1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

For those who think that processes on your computer aren't being monitored.

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Llewen, Oct 12, 2010.

  1. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    From the Ultima Online Terms of Service:

    You should be aware that the processes on your computer are being monitored by the 3rd party cheat detection. This is perfectly normal with just about any online gaming service these days. I'm not pointing this out to cause a panic, I'm pointing this out so that those who are inclined to cheat, and think that they can run an application like ****** without EA being aware of it, know that this is not the case.
     
  2. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
    Professional VIP Stratics Veteran Supporter Alumni Campaign Benefactor Alumni

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Messages:
    8,023
    Likes Received:
    1,714
    Let's hope that this only refers to in-game communication.
     
  3. Babble

    Babble Guest

    I doubt it.
    That passage is for the file that surveyed the computer speccs.
     
  4. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    It means that they only care about processes that interact with the game client or server in some way. But they certainly are monitoring the processes running on your computer. The 3rd party cheat detection would be worthless without it.

    And let me repeat what I already posted, there isn't a major commercial online gaming service released in the past five years or more that doesn't do a similar thing. You simply cannot implement effective cheat detection without it.

    All of the major MMO's released or under active development in the past five years or more include similar functionality.
     
  5. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
    Professional VIP Stratics Veteran Supporter Alumni Campaign Benefactor Alumni

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Messages:
    8,023
    Likes Received:
    1,714
    Seems a bit like warrantless wiretapping. Well, hopefully it'll stem the cheating issue.
     
  6. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    "...and any data related to operation of the Software through the Service from any computer that logs on to the Service using your Account"

    That includes more than just hardware information. That gives them permission to collect running process and loaded dll information as well, and I can pretty much guarantee they are doing it.
     
  7. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    As I understand it the decision was made deliberately not to target those sites. And as to whether you choose to consider that what I have posted in this thread might be true, or not? That's entirely up to you. It doesn't really matter I suppose. You've agreed to it, and it's going to happen regardless of what you choose to believe...
     
  8. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    There was a law that was passed 2 or 3 years ago that allows software to monitor what is being used to affect it. It's pretty detailed in what the software company can and can't do. But it allows for this sort of thing in games. Basically, it allows any software to be protected against use, abuse, or modifying that's not intended by the maker and spelled out in the terms of use.
    It also protects the user from spying or data mining outside of that software company's rights. While I'm not an expert on such things, it seems like an excellent law in every way.
     
  9. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    6,032
    Likes Received:
    145
    You come to this conclusion based on absolutely nothing. Just shut up with these cheating threads. How many have to get locked before you just stop?
     
  10. Arcus

    Arcus Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    Messages:
    6,452
    Likes Received:
    107

    Your posts sound like a preacher trying to sway people and make them react to something based on fears of going to hell or some other such made up fairy tales.

    It is very clear the only thing you are trying to accomplish is getting people riled up over nothing. Why dont you post some of the software agreements/licenses from lets say...oh...microsoft for a comparison? Ever see what THEY can do to the WHOLE OS. This is nothing.

    I know why , because that would not help your cause to compare and contrast and show people that this really is not all you make it out to be.
     
  11. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Cheating and the fight against it are a worthy subject. His threads don't get locked because of the subject, they get locked because the trolls show up.
     
  12. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    That's very interesting, I thought something like this had happened because I know that a few years ago the tos for online games were a lot more explicit with regard to the monitoring of processes than they are now. I know that the 3rd party cheat detection would have to monitor processes and was surprised when we didn't see a much more explicit tos in that regard. That explains it. I expect that most western countries have passed similar laws.

    No, I started this thread because I know there is a lot of uncertainty out there with regard to what the 3rd party cheat detection is doing exactly, and I know from my experience in game that there are those who are inclined to cheat who think they can still get away with running 3rd party cheat applications as long as they don't use them for whatever particular list of activities they assume are the ones being targeted.

    I posted this thread to let people like that know that they can't run these applications safely, under any circumstances. The devs have made it clear that they are only going after specific scripts, but we don't know what those scripts are, and you would be foolish to assume that any use of these programs is "safe" or undetectable.

    So the explicit message is this, if you are using illegal third party apps, stop.

    And you are correct. There has been a deliberate campaign of trolling with the specific goal of getting all threads on this subject locked. Unfortunately it has been working.
     
