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Fields and AoE's should be Neutral

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Llewen, Jan 3, 2010.

  1. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    By this I mean the damage should affect everyone that moves through them, regardless of status as friendly or enemy. This is my suggestion for dealing with the current tactic of putting down a (greater) conflagration pot and standing in the middle, which when combined with ep and alchemy is grossly overpowered.

    I don't want to see this skill combination weakened, but this business of being able to stand in the fires of Hell, simply because you were the one that happened to create them, is ridiculous, imho.

    Discuss if you wish.
     
  2. Splup

    Splup Guest

    Mages and guilds playing mages benefit the most from the situation going on right now, para and poisonfields and area spells.

    And mages deffo don't need another nerf against dexers(mainly archers) now. So sry but you don't get my vote.
     
  3. Boba

    Boba Adventurer
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    If you're playing any sort of melee character, that's your problem right there.

    Simply play an overpowered archer, stand just outside of the conflag field, throw some purple potions and shoot away! If they run, gun them down with UOassist macro'd purple pots and moving shot.

    If you find that they actually know what they're doing, simply turn tail and run!

    This is UO PVP of 2010. Enjoy!
     
  4. Drazasamus

    Drazasamus Guest

    remeber how old fire fields used to work even against the caster... it should still be this way.

    how stupid can someone be to stand in the middle of a fire... bah
     
  5. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    One sided superficial I just got owned crap like this should be in R&F...

    Why? Mages are the most UNDERPOWERED template in the game ATM...to nerf them any further would turn them into mules...
     
  6. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    I think the creation of this thread speaks volumes on the matter. :lol:
     
  7. Cear Dallben Dragon

    Cear Dallben Dragon Babbling Loonie
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    there is no way in hell you are even thinking about conflags being overpowered in pvp. and when it comes to pvm, you could still just run in circles around the fire field. and to be blunt, there not over powered at all. im a GM alchy with max EP, and the damage is laughable on high end bosses. and if the field did hurt me. standing in the middle of it would deal a petty 7 a tick.
     
  8. Cear Dallben Dragon

    Cear Dallben Dragon Babbling Loonie
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    Second thought, the only place in sosaria that they are decent, is champ spawns and my answer to that is, wither.
     
  9. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Yep that's exactly what I think. And anyone who thinks this tactic isn't overpowered hasn't had it used on them. A gm alchy with 50 ep can take down any character with 70 fire resist in three ticks, and that's just pure (greater) conflag pot damage. You add in any other kind of attack combination and it is almost a one hit kill.
     
  10. Spree

    Spree Babbling Loonie
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    I remember cast my first ev and it killed everyone in the guild even me.
     
  11. Alezi

    Alezi Lore Keeper
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    :bowdown:
     
  12. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Wait so this isnt even a dexer whinning about mage post (or at least he used conflag pot to try to make it look legit). So you are saying conflag pot is overpowered now?

    And 50EP GM alchy conflag kill people in 70 fire resist in 3 ticks? :coco: Yea It's possible if that dude you killed is redlined down to like 10 hp.

    I think everything in game should work like AoE and have friendly fire turned on for everyone not just pots and mages. At least now when I am getting moving shot ganked by 5 no skill archer speeder zerg squad they will be shooting their own guys in the back before they can get to me. I think it's very reasonable, realistic and fair. Only ******** people would run in front of their friends knowing they are going to be spamming moving shots nonstop from behind right :D :loser::coco:

    Actually friendly fire sounds like an acceptable way to fix the no brain archer issues.
     
  13. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    That was back when the game didn't hold your hand while you played it, before it became Ultima Carebear Online. Back when you actually had to think about what you were doing, before you did it, and the game didn't do your thinking for you. Back when the game was, oh ya, a lot more fun.

    Don't get me wrong, I still love UO, and still I think it's a terrific game, but it definitely has lost an awful lot of it's edge over the years. Even SP is a pale imitation of how challenging and fun the game used to be, on all the shards.

