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forged pardons

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Beastmaster, Jul 23, 2010.

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  1. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    I think the new forged pardons should come with their own negative side effect, namely statloss for a prescribed time. That would discourage use of multiple pardons at once. Say 20% statloss of character's normal stats per pardon. If you use 5 in a row you wind up as a ghost for the duration of all 5 statloss times with no possibility of resurrection until the 5th expires.
     
  2. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    I don't understand this in the first place. I wonder if the Devs think that all players would go red if they could get out of it with this? For my part, I have no desire to kill other players and take what they worked for. I equally don't want others doing so to me and then getting an easy out.
     
  3. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Trebr, Mythic is pro pvp by their own admission. We are going to have a tough time keeping their antisocial behavior in check.
     
  4. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Well, there's a difference between PvP and PKing. Maybe they don't see a difference, in which case they'd be "pro PKing".
     
  5. popps

    popps Always Present
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    When one is running a business and numbers must be balanced out and bills and salaries paid, what one might want or like is not much relevant.

    What is relevant is what keeps the product succesfull and rewarding and pays for all expenses, provides resources for maintaining it and all that.

    I have met quite many players over the time I played UO who rage-quit over things like pkilling, griefing and such and having a game that looses subscriptions rather than gains them ain't exactly good publicity.

    Besides, as I see it, PvP is not pkilling at all.

    The way I see player vs. player challenge is fights with open out endings. That is, neither party having the upper hand in the fight be it for superior wealth or gear.

    Only battle tactics, strategy and yes, luck, should make it for a win.

    Instead, in UO we have for way too many years seen (and still do today...) wealth and superior gear (mods/intensities) be the determining factor in winning PvP fights.

    To my opinion, this is not what PvP should be. My idea of PvP lies in skills like battle tactics and strategy for the fight and yes, also luck in RNG to land that decisive blow at the right time and moment.

    By all counts, pkilling has no place in PvP, IMHO and that is why I disagree with the pardons change. If we really have to get it at least make it way rarer and occasional than what it now is.
     
  6. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I would imagine that they've put these in, not because they're pro or anti pvp, pk or anything else. But because, repeatedly and often, players have asked for it!
     
  7. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Letting the inmates run the asylum is not the answer.

    Especially when those inmates are only a part of the player base.
     
  8. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    I agree. Players have asked for it.

    I'm a player, and I see the proposed answer to those players' desires and I want to express my desire to see some checks put in place. Fair enough?
     
  9. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Number one, the players posting on Forums and "asking for changes" are just a minority of the entire player base of the game. We simply have no idea of what most of the players who play UO want because they do not post their opinions about the game on Forums.

    Furthermore, the thing is, before adding changes which might potentially have a bad effect to the game, the consequences should be better foreseen.

    If UO had millions of subscriptions I would not care, loosing a number of them would not hurt it.

    My concern is that having tons of reds turn blue overnight and be able to do it at will switching from red to blue as they wish thus countering the negative effects of murder counts might in the end hurt the game, provide for another wave of rampant pkilling and consequential rage-quitting of players.

    We need to ask ourselves : Can Ultima Online afford the risk to see a wave of rage-quittings ?

    Let's not forget, that the game will need to deal with the losses from scripters who will not like the upcoming anti-script changes and will quit the game (or will be banned).

    Do we really want to add on top of that another variable like a new wave of pkillings and consequential rage-quittings ?

    I say too much a risk for the game as it stands now.

    Better do things slowly, over time and monitor things closely to eventually make adjustments one small step at a time.

    So I say for now have pardons drop very, but VERY rarely (1 in a hundred Maps sounds reasonable to me) and then, over time, monitor how it goes and make adjustments if needed.

    Definately 1 pardon over 3 Maps is way too common a drop, IMHO.
     
  10. HD2300

    HD2300 Certifiable
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    I guess the logic is, characters banksitting burning off counts takes up bandwidth and costs EA money, so minimise that.

