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Final Skillgain

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Duskofdead, Feb 3, 2009.

  1. Duskofdead

    Duskofdead Sage
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    I'm just curious.

    Can someone explain the design reasoning behind, why the last couple points of a skill, take longer than oh I dunno.... going from 0 to 85.

    Am I really proving something by making 1800 or so potions to move from 99.1 to 100.0?

    It's not meant as a whine, I just don't see how it makes the game better or even for skills to be more meaningful by making a huge diminishing return at the very top end of a skill. It's not like I'm going to be deterred and stop at 99.1 and not GM it off. I've come that far.

    I'd honestly prefer sometimes to just have very consistent skillgain rates (for attempting equally difficult items) throughout the whole range of a skill.... rather than it being super easy 1-85 and then dropping off a cliff after that in progressive tiers. 85.0 and definitely 95.0 up become pure, undeniable grinds and aside from RPers I have serious doubts anyone just "naturally" levels up skills that are in those ranges. It would take weeks if not months to move significantly. (Well barring direct combat skills.)

    I am against UM (unattended macroing.) But I also fail to see the sense in banning a behavior that so much of the game design makes attractive as an alternative to brainless button mashing or repetitive skill use. :(

    Explain? Disagree?
     
  2. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    The only explaination I can think of is simply because they figure once you reach a higher level that you're hooked and short of cutting off your own body parts, you'll do whatever it takes to finish the skill (including paying months of sub fees)

    But I agree with you and think it "might" remove some of the UM problems if skills gain was consistent and alot easier through the entire 0-120 process.
     
  3. jelinidas

    jelinidas Guest

    how else would player vendors keep the SOT prices high? :D
     
  4. Duskofdead

    Duskofdead Sage
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    I agree.

    I mean if there is some argument back in the original design of... being a Grandmaster will be meaningful because most people will give up when it gets really hard at 75 or 85 or something... it just seems like in hindsight that was a naive point of view. Developers seem to underestimate how much players will get addicted and throw themselves at grinding a skill up, no matter how long it takes, as long as there's a benefit to be gained. And of course the shortcut to that is always cheats/buying online/whatever. Even a black market for SPEED LEVELLING in MMO's now which is just ridiculous but at the same time I have to blame the game designs too... if it weren't so incredibly unfun and tedious to raise skills/levels, if gains weren't so finnicky, and if there were any point to NOT rushing a skill to its maximum, there wouldn't be a demand for those kinds of services.

    But does someone really want a runebook with 14 charges when they can buy another one, exceptional with 20 charges, made with the same resources, sold for similar prices... only difference being the maker's skill level? There's really no point to not maxing a skill as soon as humanly (or macro'ly) possible. It hurts your development to "wait and do it naturally as you go." Enter: macroing.

    I don't UM. But for a lot of things it just looks really attractive... trying to finish my alchemy, for instance, or my lumberjacking... I just wish these skills would give me consistent gains, spending 45 minutes steadily at a skill and not getting 0.1 really takes away my drive to do it myself.
     
  5. kaio

    kaio Sage
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    Know what a long-term MMOPG is ? its a game where you spend 10½ year training youre toon, just to discover that everyone complains about everything, so you decide to delete your'e toon, and get a life.

    The problem with uo, is that there is only end-game left.
     
  6. Duskofdead

    Duskofdead Sage
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    I've never spent more than 2-3 years in an MMO at a time. :) Actually I've done that twice, once with UO from 97 to 01, once with WOW from very late 05 to 08.

    I see what you're saying. But I mean, c'mon. You're like the guy saying "airports are ALWAYS a hassle. So why are you complaining about LAX having an average 13 hour delay per flight?"

    There's degrees of ridiculousness. ;)
     
  7. kaio

    kaio Sage
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    Try and read it again :)
    But i give u a hint.
    If u can't beat 'em .......
     