  13. Arcus

    Arcus Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    Messages:
    6,452
    Likes Received:
    107

    Why would you want them to know? I want them gone! Let them run the cheat programs and caught and get banned. I don't want them in the game , plain and simple , at all. Ever. I dont want them to stop, I want them gone.

    Are you the type of guy that sees a guy breaking into a car and tells him that the police are right around the corner?
     
  14. Arcus

    Arcus Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    Messages:
    6,452
    Likes Received:
    107

    Some of the cheaters are honest players? Do you realize what you just said there?

    Once you cheat , you are no longer an honest player.

    Sounds like you are just an apologist for them. " Ohh....poor honest player couldn't compete so you cheated. Thats ok ,everyone else is doing it. You are still honest."

    WTF?
     
  15. Ls Jax Ls

    Ls Jax Ls Visitor

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    709
    Likes Received:
    0
    LLewen, the only possible reason to post such a pointless thread is to try and scare people into not using 3rd party programs. We get it: you hate cheaters and whine about them 24/7. Get over it, it's a video game.
     
  16. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    I remember when this clause went in years and YEARS ago... I last played in 99. Those words or something like them have been in there a long time.

    It caused a major uproar, are they going to spy on us... Are they going to look at our processes...

    I say: If the answer to that was yes, then those cheats to script people used never would have made it this far.
     
  17. Ls Jax Ls

    Ls Jax Ls Visitor

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    709
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, if this were added recently you would have to re-accept TOS.
     
  18. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    Well, I'm of the opinion that if a cheater get's banned more than just the cheater loses. The cheater loses, EA loses a subscription, and I lose an opponent in pvp. So in a perfect world I would rather that those who are inclined to cheat would get the message that if they do so, they are going to get caught, so it isn't worth doing it in the first place. If that happens, we all win.
     
  19. Ls Jax Ls

    Ls Jax Ls Visitor

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    709
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good thing nobody lives their life under your expectations.
     
  20. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Well hes right. Just because they cheat doesn't mean there dishonest. Those thiefs in UO that rob from you in trammel by joinin a guild just to do it I consider that dishonest doesn't mean they cheat though. The opposite is also true.
    Or when a person lies to another in real life but will never steal or when a person uses a 3rd party app yet they would never manipulate another player and always helpful. Etc... countless situations where his statement is true.
     
  21. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    582
    Why doesn't Llewen just post one of these threads every day, oh wait.... Everyone has read your personal crusade.

    Do you not read what the Dev team post in the many replies they have thrown out there, the epic spreadsheet and all that? There is no cheating and nothing to see. Do not worry about it, you're collective fluffy heads need not worry. Not a soul is mining right now, or chopping wood, fishing or even collecting gold. No one is training nothing.

    The Dev team has got it handled, don't worry.

    And that (F) section has been in the ToS for how long now? Don't bother telling anyone that EA/Mythic will do a thing.
     
  22. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Anyway to add the obvious just because that part of the agreement might be forceble in some countries doesn't mean it's forceble in others. As UO is a world wide game violating laws in multiple countries is bound to occur and as always avoided as much as possible.
     
  23. Arcus

    Arcus Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    Messages:
    6,452
    Likes Received:
    107

    Has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

    So what? Are they Robin Hood or something?




    Someone knowingly violating the rules of a game by using third party apps after agreeing to the rules and knowing the impact that this has on the game and community as a whole is NOT honest. They are violating the contract (which is what it is) that they agreed to only because they feel they can get away with it for now.

    If you ask 90% of the people who cheat ,in a public forum, if they do or not they will lie and say they don't. Are they still honest?

    You have low standards.
     
  24. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    As long as the countries where they have their servers located have laws to the same effect, they have no problem. Lets say someone from some small country that doesn't have a law like this gets banned for cheating. What's anyone going to do? They are playing on a server in another country with those laws. And I believe every country with UO servers have similar laws.
     
  25. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    I don't think their goal is to ban all cheaters. I think it's to get players to stop cheating, and if they insist on cheating, then they'll get banned.

    Whether they are honest people or not is not a judgment call they want to make.
     
  26. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    Exactly! And that's the way it should be in my opinion. None of us are perfectly honest all the time, if dishonesty alone was reason enough to be banned, no one would be playing UO.
     