    Personally, I think everyone entering Fel becomes red, when you enter Tram you become blue.
     
  11. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    Hold on...
    Each one removes one short and one long count, is how I read it...
    If I were knee-deep in murder counts, from my antisocial career as an evil PKer of people who knew damn well what the risks were when stepping into fell, I'd likely need several backpacks full of these pardons to get back in the blue.
    Unless these things can be churned out at a rate of 3,000 an hour by scribes, with nothing more than a blank scroll each, then there's likely to be a check/balance in the acquisition. Not only do I doubt the lamented rampant PKer is going to be terribly interested in a momentary shift in the colour spectrum, only to revert to red as soon as they return to their preferred playstyle, but I also doubt that they're going to be trivial to acquire.

    I see these as more intended for those that enjoy a bit of PvP, but aren't fond of the idea of being locked into a facet.
    Whatever-we're-supposed-to-call-Mythic-nowadays aren't being pro-PvP at the expense of everyone else, they're just not being anti-PvP.
    You know, they have Faction changes in the pipes. That's going to mean a whole new lot of people trying it out when it happens, which is going to mean a whole lot of people messing about in fel, who might accidentally go red in the midst of PvP.

    Also, it's a little slice of realism.
    Whether a person is considered a murderer or not would be in the hands of the lawmakers, not some infallible sky wizard who keeps a detailed ledger of everyone's murder counts.
    A system run by people is open to exploitation or error, such as forged pardons and the like.
     
  12. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Realism? How many forged pardons are accepted before the sheriff gets run out of office?
     
  13. popps

    popps Always Present
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    The thing is, that while there may be reds with "thousands" of counts, beyond recoverable even with pardons, there also are many reds with a more reasonable number of counts who still not like spending the time to wipe them off.

    The reason why it was after 5 counts that one went red was to allow some margin for mistakes. Now I hear that the argument for introducing pardons is to cover up some more unfortunate kills that may happen, perhaps while playing Factions, who knows.

    Well, if that is the case and not to allow players to freely move from red to blue a go-go (which might have an effect on increasing pkilling) than a MUCH lower drop rate than the current 1 in 3 Maps would still be ok for pardons.

    Occasional means a few. To my understanding that means possibly less than 5 but at worst less than 10. Since 5 counts are covered before going red anyways, all that pardons would need to cover is a few more counts that unfortunately might come.

    For that purpose, IMHO, definately 1 pardon out of 3 treasure Maps is way, but really way too common a drop.



    Possibly, but why risk making bad changes to the game when it then might be too late to revert ?

    Why not, instead, slowly introduce pardons into the game, given their potential bad effects on pkilling and initially have them at a VERY low drop rate and then, over time, perhaps when Factions changes come, adjust the drop rate accordingly ?

    I mean, why make drastic changes that might have unforeseen effects bad for the game when, instead, they can be done a little at a time, slowly over time closely monitoring the effects so as to prevent harm to the game be done inadvertedly ?
     
  14. I'm having a hard time coming down on one side of this argument or the other.

    I really don't have any sympathy for people who say they had no choice to go red because they were "defending the spawn" or turned red because of factions or they were provoked. You did have a choice and you chose to make the kill.

    However, I do think it's reasonable that they have a system to work off the murder counts - after all, it's a game. But it shouldn't be easy. We will have to wait and see how easy it really is to drop murder counts.

    I do think there should he a restriction on the number of pardons that can be used, such as one per day. Is there anything like this in effect?
     
  15. Gellor

    Gellor Guest

    More appropriately would be SOME. And usually, it is the same SOME who want private champ spawns. Last time this argument came up, I think more than a few said "I went red because I was helping defend MY champ spawn.

    I'm not sure I'm amused with "how easy" it is to get the forged pardons... but at least it is something that requires work and isn't just "pay 500k per murder count". I'd still like to see gold involved in it along with a limit to the number that can be used per day. Say 3 per character per day.
     
  16. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Not all players have asked for it.

