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Do refinements have to be this complicated?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Goodmann, Nov 11, 2013.

  1. Goodmann

    Goodmann Babbling Loonie
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    I am sorry but I left MIT before I could graduate... So how do these refinements work? I read the patch notes from pub 81 and I am just lost. I rarely see people using these in suits so is it to complicated or to hard to obtain all the right parts? I checked uo-guide and there was nothing. Maybe a refinement for dummies book is somewhere?
     
  2. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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  3. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    Thats a fine write up, but combine that with imbuing and then reforging and its a mess of a system. Armor is far too complicated for the average player and looking around I see less than 5% of the population using refinements. I see Zero people using them in PvP and the PvPers are normally the people who understand the most complicated armor systems and squeeze the last drop of usability out of their kit.
     
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  4. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I guess it's all about choice. I have to admit though, for me, some choice is good but too much choice is confusing.
    Standard suit is all 70s resist and if you can get it, max dci is 45.
    I made a new suit for my Petra Fyde char from agapite and accidentally ended up with 2 resists over 70 before imbuing - and I can get no where near 45 dci.
    So I used refinements to raise the resist cap on those two resists, making use of my accidental over run. Then I powdered and imbued the suit.

    The thing about refinements that seems to confuse people is it changes CAPS. Not the actual figures. If you raise your physical resist cap to, say, 75 with refinements, then you must imbue or enhance the armor with enough physical resist to reach that cap.
     
  5. Riply

    Riply Lore Keeper
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    Thank you for your post I will have to read your (how to) thread on refinements, so that I can take advantage of being over capped on some resists. Ok just read your info concerning refinements, So this system helps a lot depending on the situation at had that you will be using the armour for. For example if your fighting that captains that only use physical damage and not magic, you could beef up your DCI and physical resist while lowering other resists that are not needed. If one more is needed like poisoning then you could raise that one as well. Then switch out armour for high resists when your fighting the mages etc.
     
    #5 Riply, Nov 11, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2013
  6. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Refinement is a niche market, which I, for one, have ignored, but not everyone has. (I also argued against it at the time it was proposed.)

    PvPers have ignored them because they primarily are of use in PvM, as far as I can tell. To imply PvPers have a superior understanding of armor systems is a questionable at best, arrogant at worst, and, most importantly for our purposes, an entirely inconsequential point. One can understand the system perfectly well and still think that there's no need to use it.

    The broader point about armor being complicated, while not incorrect, also is a little behind the times. That particular train left the station a long time ago. Most players seem to have adapted long ago. Great Lakes is blessed with a couple of crafters who keep enough vendors well-stocked to be able to design good suits, and crafters for hire are available if one wants armor more customized to one's particular needs.

    -Galen's player
     
  7. Moldy Fishmonger

    Moldy Fishmonger Adventurer

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    Can someone tell me specifically what to do to raise my resists caps to all 75's?
     
  8. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    You need to get invulnerability refinements, for your armor type, if Bone Armor it would look like this:

    Refinement.jpg

    Under-lined in red is pretty much what you need to look for.

    Invulnerability is the highest quality refinement (4-5 mods) I think it's 15% chance at 120.0 to apply the 5th bonus resist (the 5th cap increase will be the last resist chosen to increase when using a refinement)
    Armor type: matches what you're wearing (studded, bone, studded samurai, etc.)
    Bonue Type: Deflecting (+DCI / -resist cap) Reinforced (+resist cap/ -DCI cap)


    So basically, you will need a minimum of 5 Invulnerability + Reinforced refinements (one for each piece of armor (up to 5)) and apply a refinement on each piece until you get +1 in all 5 resist slots.

    I have used about 25-30 invulnerability refinements on one suit, and I still have never seen the 5th resist apply successfully. so I ended up just staying at 75/75/70/75/75 resists.
     
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  9. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    First, your armor needs to reach all 75s, whether by reforging, imbuing, or the random resist bonuses from an exceptionally crafted piece.

    Then for each piece, you need to get an invulnerability refinement matching the armor type, e.g. chainmail for chainmail, woodland for woodland. But an invulnerability refinement guarantees only four increases to the resist cap, and just a 15% chance for a 5th boost. Because of that low probability, statistically one will need 40 invulnerability refinements for a full plate suit. It's hard enough to get an invulernability refinement, or enough lesser pieces to combine up to one invulnerability, My own experience is that the stated 15% (30% for fortification and below) is completely untrue, more like 5%.

