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[Discussion] Europa Gold Cloth and Tangle Cloth Discussion

Discussion in 'UO Rares Collector' started by Assia Penryn, Aug 6, 2013.

  1. Assia Penryn

    Assia Penryn The Sleeping Dragon
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    To the Rares Community,

    I may be a moderator, but I'm a 100% homegrown human and thus mistakes happen. I don't know everything and when it comes to the origins of some of the cloths I am uneducated. I was told that these items were part of the DOG DUPE collection by a couple of people.

    I'd really appreciate if those in the community would help give me an answer to its origin. There is a ban on dog dupe items and if it turns out that gold cloth is from that, it will be banned too. I'm not asking to debate the ban, just to learn the origin of this cloth so that I can continue to do my best to be as fair as possible. If it isn't a dog dupe, please provide how it came into being.

    Just so folks don't freak out. Should the cloth be determined to be a dog dupe... any current/recent posts selling or buying them will be removed and if the item contains additional items, they will be sent a PM and asked to please repost minus the cloth/tailored items. There will be no infractions given for current posts.

    I know there are folks on both sides of the aisle on this ban. I know it isnot be popular with some. I'm asking that you please do not bring that into this thread. Thank you.

    Assia



    P.S. Soon, I will be asking for folks who see/have a doggy duped item to contact me as I will be compiling a VISUAL guide of all the dog dupe items as well as asking the community for a complete list. My hope is that only will a visual guide help educate folks on what is and isn't a dog dupe, but help folks understand exactly what is not allowed on the forums.
     
  2. Multi Dwagon

    Multi Dwagon Lore Keeper
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    Hello there,

    I can confirm that Ive looted quite some eu golden cloth out of a castle idoc on europa some months ago:<
     
  3. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    im not an expert on doggy dupes, i know the original cloth was from when you could cut up gold royal guard sashes, and maybe some other items. from how the doggy dupe worked id be surprised if some europa cloth wasnt replicated, but the majority of it is from regular duping i would think.

    In my mind, with the variety of items now considered "rares" doggy dupes should just be taken off the banned list. i see no difference in that exploit vrs other exploit items or bugged items that are no longer creatable but commonly sold on the forums.

    honestly what bothers me about europa cloth isnt that it could have possibly been created by the doggy dupe, but that its such an easy item to "regular" dupe in mass quantity, as we can see by the random castle falling with thousands and thousands of cloth. we the most recent escapade of duping, cloth seems to be a decent target, as you can fit a huge stack in a backpack.

    P.S. definitely no ill will towards you Multi by the way, just my take on one of the many aspects of the exceedingly complicated world of rares :)
     
    #3 Smoot, Aug 6, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2013
  4. SoulWeaver

    SoulWeaver King of The Bearded Ladies
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    It's all dog duped... theirs 10s of 1,000s out in the market a few idocs fell with stacks of stuff. As far as it being illegal in game. I don't think thats the case. I know ethereal clothes get deleted.
     
  5. DJAd

    DJAd Stratics Legend
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    What's a dog dupe?
     
  6. The Scandinavian

    The Scandinavian Certifiable
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    Hi there,

    cloth come from Europa member of the Royal Britannian guard sashes.
    They were handed out two maybe three times in events and I would say that the total of handed out sashes is maybe 100.
    Sashes from the last bunch was not cuttable. When it was discovered that it was possible to cut the sashes the price for sashes went up very fast.I remeber that one of the Europa guys that bought many was Hemi.

    I have been told that there are a few tricks to know if you have real cloth but I guess its better to not say it here.
    :eyes:

    Long time ago I manage to buy a few yards at high rate but I have still not made anything because its totally worthless to me now.

    I have no idea how it was duped.



    Regards
    The Scandinavian
     
  7. The Scandinavian

    The Scandinavian Certifiable
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    Well,

    I realise now that you are talking about how the dupe was made.
    Why does it make a difference if it was doggy duped compared to other exploit?


