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Difference between a "Portal" and a "Moongate"

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Vlaude, May 7, 2011.

  1. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
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    I just finished playing Portal 2 and it got me wondering what the differences are between a Portal and Ultima Moongates. I know the moongates function differently in UO than other Ultima games but they are still a bit baffling. I'm pretty sure we're all familiar with moongates and this promo helps explain what a portal is:

    [YOUTUBE]BpZjdI-Ob-w[/YOUTUBE]

    One thing that I noticed is that with the portals if you go through them at certain angles you can catch a glimpse of yourself on the other side. Is that also the case with moongates (like if our player camera angles were different?) or do they function much differently?

    Anyways, this is kind of a nerdy discussion but I hope someone will have something interesting to say between all the trolling and sardonic responses this will probably get.
     
  2. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Based on Ultima 7's "load screen", there seems to be a bit of travel involved through a moongate vs through a portal. Where a portal is immediate step through one end and out the other, a moongate is more like a wormhole.

    That's my stab at it.
     
  3. I'm sorry ...
    Portals are technological creations
    Moongates are "magical manifestations"
    As Clarke noted:
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is
    indistinguishable from magic.

    Which brings us back to my "apology"
    I'm sorry ...
    Your question indicates that you will be unable
    at this time
    to understand the explanation.

    Toddle on now ... :danceb:(ergo: Yes, you can see yourself entering and exiting a UO moongate ... see: Schrödinger's cat)
     
  4. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
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    No need to apologize to me for anything, ever. In fact *puts on ignore* there you go :) As GLaDOS says: "The best solution to a problem is usually the easiest one." Toodle on now.

    Note to Clarke: try me!

    @Dermott, thank you.
     
  5. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    The difference is that in UO, the cake gifts are real, just inedible. :lol:
     
  6. Also, to put someone on ignore is perfectly acceptable. It is NOT, however, acceptable to state in public that one is now ignoring them for that in itself is trolling for a "response" from them. Just ignore them and move on.

    Clarke is Dead so ... you'll have to get IN LINE on the other side for him to demonstrate the wisdom ...
    (should have done some research BEFORE calling him out)

    GlaDOS is technically incorrect in the plagerisim of Occam's razor
    The "best" solution generally involves: prevention of the occurrence of a "problem" ...
    AKA the 7Ps
    As further refined in the old saw/whine:
    It's hard to remember the primary objective was draining the swamp
    when you're up to your waist in alligators/crocodiles
    (best application of the 7Ps would be the {not too easy} prior removal of alli's/croc's)

    The Fayled NEVER "toodles"
    thilly toddler! :danceb:

    The Fayled wasn't apologizing "to you", but, For you ... yw



    Some are ... some weren't ... :lol: True?
     
  7. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    We know you can see through moongates because the original moongate system let you click on them and it would describe the other side. For example it would say a forest or plains.
     
  8. Cirno

    Cirno Purple Pony Princess
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    GLaDOS was not technically referring to Occam's Razor at that point. It was a conclusion she reached by herself, based on the context of the situation, which would be spoilerific to go into.
     
  9. Cirno

    Cirno Purple Pony Princess
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    I remember that.
    You used to (in theory) use the description of the other side to go through at the right time to reach your desired destination. In practice, people would just keep running through over and over until they reached where they wanted to be.
     
  10. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    *Nods* and in keeping with Fayled, those unfamiliar with debate should read Plato's "Apology."

    *Nods* a more straight forward example ;P...however, moongates began much more like the portals found in "Portal." At first, you could use a moongate defensively, by setting one up between an aggressive tamed animal, for example, and yourself. The opponent's animal would go through the gate and to the other side, and then you could dispel the gate and finish off the hapless tamer. Moongates are much less "Portal" now, especially with the great usurper known as "bonding."
     
  11. Widow Maker

    Widow Maker Slightly Crazed
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    LOL...Fayled...keep it up. I have always loved the mental image of people all around the world scrambling to Google and trying to figure out what you have told them.

