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Fix relic frags

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Speedy Orkit, Jan 4, 2010.

  1. Speedy Orkit

    Speedy Orkit Grand Inquisitor
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    Make it so crafted items cannot yield relic frags. Or increase the cost of relic frags for items, the market is so flooded it isn't funny.
     
  2. Sell them for less then. Greed isn't a viable reason for a change to game mechanics. It's good they don't cost much since they're a resource that can be lost during the imbuing process.
     
  3. Speedy Orkit

    Speedy Orkit Grand Inquisitor
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    It isn't a matter of greed. It's the abuse of game mechanics, just like the previous one they fixed. An elite weapon takes what, 15 frags? Max? Costing the player maybe a few mil? What good are the high end hammers now? Or a set of jewelry with EP, HCI, and 70 skill points can cost a person only a couple of mil, where does farming become viable? That is my problem with it.
     
  4. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Less farming/more playing... Sounds like a win to me.
     
  5. Speedy Orkit

    Speedy Orkit Grand Inquisitor
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    Sounds like you've flipped on your silver stance :lick:
     
  6. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Not at all. Hate the current faction system. I am groovin' on the current crafter system. *nods*
     
  7. longshanks

    longshanks Guest

    best price for relics on my shard (chessy) are about 130k per frag.

    what is the current process for crafting a frag? is it still using the fletching kit?
     
  8. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Speedy is selling them for 70k each on Siege. That seems to be in line with others I have seen.
     
  9. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Must disagree on you with this. Farming is playing. Whats the point of pvm if you can get everything and better than they drop without much effort. If the player doesn't pvp and everyone in the game is a crafter what else is there to do? Nobody wants to kill monsters if the reward is not worth the effort. Don't know many people who go out and kill mongbats for the hell of it as a whole day event as such don't know many people that go and kill paragon ancient wyrms other for a 1 or 2 time event just to see if they can do it.

    Even the poor nervy spider is a dead spawn now. Nobody at all bothers more than once and I mean nobody.
     
  10. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    I did not mean to imply farming is not a viable playstyle. Forgive me. It is the Siege in me. Many of the PvPers feel farming is a chore.
     
  11. Mook Chessy

    Mook Chessy Certifiable
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    I think the market is flooded because of the recent IDOCS more then the crafting! (on Siege)
     
  12. Speedy Orkit

    Speedy Orkit Grand Inquisitor
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    A legit argument...but one hammer and a few stones can craft 100 relic fragments. Do you see that as a "level" playing field? It is going to diminish farming even further.
     
  13. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Speedy? Are you saying crafters do not deserve relics? I am confused... as usual.
     
  14. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    These things are all relative.

    I don't find it easy to create relic fragments at all. I have far less than 100. I don't have access to endless runic hammers and mined gems either.
     
  15. Speedy Orkit

    Speedy Orkit Grand Inquisitor
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    I think they do, but it causes a bit of an imbalance...There is a way for a miner/smith to turn about 1m in items, into about 60-90 relic fragments. Quadrupling their profit. I feel as though if a smith was to burn a hammer that gave items that were breakable into relic fragments, so be it. I think runic hammers honestly deserve a LOT of love: IE letting smiths pick what mods come out from them, because let's be honest, no one is buying a hammer above bronze anymore unless you're on prodo.
     
  16. Mitzlplik_SP

    Mitzlplik_SP Guest

    I`ve always thought it was wrong to be able to create frags out of crafted junk. Just because one is a crafter....that is not the only char one has access too.
     
  17. Nastia Cross

    Nastia Cross Guest

    One hammer and a few stones = 100 relic fragments? That sounds like a severe exploit to me. At the moment its costing me the following for 100 relic frags:

    Ingots= 700k gp
    Gems= 2mil
    Hammers= 2mil
    for a total of: 4.7mil or 47k per relic (and this is if I get everything at the lowest price I can find).

    Oh and that doesn't include the ancient smith hammers that I have to use to guarantee 100% chance of crafting each item. Granted I've been doing bods and getting all my hammers for myself (and a fair number of headaches too from eyestrain lol) but this is the going rate for hammers on my shard.