    And unlike the op, this particular post does belong in the SR forum... ;)
     
  14. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    I also remember when archer automatically miss if they take even one(1) step within 2 second of firing a bolt or arrow. I also remember bandaids takes at least 8 second to go off and one(1) damage is enough to cause finger slip and lose 50% of the healing efficiency. Archers taking at least 2.5 second to fire even the fastest bow at time (composite) with capped out stam. Oh and dexers unable to swing their weapon while moving. Mages capable of killing any dexer in 3 to 4 spells max without need to curse them first.

    If you are as old school as I do you will understand all of the above. :D
     
  15. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    Are you talking about Trammel? Or Felucca?

    The current ruleset is as follows:

    • Area attacks (like explosion potions, field spells, area attack spells, etc.) will not damage people who are in your own guild or alliance, i.e. people who highlight green to you. They only will damage people from an enemy guild, i.e. people who highlight orange to you.
    • In Felucca, magic area attacks will also damage blue persons. However, potions will damage those who are flagged as agressors (grey), orange or red, but will NOT damage blue persons.

    To my opinion, these rules are a bit stupid. I think they should be like this:

    • In Trammel, area attacks should damage green AND orange players.
    • In Felucca, area attacks should damage ANYONE alike.
     
  16. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I hate to say this, but you two have obviously never faced this. I guarantee you, a greater conflagration pot put down by a character with gm alchemy and 50 ep, will kill any character within three ticks, possibly barring the use of gift of renewal. Far be it from me Cear to tell you you don't know what you are talking about, but in this case you obviously don't.

    (Now of course I haven't actually tested this tactic myself, I've only had it used against me, so maybe it isn't just GM alchemy and 50 ep, maybe there's a bug and sdi is also modifying the damage, or something else that I am not aware of, but whatever the exact specifics are, the nut of what I am saying is true, this tactic will take down any character, regardless of resists, within three ticks, and in one tick any character will lose almost 50% health. I have tested that out, and the person that used it on me the first time, when I came back with a wtf after I died was kind enough to show me exactly what had just happened to me. I was at full health, with 70 fire resist, he laid down a greater conflag, I ran through it, and in two ticks, I was almost dead. There were no other factors involved, he didn't cast on me, or curse me, or attack me, in any other way.)

    This isn't a common tactic right now, but I guarantee you now, with the power of imbuing, it is about to become a lot more common. And it isn't just mages that can use this tactic against dexxers, it is archers as well. When archers and mages clue in to just how powerful this tactic is, dexxers won't be able to close on either of them to make a kill.

    I love imbuing, I think it's great fun, but imbuing has made it possible to craft very specific killer suits with very specific tactics in mind. I am not a rich player by any stretch of the imagination, but my main character has a suit with 40 lmc, 45 dci, 11 mr, 100 lrc, 6/2 casting, 60 extra useful skill points, and 60+ in every resist and a few other assorted mods.

    A suit like that would have been almost unheard of before imbuing, but now it is nothing special, and it is suits like that that are making the tactics we are discussing in this thread possible. And as more and more people become aware of the true power of imbuing, suits like that, and tactics like those being discussed in this thread, are going to become much more common.
     
  17. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    100% /signed
     
  18. Nystul

    Nystul Lore Master
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    Ask that withers hit your own guildmates?. Oh wait, while you're at it a wither should also hit the caster! Right?!



    It don't talk a genius to realize that fields/aoe's have been acting the way they have for years & years for a reason... and they aren't going to be changed :x
     
  19. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    You are right, there's a reason why it is like it is. But that doesn't mean it has to be good. Whithering through a Champ Spawn is the sorriest excuse for a PvM event I can think of. It requires neither skill nor ability to spam spells on monsters without even having to think about who of your friends you would hit.

    The reason why it is why it is: Because people want everything to be handed to them on a silver platter. The only goal is: Get as many items/arties/rewards as possible, with the least amount of effort.I always thought, what makes a game fun is its challenge. In UO, PvM is a joke, not a challenge.
     