    Priceless! :thumbsup:
     
  12. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
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    Lol, yeah buddy I took Philosophy 101 too and know about Plato, Descarte, Socrates you're so cool for mentioning it to appear erudite:thumbsup:. However, Fayled is just trolling. He wants to say "there is no answer to your question that can be understood so let's abandon the topic." His lack of basic social skills and knowledge of modern day cultural references earns him an ignore from me. This isn't necessarily a "debate" but Fayled can't help himself from trying to make it one because again, no social skills, just a massive undeserved ego. So, let's move on and just discuss it:

    Thanks for actually discussing the topic instead of just adding to a troll. This is actually pretty interesting. What is the difference between the gates casted by a mage and the moongates in static locations around Sosaria? Why is there sometimes an option to enter and sometimes not? Practical gameplay reasons only? I remember back in '98 there weren't many options to entering gates, you just went into one automatically. Also, they all used to be blue when the game was only one facet. And why can static moongates exist in Ilshenar but cannot be casted?

    I guess what I'm getting at is there is probably some fiction to Ultima moongates than I'm not familiar with, does anyone know about it or have a link to something other than a wiki?
     
  13. Widow Maker

    Widow Maker Slightly Crazed
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    The current delay and sometimes lockout from entering a gate was a cure to a well exploited dupe.

    The current gump for entering is based on players needing to know that they are about to hit Fel and not Tram. That came from the old gating tricks like the one you mentioned, including the old monster gating that we used to use to mess with folks pretty hard. Ahhh..the old "gate em into a castle courtyard filled with poison eles, blood eles and dragons. Dispel exit side gate and loot at leisure. Fun times.
     
  14. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    When I read your response to Fayled I imagined you must have lingered on the "toddle on" statement. In response, you decided to rage. I'm not sure what your personal history is with Fayled, but the meat of his post wasn't a troll. Actually, what he said made perfect sense: you can't compare technology to magic, and magic is not governed by fact. I find it hard to believe you passed a philosophy course if you couldn't interpret his post. As for appearing erudite, only the humble will learn. You obviously lack knowledge, or else you wouldn't have created this thread. If you willingly prove your ignorance then respond with socially inept replies when you are given an answer you only strengthen Fayled's once wildcard suggestion to "toddle on."

    I'm unsure as to the nature of these questions. Chiefly, a static moongate--in the case of what I used to call a PMS (Public Moongate System, back when we had to wait periods of time to get to the right place)--may send the user to multiple exits, while a mage-casted gate is a direct link to only a single exit. As for the option, I'm not sure whether you are addressing Z-Axis terrain issues, player ship gates, or other possible scenarios. And the last question--which is what has me puzzled--well, I have to preface my response with a question of my own: have you ever played in Fel since your return, and did you miss the launch of Ilsh? The color differential is meant to help people discern the facet exit of a gate, and Ilsh was originally designed to be an area in which travel spells were prohibited. Currently, it is a popular place for EMs to place event clickers as to prevent people from gating in an entire army of characters for event items. Otherwise, the no recall rule is an archaic feature of Ilsh.
     
  15. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
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    Actually the troll was the whole "I'm sorry" part. Is that how you talk to people? If it is I would love to see the reactions you got from it. I've been meaning to put him on ignore for awhile and forgot about him entirely until he decided to come post here. There was no "raging," however your input is a bit annoying I'll admit because a lot of things are going over your head (or just plain being ignored). I understood he was saying you can't compare science fiction to fantasy and I disagree when it's supposedly a light-hearted conversation among gamers. That is why I said it's a nerdy discussion at the beginning. I passed my philosophy class with flying colors, thanks for caring. Time to move on ok?

    You said you are unsure of the nature of the questions. You were wrong about their nature. I'm more interested in actual fiction behind the moongates (which I stated right under the part of the post where you ended the quote). You're going into UO game mechanics and development history, which I'm familiar with.
     
  16. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Watching that video where the robots falls from a portal above into the portal below, transporting them back on top to repeat it again...this got me thinking about UO's Moongates and how they work.

    The gates don't teleport you just for being in them, since you arrive and are in the Moongate but stay where you are. So you have to actually walk into them, and I assume you are actually walking through them to the other side/end.