    PK players have asked for it.

    That'd mean taking sides by definition.

    -Galen's player
     
  17. Nastia Cross

    Nastia Cross Guest

    And PK and PVP players are paying for their accounts as well. They're not second-class citizens because of their game style choices.
     
  18. As a person who enjoys killing other players, I don't necessarily care for this item either. I suppose when you consider that half of the PvP population spends half of their time burning off counts because they need to play with the toys in Trammel, it makes sense. Why not give them a means to remove those counts without camping the bank for 40 hours.

    I do, however, agree with the idea that there should be a penalty for their use. It's the same penalty I think faction stat loss should incur. 50% loss of all skills and stats for 20 minutes. During this time, no skill can be gained and you can't enhance your skills with any items. You are dead, essentially, like it was designed to be.
     
  19. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Pkers should be because their game style choice drives other players away.
     
  20. Nastia Cross

    Nastia Cross Guest

    I agree with this penalty for the player using the Forged Pardon. I would even go further to say that a player should only be able to use one a day, thus dropping the wait time from 40 hours to 24 and avoiding any "griefing" that many of the opposed parties are worried about.
     
  21. Nastia Cross

    Nastia Cross Guest

    There, I fixed it for you.
     
  22. Do you seriously believe this??? I'll agree with you that those PKs who grief do contribute to the lack of quality in the game, but you have to admit that there are more griefers in Trammel. Why? They can get away with it.

    I PK as a roleplayer. If I kill you, I will suck off your life force with Spirit Speak, cackle, and leave your corpse there to rot. Is this not what felucca was meant for?

    If you don't want to get killed, you don't belong in Felucca.
     
  23. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    There, I fixed your "fix" for you.
     
  24. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Yes, I believe this.

    So you're a roleplaying PKer? Then accept, as roleplay in a "roleplaying game", a working justice system in a world where "good" people have a system of justice to make society work.
     
  25. Nastia Cross

    Nastia Cross Guest

    Trebr, so you can get killed by players in Felucca. That is how its always been. You can also get killed by monsters. Should we complain about them next?
     
  26. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    By the way, you mentioned griefers in Trammel. I agree on that part. I've proposed a working justice system many times in the past. One that allows for players to take care of griefers, while also allows for you to roleplay your way a few times a week, but allows players to also seek justice against the more rampant PKers and thieves and punish them to preserve their rights to life and ownership. But no one wants my solution. Everyone wants one extreme or another. So they all, me included, get to suck on this divide.

    And to Nastia Cross, it's not nearly that simple.
     
  27. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Murdering is not PvP. Factions has failed. Order and Chaos was the best.

    Discuss ;P
     
  28. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    so, this is the age-old "I have to buy powerscrolls, it's so unfair" thing sitting at the heart of it.
    Not that it wasn't already apparent, but I'm glad you lampshaded that.
    Now, it's unnecessary to argue the point with you, because your arguement stems from your own microcosmic view of the game.
     
  29. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    Sigh, this silly statement was relevent 8 years ago. Those players that are left in this game have accepted the game for what it is. There are 5 out of the 5 facets to play a blue char and one to play a red. There are hundreds of ways to earn gold to pay for a powerscroll and many players who have done so.

    "Pkers should be because their game style choice drives other players away FROM FELUCCA, WHERE TRAMMIES MUST GO FOR POWERSCROLLS AND STAT SCROLLS OR ELSE PAY THROUGH THE NOSE FOR THEM FOR THESE NEEDED ITEMS, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

    There, I fixed it for you." We all did just fine back in the day with 100 skill points, I'm sure you could just the same but you insist on having the uber skill then you have to pay the piper.

    PK's of the old days are long since gone and the only ones you will see today are the same few you will see at the gate. Join up in the PvP and you will see the same 15-30 people every day, its not scary and we don't need to be bashed with your hammer.

    On my shard there is a very decent tram based guild who spawns all they want. They fight, defend and win/lose but never shy from coming. Respected because they don't complain when they lose and don't brag when they win, good folk IMO. Better than most of the board warriors you see here.
     
