1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

Dupers using boats to hide their ill gotten gains ??

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Vexxed, Aug 5, 2008.

  1. Vexxed

    Vexxed Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    1,581
    Likes Received:
    351
    I was out roaming and being quite borred I hit a few areas that I don't think I've actually been to before. To my utter surprise I came accross multiple boats of the same name with full holds in a very quiet area. I decided to spend a few hours training on a golem near them until I got to meet a very interesting individual who prompty filled the hold of one of the boats and then left without a word... The boats are now gone, but I know enough of this person that it REALLY makes me wonder what's in those boats...
     
  2. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,175
    Likes Received:
    0
    what does ill gotten mean?

    is that like .. german or something?
     
  3. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    Gotten, as in acquired.
    Basically, things acquired through "ill" means (cheating/stealing and whatnot)
     
  4. Experimental

    Experimental Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2004
    Messages:
    780
    Likes Received:
    19
    I don't think they use boats to hide their stuff, just maybe to take them from point A to point B.
    They have better ways to hide their stuff.
     
  5. Radun

    Radun Guest

    cavity search!
     
  6. Ashyn

    Ashyn Guest

    And some people use them to store items in if they try to resize their houses. Geeze is this little UO world full of suspiscious minds.
     
  7. Kral

    Kral Guest

    The UO backend is a database, and illegal items are found through SQL Queries.

    Boats will not provide any protection.

    Extra storage, moving houses etc. are all more likely reasons.
     
  8. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2003
    Messages:
    6,405
    Likes Received:
    678
    Are you sure about this?

    Given the troubles they have with tracking items - it would not surprise me if there wasn't a DBMS behind UO.

    I mean, you could run a simple report of select count(*) from items where type = 'Val Runic' every day and once you saw the number jump from 10 to 20 on a shard know right away there was dup going on.

    Given they don't seem to have these basic capabilities leads me to believe their data is not stored in DB capable of simple SQL.
     
  9. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
    Administrator Professional Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Patron

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2006
    Messages:
    5,570
    Likes Received:
    1,835
    I'm agreeing with you on this one......I doubt UO is using a Database for the back end. I'd be more inclined to think that the Server generates reports either automatically or on a query in a easily worked with format say XML for example.
     
  10. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    LOL oh yes... it's JUST that simple!

    have you ever tried doing a select count query against 15 million + records with a select count query?

    now compound that with the fact that UO's database has to be considerably larger than 15 million records.

    Sorry, it's not even close to that easy.
     
  11. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest


    With the amount of data involved with UO, I think there almost has to be a database of some sort, but it's certainly a large database too.
     
  12. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2003
    Messages:
    8,461
    Likes Received:
    583
    You know, it's REALLY funny that a lot of the same people who think it's so simple also think that Stratics should have had everything restored within a week or two, despite having to do drive data recoveries for the Stratics database, retag everything, CONVERT the data to VBB, then start sorting it back into the new boards with new identifiers (the old stratics forums were descrete boards for every game, not one big system), all the while trying to reassociate the posts with their posters.

    Consider that the smallest stratics post was probably many times larger than the code for any single UO in-game item, and there were 440k UO posts & 120k+ user accounts (active, inactive and banned)
     
  13. Halister Marner

    Halister Marner Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,213
    Likes Received:
    11
    I've seen an odd number of boats appearing on coasts lately as well. You'd assume they would be able to find items in boats as easily as items in houses though.
     
  14. Gildar

    Gildar Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,354
    Likes Received:
    4
    And even if it were close to that easy, know that there is a dupe is only a very small part of the problem. Knowing how to reproduce the dupe is another issue, and more difficult.
     
  15. Pickaxe Pete

    Pickaxe Pete Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2000
    Messages:
    1,189
    Likes Received:
    34
    I would very conservatively estimate that there are around 500,000,000 records in the Ultima Online item database.
     
  16. timbeOFbaja

    timbeOFbaja Guest

    Because many of us do a lot of database work. I transferred data between two radically different enterprise systems involving far more records than that and with more complex relationships. It took me a week of parttime work between my other tasks and most of that time was spent learning the new system's structure. I've actually done several these kinds of transfers given the nature of the industry the company I work for is in.

    As for UO, I lack the programming knowledge to indict them too heavily, but I know if they have a database then they can end all these duping problems in a half day's work.
     