    For whatever reason they're not in popular use (I think it's because of the difficulty in making a suit), it's been discussed how refinements can be improved. The devs have ignored this, in favor of a silly amalgamation that only marginally improves the system.

    Refinements need to be reduced to three classes: metal, woodland, and stone. There's too much variety. I wind up junking most of what I get, and in place of minimal cleanup points, I'd rather have a 1/3 chance of getting something usable.

    Refinements need to be stackable. Kyronix never showed me why two Defense for chainmail had any difference.

    Refinement effects need to be stackable, so that if you add Fortification and get three properties, you can later use two Defense refinements to complete the piece. Right now, adding a refinement erases the rest. I have applied ten invul refinements to the same armor piece and still haven't gotten a fifth mod.
     
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  10. DJAd

    DJAd Stratics Legend
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    So a question to all the people who have lowered DCI and raised resists. Does it make a difference? What have been your experiences so far?
     
  11. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Good luck with that..... I still am mystified by the stupid reforging..... something I've never done...

    I gave up LONG time ago on most that. And I have a degree in Applied Sciences.... one would think I could master it but No.... Trying to imbue a suit is more than enough stress and headache for me.

    My only thought is that they wanted to give the genius minds something else to focus on rather than focusing on breaking code and duping etc....
     
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  12. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    Raising resists is pretty stupid. ive done it on a few characters simply because the resists already were a bit above cap and they were ranged and didnt have dci in suits.
    It makes armor unsellable - you use a refinement dont expect on selling anything other than the suit as a whole.

    The DCI (deflecting mod) is Very useful in pvm (not so much in pvp becaues of hit lower defense, but still somewhat)
    a 55 or 60 DCI suit is pretty easy to make. very good for specific fights (like invasion captains!)

    The HUGE problem with refinements is the chance. like when i made my suit i DID NOT want to lower fire or phys, but only had 30 percent chance to apply 3 modifications. I DID NOT want to risk having gaurenteed 3 mods, but chance of 4.

    Basically the chance thing is what ruins it for me. not worth the time imo to get a "perfect" dci suit

    think of it as crafting a woodland suit. your going to be making alot of pieces, refinening them, then throwing them away when they miss a mod if you really want to end up with a max dci suit.

    Most people put at least partial reforged / shame arty pieces into suits. theres really no room for error with enhancing these


    To some up:
    Resists are pretty worthless unless its just for "extra"
    DCI suit is very useful, but very frustrating to make
     
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  13. DJAd

    DJAd Stratics Legend
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    Reforging is OK. I was the same at first but once you get your head around whats going on it does make sense. The only problem is your still battling with the RNG for what mods you get. You could burn a few kits before you even get a usable part. When you do get a nice part you can get some insane overcapped mods and make parts worth millions.
     
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  14. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    It makes a difference when taking spell-damage (things that can't miss) dragons breath does 60 if you're 70 fire, it only does 50 at 75, this is also not counting swamp dragon armor, or bard songs.

    I never really cared much for the DCI increasing refinements, because your chance to get hit, can be flawed by good/bad RNG, the amount of damage you take is always reduced by resistances.
    At all 75s resist you can still do 20 dci on your suit, however at 70 dci & 65 in all resist, the Curse spell reduces all elemental resistances to 55% so spells will kill you quite fast.

    It does depend on what type of suit you have imo. RPD suit for instance, getting hit isn't a bad thing, but since spells don't reflect damage, might as well reduce the damage taken from them.
     
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  15. Varingian

    Varingian Seasoned Veteran
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    Extra resist = less damage taken. That's always a good thing. I only PvM. If you run some variation of an ABC archer resist over DCI is ideal. Perhaps not so much for a dexxer but I only use the plus resist regardless. That DCI is useless when you get hammered with spells. If your dexxer is taking melee damage then you are in close and should be leeching life, mana, etc...

    As far as burning through kits and or hammers for reforging....that can be a drag when the RNG runs cold. But it keeps us BOD runners in business. :)

    We thank you.

    Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2
     
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  16. Felonious Monk

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    Test center really helped me learn a Little more. Iv'e made some fantastic suits quickly and easily on tc. While I never acquire enough runic kits on Baja , I have learned how to and I aint the brightest. ;)
     
  17. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Yeah I keep thinking about TC but everytime I think about stuff there I just think...... wow I'm so wasting time I could be spending doing something productive on my own shard... with such limited time to spend in-game I hate to waste it on a shard that gets wiped so often...
     