    Regards
    The Scandinavian
     
  8. Deaol

    Deaol Certifiable
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    The "Tangle" cloth as it has now been known by was actually introduced to the game way back on pacific. A tub used in a event produced this hue and wasn't removed right away. I actually have several items that were dyed this hue using the tub (including holiday wreaths etc)

    Later on people who had robes/cloaks other clothing stashed that dyed them this hue "doggy duped" the crap out of them, the cloth become very noticeable when it was released for sale on GL by packrat.

    And then through the last 3 years the cutup cloth was mass duped with the numerous exploits that were available with all the recent pushed out and untested/debugged publishes.
     
    #8 Deaol, Aug 6, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2013
  9. Blue Fly

    Blue Fly Lore Master
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    I always found it odd that glacial items, colored cloths, colored wepons, etc were allowed; but ethy clothing etc were delete on site and unpostable... Should really be all or nothing in regards to EA and Stratics. Never saw the point to drawing a line in the sand, yet still have grey area.
     
    yars likes this.
  10. Zhuge

    Zhuge Journeyman

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    Now I know we all know there was some and it was very rare and hard to obtain years back..

    During rares fest if players remember there was tens of thousands of it coming in and being sold, which we can easily assume it has been heavily duped.

    So now its pretty easy to come by and lots on the market for sale, but yeah I would guess its 99.9% duped now days.
     
  11. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    I think all "doggy dupe" items should be removed from the banned list from stratics.
    We can confirm through Mesanna most everything has been duped in this game at one time or another.
    There were a limited number of sashes that were cut into cloth. There is now yards and yards of the cloth.
    If it were doggy duped or duped in some other way shouldn't really matter should it?
    I never understood why we voted against allowing "doggy dupe" items when we allow everything else.
    How many singing balls, two story statues, and other items have been duped to hell? We still sell those.
    I "missed out" on the doggy dupe time in UO history. I didn't know it was happening until after it was fixed.
    I don't know what was duped that way and what was not, except for what I am told here is a "doggy dupe"
     
  12. Assia Penryn

    Assia Penryn The Sleeping Dragon
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    Alright. Let me provide some more info. We know that duping has gone on periodically throughout the years. Duping is the process of taking an item and making an exact copy. Such as taking a 2-story statue and making another one with the same name, graphic, etc. It is a duplicate. Many, many items have been duplicated and as far as rares/event items go, we as players have no full-proof method to tell the duplicates from the originals. The vendor method does not appear to work for event items as far as we've tested. We know things have been duped because there are for example 20 items in existence where only 10 were given out or we have multiple items where the items was a unique item previously. Now there are many items listed in a post by Tomas (a previous moderator). These are the items the community widely accepts as having been duped. Since we as moderators can not prove who has the real and who has a duplicate, they are allowed on this forum with the warning posted for folks to be aware.

    Now onto to what is know as "Doggy dupes". Many years ago, an exploit occurred with the release of an item in-game. The method allowed folks to duplicate items on character paperdolls or vendor paperdolls, including those held in their hands. These included paperdolls not under their control such as in someone else's house or those standing at the bank. The exploit did not produce an exact copy of the object as a standard dupe does. It instead reproduced an object with the same graphic, but they lacked the event item name. This exploit was abused in mass and murdered the rarity and desirability of the items they were duplicating. The original rares had been highly desirable and thusly very expensive to obtain based on how eye-catching and brilliant their unique colors. The items that were created are still around today and include man items such as glacial spellbooks, glacial daggers, glacial butcher knives, ethereal clothing, some two-tone weapons, etc. I've only heard of ethereal clothing being deleted.

    Anyone can tell the difference between the dog dupes and the originals with 100% accuracy. Several years ago, the community voted and the ban on these particular type of dupes was put in place and they haven't been allowed since.

    Now, a couple people have told me that europa gold cloth and tangle came from a dog dupe. An item that was copied and then cut into cloth. I thought that the gold cloth was from cutting up britannian guard sashes... the ones europa got as they were that color. I have very little doubt that europa gold cloth was duped ti the sky as many things were... but the question is was their origin from the doggy dupe.

    I hope that clarifies a bit of history. As moderators we want to be fair, so if we've been allowing items that are from the banned list... we want to fix that.
     
