1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

Expanding the Felucca Ruleset

Discussion in 'UHall' started by garillo, Apr 28, 2012.

?

Should the Felucca Ruleset apply to more than one facet?

  1. Yes! The Trammel Ruleset is heavily catered to, show Fel some love!

    38.5%
  2. Yes, the game was much healthier before the repeated addition of more Tramme

    30.8%
  3. No, I am tired of dying

    15.4%
  4. No, UO's AI presents enough of a challenge to me

    7.7%
  5. No, 83.3% of total facets is not enough!

    7.7%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. garillo

    garillo Journeyman

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2011
    Messages:
    151
    Likes Received:
    22
    What ever happened to Ultima being the frontier of "anything can happen"? At any point a good-doer could cross paths with a darker character, and people's days could change because of the meeting. Those fighting for good also had to face those who fought for evil and vice versa. Why has the element of battling character evil become so restricted? There are 6 facets total (Fel, Tram, Ish, Ter Mur, Malas, Tokuno), and only one falls under the Fel ruleset. How is this fair to restrict so many players with PK character slots (and PvPer's in general) to one facet, in this year of 2012, further exacerbated by low server populations?

    Has any consideration been put in to expand the Fel ruleset and add some spice back in UO? It certainly would open the doors to new content in areas without having to develop more landmasses/maps, further dispersing the populations. Why introduce an insurance system only to further restrict the perks of having a red/pvper by also adding in more trammel ruleset facets? Since when did players become looked at as eggs, and patches viewed as bubble wrap?

    Questions, Comments, Ideas, Suggestions, Rude Remarks?
     
  2. Flak Jacket

    Flak Jacket Visitor

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    3
    Never looked at it like this... Until now
     
  3. Symma

    Symma Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,600
    Likes Received:
    85
    You're a bit late really. Not much will change now. They'll probably revamp champ spawns but thats about as much as Felucca (or in my case Siege Perilous) will ever really get. I'd love to be proved wrong but meh...
     
  4. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    6,641
    Likes Received:
    1,163
    Felucca is a failed business model. You were given 2 new champ spawns in the Abyss, only to deride and insult them later for their lack of choke points (reference is to an old JC the Builder post which many Fellies signed on to), and to largely ignore the rather creative content in the Primeval Lich spawn.

    Numerous incentives have been added over the years (Khaldun, Champ Spawsn, Power Scrolls, unique artifacts, 2 Abyss champs, double resources, double fame, etc.), all of which have had only modest, or no, impact, hence necessitating yet another around of attempts to make a failed business model work.

    The problem with Felucca isn't that it's big enough, it's that most people do not want to play there, do not want to experience that lifestyle. Adding yet more to it would fail by definition.

    Further, as the Faction Artifact controversy should have proven rather conclusively, it's not Trammies who have the biggest sense of entitlement in this game.

    -Galen's player
     
  5. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    I would simply vote NO, but that wasn't available. It's called "Felucca Ruleset" for a reason, like a stigma. Once that's removed with both rulesets existing in harmony, in all areas of Sosaria, would be the option I'd select. Currently, I feel like the game experience has been cheapened and unnecessarily limited simply because of separate "rulesets".
     
  6. Flak Jacket

    Flak Jacket Visitor

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    3
    i like playing in fel better since i started. it feels more like im adventuring with the sense of danger not only coming from monsters but from real players to. once i have finished building some armor and my characters i plan to return as well for revenge and to continue exploring. i have a guardzone where i need to be protected and i can insure anything good everything else is a adventure!
     
  7. Parnoc

    Parnoc Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2004
    Messages:
    1,066
    Likes Received:
    483
    Excellent post and spot on, Galen. Agree with you totally!!
     
  8. Tazar

    Tazar Guest

    Wow... those are some mighty biased options in that there poll...
     
    yars, Viper09, LordDrago and 2 others like this.
  9. Adol

    Adol Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2003
    Messages:
    1,502
    Likes Received:
    469
    That's not even the most recent failure to positively support their own gameplay choices; the Dev Team put up a "Classic" shard, and the majority of the Fel playerbase cursed them out for also including a few more mechanics to test at the same time, couldn't agree even amongst themselves what a "Classic" rule set was, and the whole idea collapsed within two weeks, in a mass of self-entitlement and arrogance.

    And even that wasn't the most recent failure; not that you'd know it according to these boards, because even when given an expanded rule set, what this thread is supposedly asking for in it's heavily biased Poll, they refuse to acknowledge it because it's not everything we demand right now. I'm talking of course about the introduction of Arenas. Something many have claimed to want, at least as a stepping stone to introducing people to Ultima PvP, but as most of us predicted, is completely dead on arrival because it's not really what was wanted at all.

    Because, and it's amazing we still have to keep having this argument nearly 15 years later, the real motivation behind arguing for an expanded rule set is that they want to enforce free PvP everywhere, or at least in enough areas that those who wouldn't normally go there feel that they have too, and thus provide the PK opportunities, rather than PvP, which was found in the baby years of UO. And that's a minority viewpoint in gaming in general, and an extreme minority amongst RPG gamers, especially amongst fans of the single player Ultimas. The existence of the Fel ruleset is thus agonizing not because it's empty as such, but because it proves what people actually want; there's nothing stopping anyone going there now, indeed as mentioned by Galen it's heavily biased already towards encouraging people to go there. Power scrolls. Double resources. Faction vendors. And they still won't go.

