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Factions Statloss

Discussion in 'UO Test Center' started by Phoenix_Mythic, Apr 15, 2010.

  1. Phoenix_Mythic

    Phoenix_Mythic UO Legend
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    On the subject of statloss, it is something we plan to change. Currently on the Factions test center, it is 5 minutes.

    There are currently several ideas on the table:
    1> Straight up eliminate it, or reduce it to anywhere from 2 to 10 minutes. Or, make it incremental in strength and/or duration.
    2> Make statloss shorter based on the number of towns your faction controls
    3> Make it something you can buy off or partially reduce in duration and/or severity, with silver (e.g. a consumable you can purchase from the faction item / artifact vendor)
    4> Shorten statloss, and eliminate it when the person who killed you dies

    All of these ideas have merits and drawbacks, as well as different levels of time required to implement and test.

    The purpose of statloss is to make it possible for one side in a Factions battle to create a definitive victory. It does this by weakening the losing side to the point where they have to just quit fighting for a while. The downside of it is it sucks to be weakened that much and for so long. The ability to gain control of territory comes at a cost of making players unable to enjoy their play.

    So, the question to answer is, where is the balance?

    On one side, UO PvP is fun while you’re fighting, but very un-fun when you lose. Insurance, item loss, having to get ressed and re-equip, etc., are all barriers that keep people from wanting to PvP. They also keep people from being able to learn PvP, without lots of support from other players. Factions adds statloss on top of all that.

    Putting it another way, UO PvP is too hardcore. Those who have the know-how and the equipment just crush it. They kill a lot more often than they die, so it’s the un-skilled and underequipped who end up suffering the penalties more. With such harsh penalties, it is no wonder at all that people lose interest in playing Factions, or never seriously consider playing it in the first place.

    One of the goals for this update to Factions is to make the system more appealing to more players. This doesn’t mean we want to make it into an easy game, or level the playing field, or make it so you can just respawn and run back in when you die. It does mean we want to look at various ways we can soften it up some so people can spent more time PvPing and less time dealing with downtime created by PvPing. We want to make it more fun, with larger and longer battles.

    The other side of the balance issue is the need to be able to take enemies out of the fight in Factions. It just doesn’t work if you roll over a bunch of enemies and they just come in and roll you back in a couple minutes.

    In addition to considering ideas about modifying statloss itself, I’d like to see some ideas of alternatives that achieve the needed effect but in some other way. For example, what if instead of statloss, you were simply not allowed to approach within a couple screens’ distance of the place where you died, for ten minutes?

    Please discuss these things on this thread. Let’s talk about penalties for death, casual versus hardcore, and faction territory control.
     
  2. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Fighting without stat loss, where you can just res and come back, has been occurring for years at champ spawns. It just continues until one side is completely crushed, or the champ died. For a base defense, if sigil timers were perhaps shorter, this would be something like that.


    But what if when you died to a faction enemy you were debuffed for a small period rather than unskilled. Maybe drop your hp/stam/mana, or your resistances for a shortened period of time.

    Maybe keep a similiar stat loss, but have a consumable that can be purchased with silver, and insurable. Make it similiar to the faction runes, you can use it once an hour, but it will clear your stat loss. If you get statted right after you use it...shame on you.
     
  3. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    1> Straight up eliminate it, or reduce it to anywhere from 2 to 10 minutes. Or, make it incremental in strength and/or duration.

    No.


    2> Make statloss shorter based on the number of towns your faction controls

    I'd be ok with this.

    3> Make it something you can buy off or partially reduce in duration and/or severity, with silver (e.g. a consumable you can purchase from the faction item / artifact vendor)

    Thats stupid. No more items.

    4> Shorten statloss, and eliminate it when the person who killed you dies

    No.
     
  4. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    I think stat loss needs to stay because, as you pointed out, it makes it easier to have a definite winner and a definite loser in a particular battle.

