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Fix the hardcap and eliminate mage weapons

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Lord Bishop, Feb 16, 2009.

  1. Lord Bishop

    Lord Bishop Seasoned Veteran
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    If you are truly balancing problem in the game then fixing mage weapon property should be on the list. Its an easy work around of the 720 skill cap.
     
  2. Shakur

    Shakur Guest

    so is mana regen, trapped boxs, pots blah blah!
     
  3. Dragkiris

    Dragkiris Visitor

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    Typical medicore dexxer post.
     
  4. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    This.
     
  5. Petrify

    Petrify Lore Master
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    Mages have been nerfed to oblivion and you want them nerfed even more?

    lol.
     
  6. Spree

    Spree Babbling Loonie
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    I want a use best weapon skill spell book. Sometimes my legs get tired from running.
     
  7. Lord Bishop

    Lord Bishop Seasoned Veteran
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    Fixing the hardcap is a good thing. Perhaps you all just average gimp mages without the ability to survive without 100 free pts assuming you scraped enough money to buy a 120 mag scroll.
     
  8. mr.blackmage

    mr.blackmage Guest

    Pretty sure that anyone that is playing a mage nowadays has the 20's that they need.
     
  9. Kayne.

    Kayne. Journeyman
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    lol using a magewep is pretty much a choice only made for defensive purposes...

    yes make it so dexxers hit every time. and mages must have 80 dex 120 parry to combat it
     
  10. Lord Bishop

    Lord Bishop Seasoned Veteran
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    There is a skill called wrestling you can use it keeps dexxors as you call them from hitting you every time. Its simple to remove the mage weapon enforce the 720 cap and for mages to survive via wrestling i believe that is the skill the devs originally viewed for defense purposes for mages.
     
  11. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    Mages used to have wrestling.. too bad they can't bring back disarm for mages :( .. where you could hit disarm and still cast. Para blow and disarm nerf were a BIG blow to wrestling mages. I really miss that..
     
  12. Radun

    Radun Guest

    yep.. remove mage weapons, and turn off the special-moves toggle from casting spells for wrestling only.
    as it stands right now wrestling is only a useful skill to have on a dexxer, and even then only slightly.
     
  13. Mistura

    Mistura Lore Keeper
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    Wrestling? on a dexxer? Whaa?

    *Confused*
     
  14. Radun

    Radun Guest

    It's more useful on a pure dexer template than it is on a pure mage template.
     
  15. Airhaun

    Airhaun Seasoned Veteran
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    Remove mage weapons? Are you mad?
     
  16. ^^^
     
  17. RichDC

    RichDC Guest

    With the amount of hit lower defence out there removing the mages defence from weap shouldnt be hard at all!!

    If you cant hit a mage how in hell do you hope to hit a dexxer??

    Rethink your suit template or game style!

    Btw yes i play a mage and yes i use a mage weap (-20 no pen 14%dci) only have 49%dci so a HLD should make me easy to hit.
     
  18. drawn

    drawn Journeyman
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    if dexxers need 45 HCI to hit anything, shouldnt mages have to carry 45 Hit Spell Increase to hit someone with a spell?

    true dxxers can use apples and boxes to get around resist, but mages get sc mage weps to get free 100-120 wep skill.

    this would be fairer in my opinion-

    45 hci, 45 dci 45 spell hit increase or 45 spell hit defense.
     
  19. Splup

    Splup Guest

    Then we want to cast while running and not be able to be distrurpted
     
  20. red sky

    red sky Sage
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    Obviously someone doesn't play a mage or isn't very good at playing a mage.
     
  21. Limlight

    Limlight Guest

    Isnt a Mage Weapon similiar to a Macer Dexer who uses a UBWS Bone Harvy?
     
  22. ATLPvPer

    ATLPvPer Journeyman
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    The scariest thing about this post is that only ONE developer PvPs, so if any of the other ones read this they would actually think it sound advice.

    Look, when mages can cast without stopping, cast without fizzling from being hit, and have as a chance fighting any other template 1v1, then please talk me.

    Mage weapons are the only thing keeping most mages even half competitive. I play a tank mage, so don't say I am only stating that because I don't want my template nerfed. It would actually help me.
     