  8. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
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    Queue the posts of "YOU ARE SAYING THAT MANY SYSTEMS IN THIS GAME ARE RIDICULOUSLY TEDIOUS AND YOU DON'T WANT TO BE A MASOCHIST AND GO UPHILL BOTH WAYS SO YOU CAN FEEL SUPERIOR TO PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET?!?! YOU MUST BE A HACKER SCRIPTER SATAAAAAAANNNNN!!!!1!!111111!!!1!eleven" in 5, 4, 3...
     
  9. Duskofdead

    Duskofdead Sage
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    Er? Are you advocating UM?
     
  10. Duskofdead

    Duskofdead Sage
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    :O

    I just think the skillgain rate dropping to like 1/100th of normal over 90 or so is a bit excessive and encourages unattended scripting.
     
  11. kaio

    kaio Sage
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    How rude you are, suggesting silly things like that, shame on you.
     
  12. Duskofdead

    Duskofdead Sage
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    Point Clarity 101. :) I don't like having to suss out some hidden meaning in what you say.

    At any rate, I'm now 100 in the skill that was giving me so much trouble.... now moving to carpentry where I'm like 97.2. Fun.

    *Still doesn't UM*
     
  13. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Can anyone point out a MMO that does not do this type of training? I can't think of any. It might even be one of the designs that is universal in every MMO.
     
  14. Duskofdead

    Duskofdead Sage
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    Sure. In WOW skill gain purely revolves around the difficulty/skill level of the item being attempted. I.e. a 250 skill tailor will never, ever get a point off making I dunno.... a plain leather shirt. But he doesn't score point gains less frequently off stuff that requires skill level 235 just because he's at 250 instead of 25 skill. The actual rate of gain, assuming you have equal access to resources as you go, remains constant.

    Although I will grant that, in World of Warcraft's case, the "workaround" is that as you go up in a skill, the materials needed to craft items that will give you gains become scarcer or more expensive. i.e. you can only gain off say runecloth (which only comes from harder mobs, is less frequently farmed than silk, less available, and more expensive when purchased from other players) and not mageweave or silk or linen or wool anymore. But still, it's very possible assuming you've stockpiled some mats in advance and/or are in the position to buy your mats, sit there and level up your professional skill at a steady gain rate from 0 to max.

    Why making the point from 90 to 91.0 25x longer than from 0.0 to 10.0 is beyond me in terms of contribution to gameplay. I'd rather skill gain be utterly consistent, even if each individual point 0-85 skill takes a lot longer than it does right now... as long as gains were consistent and not just a sheer mindless grindfest. All that does is contribute to macroing/scripting.
     
  15. rwek

    rwek Guest

    Asheron's Call.


    I liked the point system. Now, its been years.


    But I recall you can hunt and spend your points into any crafting/or fighting skills you choose.

    So, no more hours on end of sitting in a house. You go out and kill some stuff and spend your points as you wish.



    (if the crafting system in AC did not work that way , then its been too long and I forget)



    Of course that game was also plagued with unattended scripting. In fact its the first game where I used some really powerful fighting scripts.
     
  16. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    That is exactly how crafting skills in UO work. You can't gain off of making a plain shirt very well if you are 99.9 tailoring. I don't know anythig about WOW crafting, but from your description it is the same.

    Also all level based MMOs such as World of Warcraft have a progessive curve that raises the amount of experience required to reach the next level. So level 2 takes 5 minutes while level 80 takes however many hours.
     
  17. Duskofdead

    Duskofdead Sage
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    You're being obtuse, or, you haven't crafted in awhile.

    If you're making something within 10-20 points of your skill level in WOW.... you will get gains just as frequently as if you were at 0 skill.

    In UO, you could be attempting an item that has a 60% fail rate at skill level 97, you're still going to sit there doing it for 10, 20, 30 minutes to get a 0.1 or two.

    And we wonder why there is UM?
     
  18. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    I just did a bit of research on World of Warcraft tailoring gaining. It says it costs up to and over 1,750 gold if you need to buy the materials. I went and price checked some WOW gold and that came out to $40. If UO gold is under $1 per million, that is about 40 million UO gold to gain 1 skill to maximum.

