UPDATE5: Point 2 updated to take into account the difference between 80 points on prodo and on siege. UPDATE4: Title of point 1 and 2 updated on input from Tina. UPDATE3: Point 2 updated to reflect new viewpoint from Tina. UPDATE2: Point 1 updated to reflect Tina's opinion. UPDATE1: Point 2 updated with kelmo's opinion. This post describes some (potential) problems about faction thieves that have been presented in the (slightly heated) discussion in this thread http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=108096 From this discussion I tested some stuff on TC1 and confirmed their presence. Three different problems have been outlined by several parties. I will try to give an idea of every position to the best of my abilities. Post here if you want to correct something, I will keep this post updated. 1) It is possible to steal sigils with a technique very similar to the vamp form abuse. People with 10 stealing can steal sigils without drawbacks. On prodo shards you can reach 80 stealing with 10 real skill, +30 from jewels +10 from bandana/mark +20 from leggings, + 10 from ferret form. On siege that is about 40/50 skill (blessed legging plus two disposable jewels). Wear items, steal sigils, remove items keep the sigil. I confirmed this on TC1. This allows full fledged fighters to steal sigils without effects on their templates/outfits. By doing this the role of thieves in faction is lessened because there is no ACTUAL need for a thief, a warrior overloaded with item can do the same job as effectively. After some discussion, almost every participant in that thread, except one, agreed that this technique to steal sigils without sacrificing anything should be stopped, although there was disagreement on some of the proposed solutions. A minimal solution would probably be something like vamp form: you remove the items, you lose the sigil. 2) Even without the item-switching trick, 80 skill points may be considered too low a requirement. This point was more controversial. Basically, on one side you find people who say that if you remove 80 points from a fighting template, you still are largely effective in combat and still get full benefits from stealing sigils, while a typical non-faction combat thief should sacrifice at least 200 points (stealing and snooping) from its fighting skill. On the other side you find people who say that a REAL faction thief has already a crammed template without adding an additional requirements for snooping. Proposed solutions: After some discussion the most interesting solution was to require some other non-combat skill that a faction thief is assumed to have, like remove trap or lockpicking or detect. EDIT: While I am writing this, however, I think that another possible idea would be to introduce the snooping requirement to steal sigils, but at the same time removing the requirements for remove trap, most notably the lockpicking requirements which holds up uselessly 50 skill. Some of those against the snooping requirement also observes that thieves with snooping get the ability to snoop packs from snooping, which an ability that some faction thieves might want to forsake in exchange of combat (or other faction thief) skills. A complex problem. I suppose that a proper step in the right direction would be to raise the requirement for 100% chance to steal sigils at 100 stealing. Also, any solution should take into account that 80 skill points are probably a heavier requirement on siege than on prodo shards. An additional interesting point has also been made in this thread, that by making it easier to have faction thieves in the game it is easier to get kill points by killing the many thieves in game; if there were only few thieves in factions it might happen too often that killing a thief wouldn't grant you kill points because you killed him just a little before. 3) Thieves in statloss should not be able to steal sigils, while current item system allows them to do that. Those who present the problem say that a faction thief in statloss can be fully effective just by equipping one item to go over 80 stealing skill points, while everybody else in statloss is strongly penalized. On the other hand, the other side says that everybody in statloss can still be useful in combat, while a thief that cannot steal sigils anymore is completely useless. The only way that I can see to conciliate both positions is to introduce a chance-based mechanism to steal the sigils instead of using a on/off threshold, so that a thief in stat wouldn't be able to be as effective as a a fully functional thief, but still having a chance to steal the sigil. Please guys, if you think I misrepresented your position, or skipped something you think relevant, let me know, and I will try to edit this post to reflect it.