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DEVS: Simplify Bods Proposal - Point System

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Theo_GL, May 25, 2009.

  1. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    Problem : Bod system is somewhat broke. There are a limited number of larges that make sense to complete and some smalls that have zero value. IE not worth turning in large and smalls cost too much to complete to even turn in for timer reset. Take Bone 20 Nn Spined. Large reward is +10 scroll? Small is some cloth? Neither one is worth the amt of spined and bone materials not to mention difficulty to craft.

    Solution: Change bods to a point reward system. You get diff points for the type of bod you turn in. You collect points for them and then choose whatever rewards you want to save up for. Thus every bod becomes valuable to complete and you can acquire the highest rewards through sheer work instead of just getting 'lucky' in the bod lottery.

    Proposal: Here is a stab at what the system would look like for tailor bods. I'd still need to do some thinking on the smith ones.

    Quantity Lets give credit for larger bods
    10 = 1x
    15 = 2x
    20 = 3x

    Quality Its harder to craft and get Exceptional bods
    Normal = 1x
    Exceptional = 2x

    Type The base type of bod should play a role. This allows us to 'boost' bone bods which are the WORST to complete due to difficulty and needing 2 materials for each.

    Cloth/Leather = 1x
    Studded = 2x
    Bone = 3x

    Material This allows us to give bonuses for higher grade material/leather which is due to not only acquiring it but also getting a bod with this level. IE Barb bods hardest to get

    Cloth 1x
    Leather 2x
    Spined 3x
    Horned 4x
    Barbed 5x

    Small/Large Last but not least, lets give credit for completing larges esp 6 piece larges that take the most items to collect and match up.

    4pc/5pc Large = 2x the points of the small bods included
    6pc Large = 3x the points of the small bods included


    Point System Applied

    [​IMG]

    Rewards

    Reward Points
    Barb Runic 1200
    Horned Runic 400
    Spined Runic 150

    Tailor +20 300
    Tailor +15 200
    Tailor +10 100
    Tailor +5 50

    Clothing Bless Deed 500

    Bear Rug 100
    Tapestry 75

    Cloth Level 5 50
    Cloth Level 4 40
    Cloth Level 3 30
    Cloth Level 2 20
    Cloth Level 1 10

    Sandals 150


    Conclusion : This makes all bods worth doing and allows you to claim whatever rewards you'd like vs trying desperately to get the large bod that you want. You get alot more bonus here for bone bods which right now are under rewarded and it lessens the reward and ease of getting and completing barb kit 6pc bods. Spined 20 ex 6 pc should not get you a barb kit and this chart does not give that.

    You can tweak the reward points or whatever, but it seemed a decent approximation based on current prices and desire for these rewards.

    Last, we should consider rethinking the turn in a bod and reset the timer system. It allows you to really power-game a system like this. Maybe it should be 'turn in a bod reset timer to 10 min' and thus allow you to get a bod quicker - but not instantly. That would cut down to 6 bods per crafter per hour to turn in. This may need more discussion.
     
  2. red sky

    red sky Sage
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    Nice proposal, I like it. Too bad it would be scripted like crazy and all runics would become very obtainable. But all the runics are already scripted like crazy right? Not to mention the thousands of val hammers you see everywhere.

    P.S. If this were implemented, the bod for a bod feature would have to be removed. No more fill a bod and turn it in and then get another bod.
     
  3. WildWobble

    WildWobble Sage
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    This is a good idea~!


    I hate bods as they are now i have turned in 1000's and gotten pure trash a point system would make it possible for new players to get into bods i was driven away from them by the complete randomness of the bod system. 120 smith 120 tailor seems to account for nothing i should be getting good bods to fill not 10peice junk small weapon bods with no real value and complete junk reward.

    Red Sky has a good point and a good solution make it so bods are given out less and well it would slow scripts down and make it so the people who log in once a day to collect the bods have something worth collecting. keep the timer just no bod swap no more turn it in to get another though would have to change the timer based on skill also though. or else we all be running .1 tailor skill and smith just to collect mass bods.
     
  4. HunterXHunter

    HunterXHunter Visitor

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    Tailoring is ok at least if I spend sometime I can get a few barbed kit out of this.

    SMITHING is rediculous. There's only 1 BOD in game that gives Val Hammer as reward (and not even consistant I think its 50% val 50%verite) Some dude played with the number before and calculated the chance to get THAT ONE LBoD (20ct Exp Val Plate) which is approximately as rare as hitting Super Lottery. If you also factor in the chance of getting all the required SBoDs to fill it... it is not realistic to get it even if you have unlimited amount of sbods and continuously refilling them and turn them in 23 hours a day. It will probably take you months or years to get it...

    This crap needs some fixing.:cursing:
     
  5. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    /signed. I'm all for this!

    Did I mention my arse luck when it comes to smithing bods?
     
  6. Rocklin

    Rocklin Guest

    Looks like a solid idea. Someone wants to make alt smiths to go after the extra BoDs then good for them. I like the fact that effort equals reward. No matter how hard you work now the system comes down to luck. That's a terrible way to do things.
     
  7. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    First off, let me say, Theo, I fully support this change. Very well thought out, and would make a heck of a lot more sense than the system does now.

    My only counter to this would be they'd need to drop the timer from 6 hours to maybe 1 hour. Having to wait six hours to replace that 2 point BOD would be a pain, particularly at the rate that I seem to get the low end worthless ones. hehe

    I agree, do/turn-in would be too much, but six hours is way too infrequent too. A nice middle ground could be reached, I'm sure.
     
  8. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    1 more idea, what about scaling that 6 hr delay according to what BOD the crafter gets? If you were given a crappy BOD, you need only to wait 1 hr to get the next. If you get a better one, then your need to wait 2 hours. If you get that uber exceptional valorite platemail bod, you need to wait 6 hours.

    Should make it more player friendly while hampering the scripters (specifically bod engines that continuously fill and turn in bods for hours on end).
     
  9. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
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    Currently, you don't need to fill every BOD you get. You just fill the ones you want, and trade with other players for the ones you lack (granted, assuming they're willing to do so).

    Under this proposed system, wouldn't it simply become a matter of grinding your way up to the desired reward, in the way the museum collections work? Wouldn't players end up spending much more time collecting leather? Wouldn't the effective removal of the player-trading bonus give scripters a leg up?

    I'm not saying the idea is fatally flawed. Just that the museum system isn't exactly well loved amongst players.
     
  10. HunterXHunter

    HunterXHunter Visitor

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    I totally understand what you mean but it's no longer possible to do bod trading on many shards now. Also museum isnt ideal but at least in the end of grinding you can "see" a result. Ive been doing smith bods for sometime and for the record i dont sell my pof, and i have about 6 chests off of them (over 600 bottles of pof) countless of worthless hammers and over the year I have gone thru 20000 sbod turn ins... I have yet to see the val hammer giving lbods and the only part i have is the 20ct val exp plate gorget... this is crazy, if i spent my time doing bods on donating shields to the library i would be working on my 25th pair of mace & shield glasses now. Go figure.
     
  11. Jhym

    Jhym Guest

    tsk tsk for shame!! Your prestige drops 5%.

    You've been here long enough to know this was floated at least twice in the past 6 years and that it was shot down because the system could be easily scripted and gamed to get whatever reward you wanted.


    The better solution is to increase the number of Bod types and larges to reflect the now current items we can make. Hanse had said that they had trouble setting up the clothing bods because there weren't enough overall groupings they could make -- but that was before the new wearables.

    ANY revamp of the system should either increase the overall groupings and smalls to reflect new items -- and/or add in randomly generated larges in order for us to better use the smalls we have now.

    However, I WOULD support allowing us to combine smaller bods into a large bod -- for example, allowing us to add 2x10's, or 2x15's or 10+15 to make a 20 in a large bod. But I am also a fan of increasing the amounts to be 25, 50 and 100 pieces and ramping up the rewards accordingly.

    The system works fine, if you work hard at it and trade or spend a lot of money you can get any of the rewards. If you don't, like me, you get what you get based on the time you put in. Sound equitable to me.
     
  12. jp78

    jp78 Guest

    Sign me up, I like the OP idea of a point system.

    I cant keep track of all the Bod's so I've been turned off by them and not doing them for a long time now.
     
  13. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
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    Because the current system isn't being scripted and gamed in any way whatsoever.
     
  14. It Lives

    It Lives Lore Master
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    I am for the new(more) grouping idea, with new rewards as well.:thumbsup:
     
  15. Anakena

    Anakena Seasoned Veteran
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    For making more bods interesting, I would prefer the following proposal :

    1. Make a hierarchy of bods from the lower ones to the best one (valorite runic.

    2. Each time you turn in a Large bod, instead of receiving directly a reward you get a menu where you can pick up one reward. In the menu appear all the rewards equal or lower to the level of your bod.

    With this system you could pick up some powder instead of a dull copper or shadow runic hammer, a bronze runic hammer instead of a + 10 ASH, ...
     
  16. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    I understand the fear here. Keep in mind that with the proposed system you get 2x and 3x the small bod value if you complete the larges. You would still have a need to 'trade bods' to complete the larges to get more points or you could complete the smalls for half the value.

    Can this system be powergamed? Yes.
    Can the current system be powergamed? Yes.

    Right now there are still a handful of powergamers getting alot of barb kits and selling them while casual players are not able to reliably obtain them. There are also approx 50% of the large tailor bods (and corresponding smalls) that have NO value. Who wants a stretched hide deed, +5, +10,+15 scroll or tapestry/rug deed? Most of those larges are not completed and any of the corresponding bone smalls and studded smalls are not completed b/c its not worth the resources.

    This is an attempt to make ALL bods have some value and worth completing. It takes the randomness out of the system and allows you to achieve via hard work.

    The reason the museum stuff is so bad is b/c the point systems are such a mess. The gold/point ratio is crazy high and the turn ins are like turning in 80,000 shields. Who has time for that? If you turned in 25 pieces of virtue armor for mace and shield glasses - people would be all over that system. Lets not compare a great idea that was horribly implemented with this proposal (museum turn ins).
     
  17. Setnaffa

    Setnaffa Certifiable
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    /signed.

    A point system would be so much better than what we currently have.
     
  18. Gellor

    Gellor Guest

    /burned

    No thanks. While the current system is scripted, at least now, it isn't guaranteed to pump kits out every "x minutes".

    Under the proposed system, a scripter gets a kit every "x minutes" every time 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

    Until EA decides to handle the scripting problem(ie never), I can't favor any system that pumps out a reward after x amount of items.

    Not sure of a good solution but this one doesn't jive with me:coco:
     
  19. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    The crap rewards need replaced, and the current system retained.

    There is no reason to go to a point system for tailors. Barbed and horned kits are already TOO EASY to get.

    Before factoring in the relative chances between material types for BODs, about 1 in 8 Tailor BODs, simply by material/type/count/quality, is a Barbed kit small BOD.

    12 Spined smalls, out of a possible 156 (6x4 + 2x6x5 + 2x6x6 = 24+60+72 = 156)
    36 horned smalls out of 156
    58 Barbed smalls out of 156
    (and of course, 0 out of 156 normal leather)
    = 106/624 leather types (including footwear with the leather types), 106/780 once cloth smalls are included.

    another 104 small BODs are for the Horned kit larges, and horned kits are roughly equivalent to GOLD runic hammers (just slightly lower minimum intensities).


    The first 2 years I played, I got no barbed kits, and precious few horned kits.

    Before the "turn in a bod for a new BOD" system went in, though, my collection of BODs finally hit critical mass. I got 3 in a MONTH, and from then on, as long as I acquired about 5 BODs a day (I've gone MONTHS without BOD runs, several times, due to event distractions), getting 1-2 more Barbed kits and 4-6 horned kits has been NORMAL for a month.

    All it takes is collecting a few BODs to get 1-2 sets of each small category just waiting for their larges, and as long as you get 100-200 BODs a month (just from runs, or turning in for new ones), the Barbed kits, horned kits and CBDs come at a regular pace.

    I've never scripted; never traded more than 2-3 BODs with another player in a month at most (and then, smith BODs, not tailor). Yet I'm currently sitting on over a dozen Barbed kits, a dozen CBDs (and I use them casually, so if I actually SAVED them for rare item I'd have dozens), and 30+ horned kits. I'll pull out a horned kit and take requests, for free (just supply leather) for any guildmate that asks, from ANY of the guilds I'm in, and STILL get them quicker than I can use them.

    The secret of getting barbed kits is simply that of letting ones' collection reach critical mass (complete sets, preferably 2-4, of smalls for the larges you want), then filling all the cloth and leather normal junk with bought items and turning them back in, which you can do before you even leave the place where you GOT the BOD to start with (repeat until you get exceptional, bone or colored leather BOD type).
     
  20. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    The idea was not to make them easier to get - but to make all bods worthwhile. As it stands - 50% of bods are not worth completing due to the rewards they give. Allow people to work for the rewards they desire instead of turning in junk cloth after cloth bod until *finally* they get a barb kit or horned kit LBOD.

    There are huge inequalities in bods now. The rewards for Bone Larges are worse than Leather 6pc larges and bone larges are 10x harder to complete due to skill level needed and materials needed.

    Personally I'm tired of sitting on or throwing out thousands of bods that have no use. The point system would make all bods worth completing.
     
  21. DHMagicMan_1

    DHMagicMan_1 Guest

    You could do the point system suggested but then increase, significantly, the point value of high end hammers and kits... 2x or 3x would be fine... maybe 4x or 5x?

    That way they won't be overly easy to get Barbed kits but Val hammers will be gettable, it will just take patience, which it should.
     
  22. Gellor

    Gellor Guest

    A point system WOULD make them easier to get for the scripters.

    I agree that the junk rewards need to be tossed out and some bods need to have their rewards re-evaluated.

    But as has been proven in the past, any point system EA comes up with instantly gets scripted 24/365. Look at the results of the community collection: EA couldn't stop the scripters so they make up some BS excuse of "we need to make special ores/wood random for future content"... guess what? 2+ years later and no special content other than pissed off players who now have to buy ore/wood rather than recalling to spots to get what they need.:coco:

    Until EA handles the scripters, the only people really benefiting from any "turn in X number of widgets to get item Y" is scripters. As I mentioned, until EA can handle the scripters, I don't want ANY new systems that are "point" related.
     
  23. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
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    This sort of viewpoint infuriates me.

    It completely ignores the fact that all of the non-point-based systems are also ruled by scripters.

    It also completely ignores the fact that it is impossible to remove scripters. Even if there were some way to block the ability to script things, someone could just build a physical robot that presses keys and buttons like a human being.

    The worst part is that the argument basically boils down to "Scripters exist, so let's punish regular players by not making systems fun to use in any way. That's the ticket!" And this just perpetuates the belief that making systems complicated/randomized/obfuscated will somehow hurt scripters, when in fact it helps scripters by driving away legitimate players.
     
  24. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
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    How about this as a modification to this BoD points plan:

    Keep the points, but instead of using them to directly buy your rewards, use them a la Treasures of Tokuno/The Gauntlet. You build up points that increase your percentage chance to get a "good" BoD.

    Here is the only problem: Say you're in the Gauntlet. You make a few rounds, helping to kill the various bosses and accruing points to bolster your chances of an artifact drop. After a time, you get an artifact and your points reset. There is no direct equivalent to this in the BoD system. You can't have your points reset every time you turn in a BoD.

    So the questions become "When do you reset a character's points?" and "How do you determine what a 'good' BoD is?"
     
  25. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    Exactly.

    The more difficult it is for normal play to acquire something that is tedious - the more advantageous it is to script.

    The current system is also very power gamed and it has driven 90% of bod players to quit bods. Go try to find bod vendors anymore. There used to be dozens - now the major shards have 1 and 2 decent bod shops. People have given up the system and buy from scripters instead.

    The time spent to acquire 2 mil in SoT's vs the time spent to complete and *hopefully* get a Barbed LBOD is not equal. Gather SoT's and sell to take gold and buy barbed kits from scripters. That is the current system.
     
  26. Gellor

    Gellor Guest

    Cogniac,
    Something CAN be done about scripters. Unfortunately, EA either lacks the desire or ability to do anything.

    They either have no desire to do something about it because it take man hours away from... well, wait, WTF are they using the existing man hours on? *confused* Certainly not on regular or quality updates:coco:

    Or they don't have the ability to do anything about them. Maybe EA has put the bottom of the barrel programmers on UO... competent enough to pump out new widgets when the natives get restless:coco:

    I'm not sure which. There are some VERY simple ways they COULD defeat scripters beyond outsourcing it to Punkbuster or similar invasive utility. I won't detail any of my thoughts on how to handle it... EA hasn't shown any inclination on handling the issue so why should I waste my time typing it up.

    EA's handling of scripters is the once every two year public spectacle of "we've banned 300 people and 50 billion in gold" and they still nail innocent people at the same time:loser:

    The biggest complaints people have of all the "scriptable" items(mining, community collections, etc) in UO is "but scripters effect my ability to sell widget X".

    By changing the bod system to a point type system, the complaint shifts from "I can't get a reward" to "I can't sell a reward because scripters are under cutting me by 50%". So in all honesty, I can't really blame EA for not addressing this one at all because they are damned no matter what they do.

    I'll say it again... while I don't feel the current bod system is the end all and be all of systems, I don't think converting to a "point" based system is the way to fix it while scripters are not handled.
     
  27. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Bod venders? Why would anybody sell there good bods if they can complete it them self and reap the rewards. Why would anybody want to sell there junk bods when they can turn a junk bod and get a new one in return instantly. Bod venders were only needed last year when you had no choice but to wait.
    Now just grab 6 characters in you're account put .1 skill in tail and blacksmith log in which each one once a hour or how many times you can a day gather at least 120 bods for smith and 120 bods for tailor in 5 days if only log in 4 times in a 23 hour period. Fill and turn in 120 of each with legendary smith-tailor get another 120 of each back keep what you need fill what you don't trade again. Do the same next week.
    At the end of the months a minimun of 720 bods gathered fill the color larges turn in hold the rest for next month another 720 bods gathered that month. of course in those 720 bods you cycle trough the useless ones multiple times so 720 bods for the month actually become at least 2-3k different bods you saw for the month. There, val hammer soon to be yours and this is just the bear minimum. 1 years time youre collection will be massive like Basara, mines and others.
    Always 1 away from a val. Though I would prefer if at least one other bod set had a good chance for a val.
     
  28. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    LOL - Apparently you have no knowledge of my bod collection.
     
  29. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
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    Because you said this:
    ..and gave no examples to back up this claim. So logically, one must assume that you are merely lying on an Internet forum in order to make yourself look important.
     
  30. Gellor

    Gellor Guest

    The ideas are simple... typing them out is not so much. Aka the picture is worth a thousand words symptom.

    But here is a novel idea: change the way the encryption works. I've got a few ideas on that but again, not my job to do THEIR job for them.

    Look what happens everytime they patch the client... THE program is gone for a day or two. Doesn't take a highschool graduate to put one and one together: patched UO(ie change in data stream) = broken THE program.:coco:

    As I said, EA's idea of handing cheater/scripters is a once every two year public spectacle of "look at this banning we did". Otherwise, they are content to bury their head in the sand over the issue until another Stratics uprising comes around. Then it is another banning spectacle and hand out more eye candy:loser:

    I'm not sure how many people they have working on UO and whether it is their full time job. But one would pray EA put competent enough programmers on UO that one guy in a 40 hour week could fix one bug if not more... especially with the "helpful" people of stratics darn near holding their hand describing the bug almost step by step.

    I've dealt with legacy code and migrating it to another programming language. While somewhat difficult, it isn't impossible and certainly doesn't require a genius to get work done with it.

    Again, don't get me wrong, I think the BOD system as it sits now pretty much sucks in how streaky/random it is. But as I said, changing it from the current system to a point system will only migrate the complaints from "streakiness/randomness" to "scripters are underselling me"
     
  31. Black Tom

    Black Tom Journeyman
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    I like the points idea. The only thing I would be against is the 10 minute timer for new BODs.