  27. /False

    IN ORDER TO HELP MAKE ULTIMA ONLINE A GOOD EXPERIENCE FOR EVERYONE, ELECTRONIC ARTS MAY OCCASIONALLY FIND IT NECESSARY TO MAKE CHANGES TO, OR RESET CERTAIN PARAMETERS OF, AN ON-GOING WORLD IN ORDER TO BRING IT BACK INTO BALANCE. THESE CHANGES OR RESETS MAY AFFECT CHARACTERS UNDER YOUR CONTROL AND MAY CAUSE YOU SETBACKS WITHIN THE GAME WORLD.

    THESE RULES MAY BE CHANGED, AND NEW RULES MAY BE ADDED, AT ANY TIME. YOU AGREE TO CHECK THE ULTIMA ONLINE WEB SITE FROM TIME TO TIME TO REVIEW ANY RULE CHANGES THAT ELECTRONIC ARTS MAY HAVE MADE


    NO need to "re-accept" the TOS ... the installation click through agreement
    puts the >responsibility< on the account holder to be aware (by reviewing the current agreement, as amended) of the current state ...

    obviously ... you have not bothered to read it ...
    or
    having read it, failed to understand ...
    doesn't matter either way ...

    as always ...
    ignorance is no defense.

    badda-bump-tisssssh! :gee:
     
  28. Arcus

    Arcus Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    Messages:
    6,452
    Likes Received:
    107

    You presume to know each and every one of us. More flaws in your logic. Please list every person and the dishonest thing they did...GO!


    Oh you cant, why? Because you don't know everyone of the freaking planet.
     
  29. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Not similar enough as we are talking about europe asia and usa at least. Australia also? not sure. Then when we get into the states there is federal law and individual state law to get into then of course theres even more complications to it. Either waythey have plenty of lawers to cover them selves though I think they busy trying to fight the hundreads of lawsuits they must get per day. Makes me want to become a corporate lawyer win or lose I still get paid good :)
     
  30. Slickjack

    Slickjack Rares Fest Host | Cats Nov 2010
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2008
    Messages:
    1,462
    Likes Received:
    65

    IF this all shakes down as you say, then the people using 3rd party apps to cheat would likely not play anymore anyway if they couldn't use them.

    I truly believe it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" type thing.

    I don't want the 3PA's in game in any form or fashion and believe that, without them, the balance of the game would return. But, hypocritically, I really will miss the vendor that has 60k iron ingots for 200k :stretcher:
     
  31. Kellgory

    Kellgory Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    1,639
    Likes Received:
    1
    That clause of the TOS was brought up and discussed here on UHall (I think) back when SA was still being beta tested. Not much came out of the discussion other than there was the possiblity of UO monitoring programs running in the backgound, but that was also way before they announced the third party detection program. The clause should't come as a suprise to anyone since everyone of us confirmed that we read and understood the TOS and EULA when we signed up or upgraded.
     
  32. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Nobody is honest thats just how it is. Everyone has lied in there life for good or bad. There are holier than though speaking about morality for things like games but still go home and beat there wife. Im just saying in the context he said honest cheaters he is correct as you can be honest and cheat or dishonest and never use 3rd party. You can easily skim the line by using a outside software to interact with software authorised on EA to do the same things though. Either way such things like cheating in a game cannot be used to judge a person character.

    But really nobody in the forum and anybody thats not a lawyer cares about TOS let alone the ROC. Very few even read it when first playing any game or buying any software as it's very 1 sided it's usually trown out in court. If EA said in TOS that I give them my first born child and I click ok and someone says to me you need to give them your child as you clicked on a contract well we all know how that will end up as. Just like what people say It's my computer and I do what I want with it.

    Anyway people take the risk which as ive seen is more than half of UO population and Ea takes the risk of banning. Still if they did ban half of those they catch we wouldn't have a game just from waht I've seen. Look at this small banning and look how empty it became. If we were bringing in new permaneant membership that would be a different story but as thats a losing task well they have to be careful and enforce on those who really destroys UO.
     
  33. Korik Bloodguard

    Korik Bloodguard Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    Messages:
    891
    Likes Received:
    0
    Believe it or not, there's a big difference between a routine clause in a licence agreement and banning people for cheating.

    As is pretty evident...
     
  34. rareitem

    rareitem Journeyman
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    146
    Likes Received:
    3
    Punish when you can just block ???

    If they can monitor our systmes ( what I find quite illegal in many countries)
    as a videogame producer, why would I punish a costumer if I just can block the execution of my software under certain circunstances???
    Its totally stupid, loosing a costumer forever is not very clever and ofc is not the solution to this problem.
     