    And it's not about being fragile "eggs". Let's be frank shall we? You're not "wolves" pursuing "sheep", you're not urban supermen experimenting in social darwinism or all the other ridiculous claims I've heard over the years for why behaving without boundaries with regard to other people is supposedly so superior. No, it's far simpler that that; you've got people world wide sitting on their tushes playing an RPG computer game. That's all any of us are. And inside that game, there's a very limited skill set involved; can you creatively socialise with other people, or can you not? And destroying is so, so much easier than being creative isn't it? It's Easy Mode because being selfish, fighting lop-sided battles in your favour, or disrupting events where people didn't even expect you to be at is so much easier than working with other people to make something of your time together, isn't it?

    Which is ultimately why most of the land mass is Trammel not Felucca. Because what ever differences people have in playstyle, personality and even politics, the people on the other side of the divide mostly know how to work together, and build a common, constructive alternative. The hard workers, the skilled and the social are mostly Trammies. And in the facet v facet wars, Trammel has taken Felucca out to the woodshed and given it a comprehensive beating.

    In real life too. Sharks usually lose to dolphins of course, because dolphins run in packs, are smart enough to know to ram the gills of sharks, and even help other species (including humans) against them. And as a consequence, who do we as the world's apex predator, love more than sharks and would protect above them?

    Of course, if we were to apply a Fel mindset in turn, we'd be out to destroy your playstyle simply because we don't believe you can play well with us at all. And we're not, because we're not just stronger, more popular but also much less selfish and self centred... we genuinely are happy you have your little playground to run amok in, whilst we recognise there are people of quality on both sides all the same so it actually accords with our principles to support it. And we'll pat these ridiculous, biased and self obsessed threads on their thread-head when they come up again, because we recognise an attempt to seem threatening and dangerous, which Fel itself no longer is; "Oooga boooga, Fel's gonna getchya!" Yes dear, of course it is, we're checking under our stairs for the nasty Fel-man right now. And nobody ever dares swim in the sea, because we fear sharks more than they fear us...

    You know, as an aside, I played EvE online for 3 months, and even there the only time I ever got PK'd was in a EvE-Uni fleet action into Zero Space to actually find PvP... There's a lot of dumb decisions made in the gaming industry, and I've pointed out my fair share from my perspective here. But some lessons are so obvious even the entire industry has learned them by now. Amazing really some of the playerbase can't....
     
  10. Flak Jacket

    Flak Jacket Visitor

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    3
    i have done alot of reading in the past few months. wasnt this game more popular long ago when there was a closer fel:tram ratio? the few people who have talked to me who played then all say how much better off the game was then and tell me awesome stories of large scale throwdowns so i cant see how people could say it doesnt have appeal. the addition of multiple safe places simply choked it out because people were left to easily get around having to go there so it seperated the populations
     
  11. Nimuaq

    Nimuaq Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,017
    Likes Received:
    280
    Felucca ruleset, in my own opinion, makes the game more challenging, encourages players to team up, thus encourages communities rather than individual players, adds a certain amount of randomness and adrenaline and it is also the original ruleset of UO.

    So the question is, why most of the players "do not want to experience that" gaming style? They certainly didn't mind it during the first years of the game. I think there are several reasons for this but the major one is: you're not the almighty player you are in Trammel who can beat the monster AI with clever templates in Felucca. There is now another opponent that doesn't use an AI. While you can beat almost any challenge all by yourself in Trammel, you need the help of other players in Felucca. You need alliances, guildies and old friendships to prosper and even to survive. There are great risks but even greater rewards.

    If we could choose to be a kid (who is fed by his/her parents and doesn't care about money or other responsibilities) or an adult (who has to earn money, raise children and has much great responsibilities) most of us would choose to be a kid because it is much more easier. The same way, if you could choose between easy and hard, you would choose easy. But guess what, while the latter is harder, it is much more fun. :)

    So why don't we all play in Siege Perilous? Because other shards are easier. You can train faster, have multiple characters to support your individual playing experience and your only enemy is the AI which you can beat without much effort. Most of the players I know have their single character in Siege but they just quit at the training phase by thinking they could train five more characters on other shard rather than spending days in Siege Perilous. They see their fishing pole get destroyed and think that it is much more easier to fish on other shards. They choose the easy route.

    So if it failed, it failed because a much more easier alternative is present, but with less fun (again, in my own opinion :) ).
     
    kelmo, Raptor85 and Flak Jacket like this.
  12. Flak Jacket

    Flak Jacket Visitor

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    3
    i have yet to fight a monster that i thought would be a better fight than another player! unfortunately i havent fought any other players yet. all in time
     
  13. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    6,641
    Likes Received:
    1,163
    Only more-challenging to those who don't want to be PKs. It is always a lot easier to get people to band together for greed and debasement than it is for virtue and right, especially in a fictional setting which has only limited (and no visible) RL consequences, and indeed only limited in-game consequences. Getting people together to fight PKs was met with statements like "you're just making them mad! You're just making it worse! You're just making them red by giving them muder counts when you die!" (All of which were said to me in-game on different occasions.)

    Yes we did mind it. There was no alternative, or at least far fewer of them (Ultima Online vs Nexus: Kingdom of the Winds!) back then so we put up with it. And let us not under-estimate the power of the Ultima brand name. That was a great brand name with a lot of cool history and lore behind it and to walk around and be able to RP living in that environment on a day to day basis had great power.

    Once Trammel was made, most players went to Trammel and never looked back to Felucca (judging by the unending stream of failed incentives they've offered to get people to go back, as well as other methods).