  13. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    The cloth was definitely doggy duped. It's called doggy dupe because it involves the use of the crystallized dog from the peerless boss Travesty. The dog is a mimic or shape shifter and for a small window of time you were able to kill the dog and loot the items/clothing he had on when he mimic'd another character or NPC. The robe from bedlam is one example of a never released colored robe suddenly being in the hands of the players.
    Any item that could be held or worn up to the point where they removed the ability to loot the dogs was duped in this manner.
    I don't think even the most respectable of traders cares anymore about doggy dupes.
    Before banning the sale of the cloth perhaps a new vote should be placed to see if everyone still feels the same way. After all, it was quite some time ago.
     
  14. Blue Fly

    Blue Fly Lore Master
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    I say if EA and UO/Mythic cant stop it why should Stratics be the moderator? If its OK to have and sell in UO it should be OK to sell and buy in Stratics. Honestly who doesn't know all this cloth duped? Surely anyone who has some got it at an idoc, right? lol
     
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  15. Assia Penryn

    Assia Penryn The Sleeping Dragon
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    I know this is a very heated issue for some folks. I'm not looking to change the current policy at the moment. Perhaps in the future we can address that.

    All I want to know is the origin of the europa gold cloth and the tangled cloth so they can be treated appropriately as per the current forum rules. I'm attempting to be fair and I don't want to warn folks for some dog duped items and not others.

    Now I've heard the source of gold cloth originally was the brit guard sashes. If it came from the dog dupe, was it from dog duping the sashes or another item. If another item from that time period, which item was it so I can attempt to find it and confirm?

    I've heard tangle cloth was a Pacific tub fiasco, but not the dog dupe. Does anyone have a different explanation?

    Again please remember... I'm only looking for DOG DUPING origins... not other duping. I do highly agree Europa gold cloth has been duped, but so have lots of other rares. I just need to know the original origin.
     
  16. Zhuge

    Zhuge Journeyman

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    I am sure you have heard of the stories of players cutting "tangles" up and making robes and such.. most people whom are selling the Tangle colored cloth have them type of stories, this is the first time I myself have heard of a Tangle colored dye tub.

    There has been many people selling lots of the Tangle colored cloth on Atlantic and other shards, but in massive stock.. and no mention of the origins being from a dye tub.. if you have ever yourself witnessed or asked one of the players whom have been selling the cloth they have always said they "cut" the Tangles up for cloth which is why the price is so high.. right? :p
     
  17. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    The original idea was to cut up the europa gold guard sashes. Some people did this and made robes, kilts and various other items (Mostly robes and kilts) From there it was doggy duped and cut up into the thousands of yards it is today.
     
  18. Bon Iver

    Bon Iver Rares Fest Host | Atl Sept 2011 & June 2013

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    Okay so I have no idea if someone already said this, since I did not have the energy to read every one's comments, but the Europa cloth comes from the Britannia Clean Up where not just "100" sashes were given out but a crap load due to the fact that it required very little points to buy the multiple hues of sashes. Though most of the Europa Brit Guard sashes you see today are blessed, I still have one that is unblessed which proves that they could have been a vital source for Europa cloth.
     

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  19. Zhuge

    Zhuge Journeyman

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    At 120 Tailoring, you get 2x Cloth per Sash that you cut up, so if 100 or even 200 were given out, that would not explain the tens of thousands that are currently going around of the Europa Gold Cloth. :)
     
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  20. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    The sashes you get from the cleanup turn-in are titled differently.
    The brit cleanup sashes say only "Royal Britannian Guard" and are unable to be cut with scissors.
    The ONLY sashes that were able to be cut in this manner are sashes that were first handed out on Europa. After the first couple of handouts (quite a few but not as many as would make thousands of yards of cloth) the EM changed them so that they could not be cut.
     
    #20 Flutter, Aug 6, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2013
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  21. Bon Iver

    Bon Iver Rares Fest Host | Atl Sept 2011 & June 2013

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    Ahhh I stand corrected. Thanks Flutter!

    http://www.uoguide.com/Royal_Guard_Sash

    So there is only one explanation if supposedly around 100 sashes were given out; the only conclusion is that people were regularly duping them.
     