  20. Cear Dallben Dragon

    Cear Dallben Dragon Babbling Loonie
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    WTF?

    Well I did. 70 fire resist VS max EP and alchemy. 8 Ticks standing in the conflag. Highest damage was 8 lowest was 6. Nowhere near dead. not to mention smart people dont stand in the middle of the conflag for its entire duration. Ive been an alchemist for 12 years. NEVER QUESTION ME AGAIN!!!:yell:

    NEXT!!!!!!!!
     
  21. Beer_Cayse

    Beer_Cayse Guest

    Ummm, it's always been my contention that the Paladin spells (at least) have been borked as compared to their definition.

    Example: Dispel Evil - "Attempts to dispel evil summoned creatures and cause other evil creatures to flee from combat. Transformed Necromancers may also take Stamina and Mana damage. Caster's Karma and Chivalry, and Target's Fame and Necromancy affect Dispel Chance." Note the bold/red part? How come a Paladin can cast that and if a Wandering Healer (blue/non-evil) is within the AOE, he attacks the hapless Paladin.

    Holy Light - "Deals energy damage to all valid targets in a radius around the caster. Amount of damage dealt is affected by caster's Karma, from 8 to 24 hit points" This does the same as it considers a blue NPC a valid target.

    A Paladin is inherently good reputation-wise. Thus "valid targets" are those who are negative in reputation or aggro flagging. In either of these examples - PvM playstyle - a Priest of Mondain is a valid target (evil by alignment) and SHOULD attack if damaged. A Wandering Healer, cougars, black bears, etc - should NOT be damaged.

    IMO, in the PvP arena, a conflag pot is an AOE aggro, thus flagging the caster/tosser to the Paladin - making the above spells then useful fighting THAT evil. Simplistic, I know ... but hey - I've only had 1 smoke and 2 cups of coffee so far today.
     
  22. Back when I had 100 Alchemy 120 E.P when that was possible they did 11 per tick against 70 Fire resist.
    When I had 100 Alchemy 80 E.P they did 9 per tick against 70 Fire resist.

    They're doing 40+ to you? (Dead from 3 ticks?) With what Fire resist? Sounds like a bug but either way if the problem is with Conflags then change Conflags not all AOE.
     
  23. Vexxed

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    Here's my guess... The OP specified TICS as in 0.25 Seconds..... He did not say he was standing still for that whole time. If I remember correctly you take the dmg each Tic AND everytime you move to a new tile in a conflag. If you can move say 3 tiles in 1 TIC and are stupid enough to do so that could potentially be 7 x 3 = 21 per TIC... Which is much closer. I'm just guessing how how far you can move in 1 TIC as well.. I know some people that can completely offscreen (The long way ~15 Tiles) in < 2 Seconds..
    Anyway.. reguardless if this is TRUE.. OP just needs to not RUN AROUND in the conflag heh.. common sense.

    Ps.. The last time I saw this used it was by a mage with 50% EP and he'd use conflag, Target self while running away and if you were chasing him you could lose 1/3 of your life running through the whole conflag.. but quite a few people would do that and then eat a cobo after lol..
     
  24. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    Spoken like a true archer.
     
  25. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    The OP sounds like a terrible idea. My necro/mage would be forever friendless (read: wither). My weaver, too (read: essence of wind).

    Booo.
     
  26. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    You know... I agree with you on this one. For once.... In Fel... Area attacks SHOULD Attack EVERYONE... In Tram... if I'm in a guild especially a warring guild.... then these same attacks should attack everyone that is green or orange.

    Although the trouble with this is thinking is that..... it might drive communities further apart... as no one would want to be in a guild with anyone else if they are subject to friendly fire and getting whacked by someone else's EV all the time.
     
  27. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    So...what about archers having a chance of friendly fire? Dexers missing a target and hitting a friendly? Unless you involved all templates under this rule all you are doing is further adding imbalance to an already imbalanced game.