    Lots of reasons people want to not experience the Felucca lifestyle. One is that, if you believe only a third of what the Fellies say about each other a third of the time, then pretty much all of them cheat/hack/scriptm, etc. Again, all I'm doing is saying that this is true if you believe a third of what they say about each other a third of the time. By definition this means that you either cheat yourself to fight or you submit. Given a third option, most players took it.

    Two is that it's just not that much fun to pay a montly subscription fee to be overly aggressive in order to be able to do other things that don't require much aggression.

    I could go on I guess.

    Reward for the few, risk for the many. Remember that it's easier, as stated above, to get people together to be PKs than it is to fight them. I, for one, do not want to play a game, enter a fictional environment, where my only realistic choice is become them or join them. Attempts to paint the pre-Trammel game in any other light fail simply because they are not accurate, are not true.

    The row over making Faction artifacts more difficult to obtain is alone enough to dispel the illusion that Fellies are about risk vs. reward. A no-risk reward was taken away, and they threaten to leave the game because of it. Even worse many of them resort to arguing from the "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" perspective when arguing for the changes to be reverted, a perspecitve they are violently opposed to in basically any other circumstance that has arisen on these boards.

    This, I think, is the most-telling of your quotes, and it's where I'll stop, because the rest of what you have to say has no interest to me after you reveal your true colors. In your world, Fellies are adults, and most of us are children because we do not wish to be Fellies. Firstly, one cannot listen to Global Chat on Great Lakes and still believe this. Secondly, not which guilds more-often come to EM events and spam repeatedly for items, threaten the EMs, or the like. Thirdly and finally, the analytical perspective itself is pure hogwash. This is a game, a hobby. The idea that such can be compared to the adulthood/childhood distinction is analytically ridiculous. It is, however, not made with analysis in mind: It's designed to be insulting and that was rather clearly your intent.

    -Galen's player
     
    BeaIank, Meatbread, LordDrago and 3 others like this.
  14. Lorax_Pacific

    Lorax_Pacific Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,012
    Likes Received:
    63
    There are so many reasons it felt better, but 15 years ago there were very few alternatives and it was a brand new market. There was a huge population of message board and chat people that were also D&D players. Some of us in the beginning used UO as a way to be a Dungeon Master and we would coordinate activities or outings of adventure. We roleplayed and we took others out on an adventure in roleplay. It was common to end the adventure because there would be so much interaction with marauders. Every mining cave had to be guarded by an army of friendly people. There are so many alternatives now that every different person is being catered to through various competitive games.

    It was also harder to get around 15 years ago because either every character had to have enough magery to recall or walk. Some of my characters had to have friends go together from Vesper to Britain walking the trail because reds camped the crossroads. Today traveling is easy and distances people more in every facet.

    Rolling the clock back to try to get the lost feelings and the historic enjoyment will never be achievable.

    -Lorax
     
  15. Flak Jacket

    Flak Jacket Visitor

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    3
    the way im gonna shoot for coming up through the game is the way i see good sports programs ran. if you want to perform and be recognized you have to play in a tough conference because it conditions you and keeps you on point. otherwise you fall behind and leave room for others to surpass you. some players get conditioned to being safe never leaving their comfort zone while others push themselves to be better and to a higher level with more competition and are often recognized and awarded more accordingly. i want to be a well rounded player and think places like fel will play a very important part of it. i want to stand out and have fun because if i wanted to fight computer monsters all day i would play a single player game! all of the people that just stand around luna or just mine and chop trees all day are boring but entitled to be boring if they want because they pay for it. i dont want to end up like them tho
     
  16. Flak Jacket

    Flak Jacket Visitor

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    3
    lorax it sounds like fel pushed people to be a community. sounds cool having people to guard and hangout while other people did their job like they all actually need each other to function. guess now it is so easy to be dependent people just join a big guild and do whatever? i was way late pickin this game up!
     
  17. Lorax_Pacific

    Lorax_Pacific Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,012
    Likes Received:
    63
    It was like the old west, but without jails. There was no authority and no mechanics to support posse's or any method of controlling the chaos or evil. There were blues that could surround a player and then a red that would kill them. In the old west that gang would have been considered red or grey, but players worked around the system to wreck havoc and disrupt the game play of everyone they could find. In the early days we posted on news groups and stratics about needing methods to help control and then Tram came out. There were very few development choices the team at the time could develop. Some were complex and tram was easy coding wise. Sometimes the easy choice does not make the game the most fun.

    It would be a mistake to apply a poorly controlled ruleset to any other facets.

    -Lorax
     
    Sevin0oo0 likes this.
  18. Flak Jacket

    Flak Jacket Visitor

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    3
    maybe they should adjust the system some but adapt the same mentality. work towards finding a way to punish or flag those who are involved so people cannot grief or help in unsavory events without some sort of consequence. like if you heal a guy who is killing a player or cast any beneficial buffs on him during the time hes killing a guy you take the same mark as him when the target hits the dirt
     
  19. Flak Jacket

    Flak Jacket Visitor

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    3
    the fel part is what attracted me to the game and its been talked about a few times the past week or two with friends who im trying to convince to come play. it is a cool aspect of the game that goes outside most everything else offered by a similar game
     
  20. Lightfoot

    Lightfoot Adventurer
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    29
     
  21. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    There's alot of things that have changed that were changed for good reason or overlooked as an important part of the game.

    Alot of these things can be put back into the game and it would not take alot of work and there are advances that can be done to the game making it eternal.

    For example: Cursed items bring back a time when a player needs help retrieving their goods, where anyone can take the items off their corpse and either keep it or hold it for them giving the player choice to be good or evil. The player can protect themselves by using insured goods, so the system is fixed, there is just one more problem, cursed items are not good enough to make the trade. They would have to be over powered.

    Stealing of cursed items could be allowed in more places and once an item is stolen, it could toggle PvP on, so anyone could attack the thief, then more cursed items could be added in more places. If Snooping would fail, it would cause a mini game of Kill the Thief and if the thief was successful, you would lose a cursed item, not something you would be wearing though, only items in the pack. This protects crafters because their items are not cursed. This in a way, would open some of Felucca ruleset.

    I would also bring back locked doors and keys and a way to unlock player chests giving them some type of spawned items, not the players content but with risk to getting caught, similar to turning grey in town where someone can call guards and you get guard whacked. This system would just turn you grey and then allow the player to kill you, possibly connected to The Thief Guild to make sure that people do not just randomly turn grey. So, then you would have levels.

    Also, spawns of Red PKs, NPCs that are able to roam for hours until killed or captured, wearing fully lootable gear such as a player would wear but mostly cursed, equipped with powerful weapons, powerful jewelry, even items in their pack that can be stolen, different levels of difficulty.

    There could be some type of skill trigger that automatically spawns the random chance for an encounter, perhaps the spawn would use tracking and from where its random spawn point is, would begin seek and destroy. If that player would log out, it would move to the next target. Powerful NPCs could ride horses, be tamers and even work in groups capable of stealing cursed items.

    So, again, The Fel part of the game is recaptured and brought to other facets without allowing players to simply grief each other but bringing in different types of play style, like the PK could possibly find killing these NPCs to be challenging enough, where some might almost be impossible to kill and might live for several days or longer. Perhaps, every time one of the NPC killers is successful, they could become more difficult so that they would interact with players.

    Then once in Fel, there would be not much difference between The NPC and the players. So, people who encounter a PK in Fel, feel no more threatened than if it were an NPC but again cursed items would have to be part of this system for The NPC to be able to loot them.

    Once you've made it so the thief can flag himself any where by attempting to steal a cursed item, you have also allowed for the PK player types to become part of the community. Once they flag grey, anyone can attack them. Once you attack them, they can fight back but you would only be able to lose cursed items. So, you would be opening the game basically 100% but still controlling griefing and balancing the loss of items.
     
  22. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,752
    Likes Received:
    1,568
    I was there in the very beginning and lived those days on a few shards and I can tell you from my time back then Life was not all roses and song. There were mean and nasty people who thrilled at the thought of demorilizing a fellow player with their wit and charm... not. It is not FUN to have your every move watched and worry about going to a bank with something of worth and fear a thief will rip you off for that hard earned item. Walk out of town and get your pet you and your things ravaged by the player who has the skills of a gun slinger of the old west kill you a few hundred times as he watches your body rot as he prevents you from gathering up your items.... oh the old days were such fun... NOT

    The Day EA added Trammel we all thought ok places for houses as that was what we asked for ... we had no idea of the rule set. Within days I watched Fel go from a dence population down to handfulls and houses disapear..... It was not the thrill of new house land but the realization that Trammel was what every player who ever got robbed blind wanted. Shear relief that they could walk around with that prized item and not loose it to the first gunslinger who crossed their path, beleave you me many ducked and hid the first weeks till it sunk in they were free of that threat. Oh Fel didnt empty out of everyone, infact it became very dangerous to go there, thiefs were pissy that their gold sinks were gone.
    By gold sink I mean every poor player who needed their house rune or key to the boat, house etc they stole and ransomed off back to you for thousands. Thats if they didnt go strait to the trash can and drop it in and you lost it for good. Many were that mean to do it.
    Oh Fel life was that good...... Look I live in fel with a great deal of my homes and love the place but life was not all peachy and rosey. So treating it like it was the best thing sence sliced bread is way off mark. I will agree Fel at that moment in time was good for building character in the player as well as in game. I have the Feluccian mentality as my son so rightfully reminds me of each time i grab up bottles or anything I can use on the bank floors... (i learned to be thrifty in Fel) He is sometimes embarrased by me doing it when i have a billion gold inthe banks over the shards... but I tell him I came form nothing in Fel how do you think we got that gold in the first place.....
    No I dont support placing any more FEl rule set places outside of what we have already, on many shards those areas go unused by the masses. As fel is unused today. Oh there was a simpler thing they could have done back then to make it all fel rule set .... but who am I to challenge the Gods?
     
  23. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Premium Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2004
    Messages:
    7,469
    Likes Received:
    361
    lol the whole poll is biased and pointless! anyway I lived and played back then and was the worst time! The game was full of griefers and though their were more players then because the game was new! they were starting to leave in droves because of the pvp griefers!
    you cant fill the pvp areas now because most people dont like it and to spread the area out is going to be good? How? by forcing others to play? yeh that will work
     
    Lord Frodo, yars, Viper09 and 2 others like this.
  24. Don't Tread on Me

    Don't Tread on Me Lore Keeper
    Professional Stratics Veteran Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    866
    Likes Received:
    248
    I don't think that fel needs to be expanded in any way. It's probably too big already for the amount of people who occupy the place (by occupy I mean actually do things there). I believe that to enhance fel there needs to be more reason to go there... but I think that pretty much everyone who wants to be there, is... mostly. And I think players who are not in fel, will never go. Today's pvp doesn't help anything either... most people pvp in groups today which makes it very hard for a newbie in fel to do ANYTHING because not only does he get attacked by far more experienced players... they tend to outnumber him.