  17. Sneaky Que

    Sneaky Que Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,009
    Likes Received:
    41
    I'm going to say (guess) that number is not even close. I would think it would be in the trillions at least.

    *edit*

    Maybe on 2nd thoughts trillions might be a little high (maybe)? Billions though defiantly. Its kinda scary to think about lol...
     
  18. Pawl

    Pawl Guest

    First off, the data base of game items and char info are in files all by them selfs. each per server.. each item in game is given an ID number.

    EASY to run a search string or PROGRAM to find something. (UltraEdit) one hell of a nice program for people to learn with.

    I use it alot also, files i work on are are about 150 megs of account data. per file. 1000's of files stored in folders BY date .

    I can use ultraedit and tell it to search all files in the data base stored info DIR for a address, zip code, Phone number, Name, Age, M/F, Date, cash amount, Check number, or rec number.. anything i put in.. It Gives me file name of item was found in and Line number or number if more and then next file name if any. Yes it takes time, Yes it all the computer does (5 of them total). They runs Searches all day long.

    second, Boats are the best way to hide stuff i would think... Get a new account, 19.95 for game, get 30 free days. Set boats, make copy of key and pass of to real account. 30 days up, account gone, boats still there, as long at someone goes to it once a week.


    people who say, boats used to move from point A to Point B, or using them to resize house, is full of it.. Using a boat to go A to B? "A" being what a house? "B" being boat, Because "C" would be bank or another house.. SO going to a boat is POINTLESS if you can recall, gate to boat, you can to bank or other house! why would you go to a boat????? transfering from account to another account, Think NOT eather It easy to Friend or even co own them, attack a bird, rabbit, anything and log out in house, log on other account and friend them...other char still there cause of timer. DUH!
    AND
    House has storage for just that. boat holds 125 items or 400 lb Not fricking much.. 100 boats won't even hold the normal Logs of wood i have on my step let alone the oak or ash ,ect.. I still from faction vendors, have over 100k of each reg (uselless now) that won't even fit on a boat let alone 100 boats id have to spend a week, packing it to a bank to deed it all up..
     
  19. Simon

    Simon Journeyman
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    2
    Wilki stated in the old forums, that UO is using a text-based-kinda storage for everything, no query-able database. And Items are not able to being reviewed from backups, only if you play the backup on a internal test-shard. Or check the shard live with custom server scripts.
     
  20. Pawl

    Pawl Guest


    And text based storage is the EASYES to search, Just takes time if large file or files!

    Using right program makes all the diffrences. UltraEdit, BitEDIT, and few others. can do it easy....

    Better read again if you can find it, Items are able to be found from back ups. thats how they find then now! they even posted Sorta, that they went thru back up long time ago to catch the first set of dupers!
     
  21. Anakena

    Anakena Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    324
    Likes Received:
    2
    The real duping, an exact copy of an item with the same ID, is not possible in UO as the system prevents the existence of two items with same ID on the same subserver.

    The dupings occurring these last years were all exploits involving the creation of the same item with a new ID. Hence the use of X-sharding as X-sharding involves the deletion in the shard of origin and recreation i the shard of destination. It was the same ID with the changeling exploit (fixed long ago) as the changelings were creating (new ID) new items copying the items people were wearing.

    So database comparison is not possible against these forms of dupings. In order to track duped items EA had probably to log some activities and track a particular string of action and then list the ID of items created during this process.
     
  22. bokke

    bokke Guest

    And the state of UO paranoia continues.
    Part 21112232 at a forum thread right here.
    :next:
     
  23. Speetz13

    Speetz13 Guest

    Why not when your counting numbers of similar item types and not similar item Ids and such? Even im Xsharded more would still be made somewhere, and the number of that particular item would have increased more than it should have.