  23. Shakur

    Shakur Guest

    lolz some people have no clue.

    when mages can can flamestrikes every 1.25 secs on the run without being interuppted then you can whine all you want about mage weapons!

    its not our fault you suck and have to resort to playing a dexta!
     
  24. Kayne.

    Kayne. Journeyman
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    i am all for the removal of mageweps

    BUT

    Give mages

    A. No spell-special toggle hold thing

    B. Buff wrestling somehow.

    C. Lower dex requirement of parry?

    D. Something along any of those lines.
     
  25. Splup

    Splup Guest

    Also mage weapons are disarmable, leaving the mage very easy target. I see no problem here. I have 1 char using magewep, and that's only because he uses bushido also. Otherwise I will take eval+anat or wrestling since then I can't be disarmed and moving shotted to death.
     
  26. Splup

    Splup Guest

    Also I see no prob getting skillpoints over 720. That's the purpose of +skill items. Using skill items is usually away from something. Someone saying mages are overpowered compared to dexers gotta be pretty bad dexer player. Learn to use your temp, and you'll notice mages are not overpowered.

    Playing a mage also requires a lot more IRL skills and knowing the game mechanics then playing a dexer. Dexers are dbl click run temps, mages need to know what to do.
     
  27. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    Right, look. I hate mages too but this is a bit much.

    They need Tactics to perform the Moves.
    You can Disarm the weapons.
    They're not holding a book spamming Disarm, due to Wrestling not counting the book.
    They have something in both hands if they are holding a shield, thus blocking insta-potting! Yeah, there is a slight speed advantage!
    Once you Disarm them, unlike when they have Wrestling+Book.. You will hit just about everytime.
    They are not even swinging when casting.
    And like you, they too can miss!

    And in case you haven't noticed even with 120 in Tactics the damage these templates deal with their weapon is more often than not neglectable at 120+ HP, 70 Resist. So is the speed at which they hit.

    Now if you went up against a mage with 120 Anat/Tact/Parry(Cramped?), 90-100 DEX, 45 HCI and 45+ DCI.... Well, it's the template that beats yours quite obviously. Gulp it down and fight someone else or switch characters.

    One thing though.. I hate it when Disarm becomes again the easy and obvious solution. And the exception to all of the above is the mage using a Mage Weapon with Disarm, in which case it's like playing in the lottery- who manages to land the Disarm first... So it's nothing to do with templates but with game features(Disarm namely) being implemented in a stupid manner.

    *EDIT*
    The Concussion/Mana Vamp mage templates will be gone once Conc. gets balanced.
     
  28. Saris

    Saris Guest

    You know I have changed one or two of my char templates due to nerfs oh about 1000 times, stop the madness OP and take your idea's on how to ballance a game, and just throw them away.

    I have a seige char, he is skill dependent, but on my home shard of Atlantic I have a char that use up to 870 skill points, this alows for crazy templates that do have advatages yes, so join in on it and get some items.

    I just dont understand why folks cant item up their own chars, its kinda fun to re-do chars every now and then.

    Also why have itmes with skill bonus if you want a 720 hardcap?

    You want to delete them all and ruin 80% of all templates ppl play with now?

    PUB 16 was a long time ago catch up.

    Oh ya and Disarm for the win when a mage wep is getting ya down.
     
  29. Nystul

    Nystul Lore Master
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    This thread has fail written all over it. So does the OP...
     
  30. Radun

    Radun Guest

    No. Magery is a skill absolutely distinct from any weapon skill.

    P.S. why is everyone reading this as a dexer vs mage thread? the issue is that a mage can equip 1 or 2 items that give them a total 120+skillpoint advantage to their template... that advantage sticks vs mages whom are not using a mage weapon just the same as vs dexers.. their weapon can have a hitspell too, then without using any skillpoints (taking away from their other skills) they get 2 extra ticks of damage (read: possible disrupts to my spellcasting). on a one-handed "non -1" weapon, they can still chug. there is absolutely no drawback... none.