    For fel to ever have life again, something has to draw people in. But that something cannot be arties or anything like that, because the zerglings will just hoard the wealth and we'll have gone nowhere. I wish i had a good answer to what would meaningfully draw people in (besides pvp) but I got nothing.
     
    Lord Frodo likes this.
  25. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran 4H

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    7,535
    Likes Received:
    1,927
    I think for people who want to be able to find a fight anywhere on the shard, Siege and Mugen over pretty good alternatives. However, I think a lot of people are still under the impression that it takes forever to finish training a character there. With the changes that were made to the RoT skill gain system that applies once a skill hits 70.1, it really doesn't take that long now. I'd estimate that most people who are willing to play a character there 1-3 hours per day several days a week would probably have their character completely trained (i.e., up to 120 or whatever the applicable cap for a skill is) in under two months. It's definitely not the shard for everyone, but if you relish the idea of possibly running into a fight wherever you might roam, it could be worth checking out.
     
  26. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Premium Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2004
    Messages:
    7,469
    Likes Received:
    361
    This has always amazed me that more pvpers dont take advantage of these shards if you want true pvp and risk these are the shards to play! the only draw back to them is you cannot have a house there if you have one on another shard if they fixed this one thing I think you would see a shard explosion there

    one thing though I would make the houses here (if its a second house) so that you had to refresh them every 7 days like the old grandfathered houses to keep people from building then never showing up
     
    Lord Frodo and virtualhabitat like this.
  27. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2001
    Messages:
    30,889
    Likes Received:
    5,175
    Perhaps, being newly returned, you were unaware of the two Felucca rules areas that were added with Stygian Abyss?

    There might be a case for expanding the area where that ruleset applied, if the existing land area were more used.

    The 'Fel is a paradise' idea fell apart as soon as some people realised they could bully others pretty much with impunity. People tried to adapt and find ways to avoid being bullied - then Everquest came out and a mass exodus began. OSI developers acted as quickly as they could to provide somewhere for these fleeing players to escape to without actually leaving the game. Time was of the essence, so the simplest solution had to be the one they enacted. Thus was Trammel born. All the pk's victims fled the scene and have never gone back. Some pvpers want other pvpers they can contest their skill against - but many pks simply want a steady procession of easy targets they can bully and chest-beat over.
     
  28. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Premium Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2004
    Messages:
    7,469
    Likes Received:
    361
    I
    could not say it better!
     
  29. Raptor85

    Raptor85 Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,712
    Likes Received:
    224
    I'm sorry but...why would you vote no. It's not like you'd be forced to go into them.

    Also, petra, funny fact about the two fel areas they added to the abyss (on all shards but siege) is that the entryway in is tram ruleset so reds can't follow or cross, reds have to use the dungeon enterences and their only way out is the teleporters. It's kinda annoying how it's set up like that.
     
  30. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran 4H

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    7,535
    Likes Received:
    1,927
    As Siege is missing one very large landmass for housing that other shards (including Mugen) have and because non-mage characters have to walk/run everywhere, I have difficulty supporting the concept of letting people place a second house on Siege that doesn't jeopardize their house elsewhere, even if it needs to be refreshed. I think being able to have a second house there without having to pay extra for it could also tend to make some people think of it as merely their "holiday shard," where they do not have to take real responsibility for their words and actions or try to build the community.

    Edited to add: To me, giving anyone the ability to place a second house on Siege or Mugen without having to pay extra for it would be close to the equivalent of letting trial accounts place houses on all the other shards or similar to the situation we have now with Test Center when it is not wiped on a regular basis. Pretty soon the shard would be cluttered with houses that are not being used in any meaningful way and the people who would be willing to pay RL money to EA to place a house there and actually use it would have to settle for smaller and less convenient locations and thus might not stick around for as long as we all would hope.
     
    Raptor85 likes this.
  31. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2001
    Messages:
    30,889
    Likes Received:
    5,175
    Yes, I know that fact. You see the character stealthing in llama form in the pictures on this page?
    UO Stratics *New* | Stygian Abyss Champion Spawns
    That's me - on Siege.
     
    Sevin0oo0 likes this.
  32. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    There's alot of things that I think should be considered and it's difficult to put them all together because there is just so much but look at the guild system. It allows players to kill each other and loot each other dry. So does the Faction system, rather than having all these different systems, why not just use cursed items? I mean it's my opinion that guilds should be safer. It doesn't make sense that once you join a guild you become vulnerable, although, I could see some guild systems allowing it, like Chaos Guild vs. Honor Guild.

    So, now you have evil and good even on other shards like Seige you should still have a villian. You have to remember that Felucca took out the Hero and the Villian by removing the PK and the Thief. You can't just put that back into the game by changing shards. The whole thing is built like on a pyramid and then you have factions on the side which could also have evil and good counter parts with their own set of items.

    So, even items have good and bad, like the cursed item is the evil item. So, now we kind of touch on this whole Lore type thing. For example: If you create The Evil NPC PK then you also need to create the Hero Paladin so that if these two see each other in Fel or in Trammel or on any shard you would have the grand conflict of good vs. evil.

    The thief is like the little agitator who takes something and then everybody is like, where did it go? So, then you have the counter part, the detective, the bounty hunter and you can see all of these systems are coming together. They're all connected to each other. If you remove one piece, the systems fall apart. For example: Insured items and cursed items. If both elements exist then there is a way to survive. Before insurance, there was no way because a player could take everything. Now, it's impossible to monopolize with insurance.