    I definitely don't like idea #3. Buying your way out of stat loss is a bad idea, in my opinion. It favors those who have the money and/or the time to acquire silver and items and eventually might keep people who have less of these commodities from wanting to participate in factions.

    What I would like to see in factions are more reasons to depend on each other but that aren't easily exploitable by people who run multiple accounts.

    What do you think of the idea of continuing to have a stat loss period, perhaps just 12-15 minutes instead of 20, but with the possibility of having the effects of stat loss lessened but not completely eliminated if you are jointly rezzed by two or more faction mates who have a certain set of skills or have built up to a certain level in something similar to the compassion virtue?
     
  5. Arabella

    Arabella Lore Keeper
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    What she said!
     
  6. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Hmm interesting.... using one of the virtues to keep your stat loss timer lowered....

    and maybe that virtue can be based off of something you do in factions.. im not sure what at the moment.


    but please please please, no matter what the timer or anything is, give us a timer that we can see!!!!

    I'd love to know how much longer i'd be in stat, versus going ok hmm, i died at 10:42... i was killed again at 10:49... lets see, so i should come out of stat at 11:09, **** i died at 11:07.. ok 11:27 now? I rarely look at the clock.. lol
     
  7. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    What about using punkte to affect the timer to an extent. You can spend up to x amount of points to knock off x amount of time off the timer?
     
  8. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    I kind of like that idea but would rather see instead of knocking off time, spending some of your kill points lessens the severity of the skill loss. People can still play, if they choose, but they may need to have their faction mates kind of looking after them a bit for a while.
     
  9. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    I think thats a better idea.
     
  10. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    i personally wish they would leave skill loss alone and actually make it stat loss. (that is only if they leave it all alone, 20min timer and all) if they actually change the timer or some way of how it works, then skill is acceptable.


    I would rather play with all of my skill, but like 30/40% less hp/mana/stamina. A simple combo could probably destroy you, but you wont be completely out of the fight.

    at 40%, someone running with max hit points at 150 would be at 90 while in stat loss. They could still do anything the normally would do in a fight, but would be a quick kill.

    Someone with 120 hp would be knocked down to 72 hp.


    181 stamina (an archer) would be rendered to 109 stamina, etc etc etc.
     
  11. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Hmm, that does not fix the problem though, of trying to get more people into factions, and into pvp.

    Like the dev said, if someone less skilled and less talented wants to come get his feet wet, he will not have the points to spend to get out/lower of stat loss. But people who have been pvping for years will be able to spend points no problem.


    I'd personally like a system that is fair to everyone, i want more people to pvp with/against. not slowly dwindling like it is right now.
     
  12. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    I've go mixed feelings about that. Lowering stats wouldn't stop a trap remover or someone who is stealthed and detecting or tracking. It also wouldn't stop a thief from stealing sigils. They might have trouble pushing through stuff but could get around that with pots and items, or do like I sometimes do, and just wait for stamina to regen.
     
  13. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    Lower stats wouldn't really be a definative victory. It depends if they keep the point system the same. Then everyone will have 500000000+ points.
     
  14. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    ahh i see your point on that, there is very little inbetween ground. To get more people involved in factions/pvp in general, i think something has to be seriously done with stat loss.

    But to appease the battle tested, faction veterans (though a minority anymore) they want everything back to the way it used to be.


    i see why the devs are struggling with this.
     
  15. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    It would be difficult. Theyre taking the problem of some trammie, lets call him Joe, who's never pvped. How do we keep Joe in factions if he can't pvp and doesn't want to stay in stat loss vs keeping it balanced for everyone just because Joe sucks?
     
  16. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    True, but maybe eventually, with some help, Joe can begin to pvp.


    You cant tell me you never got your ass kicked and came back to figure out what he did and what you are going to do next time.

    In this case (stat loss), Joe cannot come back without being worse than he already is.