    I think they should make the -20 to -29 be a deduction applied to their magery skill CAP, rather than their adjusted skill level... (use a -20 (even with a crystalline ring) and your magery CAP goes from 120 to 100 while equipped)
     
  31. I think a problem that needs to be considered with all these so called "nerfs" is that it narrows the skill field and reduces the template variability. People find skill and item combos that work well for them. Then someone complains that it is overpowered and asks (and sometimes demands) that it be fixed. If everything is "fixed" sooner or later there is nothing left but for everyone to be the same.

    While there are a lot of mage weapons, no one can tell me that "everyone plays a mage in PvP with mage weapons now." Because it ain't so. Otherwise why the complaints about tamers, and concussion and animal form and stealth this and that. Mage weapons are empowering but not overpowering; for me it is the defensive ability.

    Smart people will find and continue to look for things that give them a slight edge. Don't take them all away or you will take all the variability and fun out of the game.
     
  32. Radun

    Radun Guest

    That is true, however...
    I seriously doubt that mage weapons were originally introduced with the intention of all their drawbacks being countered just so (some) mages could have an extra 120skillpoints in their template... just the same as when they adjusted how MR works, because every mage out there had 0 med 0 focus because 6 to 12 mr on your suit provided a more-than-sufficient mana regen rate.
    What I personally have said in this thread is in no ways saying that mages are overpowered or that this is the #1 thing that needs to be rebalanced.. I even suggested another change (not directly related to mage weapons) in this very thread.
    They are just 2 of many suggestions for things that need to be addressed in the next upcoming pvp rebalancing pass.
     
  33. There will ALWAYS be ways in which people use an item that was never intended or thought of. That will always always always happen. That is the FUN part of MMO's... the creativity of people!

    If mages are not overpowered and can utilize a mage weapon to compete, where otherwise they wouldn't be in the game, what's the big deal?
     
  34. Shioni

    Shioni Guest

    5 years and best I have gotten is 15 scroll and none of my friends have gotten better then 110.

    But then again I am not a power gamer that farms spawns or shops in Luna.

    Also I would say to anyone who thinks the game needs to be balanced to quite your whining an learn how to play better. Mage weapons obviously have a good -20% HCI and there is no damage bonus without tactics or anatomy.

    On top of all that a little known fact is that if your using a mage weapon, makes mage slayer items do 50% more damage to you just like Undead slayer weapons do 50% more damage to people in wraith/lich/vamp forms.

    And lets not forget a mage slayer weapon that has a slayer mod like undead means players who poly morph into the counter balance do double damage breaking the damage cap.

    Staff of Pyros against a player in orc form = instant death.
     
  35. Spree

    Spree Babbling Loonie
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    OK I'll settle for a -30 fencing mage book. I will accept a few fails when I'm gating. This blister is getting big on my toe. :hahaha:
     
  36. Black Majick

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    How about just make it too where when they have a mage wep on...they cannot use jewelry or items to get them back to 120 magery??? Balances it no??? They get 100 free skill points if using a one handed at the cost of losing 20 Magery. If they use a two handed mage wep like staff of magi they already losing the ability to use pots (reason most use one handed anyway). I think that balances it a bit....
     
  37. Radun

    Radun Guest

    I take issue with that, being one of the players who plays mainly mages, none of whom use mage weapons, and do fine without one.
    It's not something that's 'making them viable', it's pushing them to the edge, but not quite over the top. Mages are more than viable without mage weaps.
     
  38. Radun

    Radun Guest

    Yes precisely... it should lower the cap also, not just lower the adjusted skill level.

    Mage weapons should lower the cap, so you can't just put on some nice +magery jewelry for a free weaponskill with no downside/drawback.
     
  39. Limlight

    Limlight Guest

    You completely missed my point.

    UBWS gives you an extra 120 skillpoints too genius.

    If a Macer was a Bone Harvy for Mortal...UBWS gives it to him.

    If you PvP'ed you would know this is extremely popular for fencers/macers.
    Its basically the some argument but since its 120 points of UBWS are for your benefit...you arent complaining.....

    Even more ironic is UBWS doesnt need any kind of weapon to offset the extra skill points...mage weapon does and it needs 2 extra mods on top of Mage weapon to benefit.

    Seriously..
     