    In short...this idea is ********, shortsided, and is most definitely biased.
     
  28. mbraud4

    mbraud4 Sage
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    Im glad trammys who never pvp dont make the felluca rules...jeez OP ur a fricktard.
     
  29. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    The current situation heavily favours just about every template except the melee dexxer, and that includes archers. Maybe you should think before you type...

    Oh my dear child. Intelligent friendly fire rules are hard core, far more hard core than the present situation in Ultima Online, and diametrically opposed to the gaming philosophy that created Trammel. When you actually have to think before you perform an action, that is not only good for your mind, it is good for the game, and ultimately, in my opinion, far more fun.

    I host game servers on weekends and almost all of the games I host have active friendly fire. Not only are the games more challenging as a result, but they are more balanced, and more fun. Not to mention the fact that invariably the best laughs we've ever had on the servers I operate have been the result of friendly fire "incidents".

    Obviously without aimed attacks, friendly fire rules for melee and archery would be more challenging, but in my opinion, not impossible to implement. I'd love to see them as well, but that isn't what we are discussing here.

    And as for the person that stated that I am suggesting that aoe spells like wither should affect the caster, that is clearly a blatant attempt to neutralize the legitimate discussion that is taking place in this thread. In other words, don't be ridiculous...
     
  30. mbraud4

    mbraud4 Sage
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  31. Restroom Cowboy

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    How do you figure? There are more dexxers with EP and Alchemy than mages...making your arguement moot.

    Well...I would not be against some type of AoE neutrality if the game were more balanced. However that is not the case right now...so adding or changing rules that affect primarily casters atm would only add to the current issues.

    Again, I am not against something that can affect everyone, but in this game arrows dont fly off and hit other targets...melee weps dont bounce off armor and poke out a friendly players eye. Unless you make the rules work in favor of all...then what good is the implimentation?

    That isnt being discussed here? It should be...what is good for one should be good for all.

    Neutralize no...bring clarity to a flawed arguement yes. You want to do something to further limit the effectiveness of a mage on the field...in a time where their effectiveness is being questioned. In other words, dont be ridiculous.
     
  32. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I think this was the victim of a typo. I'll wait to respond until I understand what you are saying in this.

    I'm not quite sure why you assume this change would target mages. What this business of throwing down a pot that kills in seconds, and standing in the middle of the flames does, is benefit anyone whose primary method of dealing damage is ranged. So this would include mages, archers, and gargoyles with throwing. Any of those can use this tactic and I have come up against one mage that used this tactic, and one archer. I have yet to see a dexxer that used this tactic.

    I understand what you are saying, but you again are making the false assumption that this change would only affect mages, and if mages are suffering from balance issues, other changes can be made to restore balance if they are required.
     
  33. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    fixed! :)

    well...perhaps your wording has a bit to do with the matter. How many AoE attacks does a dexer have? a mage? If you meant the conflags only...perhaps you should express this. Otherwise you are rounding up a rule that effects spellcasters...and dexxers that only use conflags.

    What kind of ratio of templates do you feel are going to be effected by these changes? I make no false assumptions here...I only state with clarity that the math favors the dexxer. That is until all weps and tossables have a chance of misfire.
     
  34. mbraud4

    mbraud4 Sage
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    Just curious as to where LLewen pvps at, which shard and guild...
     
  35. I am a total trammelite but I like the way potions work now because I have an alchemist character who has no other abilities used to be a bard but is now my imbuer/tinker/carpenter and he can kill some things with alchemy alone. It's kind of fun for me. Ok so I am probably a minority but that's my take on it.
     
  36. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    And I'm curious as to why you think that is relevant? Or perhaps you are hoping to engage in some more personal attacks that you can erase before you get an infraction? ;)
     
  37. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Ya, I see the point you are making. But regardless of what character uses the tactic, it's effect is to prevent anyone from closing and making a kill with a melee weapon. Anyway, I've said just as much about this as I have to say. I appreciate the discussion and reading the opinions on all sides, with a few exceptions... :)
     
  38. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    Llewen do you pvp on any character besides that blue gate hugging tamer on Catskills?
     