    I can't imagine making it even harder (and thus more costly) for relics. If there are exploits, they should be fixed, not another dumb change or patch that hurts the rest of us. And no, I don't sell my relics.
     
  18. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Not everyone is a slave to running BODs or going to Heartwood, buys stuff from brokers, or has hundreds of millions in gold in the bank. I seriously doubt I'll ever manage to unravel anything to get relic fragments. I've sworn off buying from brokers and most of the gold I've been making the last few months has been on shards I've never played and 95% of it's going towards buying 120 power scrolls (about all you can find anymore) or saving it in hopes someday I'll see a damn stat scroll for sale. I would imagine most people who start or restart the game with nothing will find themselves in the same boat unless they cave into the ever-increasing pressure to buy gold or runic tools from brokers. Imbuing truly is a skill for rich players, especially if you hate pawing through monster loot for items that have mods you would normally imbue using relic fragments and have the space to store such items for some rainy day.

    I don't know what the answer is for making the situation more balanced or sensible. I just don't see imbuing as being a boon for new / gold-poor players. It seems as if eventually it's just going to create more of a gap between the rich vet players and everyone else. Very few people are selling useful but less-than-uber imbued items at reasonable prices on many of the small shards. When you're scrimping and saving 10-15 million gold just to get your character's skills over GM level sometime before 2012, it makes you grit your teeth and mutter loudly about the endless greed in the game when you must fork over 30k for a crummy piece of 18% LRC armor with lousy resists that you know cost the crafter almost nothing to create. I usually end up walking away and go back to farming monsters hoping my crummy low-luck low-resist suits and the RNG will SOMEDAY net a few pieces of useful monster loot or a once-in-six-months marty that isn't some useless piece of deco.
     
  19. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    Crafted junk, aye. But it's not junk.

    Unless I'm missing something, to make these you need a decent runic hammer, at least bronze, high level ingots, verite or valorite and mined gems. All those items are in themselves difficult to obtain and expensive. That hardly classes as 'junk'. If you could get relics using iron and dull copper/shadow runics I'd agree with the 'junk' description.
     
  20. What hammer is that? Something for those who have millions to spend or do bods 24/7? I haven't been able to craft relics myself, can't even seem to get the loot which gives them. So I buy relics only once in awhile, not willing to do any bods to try and get relics that way (care to shed some more light on that?).

    I'll go hunting for ingredients if I really want to imbue something but I'd rather not because it takes so many hours to get the stuff. Now I started out a few months ago with only some trained skills but no items or gold, after not playing for years. I can get the hang of things quickly enough but if I were to start as a complete newbie I would be put off quickly. Prices for imbued stuff would be too high and doing it yourself would take very long and cost a lot, not only for training but after reaching legendary too.

    Even though I can enjoy pvm I think if anything, relics should be easier/cheaper to get and ingredient drops increased, but vet rewards should be expanded to many different items with unique mods at unique intensities and vets should be able to choose more of them.

    The way imbueing is now is very logical (reaching the highest of a desirable mod is costly) but will not change that much for starting/casual players trying to compete with veteran players. If imbueing would be made easier/cheaper, newer players could compete and have fun while vets would be able to imbue but also have items making combinations available only to those who have invested a lot of time. Or maybe give a vet reward like an imbuer's tool and unlocks certain mod combination/intensities each year, that way not only vets would have the more interesting gear but could also sell unique items to younger players (which would be able to use the items but not be able to use the vet tool to imbue).

    This doesn't do much for the market ofcourse... the quick fix for that would be to make runic hammers easier obtainable by increasing the drop rate of bods for them or change the chance of runic tools, give them a chance of getting an extra mod or a mod slightly higher than possible in imbueing.
     
  21. Speedy Orkit

    Speedy Orkit Grand Inquisitor
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    Bronze runics are between 200-400k on our shard
    Emeralds 10k a pop
    gold Ingots 40-50gp

    Item in question requires: 18 ingots, 1 charge of hammer, and 1 emerald. So you will need:


    1 hammer(400k)
    35 Emeralds(350k)
    630 Gold ingots(31.5k)

    If fragments sell for at lowest, 60k per here, and you get say...70 of them. You're still turning a profit of almost 6x off one hammer. That doesn't seem a bit abundant to you?
     