    We need to inject new blood into the pvp systems, fighting the same people day in and out is getting old (and the number is falling)
    Hell i saw a bunch of YM role players in despice the one night, they came down to try to stat some FKD we were fighting in despice. a few of them left dead, but i did stop to praise them for their efforts.
     
  17. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    I've got my ass handed to me plenty of times. Still do. But I never left because I enjoyed fighting factions in a group and having the definitive victory and base fights etc.

    But not as many people want to take time to learn factions because they are in stat loss.

    So if there is no stat loss there has to be a way to define victory without having to constantly fight the same people over and over without a break for 10 hours or until someone wins.
     
  18. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    I agree, maybe that 10 hour timer is way too long.

    Think of how a champ spawn is setup, you fight and fight and fight until either one group gets beat and gives up, or one group leaves with the power scrolls. If they didn't have to defend a base for 10 hours, then they wouldn't have to worry about it. They changed this once before though, and i remember it seeming too short =/ hmmm...

    i'll keep my brain turning lol
     
  19. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    I don't necessarily want to keep things the way they are. I understand that skill loss deters many from participating in factions. However, it has been interesting to see a number of people who used to hate it somewhat grudgingly now admit that the concept of being weakened after your enemy kills you is important so you aren't constantly at a stalemate.

    I also want a much more level playing field where you can't buy your way out of inconvenience. And I'm definitely in favor of just about anything that can be added to factions to promote the concept of being stronger and better if you work together as a team.
     
  20. Chap

    Chap Babbling Loonie
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    I have a slightly different approach to stattloss:

    Dying to an oposing faction is an act your faction is not pleased with. Thinking of something along the lines of "your own faction is unpleased with your performance".
    To please your own faction again (to reduce statt loss) youll have to kill faction monsters of an opposing faction. Then you show loyalty to your own faction and your stattloss is reduced.

    This idea adds a meaning to statloss aswell as the actuall stattloss itself.
    The idea opens up for making a pre-emptive buffer to stattloss aswell, by killing monsters in advance your stattloss will be lower the next time it occur.


    As a side note statloss is not that hardcore anymore, now with +items the effects are not that bad. I can agree to lower the stattloss from its original 20min, but not lower than 10. If you have too low stattloss time there will be unlimited raids as people ress up too quick.
    Today people have multiple accounts aswell so dying on one char, just log on another and play, meaning no stattloss at all.
     
  21. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    The problem about decreasing the corruption time is continually having to run back and forth. It ran everyone ragged.


    To change that to a win lose situation once you lost the sigils the game would be over for however long.

    I don't think thats really feasible.


    Back to stat loss, if this were done away with theyd have to incorporate some sort of time out period to compensate like not being able to be rezed for x amount of time. But I think that sucks and would be achieving the same thing as decreasing the stat timer.
     
  22. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    This isn't Factions' fault. Killing a player in 2 seconds has nothing to do with any of the faction systems. It is about PVP balancing.

    Reducing the stat loss timer to 5-10 minutes will wreck the whole purpose of it. A good champion spawn fight already lasts 10+ minutes. Sometimes the fighting can go for an hour straight. If stat loss is reduced to 5 minutes, it makes it infinitely more difficult to put down the other side completely.

    If Factions got as popular as it did when it was first introduced, we had fights which went on for hours. Stat loss certainly does not hinder the ability to fight constantly. It is the current PVP balancing which makes stat loss a lot more painful than it used to be.


    Furthermore, a lot of people have the wrong mentality about stat loss. They act like they are locked in a room for 20 minutes, unable to play. That is 100% wrong. You can still do a lot to help in the fight. You can heal, resurrect people, mages can still cast fields and damage spells. Tamers can still control their pets with jewelry. It basically comes down to player's don't want stat loss because it hurts them. They would also like 100 million gold deposited in the bank every time you login.
     
  23. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    If it is a determination of this I'd rather have them wipe the rank requirement for equipment out instead of affecting the stat loss timer. The know how simply comes with experience.
     