  39. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    eww...

    :lol:
     
  40. So is the extraordinary high damage from running through a conflagaration field intended or an exploit? If intended, is it balanced? Sounds like it could be an unbalancing pvp tactic. ( "you can't touch me, while I can still fire arrows / cast spells at you! haha!" )
     
  41. Actually, from experience, conflagaration pots are used to reveal stealthers... as if passive reveal isn't unbalancing enough.
     
  42. CatLord

    CatLord Guest

    Small detail to add...

    Blue Faction players are currently hit by blue non faction players area effects... and their summoned EVs.

    Regarding potions...
    The ABC Alchy template...


    Basicly the template is:

    120 archery
    120 tactics
    120 bushido
    gm anatomy
    gm alchemy
    90 healing
    70 chiv
    (Jack of all trades)
    20 med
    20 focus
    20 spellweaving

    I have found that with this template it has a maxium damage output, g-plode pots do 45 hp of dam with 50ep on the ring and with the natural 30 you get from alchemy. so if you have the timing right you can throw 5 of them doing a total of 225 hp of damage. what i have found however is that if you have a bow for the special paralize shot. the bow i use is balanced, hld 50, ssi 40, di 40. with the hit lower defence you can keep the red *Grins* para'ed and then throw your potions you have one dead red that can't keep up with the damage output.

    I also use several other bows.

    x bow with hit fireball 30, balanced, ssi 30, hci 24 di 30
    Comp bow with hld 29, hci 19, ssi 35, balanced, di 35
    Yumi with velocity 41, hit lightning 46, balanced, hci 5, ssi 30 di 12
    Heavy X with hla 30, hit lightning 44, balanced, ssi 35, di 35
    Magical shortbow with velocity 48, hit harm 40, balanced, ssi 30, di 40

    i have 114 strength locked off but with a greater strength pot it is boosted to 150
    i have dex at 114 with greater agility this is boosted to 150
    and i have the rest in intel so far i have 61 intel but i have 68 mana with mana increase bonus

    the Suit I use.

    Spirit of the totem
    Verite plate mempo - 7 mana increase, hitpoint regen 2, mana regen 2, resists 28, 28, 8, 6, 4, mage armour
    Verite plate do - Hitpoint increase 5, mana regen 2, LRC 18, Resists 28, 5, 6, 23, 6, mage armour
    Verite plate haidate - 7 LMC, 16 LRC, Resists 8, 10, 15, 20, 21, Mage armour
    Verite plate Hiro sode - Mana regen 2, reflect phys dam 10, 8 LMC, Resists 10, 4, 21, 9, 23, mage armour
    Gloves of the Sun (These are subject to change)
    Orny of the magi
    Ring - 50 ep, DCI 5, LMC 5, LRC 6, Fire resist 15
    Sash - Lt of brit guard replica
    Boots - Mythical detective boots replica (+4 intel)
    Crimmy
    Tally of the Void - Gives 51% Orc Lord protection *Thumps up*
    Cunjurer's garb (One with no luck)
    Earrings of invisability ( <<< Very important piece of kit this)

    but you can play around with suits and stats to how you want, but i have found with spawn bosses you will be able to do a tonne of damage eg against mel with enemy of one, con weapon lightning strike with my Yumi i do about 156 damage, then add potions to it and Lady Mel goes down very quickly on your own, same with Barracoon.

    If you want more defence you can put gm ninja on, with mirror images it helps and also at 90 and above ninja you can deadly poison using darts and stars at Deadly poison level.

    With bush I have a bonded lesser Hiryu its fully tranined it can hurt a pvper and dismount them add that to your pots and bow and thats one dead red very quickly.

    also with this template if there are two of them at both bridges in despise along with two mages that is casting fields that will be all you need to defend the bridge.



    Enjoy...
     