  40. Green Meanie

    Green Meanie Guest

    Mage weapons realy arnt that big of deal but i can live with them being removed if they removed untoggle of specs when casting for wrestling gave wrestling a built in 15 dci and lowered dex req for parrty to say 60.

    i mean realy what wrestle mage can fit hci into there template for the weapon specs to count you cant ever use them unless you stop casting and wait for it to land witch results in 2 mins of wiffing before you finaly get lucky.

    on the counter mage weapons give no real offence sure theres a lil damage there but mages use them to not get hit and nothing more.

    also as an above poster said mage weapon needs at least 1 other property of your 5 to be realy usefull most ask for 2

    that being mage weapon spell channeling and faster casting

    Edit: and for the poster that said devs never saw ppl adding to there template to negate the negatives of mage weapons please explain to me what they where thinking when they introduced the staff of the magi or swords of prosperty then its litteraly a free 120 points all you lose is ez pots
     
  41. Radun

    Radun Guest

    No, I got your point, I just don't agree that it's valid.
    For UBWS you need to have a weapon skill for it to work, UBWS is just letting you use one fighting skill for another type of weapon. It's the same type of skill, you're just using one type of weapon instead of another.
    Magery is a completely different type of skill... With mage weap prop it's basing off a skill that has nothing to do with with hitting and defending with a weapon.
     
  42. Limlight

    Limlight Guest

    lol...Its still 120 points of extra skill that you dont even need items to offset.

    Seriously, I dont get how you can say Mage weapon is bad but UBWS isnt.

    They do the same thing basically. They are both free skill. Except Mage Weapon is 100 free points. UBWS is 120.
     
  43. Lord Bishop

    Lord Bishop Seasoned Veteran
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    Whaaaaa your going to hurt my feelings. Mage Weapon property is not a skill bonus like +20 magery from the crystaline ring, it gives up to 100 free points to any character with magery. Therefore it should be fixed in the upcoming balance. Everyone can whine about how this effects them, but you cannot deny the property does not reflect well on a hard 720 cap.
     
  44. Lord Bishop

    Lord Bishop Seasoned Veteran
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  45. There are other skills where you can combine skill bonus items to gain an additional 120-140 skill points. I had one bracelet alone with 59 skill points (albeit in a useless combination).

    So, unless you also deal with that, it would be unfair to pick solely on magery. Almost EVERY skills has skill bonuses on items. You have to treat it as a whole, not just attack the mage property.
     
  46. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    ^^^ this.
     
  47. are tere any bows with mage slayer? or a tali? would a tali do dbl dmg to a mage with a mage wep?

    thanks!!!!
     
  48. Lord Bishop

    Lord Bishop Seasoned Veteran
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    You seem to be missing the pt. +skills are not the same as mage wep property. Mage wep gives you a free skill up to 100 pts. + items simply increase a skill you already have. This isnt about pvp balance its about skill cap of 720 balance.
     
  49. RichDC

    RichDC Guest

    When you PvP you know that a mage weap with those mods is godly for the 15%dci and no penalty and HL, not to do damage...

    As Defense, The 15%dci self explanitory the HL for you is an extra disrupt...to DEFEND against mages!!!


    Most mages who use the weaps wont be running with high dex so maybe (even with a 2s weap) hit once every 3s, then the casting breaks the swing, so maybe every 5 seconds. Now count in the fact that without WEAPON skil AND tactics you cannot perform the specials...please explain how a mage would expect tot use the waeapon as offensive?

    And to the poster who cant work out the difference between ubws and magery...you can still use specials (except bushido evasion) we cant (you win) you can switch between ranged and toe to toe effectivly (if you can find the bows) we cant, you still have defence if disarmed (pary/bush) we dont!!!

    So, dexxers get any weapon choice(by this i mean specials) they want relatively easily, can choose between umpteen specials and damage types thats ok right??

    Mages, can choose no weapon choice(no specials) with GREAT difficulty and gains 0 difference in the offence...but this is wrong???

    All i can csay is STUPIDITY!
     
  50. Nvnter

    Nvnter Guest

    Devs do not make any changes until after I have unraveled all my Mage Weps.:lick: