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Devs: Shard Shield Balance Suggestion

Discussion in 'UHall' started by xxrod17xx, Aug 30, 2013.

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  1. xxrod17xx

    xxrod17xx Adventurer

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    Ok, I think we all agree those things are freaking awesome and we all want them, and I'm over 9 years away so I got no shot at it any time soon.

    How I understand they work like this:
    Put them in house-once a month they spawn a token for that specific shard.

    Why can't the 14+ year vets just sell these tokens, it will be on par with the trend you are going with all the vet rewards in the future. You can pick them with your veteran status, but you can use them...thoughts?

    Edit: So shield is account bound, tokens are simply transfers to specific shards
    Edit2: as soon as I hit post, they make so much of transfer tokens they will never ever go for this though right?
     
    #1 xxrod17xx, Aug 30, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
  2. MissEcho

    MissEcho Slightly Crazed
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    The most unbalancing item ever introduced to UO
     
  3. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    this would take away revenue from the uo store. it would also discourage cross shard trading, as currently most people have more tokens than they use, and offer free or low cost transfers for items with the extras. The only way i could see this being available to non vets is as a uo store item for the shield. with a very generalized calculation of price, i think they would have to be around $250 in order for the store to not lose profit off transfers.
     
  4. Veritas et Sapientia

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    By a landslide...
     
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  5. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    OI VEY
    PETRA.....................
    Mod .......................
    someone in charge....
    Taylor!!!
    They want to restart that range war.......
    I have had my fill of this "I want what you got routine!!!!"
    Please put a sock in it before it gets ugly....:twak:
     
  6. xxrod17xx

    xxrod17xx Adventurer

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    yea sorry i knew it was a mistake the second I posted it.
     
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  7. THP

    THP Stratics Legend
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    Definate
     
  8. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Yeah...tis ok, it's late :p (at least where I am).
     
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  9. Garrett.

    Garrett. Journeyman

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    Yeah because vets that have paid to keep the game going for 14 years don't deserve a special thanks by allowing them to travel around the different shards without having to pay 29:99 for the privilege? What utter nonsense that the SS are unblancing - It's not like it gives an advantage to PVM or PVP, now does it?
     
  10. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Ugh, maybe you need to read what the OP was proposing so you can understand what that reply was actually referring too...
     
    #10 Viper09, Aug 30, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
  11. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    Would you like to explain to me why its so unbalanced? I just don't understand what imbalance it makes
     
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  12. THP

    THP Stratics Legend
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    A huge landslide at that....!!!
     
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  13. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Well since I don't use them being a siege player I can't speak from experience (I don't know what kind of benefit you get shard hopping directly), but I imagine the whole huffuffle is not so much an imbalance but a HUGE benefit ($30 worth) because of their usefulness and large appeal . They seemed to understand that soulstones were the same kind of item and made them first year. There was no way this kind of item wouldn't cause a lot of bad feelings in the playerbase. Someone along the line forgot that making vet rewards highly functional rather than cosmetic makes a lot of people angry.
     
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  14. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    Its not an imbalance then its greed! You have and I want syndrome. I have one account that has 5 of them, then I have 3 accounts which are not old enough, I except that. I can also except that people who have been more loyal get better things. If you show your loyalty long enough you too will get the same reward. I get the same thing from my phone company, the longer im with them the more rewards i get, same system works with employers, the longer you have worked for them, the more you get in bonus or when you retire.

    So its not an imbalance, its You have something and I want it syndrome
     
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  15. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I don't have "I want it syndrome" I am a 15 year vet. I have access to these things and I think its better for the health of the game that EVERYONE have access to them than that I should feel special... Just like I have previously pushed for rubble items to be accessible in game, even though I have one of the largest rubble collections on my shard. It's better for the game, even if its not as good for ME personally. Thats why I support the idea of allowing people of any age to use any vet rewards.

    But to be more to the point it's the fault of the game designers for making this poor choice. They should have known that it would create animosity between players. Just like they clearly knew that if they made soulstones a 7-10 year vet pick it would have made everyone angry, so they made it a first year pick. If they absolutely must add in vet rewards with such massively high functionality they should make them usable by everyone or put them on year one.

    A glowing fireworks shooting robe is one thing... but an item that gives you a monthly $30 value token is another. I personally don't think vet rewards should be anything other than cosmetic.
     
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  16. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    As some have said, it Does give a huge advantage in pvm and pvp. mainy the ease of doing, or avoiding both. I know when i get my shields in about 6 months, i will most likely never solo a pvp area spawn on my home shard of atlantic ever again. ill just keep sampires on a couple dead shards.

    You could look at this the other way of course, that if more and more people do this with "Dead" shards, those shards may become not so dead.
     
  17. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    Well, too late to go back. if a non-vet shield shard were offered it would have to be "lesser" something like you could use it, but could only transfer say 30 items at a time. Maybe the 16th vet reward will be less controversial. I dont think anyone could argue with an Ethereal Drake mount :)
     
  18. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    #18 Winker, Aug 30, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
  19. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Well having not had them available for a long time to myself either I understand the feeling however I have friends with them and have had friends with them since they came out and more often than not when they are going back and forth shard to shard with them they have let me know and I've been able to send things to or from other shards.... so I guess it hasn't felt "unbalancing" to me. That's part of being in a nice community I guess. Friends doing things for Friends.
     
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  20. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    Personally I think the unbalancing feature of the shield is related to the economy. The ability to buy low or farm on a slow server and sell high on a busy server with no overhead cost is a huge advantage. Anyone who argues otherwise is fooling themselves.

    Transfer tokens should be about moving a character and some personal belongings. I am fine with shard shields in this regard. My solution is a global economy. My hope us that with the vendor search we get a means to buy and sell across all servers. Then people can play on the shard they want to live on... not where they can find buyers for their wares. If that were to happen the shard shields would retain their value for moving a character for vets and the rest of us could still purchase a token if we want to move a character... Nice reward without being unbalancing.
     
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  21. Tazar

    Tazar Guest

    I don't think I am fooling myself... and I don't see the big advantage. I have several of the shard shields... and at least 9 out of 10 transfers that I do is moving stuff for friends and others free of charge. Most of the time I am not even moving something for myself. So who is really benefiting?
     
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  22. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    Yup, my entire guild has been able to move to Atlantic using my shields I moved all their suits for a new character and all the stuff needed to PvP with some cash to get them by. So an entire guild has benefited from one member having a account old enough to help everyone out.

    And yes I do use mine to PvM on the quitter shards and then take my goodies to Atlantic to sell, but I also bring the gold back home to my home shard and spend the cash I made. So it works in roundabouts, one shards gets the items another shard get the gold!

    This type of shard jumping brings life to every shard.
     
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  23. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    Just because it is possible to use a shard shield without causing the imbalance does not negate the fact that they can be used to cause an imbalance. If you are moving items for friends for the purpose of buying and selling then the token is causing an imbalance whether it is for you or your friends because it moves items with no overhead... a feature most who still play have to pay for.

    Just like in business, transportation costs of goods are part of commerce. If the government selects certain businesses and subsidizes their transportation cost it creates a competitive advantage.
     
  24. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    If free and easy movement between shards is as great of a benefit as you propose, then why not just make it available across the board? If it has been such a boon for 1 guild just imagine how great it would be if everyone could do it.
     
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  25. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    Because its a Vet reward, the hint is in the word "Vet" Its just like saying every noob account should be able to access and conquer the end games bosses with out having to work there character up to that level
     
  26. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    I never said they weren't a vet reward.... I said they are a vet reward that creates imbalance.

    Your position would seem to be that you agree they cause imbalance but that's ok because the vets have earned it. That is an opinion that you are entitled to, which is fine with me. However I disagree with it.
     