  18. Felonious Monk

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    Yes Exactly. I almost printed if you can tear yourself away from your prodo shard. I have over the years habitually set up a house with a soulforge and blacksmith forge. If you recall runics have 30k uses on TC. I setup a fighter and a mage. I am very glad it's always there for me once setup. If you like I could friend you there to ease the time investment.
     
  19. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    I'll have to consider it but of course for now I'm pretty occupied with the invasions.... I still need a dress and doublet....
     
  20. Felonious Monk

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    No worries. I have a house on 2 accounts with the a fore mentioned setup on TC1 available if you choose.
     
    #20 Felonious Monk, Nov 11, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2013
  21. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    To answer the OP. Yes. Helps to makes us feel better about Imbuing and Reforging.

    "Let me see your pinky finger. This might hurt a little bit."
     
    #21 Warpig Inc, Nov 12, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2013
  22. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    I don't think it is the complication, as such, that is the problem - people are mostly smart enough to handle complexity. The fault is there is absolutely reliable internal logic to the armour crafting system, so nobody can look at making something and intuitively know what is good or bad or indifferent to do. The process can be as complicated as it likes if it has an internal logic people can grasp. UO crafting, especially for armour and weapons, completely lacks any consistent principles. Refinements just stacked another bizarre 'system' on top of an already overblown mashup of things.

    It's a cobbled together mess, where some properties randomly appear on a piece of armour because you make it with a funny coloured tool (which nobody can make, apart from some hidden mysterious 'BOD Tradein NPC' who can supply infinite amounts), but that same tool can do more predictable and powerful things if you 'reforge' with it ; cloth, leather and metal can all be just as effective armour as each other ; you need an absolutely specific one of dozens of refinements to make a slight tweak to an armour piece yet other common materials make bigger differences just by being sewn or hammered on top of an existing plain piece (how the hell does THAT work, to enhance a leather tunic I need to use the same amount of a different leather type as I needed to make the thing, which comes out the same weight - no sense at all!).

    I always argue there is a massive fault in any game system if someone new can ask the perfectly reasonable question 'what armour is best for me?' and need long explanations, references to web pages, spreadsheets, and online calculators to get to an answer. It might be mathematically sound, but it's not immersive, it's not fun, and if something fails on those grounds it really should not be in an online RPG where immersion and fun are two of the main points of the game. It's what happens when programmers try do a game designer's job.....
     
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  23. Lien Ragus

    Lien Ragus Journeyman
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    Okie, i just finished a suit for my archer using the all technics if it may help you... lemme try to concisely !! explain the process :

    I had 5 invul refinements in my chests : 1 samurai studded leather, 2 studded leather and 2 chain. I decided to run for a (full) 75 resist suit getting an extra LMC from the inherant ability of the non medeable parts.

    I started to make basic piece for maximizing the resists i needed. Then i reforge the pieces (had to make 5 pieces cause i m using tinker legs) to get HCI on at least 3 of them... preferably the leather ones. Once done, i just use PoF on them (dont forget that part) and start imbuing. I imbued resists to reach 75 on each and a few mods like LMC, HPI, MR, etc...

    Once the suit was done i used the special tool to get 100% chance in enhancing and used a mix of ingots/leater to reach the desired resists. I then head to the blacksmithy in Britain and the tailor in Trinsic to make my refinements ready to use on the pieces.

    On the 5 pieces i ve made i only had 1 with 5 inscreases and 4 with 4. It finally give me a suit with 73/75/75/75/75 (my archer is an elf) and a very good bunch of other mods. adding the other items i had in chest i got mods as follows : HCI 45, LMC 40 (+11 inherant to armor pieces i made), HPI 38, HPR 5, SSI 10, DI 80, MR 10, SR 4 and dex +23... still have little room to improve (if i may find the right jewels) but already a solid suit.

    Tested it in the morning and it s working as intended. I suffer much less from hits or spells (a bit like in mystic stone form) but at the speed of a mounted hunter.

    Hope this can help you a bit,

    Lien Ragus
     
  24. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    Try to make a suit without the Candy Land factor. I'm a big fan of a freakish RNG that can't be scripted around. I can get into a grind that is an end to a means that can't be BOT farmed around. Angles cry when RL cash has to be spent on something that gives a player an advantage over others in any fight. PVP or PVM. The arty reforge tool could of been trumped by a GD potion. Buy it from the store and drink it, and that character can now Tame and control Greater Dragons. Hey how about selling a balm for dexers " it rubs the lotion on it's skin" !!BAMM!! and that character can now use hidden 3rd weapon abilities. In game Have & Have Nots seperation should be related to how much time is spent playing the game (AK not AFK) , and not a wallet size. The tool needs to be removed from the store and earned in game, unscripted. Or great bait to track and bann asshats.

