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Fishing... just curious...

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Merus, Mar 3, 2014.

  1. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    What purpose does it serve to spawn fish in locations that no player can reach by any means? When my fish finder (which takes a couple hours of time to get the points for) only lasts for 3 real time hours and the only place it can find the fish is someplace that is impossible to get it begs the question, wtf are the fish doing spawning out there in the first place?
     
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  2. Kojak

    Kojak Lore Master
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    go to the fel side and you can reach the location
     
  3. Voodoo Bad Mojo

    Voodoo Bad Mojo Lore Master
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    why would you come into a public form and ask a ambiguous question?
    why not say where they are spawning so we can all enjoy the conversation?
     
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  4. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    It happens all over. In the middle of grave water lake. In unreachable parts of the rivers in dungeons. In unreachable areas of Ilsh. The question is not ambiguous... Why do we need to have rare (or any) fish spawning in inaccessible areas regardless of where they are.
     
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  5. Winter

    Winter Lore Keeper

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    Gosh, you know that happens in real life too! I mean, they should just jump on your hook and you really shouldn't have to struggle for those rare fish, right?
     
  6. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    There is a big difference in working up to the required fishing skill, getting the proper bait, working to find the right spot and asking that the fish just jump on the hook. I'm not asking that it be made easier, just possible. When the fish spawn where no one has any chance it defeats the purpose.
     
  7. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    In real life we don't have dragons, or spells, or treasure chests, you know. He isn't asking for an easy mode in the game, just that if he's spent the time to get that Void reward, it won't go to waste because the fish will be inaccessible. His is an extremely reasonable request.

    I've never tried the tool, and now I have zero incentive to risk wasting my time on one.
     
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  8. Winter

    Winter Lore Keeper

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    Perhaps the real problem then is that spawn all over UO end up in inaccessible spots. It's not just the fishing spots, but that happens over all the lands and dungeons.
     
  9. Ludes

    Ludes Babbling Loonie
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    Hmm.. not sure I should keep trying to get the finder either now..
     
  10. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    I am not aware of any permanent spawns of mobs that spawn in unreachable locations other than fish in water tiles that can not be accessed. I know sometimes in testing people identify them, or it happens during a temporary story arc. If those places still exist, they should be fixed.
     
  11. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    lol I know this is a thread about fishing, but what's with all the trolling? get it, trolling...

    short answer to OP's question is poor programming :/...not a lot of quality (assurance) in the available rewards, and a failed system. when it works, though, the fish pies are at least somewhat fun...still, I don't know. the best thing about catching big fish, to me, is still the player events in which you make your own goals.
     
    #11 G.v.P, Mar 4, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014
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  12. Adol

    Adol Certifiable
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    Well, the simple answer I suppose is that certain rare fish only spawn in certain areas; and if you're using the Fish Finder on those spots to try and locate them, and you can't access all the area classed as it, you're basically boning yourself. You know you can't sail into Gravewater Lake for the Holy Mackerel, and as the finder will generate it anywhere in the lake, don't use it there. But that area is largely safe anyway, so you would be better off going for the bait and using the suit and just grinding it out around the coast.

    Because the Rare fish aren't at a specific tile, unless you use the fish finder, which just guarantees them. Any tile in Gravewater lake has identical odds to spawn a Holy Mackerel. My guess is it's roughly 1 in 100 for Rare. The pie ones are easy.

    Nothing changes the odds of the Legendary bar the suit and bait however. And my guess is they are around 1 in 1000. And some of them are in deadly places you can't even place a boat. You've got a lot of extreme fishing left to get them all I'm afraid...
     
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  13. Winter

    Winter Lore Keeper

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    Yes, inaccessible places still exist all over UO, and of course they should be fixed. There are places that cu sidhe spawn that you can't tame - sure you can kill them in those locations, but I've had rare colors spawn there and didn't want to kill them.

    At one time if a MOB wasn't killed off in 2 hours, it would re-spawn in another location. There were other problems with this system, so eventually it was removed.
     