    Say you have 1k junk or turn in BODs. You would run up your points at first, but once you ran through these BODs, you would have a lot fewer to turn in in the future. Anyone that doesn't have a bunch of BOD runners and a bunch of time would soon run out of turn ins.
     
  32. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    True I have no idea. Just shooting it out there one way to achieve a bod collection. I get sad when I hear people having horrible luck with the rng and receiving only one val bod of anything in a 6 month period.
     
  33. Harb

    Harb Guest

    Very good idea, for tailor and smith bods. Values might need a little tweaking, but the concept is dead on. All I'd add is that as part of a systemic revision, if dev pours in enough love, they might also be able to introduce bods for the other crafts and possibly even roll bods and the Heartwood quests into a single system (I've just always disliked "dual" systems).
     
  34. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    Here is a pic of my main bod house on GL. Each one represents a vendor stuffed with the max amount of storable bods (approx 600 depending on number of bod books). Pictured here is roughly 16k bods. Not pictured is my secondary house with a few more thousand bods nor my collections on Europa, Catskills, Sonoma and a few other shards. Yes, its a like a job sometimes and one that isn't very fun. But, if you want items to craft with - then so be it.
    It is interesting how many people worry about scripters and prices and being able to sell stuff. I thought the goal of bods was to obtain things to craft with. I see no issue with making more runics available. After all - what good is a crafter who has a hard time getting the tools of the trade? I really don't care about the current market price of runics. I use what I get to make armor and weapons.

    [​IMG]
     
  35. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Very nice. I always have trouble assorting my Tailor bods the way I want it but eventually I'll get to it. I don't mine having more runics available but I definetly want it to not resemble a collection type turn in or heartwood quest type turn in. Also don't want verite to be worth as much as dull and val as much as bronze type thing. I don't mined the randomness if it was truly random but the rng feels more like a casino slot machine.
     
  36. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Hence, we need to look at enhancements/solutions that will achieve 2 subgoals:

    1) Impede scripters
    2) Makes it work better if unscripted



    Problem 1 -
    Alot of things players can do can be scripted. The most scripted things are the more tedious tasks. Esp those tasks that seem to reward robot-like repetition tasks like filling and turning in BODs, certain library collections, heartwood quests etc.


    Problem 2 -
    Everytime a patch breaks a certain scripting program, it is usable again in a matter of days. And this downtime seems to be getting shorter. They seem to have broken the encryption. I can't be sure, but changing the encryption may not generate enough long term benefits to justify the cost in resources. There are simply too many know patterns currently that can be analyzed to crack any new encryption. Solutions need to put into consideration that someone will always invent a better scripting program.


    Problem 3 -
    For the OP's suggestion, it's not actually the point system that will gain scripters an advantage. It's the ability to turn in BODs to recycle them that is giving scripters an advantage.


    Possible solution for BODs (just a rough guide, there are other issues that needs to be considered):

    1) Impose a limiting factor on any bonus that you get - eg in a point reward systems presented by the OP - you can only get the points for the first couple of BOD you turn in every 6 hours. Any BODs you turn in a after that do not give points. 6 hours is an arbitrary number. It can be as long or short as needed to effectively make if not worth scripting.

    2) Or, a random factor on the bonus - The interval for how quickly you can get a new BOD depends on what BOD you last received. If it's a low level BOD, you can collect a new BOD in just 1 hour. If you get an uber BOD, you need to wait 6 hours

    3) Scaled factor on the bonus - You can submit as much as you want, but you get progressively less points the more you submit. This penalty to points will slowly reduce over 6 hours (again arbitrary number, can be 1 hour or can be 24 hrs depending on player input).
     
  37. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

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    I would go as far as to say that the time frame depends on how many patches have been done recently.

    For example, if the devs throw out a patch once every few days for a while (say to fix issues previous patches introduced), the Voldemort programmers eventually get sick of it and wait until the devs take a break before updating their own code.

    However, given that the UO devs have not released multiple patches in, say, a week for a VERY LONG TIME NOW (or any patches at all for "a very long time", for that matter), the Voldemort coders have no dis-incentive to update ASAP.

    (That, and fresh bugs just... stay in the game).