    Then you have imbuing vs. looting vs. suits, like faction suits, armour sets. All of these pieces fit together. For example: You could wear a full faction suit and never have to worry about losing it and you could PvP because that's what your focus is or you could be a Thief PK who wears cursed items that are very powerful but is then vulnerable to losing it all, so that they're not to powerful, it creates a balance.

    Then you have imbued suits for the crafter and the person who likes to customize and re-forging for the power gamer, all of the elements are there but you can't have a hero without the villian and you will see alot of these systems will break down very quickly if the opposing force is stronger.

    For example: Guild with lots of people, Alliances turn into powerful Kingdoms or Guild PK and Guild Thief.

    The game itself, to me, is kind of based on that small detail. If you take away The Thief or The PK, you eliminate what the game is and that is a world where anything can happen but you can't allow for systems to completely control the outcome. Like Seige, for example. It has a positive outcome of the possibility to completely lose everything, then you have the main shard that has the possibility to not lose anything. These are the extremes of the system. They are not the balance of each part.
     
  33. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    6,680
    Likes Received:
    824
    Have you considered making unbiased answers here? I can't find a decent option that isn't heavily slanted. As it is I don't know why expanding fel rule-set areas any further would make anything better. The only reason I can possibly think of doing it is to catch some unknowing player in a bad spot to pk or steal from. Expanding fel will not make the "fel experience" anymore fun nor will it create a larger population for fel. It will just be as under-populated as fel is already.

    What would be a neat idea is to touch-up guild wars since they can be fought in any facet and consider allowing murderers in other facets.
     
    LordDrago likes this.
  34. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 24, 2008
    Messages:
    6,528
    Likes Received:
    2,914
    The real problem with fel is lack of player justice tools, and the fact that people were given an alternative.
     
    garillo likes this.
  35. garillo

    garillo Journeyman

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2011
    Messages:
    151
    Likes Received:
    22
    I can point out why shards like Seige are unpopular among a majority of PvPer's (giving vent insight here, with input and ideas from vet players who did not take a leave) - the advancement of armor through the all fel all everywhere system. Pre-AoS gear would be preferred. Common, non propertied armor simply wearing a gm tag with no mods or resists would suffice, and that hand-in-hand with normal skill gains would fill a shards population to the brim if offered as an EA hosted server. PvPer's would still fight naked if given the chance, we simply wear gear because it gives us an advantage that has been built into the system! You have to wear it to compete! It's commonly what is cited as the problem for shards like that. No one wants to spend longer than it already takes to grind up skills, so why subject ourselves to such an environment? Every other aspect of this game is a grind, right down to seeds of renewal (I'm aware you can also farm them in the Abyss, their drop rates still need to be bumped up) When we go to these shards now, all we see are stealth templates. If people weren't so worried about losing their coveted modded armor, they would probably fight a bit more freely and find some templates they enjoy more than stealth archer/stealth tamer/deathstriker/stealth archer tamer.

    As for people complaining about no choke points in the new spawn area, this evolves from EAs neglect to balance mystics. This point goes hand in hand with EA catering to the wrong group of people (yes I bring this up a lot, this claim was not made by PvPers but rather zerging mystic guilds). There are guilds formed on the cornerstone of simply being able to pile more mystics into a choke point and cast more hailstorms and more cleansing winds on their stacked players than others. Why not? It's a PvP template for Dummies (not name calling, rather referencing the popular books) Hailstorm has no split damage and cleansing winds spam can be done with one finger while negating almost all effects a group of players can throw at another and it is virtually impossible to interrupt! It took all skill and awareness out of cross healing. This is how zerg guilds (not pvp) try to conduct fights these days. They will literally pile 25 people into a doorway/hallway of a dungeon and refuse to move. No pushes, just refuse to move. It's lasted hours (multiple 3+hr standoffs since I've been back) The worst part about it? We are forced to roll mystics to fight mystics (it's leather armor all over again but with templates) The real PvPers are not worried about choke points, as they are boring stalemates a majority of the time because of the mystic template. We all know this, and the only ones who deny it in the "PvP" community are those who crutch the template! Real PvPers desire open field. Dexxers can do their thing there, mages can too.

    Not all of us want to just roam around in a ball of people and gank, there is a good number that just want the reactive challenge of fighting another player over AI. We pay for character slots that are locked into dead facets and incapable of going anywhere else, even if we wanted to. Even if you had bad experiences in Fel, there's nothing stopping you from gathering a group of your own to hunt down and take revenge on your murderer. That's the fun in it! Or simply stay off the beaten path, it has been pointed out how vacant and unused these landmasses are. What would it hurt? Spread the PvPers more thinly so you can maybe snatch up a spawn.

    I remember when Tram was first released, the population was not as drastic as made out. Sure, tons of people flooded to Tram. For every fel house that fell, another took its place. I was still around for this, it was still very active at this time. There will be griefing no matter what facet you're in, whether it's pkers rolling around in a group or a guy who sits afk invisd @ navrey waiting to collect his part of the loot table once she is low enough to start word of deathing. Griefers will be griefers.

    Since thieves came up, it may be worthwhile to note how they've been reduced to people who steal item spawns off walls or sigils for factions. That's about it. Has any thought been put in to combine the snooping/stealing skill to free space on a thief template (I mean c'mon they took disarm away as a skill and turned it into mere mana when I can remember my first red was a disarm thief with gm nox and gm magery, that required the 100 points in disarm, surely they could do some streamlining), or remove the ability for a random steal to hit a blessed/unstealable object so it is viable to build thieves again?