    #26 Merus, Aug 30, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
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  27. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    "You have and I want syndrome."
    "So its not an imbalance, its You have something and I want it syndrome"

    Uh huh. Even if not, you can understand why I would think, that in a direct response to me you used "you" multiple times, and did not seem to be speaking generally.

    And as a result of implementing that feature (ie fault) there is animosity in the playerbase. And I never claimed you were angry, I even used the word everyone, as to be general, as clearly there are a lot of people who annoyed by this item. Saying many or some would have probably been more accurate to what I was trying to say.
    Clearly you aren't mad about it since you are calling people who don't like it greedy, and I was simply just expressing/explaining my feelings on it, after you accused me of being so.

    Of course you are free to have any opinion you want, as I am equally free to disagree with you, I never suggested otherwise.
    Its not JUST based around money, its based around the not pointlessly causing a divide between players for no good reason.

    The difference between a phone company (and my phone company sure doesn't do anything like that, sadly) and UO is that UO is a game and the whole purpose of that game is for people to have fun. So in my opinion giving people a real tangible advantage simply because they have been around for a long time is a bad choice in that vein. UNLESS they are able to share those items with everyone. Then it wouldn't be such a big deal.

    To me its simply an issue of form vs function. Like I said if you want to reward long term customers with items to show them you appreciate them then at least make them decorative so that the feelings of being left out aren't so strong.

    The seed sorting box, and Davy Jones locker are other vet rewards I really hate. The have valuable highly desirable and regularly asked for and features yet they chose to lock them up in the vet reward system rather than make them available to everyone to make the game better. I simply don't see how it makes the game better to do these sorts of things.

    If it were up to me the age plateaus would be taken off of vet rewards altogether, vets would get the benefit of having more picks over time, and no one would feel pointlessly left behind.
     
    #27 Uvtha, Aug 30, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
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  28. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Except that vet rewards don't require work/skill/experience. They just require money over time. It's not really the same thing.
     
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  29. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    Nope I don't agree they cause an imbalance, they are a perk of being a 14 year loyal VET
     
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  30. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Well you COULD be charging people. That option is available to you, even if you don't avail yourself to it. And you simply have the advantage of being able to do those things at all, which is clearly a valuable thing to be able to do.

    That along with all of the other benefits previously mentioned.
     
    #30 Uvtha, Aug 30, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
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  31. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    But does the virtue of it being a vet "perk" preclude any possibility of an imbalance?
     
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  32. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    #32 Winker, Aug 30, 2013
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  33. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    No if everyone sticks around long enough they too will earn the same reward.
     
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  34. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    I don't have shields, won't for another 8 months..don't do a ton of cross shard trading/buying..doubt I ever will! They are only imbalanced because "you" want to do free trading/buying! That is all! They do not, nor have they ever impacted my play, not should they. You want to PvP on atl..move a toon. You want to PvM on Sonoma? Move a toon! 14 yr vets are exactly that..14yr vets..they paid for 14 years. Weather they bought the account or not is irrelevant. If you feel it's unfair they bought an account to use those rewards. Oh well! You go buy one if your so unhappy with your current age..they were implemented for a reason.."A REWARD"..now with that being said I am all for a 14 yr vet being able to turn around and sell that reward to any aged account..I'll fight for that. But definitely not for making them available prior to the year reached..
     
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  35. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    You have no clue what the word imbalance means and trying to use government subsidy as an analogy proves that.

    If you and your 'have not' friends were not so consumed by the fact that there is something in the game you cannot have you would understand what I am trying to say. I truly feel sorry for you.

    From what I have seen in all of the shield posts all of the whiners complaining about shard shields are already very wealthy vets that want to do nothing other then greedily amass more wealth by shard hopping and re-selling. That's what UO needs more of lol. Bravo!

    If you were actually a 15 or 16 year vet like myself you would have no need to do that and would instead just enjoy using the shields for an occasional new pvp or pvm experience.