  24. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Then add something that is appealing. Faction artifacts were a rather small addition, but look how many people joined just to use them.

    Right now there is absolutely 100% no reason to spend the 10 hours to capture a town. War horses are bonded, so you never lose them. Resource vendors can be used by everyone. Faction crafted items are expensive and useless.

    If your pets got a 10% bonus to their damage when you own all 8 towns, every person who farms monsters would be interested in getting into Factions. Just make the bonuses different for each faction so that player are naturally divided between them. Then everyone will fight for their rewards.
     
  25. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Yea never quite understood that. Faction vendors should only be able to be used by the faction controlling those vendors. And to prevent people from just having a char in a faction to buy them, maybe attach a rank requirement to using them
     
  26. funkymonkey

    funkymonkey Lore Keeper
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    just to throw a different perspective on stat loss instead of skill penalty, maybe going along the lines of item penalty's, since UO is item heavy and people invest alot of time in it, maybe just place a timer of like 15mins and everything they wear / use take a hit of i dunno 30% reduction in there total armour/weapons...

    i like people saying there should be a huge penalty for dying but i think skills are done to death now...

    and i like a timer u can physical see when your getting out .

    one thing for sure people who use pets in faction pvp should also have there pets go in stat.
     
  27. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    :thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1:
     
  28. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    The only other option in relation to time would be a small amount of actual skill reduction when you die like pets. Ie you die but you lose say 1 pt of skill.
     
  29. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Been there, done that as a red when stat loss effected red like this. Don't think that was very fun, id rather lose fake skill for 20minutes then real skill all together lol
     
  30. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    I agree
     
  31. tink'r_toiz

    tink'r_toiz Journeyman
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    :thumbup1:

    AMEN... the first thing I was told when I started factions ... So you died, get rezzed, get dressed and get your @$$ back into the fight... even if you are a meat shield/stam blocker you can participate. It is just that too many feel if they can't "win" there is no point to play. My greatest moments (and most fun) have come from rezzing, no pots, no box, no nothing and running right back into a base and getting a sig out. Thieves can run in loss with shadow dancers and a bandana and these days, very few expect you to do it because they are so use to everyone going off and waiting out loss. My mages just step off the fielding line and go to dedicated healing. Stat loss is as much a state of mind as a state of being in the game. Stat loss makes you play smarter and tougher.

    The victories are so much sweeter when you really have to work for them and you have a risk to the fight. Modification to stat loss is definitely doable, removal would be awful.
     
  32. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Not everything in stat loss anymore is about base defense. if you are in a fight out in the forests near brit with 2 large groups of people, stat loss will knock you out of the fight. You cannot just be dedicated healer because, with 80 magery, or 80 wrestling, whatever ur defense is, you will get 3 shot by an archer. with 80 resist, you will be chain parad. in a base fight stat isn't a big deal, like you mentioned, you pull of the front line, and you go into support mode.
     
  33. Paps

    Paps Journeyman
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    1-no.
    2-not a bad idea however this may only end up helping the faction with the most amount of people in it.
    3-no. Horrible idea. This would only lead to more people spending rl cash for uo gold to buy massive amounts of silver because you know damn well they dont farm it themselves.[they want to pvp,,,not pvm farm silver]
    4-kinda undecided on this one,,,maybe not eliminated but reduced by say 5 minits if the person whom statted you dies.
    the gameplay should not be balanced to those whom are "un-skilled and underequipped" there is a reason that a day one char gets whooped if they walk into fel yew gate.Imbuing + faction gear combined makes it to where anyone can make great suits so under equipped should no longer be a concern [because if they are under equipped its their own fault] and that leaves "un-skilled" now,,,,,in pro bowling they dont remove 3-4 bowling pins for the guy who sucks to make it simpler for him to get strikes each round.
    If your wanting to draw more tram only players into felluca,,,well good luck with that.I can't say for shards other than Atl but i know the largest guild on the shard almost `forbids` its members from going into fel and discourages any activity there.It's GM claiming that Fel is an `poisonous environment`[reffering to the gameplay itself] So he has a good portion of the shard afraid to walk into any red moongate.
    As far as unskilled or `casual` players you know,,,"Bart" who just has a long crappy day at work,,,gets home,,logs onto uo..Bart would rather just easily kill everything he encounters than to face the real challenge of other people.
    This type of player your just not going to entice into the fel aspect of the game.If you `care-bear` pvp to where its all RNG only that decides fights i beleive you will lose interest in thhe game as anyone could easily go play any FPS for that.