  14. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    It has always been my impression that what and where fish spawn is independent of the fisherman. When the fisherman comes along to fish a certain tile, the possible fish that can be caught there already exists and it is a matter of checks/rolls to see which ones are caught. I do not believe that the fish that is caught is actually generated in the water tile at the time of the cast. This the fish finder is not spawning fish, it is locating which tiles they exist in. The ability to catch them is still the exact same as it is without the fish finder. My issue is not with how hard the fish are to catch. My issue is fish spawning in places that can't be fished.

    If the Devs created a dungeon and then blocked off 90% of it and put the mobs that have the drops where no one can go I think there would be some complaints. IMO that is exact what is happening at some places like Gravewater lake. Rare fish are the "drops" for a fisherman. All the fish finder is doing is showing that those drops are being placed outside the reach of everyone. Either give fisherman a way to access the lake and other areas or quit spawning fish there.
     
  15. Ox AO

    Ox AO Grand Poobah
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    A bit off topic. I want to make some stone crab pies for soaking physical damage. When I cut a +100 crab i get 1 stone crab meat.
    All other types of big fish give x number of fish steaks. why does crabs only give one? rhetorical question
     
  16. Adol

    Adol Certifiable
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    You're wrong on that, I'm sorry, because you've confused two different elements of the system. I'm going to have to go into a bit of detail about how I know, so bear with me.

    "possible fish that can be caught there already exists", is correct. The areas the fish can be caught are listed within the Order of the Dragonfish books.

    As an illustration, there was a huge debate over where the Void Lobster was, because for months after High Seas no one had actually got book 6 to prove where it was, and we didn't know if we were fishing the right spot and it was hugely rare, or we were in the wrong spot;

    http://stratics.com/community/threads/hunting-the-void-lobster.241722/

    One of the Devs explained it should be very, very rare even at 120 fishing. So there's a skill based component too it. That is your individual fisherman element, the skill you have tweaks the odds;

    http://stratics.com/community/threads/bugged-lava-lobster-traps.239050/

    But notice you are also expected to still need to be very, very lucky. Which confirms that it's odds based too. Not specific tile based, except within the area defined by the Order books/lore set up. If it was, you couldn't have skill and area taken into account too.

    It was then proven it still wasn't spawning even so, as hundreds of fishers were now putting Lava Lobster traps into the Stygian Abyss lava rivers and getting nothing; The fix went in on Publish 80 later that year;

    http://www.uoguide.com/Publish_80

    Where was the bug? Not in the fish list. Void Lobsters were in the spawn list for the Stygian Abyss lava tiles, the Devs thought we'd just been unlucky so far. It was in the Lava Tiles they were supposed to be coming from. All and any of them... the reward is generated by the tile type within the catchment area, and the tile type wasn't working;

    http://stratics.com/community/threads/void-lobster.285467/

    Within an hour of the patch hitting Europa for testing, and thanks to a donation from the Lady Foxglove, I had a Void Lobster (possibly the world's first too, as no one else was there looking). So, what does this tell us for fish again?

    That yes, there's a master list of possible fishing reward for any tile within the catchment area; those results are set by odds, tweaked by bait and suit and skill, and generated on the fly by the tile for the fisher if they are individually able to catch there. There's not "10 fish" there at any time, there's a 1 in 10 chance you'll get one if you sit there and use that tile.

    What you get wrong is saying "This the fish finder is not spawning fish, it is locating which tiles they exist in. The ability to catch them is still the exact same as it is without the fish finder". That second part isn't true. The fish finder is changing the odds to nearer 100% for only you, and generating a random spawn point from the available area where you should be.

    It's doing the same as the Mining maps in fact; there is a roughly 8x8 node where ore can spawn. When you mine that, you roll against your skill and the drop table for which comes out as Iron and which as Ore X. Below 65 skill, even if another ore is there on the drop list, you won't get it;

    http://www.uoguide.com/Mining

    It will always be Iron instead. What you get on each swing of the axe above that is either Iron or Other Ore. What the Mining Map does is choose a random node, and set Other Ore to 100%. Is it telling you where the Ore already was? Even if it did, someone could mine it before you used the map and take all your ore, flip the Ore type to a different type by mining it all out, and your map would then be totally worthless. So it has to be fixing the odds and type for the duration of the map time.

