stop them no.. BUT Like I have said many times... Flagging grey will allow me to kill him without going red. What is so hard to understand about that.
    I am a fel player for the most part and have decided to stay blue on my tamer. If someone wants to mess with and or attack me then I want the chance to kill them.
     
  45. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I understand you perfectly, I just don't agree with you.

    Wenchy