    <quote>So database comparison is not possible against these forms of dupings. In order to track duped items EA had probably to log some activities and track a particular string of action and then list the ID of items created during this process.<quote>
     
  24. Simon

    Simon Journeyman
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    2
    not if it's being stored in one file items.db like

    <item ID><name><loc X><loc Y><loc Z><properties><tags><attached to container ID/tile ID>\n
    <item ID><name><loc X><loc Y><loc Z><properties><tags><attached to container ID/tile ID>\n
    <item ID><name><loc X><loc Y><loc Z><properties><tags><attached to container ID/tile ID>\n
    <item ID><name><loc X><loc Y><loc Z><properties><tags><attached to container ID/tile ID>\n
    <item ID><name><loc X><loc Y><loc Z><properties><tags><attached to container ID/tile ID>\n
    <item ID><name><loc X><loc Y><loc Z><properties><tags><attached to container ID/tile ID>\n
    <item ID><name><loc X><loc Y><loc Z><properties><tags><attached to container ID/tile ID>\n
    <item ID><name><loc X><loc Y><loc Z><properties><tags><attached to container ID/tile ID>\n
    <item ID><name><loc X><loc Y><loc Z><properties><tags><attached to container ID/tile ID>\n

    and a few gigabyte large. ;)
     
  25. dragean

    dragean Guest

    from a another forum, on another website.


    "How they're hiding it and how we can get a piece
    Well, If theres one thing I've learned it's if they won't share it, take it by force. And so I did some investigating.

    The dupers are hiding barbed kits, val hammers, bods etc on boats. It became evident when a billionaire player I came across showed me his "rares collection" in his home. I noticed a ship in a corner with a prefix I'd seen in my travels as an Idoccer. Indeed i also noticed a large number of ship keys stacked in a pirate themed room but the room itself inaccessible. so when the time came to leave, I stealthed. I left my character in his home for hours and watched tv until he returned to the house but this time on a different character I'd seen in luna a few times. he opened the door and i followed. He recalled off a key and i recalled off another. I landed on a boat in fel with 15 barbed kits with the prefix I'd seen all along.


    The moral is, the dupers are hiding it on boats placed by dummy accounts but accessible by other characters. This guy was sloppy but i think we all ought to be breaking into boats and homes as best we can to get our fair share from the greedy ones who wouldnt share."
     
  26. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2007
    Messages:
    699
    Likes Received:
    0
    So... you steal his duped items then YOUR account is banned for posession of those same items. Good plan.

    That's kinda like stealing counterfeit $100's, you still can't spend em anyway without putting yourself in jail.

    Safe Travels, Sam
     
  27. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    3,209
    Likes Received:
    9
    sounds like a wild eyed conspiracy theory to me! thieves often have hundreds of boats from ages long past.
     
  28. RoycroftLS

    RoycroftLS Guest

    It's probably just a viral marketing campaign for the new pirates expansion.
     
  29. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    I think stealing should be allowed
    Thieves and Ninjas aren't playable in the current state
     
  30. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    I don't like the possession rule either
    What it implies is that they have no idea who actually duped the item and no means at which to track how and when items are created. They just mysteriously pop up with no means of auditing at all apparently. But these methods would have needed to be in place when the game was initially created , if they aren't now , there's no hope 11 years later
     
  31. Ni-

    Ni- Guest

    Are boats even linked to accounts? There doesn't seem to be any kind of relationship to the char that placed the boat. If you have access to the key then you have access to the boat. Kind of like houses used to be. Even so, if they are and were placed by temp accts, that might be sufficient to hide dupes. Especially if all searches are based of chars/accts and not items themselves.
     
  32. Ni-

    Ni- Guest

    Maybe when an item is created that account descriptor should be assigned to that item. Not on a player viewable basis, but like a private attribute. This wouldn't help against trial accounts, however. If the duping occured during shard transfer, then should Trial accounts not be allowed to transfer? That is assuming that they are...
     
  33. miss uo

    miss uo Guest

    Not to hack this thread or anything, but reading this just reminded me of thieves back in the day stealing boat keys, and proceeding to take your boat.
     
  34. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    There should be restrictions put on trials accounts
     
  35. Lord Kynd

    Lord Kynd Guest



    really a text based- kinda storage ???
    hmm like a normal .txt document ?
    which are easy to search inside.
     
  36. Lord Kynd

    Lord Kynd Guest


    there should be big restrictions placed on trial accounts, but that will only solve prolly 40% of the problems, 60 % the people who sell stuff for cash don't care if they have 1 accounts or 500 as long as they make money.
     