    In other words, the way they work, the above robot scenario would also work with Moongates if one was above the other and you fell into the other.

    I wonder if a couple of mages in their house, using a goza on a second floor and casting gate spells there and on the floor directly below, then removing the goza, well, what if someone walks into the top gate from where ever it goes to, falls into the gate below, and what? Would the second gate then teleport that person to it's other end?
     
  17. Cirno

    Cirno Purple Pony Princess
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    In theory.
    If you remember, you used to be able to place two gates in line with each other, and run into one and out the other for as long as the gates remained open. If the gate transports you from point A to point B when you pass through it, then in "real" terms, it should work along the Z axis, as well as X and Y (although in game, it appears to be triggered by moving along X or Y on the same Z).
    However, the laws of thermodynamics might have a thing or two to say about the whole "free falling through portals/gates" thing.
    If, of course, they were capable of saying anything.
    Assuming they could, it would probably be "no" :(

    Coincidentally, I was wondering a few months back of whether things like the Serpent Pillars could be turned into something like the Serpent Gate from Ultima VII: Serpent Isle.
    Awful low of "serpent" in that last sentence.
    Something like the line between the pillars being effectively a localised server line, allowing one to literally sail through to another facet.
    It's a little similar to the subject, at least
     
  18. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
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    Fiction wise, from Dermott's insight, wouldn't freefalling through gates look a lot different than through portals?

    And yeah, the Serpant Pillar thing should happen!
     
  19. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    The Serpent Pillars are related to the Serpent Isles, where the human version of Ophidians in Ultima Lore made an escape through Moongates into some other plane or shard or facet, much like the peoples of Ilshenar's ancient past did.

    So, yes, the possibility that they could move between factes/shards seems like a thought.
     
  20. /false
    A) see Plagiarism
    B) see context
    C) see Symbolic/First Order logic

    /false because:
    Implies that a "less than correct" solution is "best" because >it is easiest<
    = fallacy of Post hoc ergo propter hoc
    or
    = Fallacy of Appeal to Authority
    (as GLaDOS says ... GLaDOS is no "authority")

    *shrugs*
    You are welcome to get some "tutoring" here

    Point remains:
    "Pretending" that the OP is relevant to UO ... is pretending of an OT variety
    Lesser in "value" re: "building community" than a dusty ABM ...


    *ahem*
    To drive it yet deeper into the dirt
    IF (given) Lying is the lowest order of creativity
    Then Lying is the best policy ...
    (GLaDOS is a liar by her own admission ... !!! )

    As for a "nerdy discussion" ... :lol: ... not hardly

    MMO (UO) /=/ SO (portal) (0 equivalence)
    :thumbsup: nerds don't make those kinds of mistakes ... nerd
    nor geeks

    :scholar: Either would ask: If a moongate is a wormhole ... what is recall and sacred journey? what are the "equivalent" portal manifestations?
    Again: neither G nor N >would< ask ... BOTH (in-spite of appearance and supposed lack of social skills) KNOW that both games are >pretend games<

    And since it would be "easiest" to just pretend(lie) that such and so is "true"
    That would be the "best solution" ...
    To this particular problem ...

    neh? ... :danceb:
     
  21. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    "I'm sorry" is actually in keeping with "Portal"; all I can say is a lot of people fail to understand Fayled's writing style. Interesting that you indeed focused on the "apology" aspect of his post and not his "toddle on" statement.

    Since you talked about '98 I assumed you left for a portion of time between then and now, thus the technical details. Is that the case or have you played through?

    The T2A game manual pens "gate travel" as "a red gate meant to teleport the player from one place to another." Other than the moon(s) controlling how the old moongates worked I can't think of too much RP as far as their construct is concerned. I guess the simple difference between "gate travel" and moongates is the requirement of moon intervention. I'm sure Galen or Martyna will be able to pull more, perhaps from the single player series as well.
     
  22. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
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    For the THIRD time, I'm asking about the fiction involved, not the game mechanics.

    Portal does an excellent job of showing how the portals work within the FICTION of the game. UO, a 14-year old game, does not do as well. How does the moon "control" the "old moongates"?
     