    World of Warcraft uses a different system where rare materials are required, which is why it is so expensive or time consuming to gather. But the gains are faster because the work goes into resource gathering.

    So you can't point to WOW's crafting system and say it is easier when the actual work goes into gathering items, which in UO is trivial.

    Unattended macroing still goes on in World of Warcraft despite whatever system they have setup for crafting.
     
  19. Duskofdead

    Duskofdead Sage
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    I already admitted that materials become more difficult as you raise in skill. However, it is not inconceivable whatsoever to have the required materials set aside BEFORE HAND, and you can gather them in NORMAL COMBAT (i.e. imagine 3 bolts of cloth being on typical humanoid NPC corpses) before attempting to max out a skill.

    Besides, short of spending money (in game or out), you have to spend time farming materials in UO as well. I'm not sure what kind of imaginary difference you're drawing as if in UO you don't need thousands of resources for many of the crafting skills, which, unless you go and blow a very large amount of in-game currency, you have to spend a great deal of time harvesting or earning money for.

    2) Maxing a skill is far far far far far less tedious in WOW than it is for UO, in large part because of the enormous curve depression skillgains go through as you approach 100. In WOW you may spend half an hour farming a specific cloth, and turning right around and getting 12 points out of it right in a row. In UO you may already have the raw material laying around (or, spend an equal amount of time gathering it.... be it through working up reagent spawns, shearing sheep, or chopping wood, or mining for specific ores.. in fact you might well spend more time at gathering in UO for basic skill-up materials unless you are simply buying it all!) and then spend another 20, 30, 40 minutes for... 0.3. Or 0.2. Or 0.4.

    Saying the comparison is "useless" because some materials are harder to get in WOW is a ridiculous attempt to dismiss my answer to your post when you don't know anything about the system other than what you've read in the span of 3 minutes. The misleading thing about placing emphasis on the rareness or time intensiveness of mats in WOW is that rare mats are not typically needed for basic skill ups. That's like saying you could 'Only' get skillgains in UO by making academic bookcases. There are at virtually any skill level of any prof, items that just require relatively "generic" materials to create, which will raise your skill just as effectively, but perhaps are not as nice of a finished item as other alternatives at the same skill level which DO require rarer materials.

    Example (just making it up in UO terms)

    Plain Shirt
    Required Tailoring 15
    Ingredients 10 yards of cloth

    Mystic Shirt
    Required Tailoring 15
    Ingredients 10 yards of cloth, 20 black pearl, four human ears
    Adds Night Sight


    You'll still get skill just as fast by making the plain shirts. It's just that you'll end up having to dump it as vendor trash cause you won't want to wear it and neither will anyone else. There are superior alternatives at the same requirement level, but you can still make the item and still gain skill points off it just as fast as if you were crafting better objects.

    Please do not make some ignorant, uninformed universal statement about how "all mmos out there do the same thing" if you have to run and do a quickstudy on other mmo's to learn about their crafting professions, and then come back and claim people who've actually played them are wrong about them, okay? It makes you look pretty foolish.

    Saying that UM happens in WOW is totally off the topic. People do not macro in WOW because skillgains take days/weeks and slow down to the point of intolerably slow. They macro for entirely different reasons such as farming rares or money. Moral of the story? Anything you make take huge lengths of tedious unfun gameplay to do, people are probably going to be inclined to find some illicit way to skip sinking dozens of hours of unfun in an online game. In UO's case, my question stands, and you haven't answered it other than making uninformed claims about other mmo's, which aren't under discussion. That question being, what is the benefit, or rationale, or reasoning, or Good Thing, about making skill gain drop off a cliff over 85 or 90, other than making finishing off a skill really not fun, really resource intensive, and people very inclined to unattended macro it to GM?

    It doesn't make GM status exclusive or "more of an accomplishment", because all the lazy people will actually have it FASTER by buying materials and unattended macroing a skill up to max. It just penalizes everyone else who grinds through dozens of hours of trying to farm petered out skillgains burning thousands of resources and not feeling like they are accomplishing much, just grinding something out meaninglessly.