    Yes, the polls are biased but they're all valid points and arguements of what it really boils down to. Read a majority of the statements. They refer to unwanted deaths and relate them to a bad fel experience. You do not want to die to another player, you are happy with PvM alone, or you just want to pick the greedy troll option because I put it there and you'd like to click it. The only other option I could think to put on there that would convey a point would be "No I only Craft" They are harsh to commit to clicking but they are not untruths, simply in their barest form!

    While we could debate how unwanted the Fel ruleset is and how it came to be, there have been a lot of other changes that also could have contributed to falling subscriptions instead of just trying to pin it on "no one likes Fel" (the loosely regulated scripting/3rd party programs/exploits/introduction of complicated armor/crafter systems, the like) Fact of the matter is server populations (and subscriptions) were much healthier when Fel had a larger % of landmass. This is a fact. Supported by evidence, and numbers. You can deny it, but with what arguement? There are more people now than ever? It forced players from all walks to interact. Do you think a PvPer wants to go stand at a EM event? No. The ones of us that do it do it because they are HANDING OUT items that will net more than anything we could make in 2-4 days of nonstop chaining spawns for replicas and scrolls (it gets boring soloing Rikkis and Semidars or whatever else we are in the mood for) FREE MONEY. It's a huge advantage most can't afford to pass up, especially with the recent faction changes and trying to fund the rebuilding of multiple suits. Why should we have to go to your ruleset to acquire something that is so outrageously advantageous? You have no reason to go to ours.

    Look at it this way, since I'm under the impression most you of you do not have multiple reds, much less multiple accounts of nothing but reds: You can log into your character in a game that has a low population. You can recall anywhere and find a group of people to interact with. You are unbound. A majority of anything new being patched in is going to benefit you before it does the PvP community (read the past few years of patch notes and compare if you doubt it). I log into my character, to the same game with same low populations. I can go to champs and see if anyone is sneaking a spawn, or Yew gate to see if any blues want to hover around waiting to yell guards with their blue brigade behind them holding heals and able to do so safely because of the poor combat flagging system. If both places are empty, my character slot is useless. How much more area is available to your characters you enjoy maining compared to mine? This applies to entire accounts for multiple people I personally know, and I would imagine that number would be even greater given the amount of people that I don't know that may be in the same situation.

    Dismiss this if you want, but PvPers make up more of the community than you may give credit. We crunch your numbers for you, read the mechanical changes and apply concepts, and I'm willing to bet the template you're running was put together by a PvPer and handed down to you through another (Yes, most of us PvM but it is a medial and boring task that presents no challenge) We do your homework for you! So I do not understand why the game has so heavily catered to the people who did not find the answers out themselves through research, a majority are unable to arrive at conclusions for themselves. There is a lot of the market out there that just wants to PvP, whether it be as a red or a blue. We want to be challenged by another human mind, not some character model with a ton of hit points we just beat on that has a difficulty defined as "I will kill you in one hit" "I will not kill you in one hit" (unrecoverable blows)! The numbers show the game was more populated and had a higher subscriptions when Fel was more dominant than the present less than 17% landmass. Just think about it.

    You remove the element of being able to be a true "good" character when you hinder their ability to slay the real "evil", and vice versa. Take advantage of the insurance system, it's there for a reason. As are guardzones. But subscriptions will continue to decline if you phase one group of players out, and in the natural order of balance this removes the other group of players. There is no light without dark.
     
  36. garillo

    garillo Journeyman

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2011
    Messages:
    151
    Likes Received:
    22
    I'm not an EM event. I wasn't going to hand the idea out, but this is exactly what I was trying to push people to think towards. Thankyou, I fully support this comment! Run with this, and keep similar ideas/addons coming!

    I am not asking for you all not to have a safe facet. You have 5 of them. We have 1. Compromise. Who knows, you may befriend a red and you'll see they're not different than most. We have kids, jobs, watch sports, we share a hobby. There's no lack of social skill or some rediculous suggestion that separates us. We simply find another aspect of the game more appealing because of the challenge it presents.
     
  37. Nimuaq

    Nimuaq Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,017
    Likes Received:
    280
    My purpose for the analogy was to separate easy versus challenging. I wanted to illustrate Trammel as a less cruel and a more easy world compared to Felucca, thus more like the world you know as a child rather than as an adult. I did not say Trammel players are children, you can not find that in my post, and playing in a less cruel and a more easy world should not be insulting to anyone. I don't play in Great Lakes and I think generalizing pvp guilds with event griefing is stereotypical.

    You might have argued about my way of defining challenge in UO, which I'd gladly accept, but you claimed to expose "my true colors" and my "clear intention of insulting others". Your reply of my post is filled with personal attacks Galen, check my past posts and find a post that I insulted any other player. I'm very disappointed.
     
  38. garillo

    garillo Journeyman

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2011
    Messages:
    151
    Likes Received:
    22
    This post amuses me. Keep that mentality, but try to stay respectful. Don't tell people to their face they are boring. You are wasting a perfectly good nap opportunity.

    I'm aware you're new. I suggest you take advantage of trammel ruleset until you get your bearings and gear/skill together. Fel can be a lot of fun when the time is right, but can also live up to its reputation. Use your character slots to build a self-sufficient account. A crafter/Imbuer, a PvM Farmer, Resource Gatherer, PvP, PvP, PvP/Private toon. Try setting your character slots up something like this or run with the gist. You can always buy the 7th slot from the store if you feel they deserve your money. Be thrifty. Don't take candy from strangers.
     