    As far as faction towns,Link is right that nobody anymore tries to hold them and there is no real reason to even try.The incentive is the faction horses.Which once a person has them,,,they have no reason to help hold a town.Most would rather just transfer them from another shard than to babysit a town for ten hours.Now if UO had 20 times its active playerbase maybe ten hours wouldnt be so bad but lets be real here,,ten hour timers are a f@#$ing joke. I think 4-5 hours tops would be reasonable.Because what one person cant babysit [a town] in one sitting alone wont be feasable and you get what we have now,,,people x-ferring horses instead of fighting for towns. Beyond that though,,,once people have the horses they lose ALL INTEREST in holding a town. So the idea of shortening statloss say 1 minute per town held isnt so bad.Lets say statloss total was reduced to 15 then a minus 1 minute per town,,also if it can be worked in so as to avoid people from merely logging onto alt chars to ``dodge`` statloss it be so you cannot log into other chars on your acc while in statloss.[just an idea there,,still wont help those with 2+ accs]

    Statloss for peoples pets in factions---yes[or disable firebreath on dreadmares for owners in statloss]
     
  34. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Could also take alot of these ideas, and wrap them together. say a 15min stat timer, and it is lowered 1 minute per town you own, and you can also get out of stat if the person who killed you dies.


    and make pets take stat loss plz =)
     
  35. Lord Strahd

    Lord Strahd Guest


    Im going to quote MYSELF from a different thread because it pertains to here. You want a balance then the answer is not to penalize us with stat loss. Give the dominating faction rewards and a the weaker factions a reason to fight.
     
  36. JoO

    JoO Seasoned Veteran
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    I like the retribution idea ie: get out of stat when your killer dies. I wouldn't mind seeing something outside the box either. Example being you die, and go into stat. Get resed get back into the fight, your beneficial and harmful actions have a small chance to bring you out of stat. You could get a system message to the effect; Your dedication to the battle and to your comrades causes your spirit to surge and you recover your strength!
     
  37. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    :thumbup1::thumbup1: Like it. You do enough damage to your enemies, or heal your allies, and get out of stat loss. Still dont like the fact that u are knocked down in your defense skill, and could get 3 hit owned by a dexer lol
     
  38. JoO

    JoO Seasoned Veteran
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    Yeah, you would either have to have an alternate set of jewelry to get your evade skill back up to a respectable level or off screen every time an archer highlights. But it beats sittin at the bank or at my house :p.
     
  39. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    maybe even if you get a kill/kill shot it knocks you out of stat. So your guild could "hold up" an opponent, take his "skill" and transfer it to you when you kill him.
     
  40. Lord Strahd

    Lord Strahd Guest

    We are trying to encourage people to play factions, not give them a reason to do something else. The whole premise of stat loss is so self defeating to factions.

    Think about how to make it more appealing not shoot it up with lame crap rules that suck the fun out of it.

    Let me tell you a very interesting fact.

    Ive been faction commander for the true britanian faction for a month now and its because there isnt anyone running against me.

    Why is that?

    Its because no one cares about factions anymore at least on chessy. This is the time to change all that. Its time we start thinking outside of the box and coming up with fun stuff to change this into a system worth participating in.

    Otherwise , lets just axe the whole thing and forget about it, and stop wasting all our time.
     
  41. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    Fail..
    Fail..
    Fail...
     
  42. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    going to reply just to this part for now, the rest is to long.