  22. Speedy Orkit

    Speedy Orkit Grand Inquisitor
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    I just did this on TC without an ancient smith, or a talisman, so many were not yielding what they could have been, but here goes..

    35 ch from Bronze hammer
    671 gold ingots
    39 perfect emeralds


    34 relic frags. Even selling at minimal price, and will all the unexcp ones, you still more than double your money.
     
  23. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Oh yes, let's make them ever RARER!

    :coco:
     
  24. Ok, my smithy isn't 120 yet but with a +10 and good talisman I made a few gold and shadow weapons with a bronze which I then unraveled at the public forge, 120 imbueing gave me essence. Then I imbued a few to 500 and it still gave me essence.

    What can you imbue with perfect emeralds, I can't see it on the list http://uo.stratics.com/php-bin/show_content.php?content=31013 ?
     
  25. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    ... so the time and effort and skill required shouldn't yield a profit?

    Figured I might as well mention... the method you described is very sub-optimal anyway ;)
     
  26. Silverbird

    Silverbird Slightly Crazed
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    Fine ... pls go and mine 39 perfect emeralds for me and tell me afterwards that it is too easy to obtain a few relic fragments.

    @JL: I suppose it is one of the ML recipes. From havin a look at the list, I would guess it is the Knights War Cleaver. HP reg 3 seems to be one of the highest intensities as bonus from ML recipes.
     
  27. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Speedy - Bronze runic hammers and perfect emeralds may be available in limited quantities, but they are not overflowing the market. Therefore they aren't the source of mass quantities of relic fragments.

    It seems your beef with crafters is that they won't buy your artifacts that you spend your time acquiring from Doom? They cut you out of the picture? If that's the case try lowering your prices on your artifacts. Why should a Doom runner be given 600K - 10M for one artie and the lowly crafter not be able to secure a small steady supply of ingredients to work with?

    EDIT: The nerf hammer is really getting old.
     
  28. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    If there weren't mods that needed relic frags to get ANY LEVEL of iuntensity, then it wouldn't be an issue.

    As it is, crafters need a way to produce Fragments without having to deal with high-end PvM.

    I still find it strange that they made the "rare" ingredients more and more common (which do NOT consume on fail) while they made the top end crafter material rarer and rarer and it DOES consume on fail.
     
  29. Scarst

    Scarst Lore Master
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    They only sell because people are will to buy them first off.

    Now lets move on to your funny 15 frags per elite weapon theory, after the second full property imbued you have a chance to fail and if RNG hates you are going to fail.

    Next Runics still have the ability to make the best weapons, while imbued weapons have limits and to get the highest property you still have to farm a spawn or mine up gems or chop up resources blah blah blah blah.

    Runic weapons can exceed the max intensity of imbued weapons.
    While runic made weapons can be powdered at any time the imbuer most powder up a weapons before they touch it with imbuing which I have seen messed up countless times.

    Basically imbuing is a shot in the arm for crafters and if you don't want to make or sell relic fragments then don't it's that simple. Until imbuing crafters were surviving off selling freaking powder.
     
  30. the 4th man

    the 4th man Lore Master
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    I agree with you Tina. I've been playing a long time now, not once have I gone and bought gold off these, so called, brokers.

    I don't have the need, nor feel compelled to do so. To have to buy gold to play UO is weak sauce, and shows lack of trying. Something a kid would do.
    heaven help the grown up who brings up the subject at a family reunion dinner (he/she would resemble an embarassing jackass, to say the least.)

    I get relics when I need them. No big flippin deal. Farming?? Just some lame word thought up by a no mind who plays games all day.

    If I have to go out and get some crystalline blackrock, I mine for it....is that "farming"? Hell no, it's a "chore". So is killing monsters to make ends meet. Besides, it's my monthly subscription,..... some buy gold, some farm.....whatever.

    Face it Speedster, ever since they itemized the living hell out of this game, there's always somone who isn't happy. That'll never change. There will always be someone who has to keep up with the jones, or Kardasheans(sp?)