  23. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Well, first off, Moongates are made of moonlight, and the permanent ones supposedly have a moonstone buried in the ground beneath them. In their case, the 2 moons, Trammel and Felucca, are supposed to control them on destination and times. This worked differently in different Ultima games, and UO's original version was close enough to them to work, fictionally.
    UO Moongates

    Temporary Moongates, like the ones that brought Lord British and the Avatar from Earth to Sosaria, if I recall right, required some sort of magical device (like a Ankh pendant), and in some cases a clearing surrounded by stones (like UO has).

    There are different colors of Moongates, and each color represents what kinds of places you can travel between. Blue is within a world, silver is through time, red is between worlds. Black Moongates are created from Blackrock, and not associated with the moons, and allow travel into space and time (and the Void).
    --This makes me wonder why LB and the Avatr used blue moongates when travelling from Earth to Sosaria, you'd think it would be red gates.

    Whenever an explanation is used, it seems that locations matter. The locations of the moons, or the placement of a magical item.

    As in all things UO, there seems to be plenty of conflict in the lore, or else there's a much deeper meaning that we miss. Maybe we're not supposed to care all that much, like a good little gamerz.
     
  24. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
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    There is no such thing as moonlight, but then again there is no such thing as Sosaria either, and this being fantasy, I can go along with it. Thanks.
     
  25. Nine Dark Moons

    Nine Dark Moons Certifiable
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    :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
     
  26. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Just trying to get a sense of the time you've missed and the historical events you've missed. For example, if you missed the entire launch of Ilsh (Third Dawn client, no recalls, etc.) then there are a few immediate links we could point you to for that information. Or in the case I was referring to earlier, you mentioned playing in '98 but you didn't know about gates being used defensively or how the moon(s) controlled the moongates, which I assume anyone playing in '99 would remember.

    As for the moon(s), Trebr pretty much covered it all, but this site is pretty useful as well. There are actually a lot of old sites dedicated to moongates.
     
  27. Jhym

    Jhym Guest

    Technically, the LAZY and IMPATIENT people would hit the moongates constantly until they finally got where they wanted.

    If you did 5 minutes of research on the net, you could find out exactly how to get where you wanted using a time piece and schedule. Admittedly it wasn't specified in the game itself, but it was easily determined with some experimentation and thought.
     
  28. Jhym

    Jhym Guest

    Fiction-wise, looking at moongates, the original descriptions for the remote locations indicated you could actually feel the air or smell things on the other side of the gate.

    Which would indicate the air also moves through the gates. Which begs some interesting physical questions -- would opening a static moongate to one of the moons empty all of Britannian air? What about between "worlds" (facets)?

    It would make sense that the amount of air in any facet/world cannot be exactly the same as another one, hence air pressure should push or pull air through the gates.

    If you opened a gate in a dungeon (higher air pressure) to a mountain top (lower) you should get a gale-force wind onto the mountain top, that would stop most of those dainty little mages from using them.

    Permanent gates are always open. Mage gates take a set amount of power to hold open for a short time. That implies the permanent gates require a huge amount of power to work. Black rock? Shards of the Gem? The moonstones that we received for a time worked as the mage gates do. So if there were similar moonstones under the gates, they would have to be a different sort.

    Fiction-wise, the gates have changed over the years, usually with no accompanying explanation. Suddenly the gates let the user "pick" a destination. When facets were found, eventually the gate "network" was added to, seemingly by the mages of the realm. The gates in those other facets... did they exist before we hooked up to them? Or did the first explorer-mages build them or refurbish them?

    I have always found it upsetting that new stories will be added at points, but a lot of the underlying lore of where our characters live and "work" is never explained or found. We've never found real evidence for what destroyed Ilshenar and how the cataclysm happened. What about Malas? It appears to be a much worse cataclysm.

    You'd think with all the interconnected gating and facet-hopping that something physical would be happening that might cause other problems --- air and water transfers, materials, monsters moving back and forth (honestly, they should have added one or more inter-facet gates from the dungeons, why in the world would humans be the only ones to build them?)
     
