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Freedom of speech and "Separation between Church and State" takes a hit

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Hunters' Moon, May 31, 2012.

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  1. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    A pastor in the US is sentenced to two years for preaching that it is right for a parent to spank their children as a form of punishment. And here it starts. The government will start putting their nose where it doesn't belong. Trying to tell people what they can and can't teach from the Bible. What's next? Maybe they will say the pastors can't preach the 10 Commandments,or the Sermon on the Mount,as it is too judgmental and "hateful"? Give me a break...

     
  2. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Inquisitor
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    Don't you know the only folks without rights, and can FREELY be bashed without them sticking the "hate crime" crap on it, are the Christians? It will only get worse tho, has too according to whats written..... I'm ready. You?
     
  3. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    Ready or not,it'll happen. I see this case and others as a way to test the waters on what they,the government,can get away with.It is too choreographed to not be planned.
     
  4. RhyssaFireheart

    RhyssaFireheart Visitor

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    Did you read the source article though? There's a difference between censoring free speech and between charging someone with advocating child abuse.

    While I agree that spanking isn't the Great Evil that some seem to think it is, telling people to us wooden spoons on children under a year old is not free speech, not really. Although, 2 years is excessive for this case. Probation should have been enough, but people get crazy when it's "for teh childrun!"
     
  5. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Inquisitor
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    What's bad with a wooden spoon? A wooden spoon has more give to it than {and can't be swung as hard as} my hand. He who spares the rod hates his son, Prov. 13:24. I know newer versions of The Bible water it down to "If you do not punish your children, you do not love them" NCV, and water down the word of God to meet society's touchy feely way of life {which is 100% incorrect to do - but that is another spiel and rant lol}

    Spare the rod and spoil the child. What if he had said use exactly that? Should he still have been found guilty of a crime? No, not in the USA. Keep in mind here in the States, one religion and major leader of it is free from prosecution of spewing hatred and wanting the death of Christians. But let a Christian tell his flock to discipline their kids with a wooden spoon.... and it's time for the handcuffs.
     
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  6. Cirno

    Cirno Purple Pony Princess
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    I don't understand the need to hit a child with anything.
    It seems a lot more like a parenting crutch than a decent solution to anything.
     
  7. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Inquisitor
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    I can understand that point of view. After all, ALOT of folks hold to it. In raising my 2 it was always something held as a very LAST resort, after all other options failed. I think one of the reasons our society is so far gone is due to people stepping away from that form of punishment. Parents all too often cave in the the whinings of their toddler, child because it is the easy way out. It requires no time, no effort. Just cave in, give them what they want, let them do what they want. IMHO.... that is what leads to the mentality we all see too often on the boards.... The "I want it all and I demand it NOW!!" type personality.

    If more butts had been busted in their earlier years society, at least in the states, would be a heckuva lot better off.
     
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  8. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    When I was a kid,I would have rather have gotten a spanking with a wooden spoon that weighs less than a half-pound than a paddle that the principle of the grade school used when I was there. This paddle had to have been about five pounds and about 3 feet long. But that's besides the point I want to make here.
    This ruling has a lot of "reach" to it outside trying to determine if a spanking with a wooden spoon is actually child abuse. BTW liberals think all spanking is child abuse,but that's a different thread altogether. My issue is censorship from the government. They,the government, do not want Church in their State,but they see no problem when it comes to pushing State into the Church. If they truely want "Separation of Church and State" then the government needs to know that it isn't a one-way street. They need to stay out of the pulpit.
     
  9. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    There are times when sending a kid to their room isn't good enough. Society today has spanking and child abuse so confused. A couple of swats with a hand or a paddle is not even close to the same as physically beating a child with the intent to injure. There is a vast difference.
     
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  10. Magdalene

    Magdalene Stratics Legend
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    The states (not just the USA) are also against religions preaching polygamy, child brides, female circumcision, blood sacrifices (not to mention human sacrifices) and the like, and these things are prohibited by law(s) in most civilized countries - you seem to be fine with that, right?
    So why spanking children is so important for you? Where do you draw the line between biblical, especially Old Testament, things and modern law?
    If you read into Old Testament you will find many interesting things - fathers killing their sons, kings taking 700 wifes/concubines and the like. I would like to believe we'd come a long way in the last 2-3k years, wouldn't you?