  30. Perfectly fine by me. If the devs said tomorrow that all PKs would suffer 50% stat loss for 30 minutes it wouldn't bother me. I think faction stat loss should be far better as well...none of this "I put items on so I can continue in stat loss"
     
  31. Nastia Cross

    Nastia Cross Guest

    Thanks for that. Even after the devs gave players a way to completely avoid Fel (via the ability to combine all powerscrolls), people are still complaining about it. Yes, I know you can't get stat scrolls outside of Felucca but those are the breaks. Many shards have PvP guilds who host public harrowers so players who avoid Felucca can come and have a shot at it, protected by those players they would normally be afraid of.

    With a few tweaks to the Forged Pardons like those I and others have mentioned above (one a day, stat and skill loss for 20mins, etc), they won't be a tool of griefers. They'll be a legit way to burn counts without having to take up server space which will cut down on lag, a good thing for everyone.
     
  32. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Statloss? Ghost? Huh?

    It's pretty simple to me, if someone murders again shortly after using pardons, give that player their original murder count +1 back. My original idea was 40 real time hours after one use, with a 1 hour cooldown between uses of pardons.

    So Player A has 4 murder counts. He uses a pardon, doesn't kill anyone after 40 real time hours, and now he has 2 murder counts.

    Player B has 4 murder counts. He uses four pardons, one every hour for four hours due to cooldown, but he kills someone within 40 real time hours of using the first pardon, and now he has 5 murder counts.

    Player C has 5,000 murder counts. He uses ten pardons (one every hour for ten hours) a day and becomes blue in 500 days instead of 8,333 days.
     
  33. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    No, I'm looking at the game as a whole. It's hardly a "microscopic" view. If anything, it's your view that's a microcosm for Fel. And then separately for Trammel maybe.
     
  34. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    1) Real PKs are proud of their color. They're not going to use them.

    2) Even if they do use them . . . so? They can't hurt you in tram.

    3) Response: but the count is a punishment. Counter: so they kill you on their red, then use their blue alts in tram or positive karma situations. Not a real punishment.

    4) Conclusion: only folks affected are the ones who kill the occasional miner. Big deal.

    Therefore, etc. Dry up.
     
  35. PASmountaindew

    PASmountaindew Babbling Loonie
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    I posted this in a different thread but it should be here also...

    Since felluca players corner the market on Power Scrolls then I like the idea of having the pardons only spawn in trammel rule set treasure chests. Let the trammel players corner the market on the pardons. Then we can set the market price as high as most of the high priced power scrolls that we want.
     
  36. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    Why do people hate being PK'd, anyway? Unless you're a PvPer, I guarantee that you die much more often to mobs. (PvPers are used to being killed by other players).

    So, the PK looted your aids. Lots of mobs do the same thing. The sky is not falling.

    You've got insurance, you've got five non-felucca facets, you die hundreds of times to boss mobs . . . why are you so afraid of reds?

    *Totally baffled*
     
  37. Why do PK's want to kill miners? So you steal their band aids, and get a little insurance money. Is THAT what get's your thrill when you PK? If you really don't understand why non-PvPers don't like to be PK'd, then you've got social issues. Some people just don't want to be the target of your chest-thumping.
     
  38. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    1) I'm not a PK. Not even a PvPer.

    2) Real PKs aren't out looking for miners - they're out looking for a challenge. Kind of how a PvMers aren't out looking for mongbats.
     
  39. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    3) Miners die from both PCs and NPCs in this virtual world. If you get upset when a player kills you, you might reconsider which of us has social issues.
     
  40. Budwieser

    Budwieser Guest

    OMG are you serious? I have witnessed the ANTI SOCIAL blue players in fel that have needed to be pk'd. I have red and blue players. The pardons for me will be used to take a spawner out of red by one count at most. People who play pk chars won't use these items for those players. Good god, is everyone this stupid today? It would take a few thousand pardons to take my main red chars blue, as i'm sure it would for most pkr's, so relax! Your sheriff won't leave you carebear.
     