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  22. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    the only other europa gold colored items i can think of off the top of my head other than the original "member of the royal brittanian guard" sashes are the royal explorer set, which was from 2006. i dont remember if doggy duping was cleaned up by then, or was at the height of it.

    Since we're on the topic of Europa, the Obsidian Warrior sashes from season 2 (15) are necro blue, so who knows maybe someone cut one up to make the "necro blue cloth" (yes i know Most necro blue came from doggy dupes) The point is, where do you draw the cut off from an items origin when it could possibly come from non-doggy-dupe means, but the vast majority in reality did.
     
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  23. Bon Iver

    Bon Iver Rares Fest Host | Atl Sept 2011 & June 2013

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    Any guesses on the origin of tangle?
     
  24. Prawn

    Prawn Journeyman
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    You have never been able to cut up tangles lol that stupidest **** ive ever heard
     
  25. Zhuge

    Zhuge Journeyman

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    Well like I said, and which I am sure you have seen at Luna on Atlantic aswell, is the people whom are selling bulk "Tangle colored cloth" claim they chopped up the tangles to obtain the cloth, which I figure is bogus because I mean whose gonna cut 1000 tangles up, to get 2000 cloth? :p

    And as to the dye tub, there would be bolts upon bolts and so much flux of Tangle Colored cloth, that it wouldnt be worth anymore than the slime dyed bolts which sell for 50-100k.
     
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  26. Prawn

    Prawn Journeyman
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    Was a tub that a gm/seer created during a leshire event fel pacific was never meant to be used by the public.. cloth and other items were dyed for a brief period
     
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  27. Zhuge

    Zhuge Journeyman

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    *Sorry for double post, responding*

    Lol yeah, but anyone who sits at Luna on Atlantic or asks the people selling bulk Tangle cloth, gets that phrase id say almost every time.
     
  28. The Turk

    The Turk Seasoned Veteran

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    all of them are duped,sadly :(
     
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  29. Prawn

    Prawn Journeyman
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    Well the cloth was around for quite sometime before the tangle was ever put into the game. I would say it really started showing up on vendors in robe/cloak and cutup cloth form around 2009
     
  30. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    I'd like to hear opinions from some of the major rares traders and brokers
     
  31. Zhuge

    Zhuge Journeyman

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    The Force of Will hath spoken! +1 :p
     
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  32. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    I'd think if it was being created legally someone would come defend it no?
     
  33. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    well, that would sort of be like people selling zog cloth admitting that it was bought from the npc tailor :p

    (just checked the npc tailor - no Europa gold to be seen :p )
     
    #33 Smoot, Aug 6, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2013
  34. Kahlan

    Kahlan Lore Keeper
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    Ok this clears up ALOT of questions I personally had. But one more if you all could clarify for me. Is ethereal clothing duped, exploited, or what? Where did the originals if any come from, and why is it deleted on site?
     
  35. Alexander of ATL.

    Alexander of ATL. Rares Fest Host | Atl June 2013
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    There is an old event item from Great lakes called, 'The Cloak of Darkness'. It is unique, meaning 1 of 1.

    What I was told is that this cloak was duped to hell and back, obviously, which created the normal 'cloak' that is ethy.

    The crook, kilt, and boots were from dogy dupes, or so i was told. Dogy dupe is when you have one of those dogs that transforms into something in its surrounding.

    Not sure if all this is true, but it's what I know. :)
     
    #35 Alexander of ATL., Aug 7, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2013
  36. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    Alexander is correct.
    During this time the shroud of talkeesh was being duped and mass sold all over on every shard.
    There were SO MANY of them that the active dev team at the time decided to release the monk shrouds as a sort of compensation.
    They decided since so many of them were purchased that they would not delete the ones that existed. They did however deem the ethereal clothing and crook illegal as they hadn't been mass marketed the way the shrouds had.
    The shrouds of talkeesh (sp) as you remember were an event item where you had to do a several step quest and turn in the enchanted valorite ore (see my sale post) to get the shrouds. They were then doggy duped to oblivion and all the "cool kids" at the bank were wearing them. Later the ethereal clothes started showing up and we were told not to buy them because they "could be deleted in the future". I am not sure if they actually ever did anything about the ethereal clothes. Most people sold it off really quickly when the announcement was made, but I occasionally see someone wearing some here and there, and I know a friend with a cloak and she has been paged on multiple times and the GMs never act on it. So I think "illegal" is pushing the envelope a little but I don't know how else to describe it.
     
