1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

Eliminite the stealing skill

Discussion in 'UO Spiels N Rants' started by GalenKnighthawke, Jan 8, 2009.

  1. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    6,641
    Likes Received:
    1,163
    Way back in the days before Trammel, thieves were probably even more of a problem than PKs were. The rewards for the first "Clean Up Britannia" turn-ins were blessed because thieves would hang around the turn-in points and steal the rewards from players' packs as they spawned (thus causing a pattern of items being needlessly blessed which continues to this very day). Thieves would loot house keys and dry loot your house with their blue friends, thus leading to the often buggy and difficult system of house security and lockdowns and all that stuff. Disarm thieves, surrounded by blue healers, caused a lot of issues as well.

    And, thus, thieves were nerfed for the good of the game, due to their own behavior. And they have not stopped whining about it since.

    The manufacturers have tried to throw them bones, in order to preserve the presence in UO of a character class with a long tradition in fantasy literature, which they have simultaneously taken advantage of and viciously attacked. They say they hate to pick stuff up off the ground in Doom, yet there they are, camping the Inquisitor's Resolution to such a degree that eventually EA had to eliminate the use of the camping skill in dungeons, thus effectively turning that skill from nearly useless to entirely useless. They treated non-PvP thieves so badly that eventually Stratics had to split the forums. Regine asked them for ideas to become more viable that didn't involve getting rid of insurance, and they responded by proposing to get rid of or nerf insurance.

    This is, of course, not a rant or anything, just a way of eliminating multiple problems in the game that are very long-standing.

    -Galen's player
     
  2. Dragkiris

    Dragkiris Visitor

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2008
    Messages:
    326
    Likes Received:
    0
    No they removed the camping from dungens because of the script stealing of the inquis and lamp.
     
  3. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    1,215
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thieves have their place in the game..... but they will never be allowed to destroy the game the way they did in the past. Which is why most old school thieves will never be happy.

    Their no risk, all reward playstyle was a mistake.

    Instead of eliminating the stealing skill, it would be easier to just remove some worthless troll's Mod title.
     
  4. Millie

    Millie Guest

    Amen
     
  5. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Secret Society

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2001
    Messages:
    35,539
    Likes Received:
    908
    *hands Colter a tissue*...la
     
  6. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,779
    Likes Received:
    434
    Firstly, past is past. Few of today's thieves even stole a house key, let alone remember about disarm robberies. A lot of players did bad things to each other back in the old days, but that shouldn't mean the current thief players get treated like junk. I think it's time to let old grudges lie and move on :)

    Secondly, you would need to have stolen from players and from Doom to understand that they are hugely different in playstyle and appeal. It was inevitable that PvP thieves wouldn't like doom or the other items as much as stealing from players, and I'll try and explain why.

    I steal from anywhere, and while I've made a lot of gold over the years selling the basic Doom items, it isn't a challenge. You recall (or walk) in at the appropriate time, hit the steal macro, target an item and off you go with it. No boss pops up to protect the item, so you can run around in newbie clothing (as I do), without any supporting skills, and get the items with ease. It's exceptionally dull, simple and simply doesn't compare to stealing from players. It's no harder than buying reagents and turning them into commodity deeds. Your only issue is scripters and other players getting in first, these days you can walk in and come out loaded.

    You don't need to sneak alongside the brazier, take a quick peek inside it and then wait for a favorable moment to make your move. Getaways aren't an issue - you can clear monsters away or just run and hold down hide and stealth out. And if you go back again, no boss or player will remember your name. You won't make a second run and be met with a burly group of PvPers keen to smote your backside. In short, it's easy, boring and repetitive. No player of any class would find it exciting to steal in Doom after they got over the "ooh got a level 8" rush in week 1. I'm still enjoying player thefts many years after I started, because it's always different. And monsters in Doom are rubbish at RPing, which is what my rogue does best...

    I don't steal from players to upset them, to get lots of money for scrolls or anything like that. I know some do, I wouldn't deny that. But I managed to protect myself, and my virtue following guild regularly hunted down the robbers of Britannia and had a lot of fun with it. In champ spawn areas a player can be PKd as well as robbed, and at least the thief can be picked out and more easily dispatched. Champ guilds with half a brain are ready and able to defend against a thief, and when they're not, they'll be working more spawns later.