  41. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Well, I think it is necessary to look at the wider picture.

    Having exclusive access to items highly wanted, whatever the reasons means sitting on a mountain of wealth.

    In an item based game where modifiers and their intensities make the difference in who wins what fights, sitting over a mountain of wealth decided who can have the best items and gear and thus, win most fights, always...

    Multiply this over years upon years upon years and you get the PvP game, to my opinion, totally screwed up and unbalanced with some players just having it all to win all fights and the rest of players unable to be of a real challenge.

    Sure, recently imbuing and faction items have introduced a change to this but it has been let to drag on for too many years and already has caused much harm to the game, as I see it.

    On one side we got players bored with the game which has become too easy for them (since thanking to their wealth they can afford everything and all exclusive items and thus win fights most times) and on the other side, instead, we get players struggling to catch up with some at some point giving up, and moving onto other games.

    I am sorry, but "baits" (or "reasons" to enter PvP facets) is not the way to promote PvP in UO. A more balanced and levelled out PvP with open ended fights is what I think this game needs to promote challenging, thrilling and fun playing PvP for everyone.
     
  42. J.B.

    J.B. Journeyman
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    great not only do i have to watch out for reds but now i have to watch out for blues.
     
  43. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I like the idea that pardons should be intended as a fix to a kill done inadvertedly, not really a way to deal with other kills on a regular basis. More of like in case of killing mistakes.

    Therefore, if one kills again after using up a pardon they get the count back (for the new kill just done) plus an additional one from the pardon just used being reversed and, I say, add also a third count as a penalty for not watching out pkilling more.

    If one wants to be a murderer then they need to go red. Blues should not kill other blues. Occasional accidents should be dealt with either the 40 hours timer or pardons but not be a way to more easily and fastly wipe counts off.

    At least that is my view of it.
     
  44. Gowron

    Gowron Guest

    I agree with what you say, but I also believe that certain choices incur consequences that may not be favorable.

    I'm no fan of PK'rs, and I have made no secret of my stance. Yes, it is a playstyle. Yes, they pay for their accounts as well, except for certain bedwetters who probably have mommy pay for them, and they know who they are...(I couldn't pass up that dig on a couple individuals)

    However, in the spirit of fairness, I'm not too upset about this addition. Here are some factors that I would like to be considered. (Why knows, they probably already have)...

    forged pardons should be rare and only usable once every x number of days.
    forged pardons should only impact short term counts and NOT long term counts.
     
  45. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I wonder, but REALLY wonder, out of the many PvP fights that go on on Felucca facets on all shards how many REALLY are challenging and how many are just a one way fight with the end result already predictable........

    I hear the word "challenge" being brought up so often, but really, I hardly see fights which can be called challenging for BOTH parties, equally, confronting each other.

    Until PvP fights' dynamics really are changed into fights which are OPEN ENDED, meaning that either party, regardless from their wealth and sported weaponry/gear can equally win (battle strategy and tactics and some luck only being the determining factors), I do not think the word "challenge" can be used much when talking about PvP in UO.....
     
  46. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Exactly.

    This is why pardons are not a good idea. At least not with the current drop rate.
     
  47. Gowron

    Gowron Guest

    PvP players look for challenges

    PK players look for easy kills

    Of course a PvP player can PK as well as a PK may be able to PvP.

    If I PK, it is because I caught a scripter, or at least had reasonable suspicion.
     
  48. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Ok, here's an idea. Every time you use a forged pardon, there's a small chance you'll get caught passing it off. When that happens a large contingent of guards shows up, and you get carted off and hung somewhere public. :)
     
  49. Borric

    Borric Seasoned Veteran
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    Yes, they pay to play. They also knew the consequences of murder.
     
  50. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    Sounds fair to me, but gl convincing these guys.
     
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