    Point 1: no. stat loss is in need, it is not a forced thing, despite what half the people think you can still pvp with out being in factions.

    2: Could be ok....Or perhaps one town gives a reduced stat time, but controlling all the towns would increase this benefit?
    3: I like the idea of using a virtue to remove the stat loss, or even using kill points to reduce the amount of stat loss (not the time though) I do not like the idea of an item though, or even using silver to buy it off. In fact...Forget removing it at all, either using points or a virtue to lessen the effects.
    4: I still disagree with shortening it, and "eliminating it" when the person dies, only if you kill them, could be ok, perhaps. I am mostly against point 4 but....I don't know maybe some checks and balances and pleanty of testing (balance would be only if You kill the person who put you in stat).
     
  43. Lord Strahd

    Lord Strahd Guest

    cardell quit trolling ...post something worth posting or quit. You remind me of a little kid waving his hands around in front of everyone saying look at me please!
     
  44. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    The devs are carebears.. We're ****ed.

    Why is underequiped players suffering? Because the armor system YOU guys imported straight from Diablo.... Why are they underskilled? Because characters are born into Trammel where they are babied and hit from the big bad pvpers.. They grow soft and squishy. Then when they are introduced to Fel, where people are serious and competitive, there gear doesn't stack up well.. AND since skill plays such a small role in pvp today.. most ppl rly on their perfect armor to do all the hard work.

    Blame yourselves for ****ing it all up.. Don't ruin the last good parts of the game we are trying to hold onto.
     
  45. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    And you remind of a dork who is like lvl 90 warlock trying to stick his noes into a pvp system and say you are trying to fix it with a bunch of terrible wow/trammy ideas.. Not only are they horrible ideas but they are based off such minute experience. You have zero credibility but you flaunt you ideas like they sound as good as they do in your head posted on the forums. Which I assure you, they do not.
     
  46. Zara

    Zara Guest

    I beg you to please leave stat loss alone! I do not think you are considering the consequences of this action.

    There are so many other things that need attention and this is not one of them. To change the stat loss would upset what little balance factions has at the moment.
     
  47. Lord Strahd

    Lord Strahd Guest

    I would beg to differ with you on experience. I played UO back when there was no trammy at all. I also remember when factions first started up.

    Also Ive played countless MMORPGs

    UO , EQ, SWG, WOW, DAoC, Shadowbane, LoTRo, DDO, E&B, 9dragons, Lineage II, on and on and on.

    In LoTR I was the first rank 5 / 6 / 7 reaver. Was in the top pvp monster guild there. Held the most death blow count for a very long time.

    I have seen fun pvp and my friend this is not a working pvp faction system. Its lame as your forum signature that looks like its written in crayon.
     
  48. AzSel

    AzSel Lore Keeper
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    Something like this could definately work, altho how would you loot your corpse... But the idea of not being in stat loss, just not able to go back and gank someone back where you was recently owned...yea could work.
     
  49. A Rev

    A Rev Guest

    There is one thing i dislike about stat loss the way it is implemented at the moment.

    That is, it doesnt actually affect a dexer that adversly.

    A dexer can still perform all specials, they just have a penalty to hit chance and damage.

    The tactics drop isnt actually doing anything because you need real skill to perform specials. If stat loss is to be kept then this needs to be addressed. Someone with 90 tactics, when they hit stat they shouldnt be able to perform specials.

    Personally i like the idea someone else put forward and that is that you cannot take a res for 5mins or so. This should give enough time for a group to wipe out the opposition and win. It penalises dying without penalising there game play when the timer is out.
     
  50. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    You're trying to change the faction system to fix pvp, thats not gonna work. It's gotta be the other way around for you to make that argument. Sorry, nice try though.

    Also all those MMOs aren't worth a damn accept maybe SWG (precu). PVP in those games could probably be related better to solitaire than UO..

    and wtf are you talking about dude.. my sig is the ****.