  35. Arcus

    Arcus Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    Messages:
    6,452
    Likes Received:
    107

    Wow, you and the other guy know every person on the planet. Whew. I guess I really need to give twitter a try. It must be amazing!!
     
  36. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    They can't though. It will be a cat and mouse game which they don't have funding or resources for. Just giving programmers a challenge to circumvent there system will produce things that would be so out of control that you will be seeing gargoyles actually flyng across the oceans and stygian dragons as tamed pets even if it's for 1 or 2 days before the chase begins again this is enough to completely destroy the game forever.
     
  37. rareitem

    rareitem Journeyman
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    146
    Likes Received:
    3
    ERMM? let me see so bannnig is ok but bloking will destroy the game , your logic is quite peculiar
     
  38. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Banning is not ok either except for the most serious offenses but banning does not challenge programmers anti-cheat systems do.
     
  39. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Don't want to get deeply into religion though I just beleive Jesus was a man am agnostic so there is proof he existed. But I was using him as a methophor of honest but if even he wasnt honest then how could anybody else be.

    Babies will eventually be dishonest no matter what. Doesn't matter if a person is honest now or before or will be. My point is that a person that lives his/her whole life will be dishonest either lie to parents, friends, girl/boyfriends, teachers, or steal or break jay walking law,litter law,singing in elevators law, no cursing law, no playing ball rule. no cutting school etc.. For there own welfare or anothers welfare no matter what there taught or how thery learn.

    The first dishonest thing a baby does is when the baby realise that they can manipulate there shadow like figure "mother" to come to them by crying after that it's all down hill. So assuming the baby knock on wood survives to live a average life then he/she would of lied,manipulate,break a law/rule sometime or many times in there life.
     
  40. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    You never know we might be neighbors lol. It's not about judging people it's just logical just like the Earth spins at it's axis and is oval shape we have a yellow sun and the names of the known planets in our solar system are from closest to the Sun are Mercury,Venus,Earth,Mars "astroid belt in the middle" then Jupiter,Saturn, Uranus Neptune and was Pluto but has being declassified as a planet but when it was considered a planet Neptune and Pluto switched orbits so sometimes Neptunes was farther away from sun than pluto.

    Anyway it's logic if also want to go into morality then we go back to the saying Let He Who Is Without Sin cast the first stone. I sure won't be casting any stones. Nor will anybody else in the world.
     
  41. Siteswap

    Siteswap Visitor

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    573
    Likes Received:
    0
    If EA really are monitoring this information, then it is another example of their ineptitude and incompetence.

    They are basically saying that they know who is cheating, but as long as its not on a huge scale then they will turn a blind eye. They probably looked at the stats and realised if they banned everyone who was cheating then they wouldnt have a game any more. The solution was to make some token bannings then ignore all the rest of the cheaters ... just like they have done for years.

    What a bunch of clowns.
     
  42. Magdalene

    Magdalene Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    May 1, 2000
    Messages:
    7,501
    Likes Received:
    164
    Everyone - CHILL.
    OR ELSE.

    And leave Jesus out of it, I don't even have OT-NHB forum to send you to to discuss religion...
     
  43. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    This has been in the TOS since the beginning, its a catch all standard thing. It doesn't show that they're aware of anything and btw, noone I know has had a single warning or ban, not even those that cheat almost all the time they play.
     
  44. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    This has absolutely nothing to do with honesty, its no different than breaking a dress code at a restaurant or having a small pet in a no pet appartment. Breaking a rule has nothing to do with honesty.

    It is not considered a contract here at all. All it is, is a bunch of rules for their service, just like private places you go to have rules.
     
  45. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    LOL? And people say the cheaters lack honesty? Here's one lacking in it to say the least.

    The reason the thread got locked was at request of the OP and several others:

     
  46. Heartseeker

    Heartseeker Guest

    Hmm sounds like spying to me.

    I don't really like monitoring under the disguise of helping us.

    Sounds like the crap we here from government on a daily basis.
     
  47. Evlar

    Evlar Guest

    There is a strange light hovering above my house...

    should I be afraid?
     
  48. Elric_Soban

    Elric_Soban Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    2,258
    Likes Received:
    14
    No they are not monitoring your processes they are monitoring signals between your computer and their servers. 3rd party cheats dont send signals to the servers, they interface with your uo client.
     
  49. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    I'd lend you my tinfoil hat, but I depend on it... :dunce: