1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

Factions A Failure??????

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Zyon Rockler, Mar 1, 2009.

  1. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    I am sorry to report it appears factions are failing. Many many years ago, before factions I had an idea, I wanted to create a guild of guilds. My goal was to bring together a group of people under some type of contract of loyalty, trust and friendship. Before long many were talking about this idea and I remember talking to someone about it, who appeared to think it was their original idea and was asking me what I had thought about it.

    Many many years later, a rule in factions is changed that allows the healing and rezzing of faction members. I'm intriqued and decide that this will allow the guild to finally take part. Because of this change people in the guild who wish to remain in Trammel would no longer be affected.

    Well, I found I was wrong on this account. It turns out there are several bugs that when you die in Trammel can cause stat loss. So, immediately I was receiving messages of people who had died and lost their skills. I decided to press on.

    We finally got some characters together after joining TB and decided we would start to make an appearance. The first time in we were greeted by a great leader who welcomed us like family and showed us how everything worked. I was even made a Sheriff. I had hope for the game.

    I made a post not so long ago requesting the timer be changed on stat loss to try to curb the tension with Trammel players. This did not happen. Majority voted No.

    I decided we were not ready to really move into factions and that our characters needed more work. After all our first characters were only a few days old when they had earned their first points. I wanted the characters to be more efficient in PvP.

    The other day I made another post for factions when I realized there was no way of knowing what was going on in Fel. How would I know when I should go because alot of times there is nothing at all there to do. So, I asked that there be a message that could be sent to the faction member when a flag was activated. This way if a leader wasn't on you would still get a message.

    Low and behold a few days later a message is sent out on the Atlantic shard while i'm in the middle of some very busy work. It is a call for everyone in TB to report to the stronghold, that it is under attack. So, my son and I decide this might be our chance to make a great appearance.

    My son ports in first and as a stealther hides before the end of his recall so that the people there do not see him. He warns me there are alot of reds. This is disappointing to me but I decide it should not matter and port in to fight at the side of my faction to defend our stronghold. It turns out that LNR and COW are mainly apparent. After a short engaging battle COW flees.

    I come out to congradulate my team mates and i'm pked by my own faction and by no more than a back stabbing red and of course because it was not my intent I did not fight back but instead decided to take 3 steps away and died.

    I was not concerned, it was possible he did not see my tags but then I noticed not 1 LNR would even to attempt to rez me. In fact one checked my body and left me standing there. So, I had to walk to the healer in ghost form and walk back to my body. When I asked them why they did not rez me they did not talk to me and ported out, leaving me and my son.

    Is this the intent of the designers?

    A few hours later again spam ran across the screen asking that all LNR guild members report to the LNR guild house because COW is doing the Harrower.

    Again can anyone see the problem with this faction message?

    Ok, so i'm supposed to kill all of LNR so I can then kill my enemy faction or is it maybe i'm just supposed to stay in Trammel because there really isn't such a thing as a faction. To me this means that factions have failed.

    I don't understand why this guy wouldn't get some kind of penalty for his actions. First of all this guy is a red, so he gets no murder count. Why would the designers allow reds to be in a faction? A red is a murderer. That's like the military taking murderers out of the prisons to join armies. The result would be what happened to me, a murderer can not be trusted. So, how would they get into factions in the first place if a faction is supposed to be built on trust? Shame on LNR and shame on the designers for allowing this.

    I am faced with 2 choices. To hang in there alittle longer and hope for change or pull out of factions and focus on the killing of red players. In my eyes this would mean that factions have failed.

    Sorry for the long story, but thus it is true.
     
  2. Otis Firefly

    Otis Firefly Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2006
    Messages:
    1,461
    Likes Received:
    0
    it wont change
    larger guilds will always try to take control of a faction and attack anyone who isnt green to them, at least thats how it is on my shard..
    as for reds not being allowed in a faction?...that will never happen for so many different reasons!
    as for changing things like stat loss timers and amount of stats lost?..again it wont happen!, people who have been playing factions for a long time dont want things like this changed just to please people who have not..they deal with it and so should everyone else..
    as for stat loss while in tram?..this only happens if you kill yourself or if you are killed by a creature or npc ( general,captain etc..) from the invasion wars (not including the crimson dragon) because it is linked to factions.
    i agree that there should definitly be some kind of stat loss for the attacker from friendly faction killing
     
  3. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    3,209
    Likes Received:
    9
    Currently, Atl is a bit broken. The problem lay in the fact that there are only 3 factions on atl. Hot guild abuses in every situation the use of a 75% blue population and only a few oranges to stat opponents. This is very conducive to others using the same tactics.

    Cow, a middle sized guild, has risen to the top guild in UO. They are simply unrivaled. Claiming a superior pedigree and even among their least talented members, the ability to work as a team and play team oriented characters just makes them better. Listening in any guilds ventrilo, you can find that they think there are almost 2 to 3 times more cow than are visible to a stealther or a neutral third party. As the only CoM guild of note, they are a destructive force.

    LNR, is almost every guild on atl's faction guild combined to create a block to the hot/heat zerg and the dominant cow force. It's sad that people feel the need to join all the guilds together but thats what atl has become. LNR is trying to preserve their control over tb.

    What can you do? Quit TB, Join SL. If you find that there is no honor in one faction then join another. CoW rarely pk MTC despite one being a red pk guild and the other a blue roleplaying guild. Heat/Hot often join forces with the few scrub guilds in Minax. Control sl and make of it as you wish, the faction is yours if you want it.
     
  4. Sweeney

    Sweeney Guest

    Factions on Trammel is a horrible idea.
     
  5. weins201

    weins201 Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    1,686
    Likes Received:
    266
    But unfortunatly as stated above we have brought together ALOT of very different minded players to ofset the Heat issue. Some of them came from CoW.
     
  6. Divie

    Divie Guest

    There should be some type of penalty in killing a fellow faction member, similar to the murder report option, so that people can spar etc, but if killed by a fellow faction member you have the option of reporting them and inflicting some kind of punishment. Maybe removes some of their kill points.. stat loss, something at the very least.
     
  7. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,240
    Likes Received:
    0
    Then how about If your in a faction you loose all perks of faction mounts, items, arties while your in any tram ruleset. nothings more annoying than some poser who will not play in fel but gets decked out in faction gear to look pretty while banksitting.
     
  8. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    3,209
    Likes Received:
    9
    true that Kaleb.
     
  9. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    5,320
    Likes Received:
    528
    ...

    How about if you're in a Faction you can't hide that character in a Trammel facet AT ALL.

    Want to be in Factions, that character stays in Fel.
     
  10. Green Meanie

    Green Meanie Guest

    Loss of kill points i think is a good idea for killing a fellow faction near. lets say 10% of your points just like if someone else had killed you. No stat loss just makes it hard to keep rank if you keep killing your own factioneers. This should be a 1 time a day penalty.

    As far as factions in tram on my 2 blue chars both that are in factions when noone is on it is nice to beable to duck to tram and do some of the crap there.

    Edit: i agree while in tram should lose all faction benifts and draw backs
     
  11. Sprago

    Sprago Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend IPKU

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    1,768
    Likes Received:
    169
    On siege perilous we do loose half of our points for killin someone in the same faction but thats not enuff there really should be a greater effect like maybe goin stat for killing them the same stat that would occour if you got killed by an opposing faction that might eliminate people from murdering fellow faction memebers
     
  12. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran 4H

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    7,539
    Likes Received:
    1,929
    I thought one of the main reasons the developers got rid of the faction balancing rule, allowed beneficial acts for faction members in Trammel, allowed multiple characters from the same account to join factions on the same shard, and started this whole invasion story was to encourage large guilds that included folks who normally don't play in Fel to give factions a try.

    If you recall, before the "no beneficial acts" rule was disabled, it was one of the aspects of factions that most people used as their excuse for not getting involved with factions. (The skill loss period seems to have been the second most often quoted excuse. However, I think most people that have now given factions a shot realize it serves a good purpose and have backed off from wanting the rule deleted or modified.)

    In addition, the entire invasion scenario ties Fel and Trammel together. It seems logical to me that the developers envisioned TB/COM factioneers jumping over to Trammel and trying to defeat the invasions there, or SL/Minax factioneers working things in Fel to cause invasions in Trammel so they could go to Trammel and get invasion loot.

    For folks who only have one account and perhaps put their best fighting character in factions, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to drum up all these rule changes and the invasion scenario and then tell them that the character they put in factions has to stay in Fel. And telling them to keep the character in Fel completely ignores the huge issue of how those characters get to their house and possessions if the house is not in Fel.

    Were you perhaps just joking, Dermott?
     
  13. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    This is what I thought but when there are very large monopolies it can become dangerous if there are no rules to protect players.

    If you're red and you kill a faction member and you are reported there should be a number of reports that you receive and then you are removed from the faction. I think this would be fair and stop people from abusing the system.

    Similar to the way you go from blue to red, you would go from red to out. Then when a red says, I wish to consider my sins, it could show how many faction kills they have as well as their regular status.

    I think it would also be good if there were large penalties, where both would receive skill loss, kill points, and the factions silver would be diminished by a certain percentage.

    Although, none of this may be the answer, I think it's important that people understand the designers intended for you not to kill each other but for you to work as a team.
     
  14. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    6,680
    Likes Received:
    824
    I kind of like this idea. I only wonder if it's a tad bit extreme.
     
  15. red sky

    red sky Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    707
    Likes Received:
    7
    Nah, factions are fine. There's good reason to join and the system is okay because in order to get the good items you have to keep your kill points up. If you don't want to go into stat loss and wait a measly 20 minutes (which is good for some of us because it allows us to go do something other than UO) then go kill monsters or mine some ore. Other than that this is the first time in a long time factions have actually been active and fun to play and there's even a reason to capture sigils now (remember it used to be you only captured them to be the "dominant" faction) but now you can control where invasions occur. It would be nice if there were more involvement other than that but I believe they are perfectly fine. They allow a player to get uber items with a cost and if you don't like going into stat loss because you opened a faction trapped chest in tram or died from a faction monster then go quit your faction and log out for 3 days. That's my 2 cents on the issue.
     
  16. Tom_Builder

    Tom_Builder Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2002
    Messages:
    1,396
    Likes Received:
    0

    I dont think the OP was really worried about stat loss. It's more about being killed by your own faction members. I love factions and have been in and out of them for a long time.

    It does seem that now we have more inner faction deaths then before, but untill there is something for the killer to lose it will only get worst not better. I think that large guilds who join factions want to keep the entire faction as it's own. I have no problem with it. I just went to another faction. At least now when they attack me, I get kill points.

    As for Tram, I would love to see it active in tram. That way I can kill all the same people who attack me when I was in the same faction. They are all afk at luna bank.

    Tom
     
  17. Capricious

    Capricious Guest

    I like this idea a lot. Honestly, I get attacked by same faction more than x-faction and it really is annoying. I don't say make same faction unattackable, but let there be some sort of penalty. The option to report would have to be a must as many spar.
     
  18. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    One of the main reasons that people should want to join a Faction is so they can become one with a much larger group and without having to leave their guild.

    Factions are unique just as the guilds in UO. If systems are not put into place to protect the elements that are in place now will act as a cancer. For example: the mutation of many smaller seperate guilds being eaten up and destroyed and even the inner most fabric of the faction system itself becomming vulnerable to absolute power.

    Kind of like when you design a submarine. If it is not designed properly it will blow up. Sure for a time period everything can seem very healthy but in actuality by the time it begins to show it will be to late.

    So, it's important we don't look at the present as being a sign that everything is the way it should be. What we need to do is look at the future and understand how the present system will affect us in the long run.

    If I pick a faction to join and then I am killed out of it, imagine how most players will react. Then, imagine the possibilites of people being treated cruely. This will have a very negative affect on new players comming into the game.