    Take yer pick bub.....

    later
     
  31. Cryltaur

    Cryltaur Guest

    I PVM only, and I still find farming a chore. It took me two weeks to finally get a relic fragment (even though I had been hoarding loot for months) after SA came out so that I could build a soulforge, and now I am up to a grand total of 3 relic fragments since that time. Not a powergamer, but I do play every day. I'd rather spend my time testing myself against ancient wyrms, balrons, Navrey, or whatever new thing comes out. Instead, I have to farm for insurance, farm for ingredients, farm for special ingredients, etc. Do I want everything handed to me on a silver platter? No. Do I want the boring stuff handed to be on a silver platter so I can enjoy other aspects of the game, and not feel like it's more work than fun? Well, the platter doesn't have to be silver. :pancakes:
     
  32. ACB1961

    ACB1961 Lore Keeper
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    I was just telling them last night in chat you folks would be trying to nerf this about now.

    I haven't sold a single relic so its not like it will cost me money if they nerf it. I just don't understand how stopping this can help you exactly. Do you have a lot you want to sell for a high price? Do you have no need for relics ever in your uo life?

    I just don't get why you would care at all how relics are made.
     
  33. Nastia Cross

    Nastia Cross Guest

    I just tested this and I really don't see where you're coming up with 70 relics. I burned 26 charges on a bronze hammer on the weapon in question that uses the perfect emeralds with gold ingots, then I unraveled them at the Queen's Forge and I only got 28 relics. So that would lead me to believe I could get MAYBE 40 relics from 35 charges, not the 70 you state.
     
  34. Zambowow

    Zambowow Guest

    He over exaggerates in an attempt to prove his point even though it's incorrect.

    The system seems to work just fine. If people put in the work with the hammers, gems, and ingots, they deserve profit/reward....

    Speedy......go play Warcraft or something....:coco:
     
  35. Fink

    Fink Guest

    I think there is a residual supply from all the people who made mass relics before the first four nerfs. It will take a while before they are used up and the devs' grand vision of a relic-free economy will come to pass. :bowdown:

    The reason this entire mess has perpetuated is overreaction to some perceived crisis that simply doesn't warrant all this angst. UO has more pressing problems which are continually ignored, many of which have led to this "situation". Duped hammers, scripted BODs, resource bots.. these have all fed into the economy at some point and made it much cheaper to manufacture relic fragments. Of course, not everyone who creates relics engages in such nefarious activities, but those sources do lower the price of materials and relics themselves in general.

    Clean up the cheats first and leave the legitimate players (remember: it is not an exploit to make relics) to their own pursuits.
     
  36. Speedy Orkit

    Speedy Orkit Grand Inquisitor
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    No, my example of 70 is with the use of an Ancient Smithy hammer and a talisman. These items can yield 1-3 relic fragments if all made exceptionally. I put my testing up here for all to see where I received about 30. And I'm sure I've been on UO longer than you ^^ I just don't like to see PvMers get any more of a shaft than they already are. Not that crafters haven't gotten their fair share.
     
  37. Freelsy

    Freelsy Babbling Loonie
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    The whole point of the relic system was to bring life into the pvm system again. Your supposed to go out, fight, collect everything you receive as loot and unravel. Not taking low level runics, a few gems and voila, you've got yourself a hefty amount of relic fragments.

    Relics are supposed to be hard to get! You're supposed to have to work for them. Also, don't give me the lecture on "how do you expect my crafter to get relics if I cannot kill anything." You've got a maximum of seven character slots. If you don't like to fight high end monsters you're just hurting yourself.

    For all you saying that gems are hard to come by, and hammers are expensive and this and that. You go to any shard and you've got a thousand vendors selling gems, ingots, special materials. Everything you need at a reasonable price.


    End of argument! I win!! :bowdown:
     
  38. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    My response is for the comment "farming is not playing".

    If farming and grinding is not a part of a MMORPG, then World of Warcraft would have failed miserably.

    And because WoW is so heavy on farming and grinding that's why I deactivated my wow account. But it almost feel like wow has better PvP than UO now.

    UO used to take much much more of a player to PvP successfully or at least be competitive then WoW's bottom pushing cooldown counting PvP but now as UO turning into Ulchers Online making farming and grinding that much more appealing (at least they now have more player skill depended PvP than Ulcher Online).

    But anyways can some of you be so kind and break down and reveal the ways people are doing to craft relic fragments? I rarely farm for anything but I have a house load of resources that I can use to possibly make myself some relics so I dont have to buy them.
     
  39. Apparently as it was stated a few times above you use bronze runic hammers or higher and make golden knight's war cleaver for the hp regen 3. Which makes sense to me but then again I'm guessing now the dev's just didn't consider that particular craftable would be used for creating relics and sooner or later it'll be changed. If it were meant for crafters to create relics that way I'm sure changes would have been made to other recipes which would yield relics but using different gems.
     
  40. lucitus

    lucitus UOEC Modder
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    May i ask you, how much was an armor worth before AoS? Or a good weapon?

    I think it is okay for all to have good armor and weapons! And iam not one of the poor people ;)

    But i want that everyone has nearly the same chance ingame and also weekend gamers, who have to work hard all day long for their money ;)
     
  41. Splup

    Splup Guest

    No need to go back to the state when only rich could get good armor.
     
  42. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    There are two main ways to get relic fragments.
    1 do BoDs, Mining and smithing to create them.
    2. hunt in areas where special drops will give you an item to unravel - either via minor artis or paragon chest which further require a treasure hunter to dig the chest.

    Both methods require considerable time and effort. Therefore I see no imbalance here.

    I do however see someone who had to drop the price of the relic fragments on his vendor to compete with the rest of the shard.

    The vast majority of the 'easy' fragments are coming from unravelling minor artifacts from IDOCs.
     
  43. Sorry, no, you lose. Why, you ask? Because you're wrong. Dead wrong. :coco:


    :loser::dunce:
     
  44. Yep. Exactly what I said to begin with. Someone is greedy and doesn't want his income to take a hit.
     
  45. Restroom Cowboy

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    I see nothing fundamentally wrong with the laws of supply and demand. So...guess I do not agree with the OP...

    As Connor mentioned, either lower your price or wait for everyone to run out. (when hell freezes over)
     
  46. Speedy Orkit

    Speedy Orkit Grand Inquisitor
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    I am not totally against smiths getting relic fragments, just not like this. It seems like an exploitation of the system. Now, getting rid of some of the rewards no one uses any more and are way past due, and replacing them with something like "A crafter's satchel" that instead of giving a stretched hide, or bear rug, gives 5-10 relic frags, I would love that. It would add some meaning to the crafting system, but as is now I just don't see it.

    And Petra, I lowered the prices on those fragments to help out Fanta, you can ask him. But thanks for the call out, Mod.
     
  47. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    Bronze Hammer
    630 Gold Ingots
    35 Emeralds
    Talisman
    +15 Ash
    120 Smith
    120 Imbue
    Gargoyle
    Queen's Forge
    35 Knights Cleaver all EX

    45 Relic Frags


    Good thing I bought hundreds of emeralds from our scripter friends when no one had any use for them. They used to be a forgotten byproduct of mining.
     
  48. Shelleybean

    Shelleybean Certifiable
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    This is a design flaw with imbuing and needs to be corrected. Since they are steadily nerfing all possible ways to get them, short of unraveling ornament of the magician, they need to eliminate them altogether. Maybe increase the number of properties that require enchanted essence.
     
  49. Scarst

    Scarst Lore Master
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    Yeah then make those things rare and desirable hahaha and people still use the rugs in decorating.
     
  50. longshanks

    longshanks Guest

    interesting discussion.

    i dont think the imbuing skill is meant for the new player to train.

    it is very costly to train up, even using the most thrifty methods. if your
    truly a new player you should be more concerned about raising up other skills be it crafting or fighter that will first let you experience all the areas the game has to offer. than u can accumulate wealth and than you can worry about imbuing.

    for the relic frag argument. i don't have a problem if they can be crafted. the
    method described is clearly attainable for the casual player if he/she puts there mind to it. farming up the other ingredients necessary for imbuing suits/weaponry/jewelry are also attainable with a bit of effort.

    of course having the ability to burn low end hammers to get the relic mods on a crafted piece are also available now. so with a bit of effort one can reduce the amounts of relics needed.

    case in point is using a spined kit to craft leather armor with mr 2 lmc mods, than add what you need, viola, no relic frags needed. spined kits and barbed or horned leather are not hard to come by.

    when theres a will theres a way.