  43. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Wait so passive reveal is unbalancing eh... no wonder why "some" people think mages are overpowered. :lol:
     
  44. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    As a matter of fact I do. And as for "gate hugging", I fail to see why that is any worse than the "house hugging" that 99% of the others who pvp in and around Yew gate do, and that probably includes Flutter's characters - something which I rarely, if ever, do, not because I'm inherently noble, or better than anyone else, but because I can't stand house fighting. And as far as my "gate hugging" goes, I generally only use the gate tactically when I am outnumbered, which I admit is fairly often.

    But it is nice to see that you could be counted on to make this thread personal, and feed the trolls while you were at it. Congratulations. And as I already said, that has no relevance whatsoever to the topic being discussed here, other than to make the trolls feel like they can score some personal attack points without actually discussing the topic...

    edit: See Flutter has always confused me. It has always seemed to me she was big into taming, and I was confused by the fact that she is one of the biggest tamer haters on Stratics. Now that I know who some of her characters are, I've come to realize she really is just another tamer hater who happens to have a tamer character like so many do.

    So what really annoys her about me specifically is that I play a real tamer in pvp. Pets are my main way of dealing damage. I'm not a dexxer, or an archer, or a mage with taming who only uses a pet such as a cu sidhe or dread as a durable mount and supplemental damage. My character has strong magery skills, but my pets are my main damage dealers, and the magery is generally used to support the pets, and for supplemental damage.

    And that annoys her. It's pretty clear she just doesn't like tamers, especially tamers who dare to be different. But like I said, now that I understand who some of her characters are, it's going to make killing them all that much more fun. ;) And just to repeat myself, none of this has anything to do with the topic at hand, it is simply a response to a number of personal attacks made in this thread.

    And just to be clear again, the character that I was playing that really was the reason why I started this thread was a factions dexxer. And it wasn't dying so much that made me start thinking about posting on Stratics, it was the chat after dying with the person who killed me, and the greater conflagration pot demonstration that he gave. I didn't die that time but I did lose well over two thirds of my hit points in two ticks, and that character has 70 fire resist.
     
  45. Cear Dallben Dragon

    Cear Dallben Dragon Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    either you have 24 HP, or grossly exaggerate.
    Greater conflag, 70 fire resist, 8 dmg a tick TOPS.
     
  46. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    Just saying you are making big game play change demands for someone whos primary character sits in guard zone with a beetle and a mare. It really rarely if ever effects you, you obviously have little to know knowledge about it, and still you get on your soap box and demand changes. People don't take fondly to that sort of thing.
     
  47. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

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    Sorry, but you are wrong. One thing though, it might not just be 50 EP and GM alchemy, maybe there is some other factor in there that I am not aware of, but I assure you, three ticks and any character would be dead with no other factors involved.

    edit: My turn to delete snarls and retract the claws...
     
  48. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    If I spend 100 skill points and distribute 50 EP on my jewels...don't you think I should be entitled to get full benefit out of the skill being used? There is no imbalance or exploit here. If you decide to run inside a conflag field tossed by an alchemist...you deserve to die for being stupid...its that simple.
     
  49. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    I have NO IDEA why you think I don't like you. I guess you have forgotten we used to be friends a few years ago. That's fine because it's quite irrelevant.
    My post was pretty on topic and on point. You are the one whos taking it off topic.
     
  50. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    You have to realize you are talking to people who mostly pvm and only sometimes pvp. They don't spend their day making templates that are specifically engineered to kill other templates. They don't think about it much at all because for the most part they are PvMers. So, when they run into you, or someone like you, who have spent sufficient time and gold onto a player killer template it looks to them to be severely overpowered and unfair.
    These people aren't stupid, they are just uneducated. They haven't devoted the time or thought into how many different ways there are to kill another player so when they step into an alchy's conflag (with EP bonuses especially) or they are hit by a few explosion pots they are surprised by the damage and immediately think OMG THIS PERSON IS CHEATING because .... well frankly it seems that way to them.