1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

Devs-Why isnt insurance property based?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Goldberg-Chessy, Sep 12, 2008.

  1. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,038
    A basic change to the insurance system should be to make the $ amount of insurance based on the amount and intensity of the mods/properties on an item. And make it fairly susbstantial for real effect(maybe in Felucca only?)
    For example; a weapon with 5 near max properties should be 50k to insure each time.
    Obviously the numbers would need tweaking but the idea could be sound.
    Most Felucca players are wealthy enough but they still wont wanna be dropping 500k everytime they die.
    It could possibly even go a long way towards reducing the lather/rinse/repeat effect you get at spawns.

    This should also help reduce the number of elite items some people carry in their packs all day. Even extremely effective add-ons such as bolas and apples could be beefed up.

    ???
     
  2. Yalp

    Yalp Guest

    Interesting concept. Wonder how it would work in the code, but that is for others to speak to with authority. I look forward to reading the pros vs. cons on this idea.
     
  3. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    32
    I always thought that's how they came up with 600.

    100 for each of the 5 properties no matter if the item less than 5, plus 100 for the base item.


    50k is a bit too much, but this suggestion would make blessed items much more useful.

    OTH, it'll be a nightmare to calculate for the players and the server.

    If it's up to a vote, I'd rather it be kept simple as it currently is.
     
  4. Ni-

    Ni- Guest

    Interesting indeed... Would Felucian want this? It might mean more gold per kill... That would do thieves no good...

    I don't think I'd want this in Trammel, however if it made it there I'm sure I'd just adjust. Probably by not using irreplaceable items and just not insuring them.
     
  5. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,038
    Correct.
    Kind of a two-fold bonus. one 1/2 is a nice little gold sink and the other 1/2 is a nice bonus for the person who gets the kill.

    As far as the coding works I have no clue but if the numbers are too wild to make it feasible then lets at least beef up the static insurance number to something meaningful.
    Maybe a straight 5k or 10k per item?

    Bottom line is that with insurance in place something else needs to make death more meaningful. Times change, economies change. Lets go with the times and raise the bar on production shards.
     
  6. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Secret Society

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2001
    Messages:
    35,539
    Likes Received:
    908
    Or insurance could be entirely eliminated, thus eliminating the people who run around in uber suits. I'd love to see the game less item based...especially if it means without insurance at all...la
     
  7. pavel.vesely

    pavel.vesely Guest

    Insurance cost could be calculated at time of creating or insuring item and stored on item, so it would not take time to compute at time of kill. Not that I like this idea, I do not have much money.

    Pavel VeselĂ˝
     
  8. InTooDeep

    InTooDeep Guest

    An idea that has merit, but the problem is that would probably lead to even more nude tamer templates that carry an insured/blessed pet summoning ball and thats about it (much like siege sadly). People running around with throw away suits usually means that the resists are slightly weaker, which puts them at a huge disadvantage vs things like greater dragons. Currently, even with all 70s, a greater dragon could still get basically a 1 hit kill on someone; and if not, the next 10 spells that hit all at once will.
     
  9. ShadowJack

    ShadowJack Guest

    we used to handle dragons and tamers just fine. It's the tamer class that would have to figure out if they wanted their animals nerfed for pvp use.


    all kill with a dragon isn't really fighting, it's using an npc to do it for you, and it's not like an ev or bladespirits


    Personally I don't believe tamers belong in pvp, but since I'm fighting for the return of the thief, I will not say that is a correct opinion, they belong in fel as much as the theives do.



    On the items, I am for removing insurance all together in fel, but maybe the embue skill should prevent insurance of an item in fel and trammel

    depending on what it does.. of course, but it sounds cool, why not make it powerful and balance it by making the items wear out soon and non insurable
     
  10. Rubican

    Rubican Guest

    I still think that if they increase/remove insurance in Fel that the disparity between the haves and have nots will increase. Only the wealthy will run around with quality items (in an item based game). What we'll have left is bunch of "all kill" spammers and naked thieves...if thats what people wanted Siege would be full.
     
  11. ShadowJack

    ShadowJack Guest

    That's the point of doing it


    If the rich folk come to fel holding rich stuff non stop, we'll keep taking it from them via killing/stealing


    people are still going to want to use good items, they'll just use stuff they can replace



    you don't wear your best jewelry to dig a ditch do you? Keep your gear out of pvp in fel



    The point is to take away from the item based feel of the game and move back towards a non item based system for fel



    both shards, both styles of play, room for both types of players.


    the game could have the best of both worlds


    classic oldschool non item based rougher playstyle for fel

    all the goodies for trammel with insurance, easy farming, easy everything


    the fel style of pvp that exists could be put into affect for trammel


    If reds don't like the change, then they should get amnisty to turn blue again OR an idea would be to put chaos and order in trammel and let reds play and access trammel while in one of them (it would go along with the story line well too, having reds in tram fighting for chaos)
     
  12. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,175
    Likes Received:
    0
    why would it be a nightmare for a server to calculate?
     