    Very realistically - physical punishment may be necessary in some cases, probably. But one thing is a parent taking an individual decision, as last reasort, and quite another is a preacher encouraging, validating, justifying spanking of children in general.
     
  11. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    You are comparing apples and oranges here. I am talking about correcting a child by spanking them,not blood sacrifices.


    It is a parents right to correct their child as they see fit. I do not advocate beating or abusing a child,but spankings are most times needed to "get their attention". Have you ever tried to calmly talk to a screaming three year old that is throwing a tantrum? Good luck with that. My main issue with what the government did that it overstepped its authority here. Separation of Church and State goes both ways.The government needs to stay out of the pulpit.

    Take a look at the stories you referenced here and see that yes,there were kings that took 700 wives and how in the end,many lost their kingdoms, or were killed Caesar style. Very rarely does it come to a "happy ending".Yes we have come along way in 3k years but in many ways,it has been in the wrong direction.

    So where is that line drawn in which the over-reaching government can decide what can and can not be preached in the pulpit? Do I stop preaching that it is wrong that a man sleeps with another man's wife because that might "offend" some people? How about "Thou shalt not kill"? Maybe that's too judgmental and would bruise the self esteem of the murderer. As a christian,I am not here to coddle anyone and say that "All is just fine. Don't worry about it." That is one thing that greater majority of people don't like. They hate being challenged on how they live. So they will attempt to silence the source. This is the main gripe I have with this ruling. Because it has become an official government action.[/quote][/quote]
     
  12. RhyssaFireheart

    RhyssaFireheart Visitor

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    But it's not comparing apples to oranges at all. The original question about about government infringing on religious freedoms, specifically the freedom of speech and Magdelene pointed out that there are multiple other religious messages that are forbidden and/or not allowed, but yet you have no issues with those restrictions on free speech. It's not free speech to only hear what you want to hear. It's free speech, period. And yet there are restrictions on what can be said and where and most seem to have no problems with those cases because for the most part, it's common sense.

    Yes, it is the parent's right to correct their children, too bad most don't do it on a regular basis. That being said, the preacher in the original story advocated using a wooden spoon on children under a year old. That isn't correcting your child, that is abuse. And don't say wooden spoons are that big a deal, my mother used them on my brothers and me growing up and still (jokingly) threatens us with spoons to this day. However, we weren't infants and it wasn't done in lieu of other options. Smacking a crying 3-year old on the butt once with your hand is correcting. Doing so multiple times veers into abuse territory.

    Separation of Church and State does go both ways, so try reminding so many pastors, preachers, priests and other religious about that fact when they are proclaiming who is the better candidate to vote for, or which referendums need to be supported, or other political leanings.

    Wrong direction? How so?

    No, as a Christian you're here to turn the other cheek. Isn't that Jesus' teachings? His coming signaled the repeal and reformation of the more tyrannical OT laws set down by His Father. The laws and teachings of Jesus as described in the NT are the ones His followers are to believe in and follow.

    Something I saw in a video once - "Did you ever notice how the guy who wants to tell you all about his religious beliefs never wants to hear about yours?"
     
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  13. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    @ Rhyssa

    It is my obligation to turn the other cheek when I am personally insulted or attacked. I have no such obligation to abandon my faith and morals for the benefit of those that have neither.
     
  14. Cirno

    Cirno Purple Pony Princess
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    I think now's the time to suggest that horses be cooled and jets be held.

    From my woefully long stint as a publican (in the bringer-of-beer sense), I learned several valuable lessons.
    One of which was regarding topics of discussion, and the recommended moratorium on Politics, Religion and (anecdotally) Spouses.
    These are two subjects (the third is often stated, but seldom applies) which are almost guaranteed to end badly.
    People from different backgrounds aren't going to agree, and rarely are they going to accept that they mightn't be right. And so disagreeing views on things that form the backbone of a person's outlook on the world will be shared, and it's all downhill from there.

    So, here I am, being a moderator, quoting someone else:
    "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference."​
    You simply cannot change a person's faith, or political leanings, if they follow them strongly enough to put them out for all to see.
    So, how about we all give the serenity thing a try.
     
  15. Magdalene

    Magdalene Stratics Legend
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    Thanks Rhyssa for explaining it for me :)
     
  16. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    I just thought to tag this on at the end. It is a direct quote from Constitution that governs(or should govern) all other laws in the US

    Those that wish to silence those that they disagree with love to quote half the sentence. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." and that's where their quote stops.

     
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