    The same thing with guild kills. As long as there is no penalty then the guild system will continue to be abused, so will the alliance system. One of the things that I was recently told by a member of my guild who has moved into WoW is that WoW is like a giant Trammel facet, where everyone works as a team. I think that UO is better because it allows conflict between players but at the same time it has to be capable of everything that WoW is and more if you ever expect to recover any players from these types of games.
     
  19. Kojak

    Kojak Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,012
    Likes Received:
    696
    ... when fantasy meets reality ... (seriously, did you really expect LNR not to kill you?)
     
  20. red sky

    red sky Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    707
    Likes Received:
    7
    Yes, I understand what you are trying to say. Basically, you are saying that players that you are not friendly with are in the same faction as you and tend to fight you when they get the chance. This is basically the same as if they were reds and you are a blue (not that I know who's red or blue) but look at it as an advantage. The players who do this kind of stuff are at more risk than if you weren't in a faction. Considering you and the said players are in the same faction, if an enemy faction decides to attack while you are fighting these players than they may be pk'd by the enemy faction and gain stat loss. This would be a result because they couldn't properly support their own faction and fight the enemy faction. I myself, playing a red (murderer) who is apart of a faction (TB) have murdered many fellow TB members just because I don't like them. This often has to do with people joining the faction that were enemies before joining the faction. So therefore, you obviously have a feud with someone who doesn't like you or you don't like or there is someone who just likes to PK other players for the fun of PKing. The only solution is to PK them back until they figure that you are a quarry to risky of fighting.
     
  21. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    There are alot of issues that don't make it that simple. One of the main things I think is that your looking at it from a murderers style. One of the problems with killing everyone is then your no better than the cause your fighting for. I am a blue. I do not kill other players. My code of honor is to not attack unless attacked.

    This reminds me of a time when there were about 25 of us, all blue, who came up on a very large group of reds. The tension was very high and the adrenaline between us, i'm sure was flowing. We were able to move on without fighting each other because of this simple code. Neither side attacked, therefore we remained neutral.

    A red player to me is just as imporant as the blue player because it is my counter part. Without the red I have nothing to fight or overcome. My entire guild is designed on this honor. There are other issues. When new players join the guild, they must first join factions. This makes it complicated if you can not trust your own faction.

    Being a team of stealther/archers, what we do is target, kill and move. So, in essance your asking me to kill them without allowing the opportunity to know if they are truely my enemy or not. So, I can't just kill people to show that I am a more powerful foe.

    Also, my philosphy on PvP is different than most. When I engage in a battle it is not simply the issue of killing them but allowing them the chance to actually fight so that we can learn from each other. There are alot of one hit wonders in the game but once you understand their technique it is simply a matter of changing one thing to be able to beat them. To me this is no challenge. That's why I kind of enjoy team oriented combat.

    An example is a game of chess. If you beat me your the winner. If I beat you then i'm the winner. To me in both these instances there is no winner because you simply play off the move of the other player. So, in reality, it was their moves that allowed you to win, not your own. A stalemate is a true win because neither player could manipulate the other into a win or a loss and both equally beat the game of chess.

    So, this is my enjoyment of the game. To be able to control the moves, to be able to see the outcome before it is there. I consider myself a teacher to myself.

    Which is what brought me to this statement, It is easier to kill a man than it is to save him.

    So, I don't think killing everyone would be the right answer unless the system penalizes a red character then it diminishes what being a red is all about and takes away from me as well.

    I just think that if everyone went red, you would probably shave your head, put on a robe and head to brit bank.
     
  22. Splup

    Splup Guest

    People in same factions attacking each other is crap.

    Dunno what should be done about it, but it's ****. If you don't want to fight for you faction, don't join factions. Even old enemy guilds who join same faction should try to burry the hatchet.

    A player who doesnt have many friends in UO and has no guild can join Faction to get support and learn PvP. But then there's these dorks who kill them just cause they are not in same guild... On both shards I play I'm in dominant faction guild, and we have always welcomed new faction members warmly, and never attacked them. Too bad situation isnt same in all factions/shards.