  13. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,175
    Likes Received:
    0
    who is Felucian?
     
  14. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,175
    Likes Received:
    0
    that would make the game MORE item based. as it is right now I've been using the same suit for quite a long time. I haven't had to worry about items at all. your idea would mean I'd have to spend a lot of time making sure I have spare 2/4 or 2/6 sets around all of the time. thieves are the ones who want everything to be item based, pvp'ers hate it. they just build a suit and forget about the items for the most part.
     
  15. Doomsday Dragon

    Doomsday Dragon Visitor

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    477
    Likes Received:
    0
    I kind of like this idea really I do. The problem however is that trying to write code for something like that would not be easy at all. It would if the server did not already have a lot of very old code in place that has been picked at and "fixed" time and time again by different people over the years.

    Chances are that if insurance was changed now we would have a lot of unhappy people with lost items due to bugs in it. The current insurance system is just now getting ironed out so replacing it with something new is potentially and likely dangerous for us as players. So I say keep it how it is because it is one of the few working systems in the game :hahaha:

    Seriously though the cost should be based on if it was and artifact tokuno treasure minor artifact player crafted exceptional or standard loot item ect.
     
  16. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,175
    Likes Received:
    0
    this is a common misconception. no one is going to run around with hard to get items just because they are rich. rich people are more apt to be the person picking a penny up from the ground or looting a spawn of every last gold piece.

    if they did away with insurance in Fel it would just be a matter of combining the right blessed items with certain craftable items that are decent or make the suit as good as it can be made cheaply. no one is going to run around with IR glvoes on just because they are rich. it would happen, but not like you are predicting.
     
  17. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,779
    Likes Received:
    434
    Todays system is far more suited to rich players than if we had a change to remove insurance. I don't see the point in raising the cost in Fel because it would just get stupidly expensive for the guys who start out. Millions for the suit, millions to insure it - who'd try PvP out then? We want a system where new folks can get started without 100mil investments. Take insurance out, let players fight with insurance in Tram and let Fel players experience proper risk for a change. Why go all wishy-washy when the whole facet is intended to have risk v reward. It's just plain dull and uninteresting right now.

    Bear in mind that without insurance it's not enough to just have a great suit and connection, you need to defend yourself against inevitable ganking as the masses try to relieve you of said suit. Where now I can get the same reward killing a miner bot as I could the top PvPer on Europa. He has no fear of death because it's meaningless. If we just up the cost of insurance that just makes it even more ridiculous. It would push PvPers into farming or trading for yet more gold when they want to fight, and make it a chore from start to finish.

    Beside which, we have thieves in Fel too, whether the OP likes that or not. Any changes to Fel should be designed to improve life for most people, rather than some. It's not like we get Fel love often, though at least now we may be getting some....

    Wenchy
     
  18. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    32
    It would be simple for things like jewelry, where you can tell how many properties there are, but it's more difficult for armour.

    Unless the item record has fields to indicate what kinds of magic properties and the intensities, it would have to do some serious number crunching.

    You remember a time when runic sewing kits give leather armour the "mage armour" property? Consider a leather gorget with no material bonus.

    An elemental resist magic property ranges from 1-15. Exceptional pieces adds 6% spread randomly among the 5 resists, and there's a tag, so with a bit of calculation, the server can work backwards. But armslore gives an extra 5% that doesn't have a tag.

    A base leather gorget has these properties:
    P 2
    F 4
    C 3
    P 3
    E 3

    For a crude example, a exceptionally crafted runic leather gorget has these properties -
    P 8
    F 9
    C 4
    P 4
    E 4


    1) It could be a 1 property item:
    P 2 +2(exceptional) +1(armslore) +3(bad runic roll)
    F 4 +4(exceptional) +1(armslore)
    C 3 +1(armslore)
    P 3 +1(armslore)
    E 3 +1(armslore)

    2) It could be a 2 property item:
    P 2 +2(exceptional) +1(armslore) +3(bad runic roll)
    F 4 +4(exceptional) +1(armslore)
    C 3 +1(armslore)
    P 3 +1(armslore)
    E 3 +1(armslore)
    Mage armour

    3) It could be a 3 property item:
    P 2 +6(exceptional)
    F 4 +5(armslore)
    C 3 +1(bad runic roll)
    P 3 +1(bad runic roll)
    E 3 +1(bad runic roll)

    4) It could be a 4 property item:
    P 2 +6(exceptional)
    F 4 +5(armslore)
    C 3 +1(bad runic roll)
    P 3 +1(bad runic roll)
    E 3 +1(bad runic roll)
    Mage armour

    5) It could be a 5 property item (no armslore):
    P 2 +2(exceptional) +4(low runic roll)
    F 4 +4(exceptional) +1(bad runic roll)
    C 3 +1(bad runic roll)
    P 3 +1(bad runic roll)
    E 3 +1(bad runic roll)

    How would the server determine which is the case?
     