  29. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    [​IMG]
     
  30. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
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    You brought up a lot of good points in this post. Are the little "sparklies" found in some of the dungeons (like fire fel) related to moongates or are those entirely separate teleporting devices of their own? Perhaps questions like that are a little nitpicky, but your last point brought them to mind.
     
  31. Schrödinger's cat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    :thumbsup:so that You "may acquire" ... clarity

    And to "sharpen" Your razor:

    discern the subtle difference re: Uncertainty principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    As buckaroo bonzai once quipped:
    where-ever you go ... there you are ... !!!

    And for further clarity ...
    NOT an "analogy"
    "You"(global/general) >are the cat< (you're the cat)...
    Mark a rune
    take two steps
    cast a gate
    step through (or not)
    "You" >can ONLY "see"< yourself (or not)
    either entering, exiting, or "traveling"(extended state of not)
    into OR out of the gate
    (or not ... for a variety of reasons ... crash, bug, no pay the elec/internet bill, spilled coffee in your lap (looked away) ... )
    And
    (given a typical setup)
    You should generally be "center screen" of the game window ...

    by the by, for future reference
    Quantum entanglement (spooky action at a distance)
    is as real as "moonlight" (which vlaude was "wrong{10:20}" in stating as nonexistent)
    *shrugs*
    Light exists in darkness ... go figure ... :danceb:
     
  32. Cirno

    Cirno Purple Pony Princess
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    Space? Space!
    Spaaaace!

    If air could pass through it, with little more than a breeze (as seems implied), then the pressure differences ("not much at all" versus "an atmosphere") then the atmosphere would start to decompress.
    It would probably take a while, though.
    Although it would depend on whether the moons have an atmosphere of their own. If they were dense enough, their gravity could probably sustain one.
    /me ignores the absence of tides as an indicator
     
  33. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
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    Loved that. Especially after
    "shooting the moon."
    The coop was great too. Can't wait for the FREE DLC! Valve makes great games.
     
  34. Cirno

    Cirno Purple Pony Princess
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    I'm still working through the coop with my housemate. It's been great fun so far, even if she does get a little uncooperative around lasers.
    There'll be player mods in the future, too, including one based on Doug Rattman (with a talking Companion Cube!).
     
  35. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    That was good. I went from liking it to saying "oh, no, here we go", to liking it even more in the end. A really good presentation.

    As someone said,
    "I love to argue because I'm looking for someone to prove to me I'm wrong."

    And people seem to shy away from that, rather than embracing it. But it serves us well here, in UO, simply to make it more interesting.
     
  36. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Well, that's getting into game mechanics again. I'm sure the day is coming, if it's not already here, that it would be possible to have a full 3D game where you could cast a gate to someplace next to you, and watch your arm reach through the "other end".

    Also, with that, imagine the mirror like imaging you could create via a set of such gates in a designed confine. We think UO's custom housing is great?
     
  37. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Yeah, it is good points. In the Ultima games, there were spells that sent you "up" in a dungeon to the same spot on the floor above, and down in the same way. These were "teleport" spells. But whether they (and UO's teleports) are related to Moongates in any way is pretty much an open topic, as far as I know. Maybe someone knows something about this.

    There may be evidence to such things in the lore released with the expansions, and sometimes I find things that seem related elsewhere too. But if they do have explanations, they are hidden and not just handed to us. I like it that way. UO does try to keep things wrapped in their lore. And it would be interesting if they eventually have a meaning, now or in the future, in things we discover.

    For example, in the book "Classic Childrens Tales: Volume Two" the rhyme is:
    Later, the Star Chamber was added to UO, and now we have the Underworld/Abyss, which is the likely meaning for "the Pit". And of course, our "Glass House" is our shard we reside on.

    It makes me wonder sometimes, are we on a journey we don't realize yet?
     
  38. mjolnir131

    mjolnir131 Guest

    pit could be doom as well
     
  39. Fat Midnight

    Fat Midnight Visitor

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    It kind of irks me that I don`t even get banned anymore.

    I guess I need to post when I am a little more awake.
    NVM I will try to respond in the AM