    The actual problem you have then is that you're misunderstanding how the fish finder works; Which is possibly bad design by the Dev Team I do acknowledge. But the locations for Fishing is geographically limited by the wider fishing set up, and that's done on a tile type basis. Holy Mackerel (and Zombie Fish) can only be caught in Gravewater Lake. However the whole lake is flagged for that. It's not that the Fish are currently living in one node in the middle of the lake... they aren't, they're at any square on the lake, as you earlier understood. So the Fish Finder is randomly rolling on any square where they could be too, then fixing better odds just for you at that spot. That's where it goes wrong from your experience. What you seem to want is that it can only be generated on the coast where you can reach it.

    In order to do that, they have to complicate the fishing system even further. They either need to delete nodes that can't be reached, such as in the middle of lakes, but then Holy Mackerel can't be caught anywhere in Gravewater Lake... or they need two separate node-lists, one for reachable by boat or in theory, and one reachable by land...

    And whether it's actually possible to turn particular tiles off I don't know; I have my suspicions it might not be, without a major code overhaul. Have a look at a map of Malas...

    http://uo2.stratics.com/maps-and-locations/malas

    There's only 1 piece of water on the entire map. My suspicion is the check is even simpler than for mining; "Water In Malas? Yes/No. If Yes, odds on fish are Normal Fish xx, Holy Mackerel yy, Zombie Fish zz".

    Indeed have a close look in fact at all of the Rare/Legendary fish, and they're all in every tile across specific subservers (as can be seen with the Pinco UI in the EC)

    http://www.uoguide.com/Fish

    Twisted Weald, Terathan Keep, the Dungeons, they're all unique maps. Which means a programmer would have to go in and manually check every single tile to see if it can be reached by someone with a fishing rod, then making a new database with the co-ordinates of just those tiles, then pointing the random chooser at those...

    However, an alternative solution, once you understand what the Fish Finder is really doing, is to just have it proc the odds change where ever you're stood once the map is triggered. That would mean dropping the roleplay excuse of "The fish are to the North!" as if you were actually chasing real fish that are living on the map at a specific spot right now... but secretly behind the scenes, they aren't really anyway. It's just telling you if the tile it's chosen for the bonus is above or below you. Instead, it could just go "Used on Map X, Rare Fish Here is X, change chance of X to 100% now."


    But... after all of that, hopefully you'll understand now why I said earlier that in the meantime you can just fish anywhere from Gravewater Lake say and use bait instead, and just grind them out. You're not buying a map which tells you where the exciting super-fish hidey hole is, and thus missing out on all the Holy Mackerel bonanza that's just out of reach... without the map, that's just a normal water square too, and where you're stood makes no difference at all.

    And save the Fish Finder for Deep Sea areas, don't use it on the Dungeon Mini Maps where the majority of the Water tiles are in hard to reach places. So Trammel, Felucca, Tokuno... places where it'll only spawn in Deep Sea tiles and thus is reachable by boat, but not the Lost Lands, or Shame, or Twisted Weald where the water has large swathes blocked off, is under huge piles of monsters, or just doesn't allow boats.

    And Legendary are unaffected by Fish Finders anyway, so their odds are always, always the same. Which actually makes Void Lobsters easier to catch than Legendary Fish... because you can multiply the bait bonus by leaving traps with it on in the water until they catch something or sink, where as the fishing rod check resets every time you re-cast. The worst fish to catch is actually the one in The Prism Of Light then;



    Notice I get 3 Rare Fish just messing about setting up to wait out the Legendary. Get your skill up. Get the bait. Don't worry about the Fish Finder, it's only of use for specific fish anyway due to how it finds the tiles. Going for Rare/Legendary crustaceans? Anywhere you put a trap is just as good as anywhere else. Don't sweat the Fish Finder.
     
    #16 Adol, Mar 6, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014
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