  19. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    32
    I agree, rich people are more likely to pick up a penny from the ground, scrimp and save, work out how to pay less to get more, make use of company resources for personal use etc...
     
  20. Kith Kanan

    Kith Kanan Guest

    And I hope thiefs will be put in a box and trown in the sea....

    Enough with the whining about other peopels uber suits , get of ya lazy heini and make one yourself or quit crying about it....

    no insurance is that way " points toward siege "
     
  21. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,175
    Likes Received:
    0
    the server can't determine anything on its own.
     
  22. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    32
    Aye, which is why I said it's going to be a nightmare for the servers as well. I tried to dry run algorithms through my head to see run how to code something like this and it's not easy. Too many cases to cater for.

    Also, once if the devs come up with something, the best way would be to run all the items through the program during the maintenance cycle and add the number of properties to each item record.

    They last time extra properties were added to all the items was done was during AOS...

    Again, the discalimer:
    If the existing item records already have fields that contains the number/type/intensities of each magic property, then the case I highlighted in my previous post does not hold.
     
  23. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
    Administrator Professional Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Patron

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2006
    Messages:
    5,570
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    I think tamers have a place in PvP like any other class. Just pets need to have the same PvP damage caps as anything else. What these tamers don't realize is that Greater Dragons aren't the end all be all of pets...Train a pack of Frenzied Ostards Damage per Second output is higher than a Greater Dragons.
     
  24. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
    Administrator Professional Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Patron

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2006
    Messages:
    5,570
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    This would be best. I'm not about to say it should be Global though, Let Item Based play have a place, you know Trammel, Tokuno, Malas and Ilsh on production shards...Kill Insurance in Fel and you'd do far more to balancing PvP and other aspects of Fel based play. You know it being a Siege Player I know it being a Siege/Prodo Player.
     
  25. Doomsday Dragon

    Doomsday Dragon Visitor

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    477
    Likes Received:
    0
    I can see it now. Everyone at a champ spawn wearing virtue armor.

    That thought makes me want to commit suicide...
     
  26. ShadowJack

    ShadowJack Guest

    see, there will always be options


    and that comment made me laugh
     
  27. Rubican

    Rubican Guest

    You do have good points that of course are true. IR, ornys and such will be simply house decorations or sold for Fel. based players. The disparity will come, for example, from mages who will nearly cease to exist in Fel. Uninsured suits mean no 100% LRC which means costly regs. The "all kill" spammer, who will become even more commonplace, will loose little. Again, I think this would lead to too many tamers and too many thieves (who wouldn't have much more to steal anyways).

    Fel. is mostly barren and any talk of change there should center around increasing population (IMHO).
     
  28. MYUO

    MYUO Guest

    I was trying to promote this idea a few years ago when a small group of players had overwhelmingly superior equipments over the vast majority of others. Now, thanks to the widely avialable mid to high end items, the consequene of this idea will be raising insurance for everyone. If the idea is implemented a few years ago, ppl can adjust over time. Now it is a bit too late.

    Plus, the widely spreaded duping and scripting have made many exploiters/cheater super rich. They will be the benefactors of the change and this change will encourage them to cheat more.

    Unless dev comes up with some ways to get rid of the cheaters while keeping the honest players intact, any ideas for gold sink or using gold to leverage game play will be futile.
     
  29. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    6,680
    Likes Received:
    824
    Hrmmm, maybe he is referring to Fel, you know, the facet. Or perhaps that is just too obvious and you were being sarcastic, hopefully, lol

    But property based insurance would be both good and bad. Bad for the people who don't have that much gold, and good if you don't wish to spend that much gold to insure.

    I think, a more reasonable way to work the whole insurance thing, is to limit insurance to what you can wear. So if you are going into a fight, only the items you are wearing are insured and whats in your bag is not insured.

    And for the problem is disarm, well, I'm sure there is a way to make it work with that too. Perhaps limit insure to a number of 10 or 11, depending on how many items can actually be worn/held.