    Now stealing from monsters has been added back in, in a way that is fun for players. While it isn't player theft, at least it gives thieves a product which is in demand that they can get while at a champ spawn or in Fel. Now why couldn't that have been coded in to come from players as a random steal item? Give players something to hunt a thief down for, but not having to "nerf insurance". I'll keep my post sweet by not saying what I'd like to do to insurance in Fel ;)

    But as you can see from the above, there is a simple option for thieves which doesn't nerf insurance. Naturally you'd have to restrict it so nobody could abuse the system to steal from their mates, but it would have been worth trying IMO.

    Some players have also suggested that some of the gold a player spends on insurance could also be "stolen" from the player, and the incentive is there for the mark to kill the thief and get the gold back. The gold doesn't need to be taken directly from the mark's own hoarde, if that's too touchy a proposition. Just a similar thing to being able to random steal gold from a monster, that sort of thing.

    So to say the skill should be deleted is simply defeatist, especially as I took minutes to think of and write down 2 suggestions. More could be done to make stealing a skill that's fun for ALL - enhance the experience of stealing in Doom with guardians, make quests for players to steal from an imaginary NPC household and get a reward, you name it. Give detectives something to chase down in Fel too with quests or whatever you like. And fix up Fel thieves so they have more options that don't always involve taking from a players possessions.

    Because the truth is, if a player wants to avoid thieves they can do so easily. And players are keen to get PS without having to fight, so stealing is an option for them that enables them to undermine a large guild who would dominate too easily otherwise. Just as they are keen to decorate their homes with stolen semis and the like. Deleting the stealing skill is quite simply a crazy way to deal with the problems here. A bit of thought, a little love and the rogue could be a fantastic class. But if the devs start deleting skills because they aren't sure how to handle the class, we'll end up with an ever decreasing skill list :D You can't seriously think that would make UO a better game. Especially as a RPer. Having a lawless land where one can be PKd but not stolen from just wouldn't make sense. Seeing skill after skill vanish because the devs run out of ideas isn't the answer either.

    I think the game would be much better if players set aside their gripes about classes, especially ones that stretch back years, and try to think together, what would make the game better for all. Not just themselves.

    Wenchy
     
  7. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Secret Society

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2001
    Messages:
    35,539
    Likes Received:
    908
    The point you are missing...this thread was created because I created a thread in Uhall that suggested that the taming skill be removed.

    You have been trolled. And by the length of your reply, I'd say it was done very well...la
     
  8. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    1,215
    Likes Received:
    0
    *hands Rico the whole tissue box*

    That might last you a few days considering all the crying you do over the lose of your worthless leg humping playstyle.
     
  9. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Secret Society

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2001
    Messages:
    35,539
    Likes Received:
    908
    Really? When and where have you watch me play...in-game?...la
     
  10. Wilde1

    Wilde1 Guest


    You've made 3 responses to the thread so far, I'd say you've been trolled very very well, heh. (ok, he got me once too, hehe)
     
  11. Jusdon

    Jusdon Guest

    fine troll me too then, as I played in the old days when it was fel and fel alone and as much as I hated to be stolen from, I loved to hunt them down and kill them after they did so. I once tracked and killed a thief for about 4 hours solid as we traded back and forth his jester hat. he'd steal it, I'll kill and take it, and so on an on... it was great fun and the smart players then did not keep things on them any longer than necessary they did not wish to lose. the risk of PK or a rogue was too high. The up side was the overpowered weapons of today did not factor in much outside of guild wars with very specific rules you hoped would be honored as no player would risk a weapon of Force or Vanquish to a PvP kill. The GM smiths were god then when it came to making money and mine made tons... so much for yesteryear, but leave the Rogues alone and give them some challanges is my vote for UO. I agree insurance in Fel should go away - give the old timers where chaos was the rule and that made UO the success it is today a place to play the game of old. When you want to PvM or RP without risk of PK or Thief you can stay in the other lands... my 2 or maybe 3 GP given the inflation in UO... :)
     
  12. ScottishHero

    ScottishHero Journeyman
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2009
    Messages:
    238
    Likes Received:
    5
    I agree with Colter - I wanna play a Game where I always win and even if im stupid I cant be proven wrong. Who wants RISK in a game, where is the fun? I wanna be able to sit in my house and look at my rarez.

    Best Game.

    ;)
     
  13. ScottishHero

    ScottishHero Journeyman
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2009
    Messages:
    238
    Likes Received:
    5
    Heh...

    I posted fairly early and thus it turned into a bit of a flame, not my intention.