  39. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
    Reporter Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter Royal Knight

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2000
    Messages:
    18,973
    Likes Received:
    5,458
    Say whatever you like about it.... but my argument will be this... FEL is a ghosttown... you know why? Because it's been totally destroyed by griefers, cheaters, hackers, and all manner of other folk who I personally don't care to interact with... Fel destroyed itself... just because you "can" do anything and anything goes blah, blah doesn't mean you "should".

    And honestly the more crap they put in Fel or the more land they give to Fel will NOT bring more players... this has been proven time and time again... Until something is done with the cheating, scripting and hacking Fel will continue to be dead or populated more by those who use such things... and folk who perhaps once cared about PvP and Fel have LONG since left.

    And if Fel were such a totally awesome and wonderful environment why is Siege not CRAMMED with players???
     
    Lord Frodo, Sevin0oo0 and yars like this.
  40. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    5,320
    Likes Received:
    528
    ...

    You want to know which character I take to Felucca and the ONLY character I take to Felucca?

    My MINER.

    Why? 100% worry free double resource mining. Some risk.
     
  41. yars

    yars Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2003
    Messages:
    956
    Likes Received:
    134
    i wouldnt mind fel ruleset in tram if it was able to be turned off, or a gump appeared to make it consenual. if i want risk ill put on cursed items.
     
    old gypsy likes this.
  42. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,752
    Likes Received:
    1,568
    Had a kid who recalled on a rune other day in a book - he was checking out the runes and he pop'd in around one of my homes. I came out and said "HI" I swear the kid ran sooo fast and nearly killed himself running into a mob of mean critters! I caught up to him again in Luna... I asked didnt you know you were in fel? he replyed yes but i didnt expect to find anyone!
    Makes one feel bad that just because I own a fel home that means I am a bad person out to kill the first person who crosses my path...... I felt bad I nearly gave that kid a heartattack!
     
    Thav12 and Sevin0oo0 like this.
  43. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran 4H

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    7,535
    Likes Received:
    1,927
    I've had a theory since Cal made his comment about returning the "wild, wild west" to UO and things like the crystal portals, corrupted portals, teleporter tiles, and commodity deed boxes were added to the game a few years ago and insurance costs were decreased, that we might just be headed in that direction. I've often wondered if someday we might not just see the Fel ruleset expanded across all facets, all of our characters automatically folded into factions, "safe" zones scattered all over the land (e.g., more in-town housing), and perhaps also a "consensual PvP" toggle per character. I can't honestly say it's something I really want to see happen, but the idea that perhaps many of these "conveniences" were added to enable get us to that point has crossed my mind on many occasions.
     
    garillo likes this.
  44. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    5,320
    Likes Received:
    528
    ...

    Why would they expand a ruleset that isn't attracting any customers? Also wouldn't adding in any form of "toggle" used anywhere effectively be eliminating the Fel ruleset completely?
     
    Lord Frodo likes this.
  45. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,052
    Likes Received:
    632
    Fel is dead for a reason, and nothing is going to resurrect it. Ever. Forcing it's ruleset onto the rest of the facets will only further harm UO's declining population.

    And FYI, Shard of the Dead was not an attempt at a classic shard. Whoever believes that it was is woefully misinformed.
     
    Lord Frodo and Meatbread like this.
  46. old gypsy

    old gypsy Grand Poobah
    Professional Stratics Veteran Campaign Patron PITMUCK

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    5,842
    Likes Received:
    5,282
    That would have been a better way to handle things back in the day, instead of splitting the lands into Fel and Tram. But that's water under the bridge now. As things stand today, I don't see any compelling reason for expanding the Fel ruleset beyond its present boundaries.
     
  47. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,038
    Uhh, lets be a bit more realistic here bud. No need to be such a blind hater.

    While I completely agree with you that people are being childish babies over faction arties I wholly disagree with the entitlement statement. Trammies(your word)feel just as entitled or more.

    I could name a billion instances where trammies freaked out over impossibly minor tweaks to frigging housing and threatened to quit(people going ballistic cause a certain worthless deco cannot be placed or turned a certain way wanted to quit because GM's correctly did not respond to their repeated pages lol) Or the fact that when any minor change is made that affects a Sampire trammies go nuts. Even though Sampires to this day are still beyond powerful. I occasionally farm with one and I love it. I wear a decent/basic Sampy suit and farm Unbounds in Shame two at a time by myself. Thats alot overpowered imo.

    It goes both ways but you never once seem to recognize the Fel side of things :(
     
    garillo and Raptor85 like this.
  48. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,038
    On topic I will state that I seriosuly believe that ANYONE not taking advantage of ALL facets is missing out on the true nature of the game and is most likely alot less open-minded then the think they are :(
     
    garillo and Raptor85 like this.
  49. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    6,641
    Likes Received:
    1,163
    Before Trammel, people's alternative was Everquest.

    -Galen's player
     
    Lord Frodo likes this.
  50. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    6,641
    Likes Received:
    1,163
    It does not make me a hater to stand up for reality amongst rose-colored nostalgia for a time period that has never quite really existed in actual fact.

    Most of the rest of your post seems to consist of arguing that Trammies are whiny crybabies while criticizing me for not being balanced when I say the same about Fellies, so I'll just leave it there.

    -Galen's player
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.