  37. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,442
    Likes Received:
    323
    If the table is indexed -- which it should be -- then the query shouldn't be that difficult, particularly if it's run on a single server's database. Since they are likely backing everything up during the morning maintenance period, they don't even have to run the query on the live database. And if they're running it on a system with a bit of power, it is all the more swift.
    Even if you're saying give me a count of all items created before today, and a count of all items since, and then sort it by item type and do a count by item type, and we're talking about 15 million non-indexed items, it still would be a matter of a few hours on a decent system.

    But that's presuming that you don't decide to look at particular things that are unlikely to be produced in a large number. I mean, okay, so would you look at the number of oil cloths in the world? No. But you might look at the Valorite runics. Would you look at the number of exceptional longswords in the world? Probably not. But you might look at the number of Crimson Cinctures.

    So as you narrow down your supposed 15 million item database, and reduce it by item type that you're looking for, it becomes much easier to look for stuff.

    I'm guessing you're running on an old version of FoxPro? Or Access 97? Because, to be frank, yes, it IS that easy.
     
  38. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,442
    Likes Received:
    323
    Per server? Because, remember, the so-called item database is unique per server.

    Let's say a server has 20,000 players on it (just taking a crack... I don't think ANY of them have that many anymore... heh) with an average of 75 items in the bank. That's 1,500,000 items.

    Now let's say they all own a house, with an average of 1,000 items.

    That's 20,000,000. We're at just about 21,500,000 items. Now, yes, there's mobs, which should be in a separate database as the game is moving along. And yes, this could vary by shard. And yes, the averages could be higher or lower. But dynamic items should DEFINITELY be in a separate table from the STATIC items, which would mean statics shouldn't count.

    Now, all of this presumes that UO is operating on a serious database with a good structure and decent programming behind it. It's not. We can all guess all we want, but it's fairly obvious that it's not, and it's also fairly obvious they haven't made much by the way of server-side improvements in the ten years the game's been around.

    Though, I will say if we're still dealing with everything being text-based storage, it's amazing the game continues to function. It's also no wonder, if that's true, that we continue to see dupes.
     
  39. Amber Moon

    Amber Moon Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    367
    Likes Received:
    0
    I wouldn't be so sure of that. At the time UO was created, the databases used were typically text flat files for storage and sat with similar structures in memory. That is to say, no unique item IDs.

    I know it might make one shutter to believe it is still that way, but it may be.
     
  40. Vexxed

    Vexxed Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    1,581
    Likes Received:
    351
    HOLY COW people....

    3 points..

    1) If you don't work for EA however you THINK their system may or maynot work is IRRELEVANT...

    2) People using Boats for storage aren't that common.... and the DETAILS of the situation suggested other things... Ex... Seeing ungoldly amounts of Runic Hammer & Token icons flying above the person in questions head as he unloaded to the boat

    3) Information is power.... just knowing that this is perhaps out there sent many people out to search and confirm / deny what I saw and at the very least I'm guessing soemoen from EA probably read this and that was all I was aiming at.
     
  41. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2003
    Messages:
    6,405
    Likes Received:
    678
    Sure it is. Just get some good indexes and something better than SQL Server or My SQL.

    Sorry - I work with customers with hundreds of millions of records in tables and terabytes of data. Much more than UO could ever fathom.

    I'll bet most of their stuff is stored in flat files or some equally archaic technology. Why do you think they need to 'scan' people's accounts? lol - they are scanning files.
     
  42. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2003
    Messages:
    8,461
    Likes Received:
    583
    And, who are you gonna pay (and with what money) to write a new client to actually be able to use the new files?

    You're proving your lack of understanding right there.

    These aren't stand-alone databases. These are databases that MUST work with legacy software, software that every attempt to modernize has been met with stubborn refusal by the userbase to change.

    What do you expect them to do? convert a copy the item database to a modern, more easily searchable, form, each time they want to look for dupes? That would probably take longer than just running scans of the inefficient older file types.

    What EA really needs to do is find some way of writing a totally new UO game (from the server level on up), that the items & characters themselves could have their data imported to. But that would take much more money and time than what they put into KR.
     
  43. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest


    That makes sense to me. I think you're probably right.
     
  44. Pickaxe Pete

    Pickaxe Pete Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2000
    Messages:
    1,189
    Likes Received:
    34
    My estimate was very simple, 100k accounts times 5000 items per. I think with how packratty people are in UO, 5000 items per account is a good average. I'm talking game-wide, of course, not per-server.