    Ill try and word my point differently...

    Ultima Online is a form of entertainment, its a game that we've all invested alot of time into, perhaps even money, however lets not forget its a form of entertainment, as your xbox, your ps3, your wii and your TV is. The great thing for me (and I assume alot of you) is that Ultima Online gives us choices, I dont need to follow the exact road of every player like alot of MMOs make you do, choice is a big part of UO.

    Now, the idea of deleting the stealing skill to me is pointless, its the same as me suggesting barding should be deleted as it too was once used by many players as a form of cheating (Not stealin/scamming etc but arguably un fair play!). Now, on to my point, I dunno about you but im a movie lover, I love all films, but the people who argue that stealing is a low moral profesion I ask you - Did you enjoy the Oceans films? Dirty Rotten Scoundrels? The Italian Job and so many others? We're you caught up in the magic of the characters and the steal/chase. If so - so we're we. We few that played thieves and didnt follow the Moongate trash of "LOLZ I STOLE YOUR BANDIEZ I BEST THIEF" were caught up in a profesion where playing on your toes and constantly being alert rewarded you.

    The skill set and player base can be looked down upon, but the term "Variety is the spice of life" applies to UO. If you want to play with all tamers, all noble warriors of the virtues then ok, but dont limit me to your playstyle. You have a facet where thieves cant harm you, and even if you play the facet of thieves you have methods so we cant touch anything you own - stealing has been eliminated in a sense, stop dragging up memories of a time where we had it good and raining on our parade, the world changed, and while you may think it was for the better that dosent mean we all need to agree.

    Your opinions are your own, but myself and Rico are not wrong for having ours.
     
  14. Duskofdead

    Duskofdead Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2008
    Messages:
    575
    Likes Received:
    16
    I didn't mind, really.
     
  15. Duskofdead

    Duskofdead Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2008
    Messages:
    575
    Likes Received:
    16
    My couple of gold pieces on this topic:

    1) No, I do not think that stealing should be eliminated. However I do think that anything you can get from stealing should be droppable for non-thieves; just perhaps much more difficult to get from killing monsters than by stealing it. Then again this is not particular to stealing, I have issues with the way loot is distributed in the game in general-- for instance, I think the 10% damage req. in champ spawns to get anything really screws well..... everyone who isn't a tamer, bluntly. People who wind up having to play support roles (like mages who can't EV around fairies or other mixed spawn, and wind up having to heal people's dragons or rezz slain players throughout the battle) get crap on a stick. I am not a big fan of "rolling this class is the one and exclusive way to accomplish x goal of getting x drop." I think that's just a recipe for sameness where all of us have exactly the same alts. (i.e. tamer... thief....treasure hunter..)

    2) The point a LOT of people seemed to miss from the OP I think is.... the point is not "punishing thieves for what happened in the past." The point is, if you give thieves relative open world stealing freedom (things like dropping item insurance just for stealing, or the ability to player steal in Trammel, or whatever) it has always, was always, and will always be ABUSED. Not just used, but abused. That's how it was in the old days where you had to constantly monitor that players getting too near you weren't in a death robe, because if they were, you knew they were going to try to steal your reagent bag, ship, or house key. And by the time the guards responded they would have already banked whatever they stole from you, and lost nothing. Moral of the story? Stealing, like PvP, DOES need to be regulated and restricted. When it's not, it gets abused to such a level that the game stops being fun and starts being aggravating for everyone who is not a thief. (Again..... a similar case could be made regarding tamers at the moment.)
     
  16. FionanPac

    FionanPac Journeyman
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2008
    Messages:
    192
    Likes Received:
    1
    I have been a thief since my first day in UO! I have destroyed player run city, looted houses, hijacked boats. I have stolen arties, house deeds, checks (when you could), jewels, weaps, armor. YOU name IT I have stole it! People call being a thief useless but it is no more useless then creating a mage or having a swordsman... it is part of the game and a class that you can play. Did some people go to excess... yes they did. Now we can't steal whatever we want and you all have your insurance. So now all you little pink bunny rabbit loving, fluffy cloud sitting people can enjoy a time in UO where you are safe from us thieves. Just know all these changes haven't stopped thieves we just become more creative. If you really want to stop us... stop being stupid. We got screwed by OSI putting in insurance and giving you that option so take advantage of it. I would rather steal it from you then have some speed hacking mage kill you and take it by force.