    *shakes head*
     
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  36. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    Artificially removing the transportation costs associated with the selling of goods for a select minority of a population causes an economic imbalance... It is basic economics. The fact that it may also produce some minor side benefits does not negate the imbalance if produces.
     
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  37. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    1) You covet rubble. That's great and to each his own. But saying more access to rubble is healthier for the game is just ludicrous.

    2) Trying to compare soulstones to shard shields is just plain naive. Soulstones give a clear and individual competitive advantage in pvp and pvm. Shard shields do not. No comparison
     
  38. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    You obviously don't pvp.

    Sc minus 15 mage weps are without a doubt the most unbalancing item ever introduced into the game.

    But they will never go away since 95% of todays mages have no real clue how to pvp and would be lost without them lol.
     
  39. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    And if the game closes down before they get there? Thats x years that everyone could have been benefiting.
     
    #39 Uvtha, Aug 30, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
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  40. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Out of curiosity why do you always call for threads to get closed? The conversation has been perfectly... well, reasonably civil.

    It's ok if we disagree, so long as people are being respectful about it.
     
    #40 Uvtha, Aug 30, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
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  41. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    Then the game would cease to exist on OSI servers..so who cares at that point?
     
  42. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    That's easy friend..tank mages? Parry mages? time to conjur up my staff of the magi again!

    Well if parry mages weren't so useless on the DPS scale that is..
     
  43. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    My point is that I would wager that a large group of players will never have the chance to get these items (as it is today), because they didn't start 14 years before the game closes down. He seemed to be suggesting that there was no imbalance as long as eventually everyone had access to the items.

    IMO, If you allow people to use any year vet rewards then the potential inequity is drastically lessened, and a larger amount of people benefit from items like these, vets still get a distinct bonus ,and the game is better overall.
     
    #43 Uvtha, Aug 30, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
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  44. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    The example you're using demonstrates you know nothing about "basic economics." This isn't just some group arbitrarily chosen. Vets are a group that paid far more into the game and are getting something back for it.

    It's costs at least $1680 to get to 14 years. As I've pointed out, someone with a 5-year account could do a couple dozen round trips with paid tokens (and those allow fully loaded pack animals). So to make your analogy accurate, it's a government eliminating a toll, with weight restrictions, on long-term taxpayers.
     
  45. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    It isn't going to happen with transfer tokens, though, because they are a revenue generator.
     
  46. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Well I mean allowing anyone to use the shields wouldn't change things. The same number of "free" tokens would be getting generated, as you would still need a 14 year vet to pick one and sell/give it.

    But thats why I wouldn't have made this item in the first place.
     
    #46 Uvtha, Aug 30, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
  47. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    Either way it creates an economic advantage. Whether you want to justify it is another matter, but the advantage still exists.
     
  48. Lord X

    Lord X Sage
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    I think you may need to read the OP again, tbh. Other ppl may of said what you think he is replying to but the OP didnt.

    Its X years that they couldve been paying and supporting the game too. Hand in hand.

    Out of my 3 main accounts only one has access to SS and the others prob wont ever reach it.. . It happens.
     
    #48 Lord X, Aug 30, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
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  49. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I assume they would be playing/paying either way. I just think it would be more positive if everyone had at least a chance to enjoy these items while the game is still going. Stuff like that DOES happen, but theres no reason not to want to prevent them from happening if you can.
     
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  50. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    IF you could ALL PLEASE manage to keep this conversation CIVIL and refrain from launching scathing personal attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with your point of view we might manage to keep this thread open.

    I will clean this up, without issuing infraction points. If your post is gone, think about what you said in it and who you attacked. If you didn't attack anyone, then it was removed because you quoted someone that did.

    Unfounded allegations of corruption and other wild conspiracy theories WILL be removed. Decisions on post removal, thread lock and other forum management actions will be the decision of the forums moderators or adminstrators. We are not taking instructions and we are not working to democratic vote.
     
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