    125x6 (banks) =750
    125x6 (backpacks) =750
    125x6 (beetles) =750
    10x6 (worn) =60
    House (full) =3000
    ----------------
    .............. 5310

    Times 100,000 (approx.)

    FIVE HUNDRED MILLION! :)

    This does not even count all of the 'storage' on vendors or the BOATS under discussion here. Or seventh character slots.

    Most remaining players have a keep or castle per account for that matter.
     
  45. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    6,032
    Likes Received:
    145
    A fellow FoxPro user?!?!? Hmm.. probably not. I doubt they use FoxPro since you can't index. That would be a LONG query.

    I really LOL when I look at people saying "this is how their servers and data storage is set up". No one really knows unless they work for EA, but it's a safe bet that the data is saved in an sql database of some sort.

    I love it when people try to act smarter than they are.
     
  46. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,442
    Likes Received:
    323
    And you refering to the need to write it to work with a new client proves yours. The database files would be server-side, and yeah, it's going to take work to update the way information is stored, but there should be a FINITE number of processes that need to write information into the databases.

    Who'm I going to pay? The same people my current subscription fees go to. And with what money? PLEASE. If Mister Sarcastic Disaster, who posted without numbers about how well UO's subscription base really is doing IS accurate, there's no shortage of money at the moment.

    Uh, back to that whole lack of understanding thing. The CLIENT software doesn't mean a damned thing to the SERVER software. The ONLY thing the CLIENT and SERVER have to do is transmit information back and forth and store it. If the UO CLIENT writes ANYTHING directly to a database on the SERVER, then, frankly, the game's plug needs to be pulled and its developers fired.

    No. I expect them to modernize their server-side software as opportunities arise. Let's be frank here. This isn't a RECENT failure. It's a CONTINUED failure.

    Nah. They've tried twice. Any future try will fall flat on its face because, frankly, EA has tarnished the Ultima franchise beyond recognition.
     
  47. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,442
    Likes Received:
    323
    Your estimates aren't estimates. Your "estimates" are assuming that every person has six characters on every account, and that the banks of each of those characters is completely full beyond belief. You're also presuming that every person has an 18x18 house, every character is riding around on a full pack beetle, and so on.

    You're not talking about averages. You're talking about fully-loaded. And damned few people are.

    Even if I say, "Yeah, we'll multiple my estimate by six characters per account, but remove the housing item count," you're still talking about less than 100,000 items.

    But whatever. You seem to think that 100,000 accounts exist per server, which is a ludicrous assertion. I guarantee the game doesn't have in excess of 1,000,000 players. It's got maybe 100,000 players total on what is it 15, 18, 20 shards? I don't even know the count anymore, but it's a spread out population. My estimate of 20k players per server is a highball.

    The only accurate picture anyone should look at is a PER SERVER picture, not the totallity of UO. Because I guarantee you that Great Lakes and Napa Valley look nothing alike in daily activity.
     
  48. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,442
    Likes Received:
    323
    Uh... I'm pretty sure that some of us are commenting on how their servers SHOULD be set up in a responsible environment.

    Clearly, EA and OSI did not have the most responsible of environments (otherwise, how the hell do you loose the original artwork for the game?), but in the ten years the game's been around, it's clearly not been improved. And that's IRRESPONSIBLE.

    Because some of this stuff being talked about -- while taking time to implement -- would alleviate MANY of their concerns and issues with duping (and other areas too).
     
  49. phoenix11

    phoenix11 Guest

    I used lots of boats planted them in T2A way back before moving crates, When I upgraded my tower to A keep, As far as those Ill gotten gains I think those receint bans talk tons, My opinion, You were tagged each time you turned in an item, For you people that wanted A dupe checker think you got your wish, Turn in X amount of dupes set off flags, easyer to find out were to check that way, And seems like checks were done over 10 val hamers, LOL.
     
  50. Inspector

    Inspector Guest

    I dont think that they would have to pay anybody to get a new stable client, they could just take the code that the free shard guys wrote and use that game client, its waaaaaaaayyy more stable, you can run searches, its alot more user friendly... etc. etc. I mean why would they have to pay for something that those guys pretty much ripped off from EA long ago? Just take it back.