    P.S., care for a Gnarled staff? I made about 348 of them for my last 0.2 skill points.
     
  20. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
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    I think the issue here is that GMing a crafting skill in UO is much like going from level 1 to level 1000 in a level-based game. The distance between level 999 and level 1000 is much, much longer than the distance between level 1 and level 2, and frequently takes much harder actions to progress. Unfortunately, in UO, you don't get to see the distances, and sometimes they are even seemingly completely random.
     
  21. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    I didn't say the comparison was useless, I said it was flawed. World of Warcraft's model is that resources take more time to gather and skill gain is relatively easy once you have those. UO's model is it takes a lot of skill use in order to advance while resource gathering is easy.

    UO could move in the same direction. Mining already has better gains for smelting rarer ore. It is just Tailoring and Smithing were never changed to be like that. So if you want to gain smithing really fast you could collect 40 million gold worth of valorite ore.
     
  22. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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  23. WildWobble

    WildWobble Sage
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    For the majority of players Problem Solved!! Sot's are here
    if your determined to do the old way more power to ya hope you like wasteing your play time getting carpeltunnel.
     
  24. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Truth be told, UM'g aside, I like the current system. It should get harder to raise your skills when you are close to GM. Think about it this way, when you were an apprentice, everytime you made a chair even if it was pretty shoddy, you learn something. Your wood planing or chiselling will be horribly crooked, and you have to use a mallet to force whack the dovetail joint to fit into the socket, but hey, you made a usable chair.

    When you are close to becoming perfect, it gets so much harder to reach perfection.

    Making that perfect 90 degree chiselling, smooth plane the wood until it is perfectly flat and flushed, making a dovetail joint that slides in perfectly while still retaining a grip, a grip so perfect that you don't need to use a single nail in your chair at all. That's grandmaster perfection.

    At master levels, your work is maybe a minute degree off, close but not totally perfect yet. It takes alot of practice to get that fraction of a degree perfectly right. More practice than learning to make that first shody chair when you were an apprentice. :) Makes sense?

    I GM'd off gnarled staves prior to SE. With SE and ML, there should be better weapons to let you gain. And instead of leaving them in bags all around, I would use UOA's sell agent to sell the staves to NPCs when I am full. At 97.2, you probably already know all the little tricks, but just in case.
     
  25. Fogsbane

    Fogsbane Seasoned Veteran
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    Disagree, with original post.
    (although the explain/disagree invitation is welcoming)

    It seems to me to provide an easier endgame, to level all skillgain.
    I have mixed feeling about what others have described here and elsewhere.

    I want the endgame, and all skillgain in general, to be never ending for myself -

    diverse
    balancing
    a constant pursuit
     
  26. Diomedes Artega

    Diomedes Artega Certifiable
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    The reasoning behind as far as what the OP wants to know, is this nice quote up above.

    Ultima online does not have a leveling grind like Lineage II, Everquest II, Final Fantasy XI, etc.

    In ALL reality, we can be so thankful. I have known too many people playing these other games who do not get to reach the highest level. Why is this you ask? Because they have a quest that they have to complete or some variation of. Even in terms of FFXI, once you reach level 70, you have what is called the Maat fight. Red mage is bar-none the most difficult fight. I have known people who quit the game just because they went 0/11 fighting Maat.

    Do we have to deal with that in this game? Plain and simple answer: NO.

    We have the guaranteed gain system. > http://uo.stratics.com/content/basics/ggs.shtml

    Even at the highest levels, oh golly gee darn it. In 51 hours I will go from 119.9 to 120.0 at the maximum amount of skill points.

    I sympathize over not being able to gain in a skill. But, it's nothing like other games where there is no way for some people to reach the highest stage. Sure they could pick another job, but it would be like telling you to level a skill you don't like. There are plenty of them in UO. Pick one you don't like and level it. Same concept.

    Unfortunately for them though, they're stuck.