    Craft bag full of basic GM gear. Reforge an uber mod with easy earned runics. Spritzes with two PoF jars that come from the same easy runic reward list. Imbue with mats acquired after a few hours hunter gathering and unraveling. And simply enhance. Without making demons smile
     
    #24 Warpig Inc, Nov 13, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2013
  25. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    I severely questioned the usefulness and practicality of refinements long before they were made live.
    I posted more then a few times about them being over complicated and totally not necessary.
    But the huge majority of people on this board did not agree with me and appeared to want them for no other reason then they were something new to add to the game.
    That and the ridiculous notion that they were tired of only certain materials and certain weapons being the most popular.
    Fools complaining for no other reason then they used to wear plate when they first started playing so it should be brought back again.

    As far as I am concerned refinements still suck and have added nothing of any value to the UO culture. Unless you believe that UO needs more calculators and spreadsheets.
     
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  26. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    The plate and studded change was great. both Very useful changes. if i had to put a number on it... 20 times? more useful than refinements.
     
  27. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    i disagree. i love that their are "extra" mods that you dont really need put can pack into a suit if you want.

    The single frustration with the reforging / shame loot style mod calculation process is that dexter / fighter armor is extremely hard to make.
    Mage you just need "mage stats" w/hpi menue being the hard menue to get on right
    Dexter tho you need 3 menues... expodentially harder.

    Even finding / making armor with simply 8mana and 8stam is extremely difficult.
    (and people wonder why i wont sell a 6mod piece with stam and mana for like 5mil...)
     
  28. Lorax_Pacific

    Lorax_Pacific Lore Master
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    A few points from my spreadsheet of calculations:
    1. Higher starting DCI is better no matter what against an attacker using armor ignore
    2. If the same damage would occur and not AI they balance 70 DCI/65% resist vs. 20DCI/75% resist
    3. Same damage, no AI and either lower DCI proc or divine fury or both then starting higher DCI is marginally better than higher resists
    4. Attacked by caster higher resist is better

    There are so many scenarios like mage weapon, or imbalanced skills knowing exactly what the attacker has against you makes telling exactly what is better impossible.

    -Lorax
     
  29. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    I am not objecting to the 'extra' mods, just that the method you get them has absoutely no internal logic to it. It's a grafted on 'oh, lets have this too' rather than part of a consistently developed process. I don't mind it being hard to make the best equipment - that is how it should be - I object to the huge mess of items, skills, processes, materials, methods and tools needed to get there. It should, and could, be simpler, logical and consistent.
     
  30. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    are we talking about the same game? ;)
     
  31. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    your spreadsheet just pked my scratch paper with numbers scribbled all over it... your spreadsheet must have damage eater...
     
  32. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    i get what you mean. i think it becomes easier when you know exactly what your trying to make. armor / suits that max out properties (while a task to find all the right pieces) only leave a few options. and those options can be weighed by what gear you have available, and the intensity of that gear.

    Heres an example.
    LMC: its available on every gear slot in the game except footwear and sash.
    However, if your building a suit, you only have 5 armor slots out of the 6 for lmc cost (4 if you use mana phasing orb and sneak some in elsewhere) So you just cut your options in half.

    plus we now have all the crazy 7plus mod gear that options up options.
    plus theres so many options that fitting things elsewhere can always be done.

    while more complicated, creating a very good suit, even a high end suit, is easier than it was lets say around 2004 when all we had was loot and straight runics.
     
  33. Lorax_Pacific

    Lorax_Pacific Lore Master
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    Lol. Which point? Maybe my spreadsheet has errors. No damage eater.

    Here is point 1 AI ignore in my spreadsheet. So of course the more DCI the less damage.
    AI_vs_DCI.png

    Here is point 2:
    point2.png

    Here is point 3:
    point3.png

    Point 4 is just that DCI does not apply to casting.

    My spreadsheet in reality should have swing delay based on hit chance, but that is something I hadn't decided how to incorporate. It would be easier to do discrete events with discrete math and the spreadsheet isn't good with that. One of these days out of curiosity maybe Ill do that in matlab and show the simulation result or make an accessory app to combat. Wouldn't that be fun to listen to me ramble about...

    -Lorax
     
    #33 Lorax_Pacific, Nov 13, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2013