  37. Athelas

    Athelas Lore Keeper
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    I wouldn't say it was "duped to hell and back," as I've only seen 2 in my entire time in UO. Granted that does mean it was duped at some point as it was originally unique. Now it was doggy duped to hell and back (when an item is doggy duped it loses its special name and becomes simply a cloak, a kilt, a sword etc), that much we are sure of. There was a time where one couldn't journey to Luna on Atlantic without seeing at least five in the bank.

    If i'm not mistaken it is actually from Napa and the name I remember seeing is "Cloak of Shadows." I am unfamiliar with "The Cloak of Darkness," not to say that it does not exist.
     
  38. claudia-fjp

    claudia-fjp Lore Master
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    The other day I saw someone at the bank on Atlantic wearing the old season 4 Royal Explorer outfit from Europa and to me it looked to be the same hue as the original europa sashes. Made me wonder if it was potentially used back in the day with the doggy dupe instead of just the sashes. I remember the original doggy dupers snuck into some museums to get at the unique hued items.

    Some of the items:
    Season 2 GL Avenger's Hellebarte (Red/Blue) (3) I believe is the red/blue halberd's origin
    Season 2 Algid (Red/Blue Elemental Slaying Sword) (1) * two tone broadsword.
    Brumal (Red/Blue Elemental Slaying Sword) (1) *
    From season 1 Calm, Quell, Pacify, and Subdue.
    A white black staff that was a Staff of the Magi, a pure white crook, and a blood red crook, but not sure where the crooks are from.
    All the glacial and ethy stuff as previously mentioned.
     
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  39. Deaol

    Deaol Certifiable
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    Ethereal clothing can also be cutup.. you can acquire ethereal "cloth" which can make any clothing item ethereal. I have yards of the cloth as-well as various ethereal clothing pieces including boots.. doublet.. shirt.. tunic.. kilt.. cloak.. robe and more.
     
    #39 Deaol, Aug 8, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2013
  40. Ron Silverbeard

    Ron Silverbeard Certifiable
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    On a sidenote, what about the super White bolts you could get from this quest years ago were you got that super White Spider silk Piece and were able to stop the quest and do it over and over and over and get the super White (is it pure White?) clothing out of it i think i still have some bolts of it somewhere in a chest? Rare or not? LEgal or not? I remember i was reading its not possible to reproduce the bug anymore to produce this clothing out of it...

    Concerning glacial items - as i came back in 2011 to the game, i was always told they are legal to own but bannable to sell...and they came from the doggy bug...
    The Europa Gold i was always told they came from the sashes and the massive amount of Cloth came than from duping them..

    MY opinion is still, if the developers of the game consider this items illegal, delete them - if not, bring out a notice that These items indeed have been produced by a bug or exploit but are SAVE to have and trade - this would end all discussions in a second..
     
  41. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    Since we now have the white dye tubs I don't see how anything white could be considered illegal.
     
  42. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    The hiryu is legal. There are a few of them.
    I don't know about the awesome glow in the dark clothes though.
    oooh Wouldn't it be cool if it really glowed in like dungeons and stuff?
     
  43. Alexander of ATL.

    Alexander of ATL. Rares Fest Host | Atl June 2013
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    I removed my posts regarding the ethy clothing, glacial clothing, and ethy pets. I feel some things I said were offensive and had nothing to do with the original idea of the thread. I apologize for it, it's just this is a subject I have strong negative feelings about and should never have began to interact in this thread.
     
  44. Assia Penryn

    Assia Penryn The Sleeping Dragon
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

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    Dread spider white is a different white than the white dye tub. I don't know the Pinco on them, but they look different.

    I've never heard of it being illegal. You can't spin from the quest item any longer, but if you already have the yarn you might be able to make a colored bolt of cloth from that. I'll test that after I get back from taking my son to xc practice as I have some yarn I think.