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Gargoyles are too weak!

Discussion in 'UHall' started by lucitus, Oct 12, 2009.

  1. lucitus

    lucitus UOEC Modder
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    Really what should i play a gargoyle, i have really tried it, to get armor for it but...

    It should be for PvM to slay Monsters:

    But the problem is how should i get full HCI and DCI? I have tried to alter a Fey Leggins not possible, Leggins of Bane is also not possible, Orc Chief Helm not possible. 2 Slots Ring and Brace 30 Hci and Dci maximum, but this is nothing compared to a human! No glasses with HLD, no glasses and hats at all!

    And on Weapon i need HLD because of the low HCI, but i also need leeches and damage increase and on armor is HCI DCI not possible.

    Other disadvantages are no quievers lost of 5 dci, no sash lost of 2 mr and 5 int, no swampdragon lost of 20% damage reduction, lost of jack of all trades or mana incr > more mana cost no goodie for that.


    At the end i come to the conclusion, Gargoyles are no playable race, because of this i have never seen any gargoyle in PvP or PvM.
     
  2. Vyal

    Vyal Guest

    Gargoyles are terribad I deleted mine the other day talk about a waste.

    There is no items, your only option is to use imbued armor and really whos going to do that.....
     
  3. Myna

    Myna Guest

    me ... imbued armor is not like imbued weapons ... it lasts for years


    but yes, the lack of items is really a pain, but i see lots of gargoyles pvm ...

    i wouldnt say they are not playable but i agree they have only disadvantages ..... the imbuing bonus is pffff and throwing is useless

    i like the SA expansion and the dev did a great job imho, but they really sucked creating the gargoyle race
     
  4. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    but you dont like to be huge and fly? :D
    and hey you can swing and cast faster 10 points before to die! :D

    gargoyles are the proletarians race... maybe they are strong with a hammer and a forge, but they are not warriors and neither mages... in fact they are all refugees :D
     
  5. Tay M'real

    Tay M'real Guest

    this would've been easier to implement back pre-AoS
     
  6. Harb

    Harb Guest

    I agree and disagree, strongly both ways :) It does appear that a point of emphasis for this introduction was not to overpower anything, which really can't be faulted I suppose based upon past experiences.

    Imbuing is a wonderful addition, but you don't need a gargoyle for it. My only real "beef" with imbuing is that if you weigh properties going onto an item, you really ought to use the same weights for unraveling. As is, the system itself is disadvantageous.

    Mysticim is a nice spell set, compact but decent "range," useful but without anything overpowering. Sure some complained in other threads about cleansing wounds, who probably have observed affects, but not used it themselves, and others complain rising colossus is a bit much, without regard to the very short duration and easy dispel they suffer from. All in all, very well done, yet again you don't need a gargoyle for it.

    Throwing, more to your point as it requires a gargoyle character, is currently hard to "love." The drive toward an optimal range is probably a good idea conceptually, but in any form of play other than a group PvM very difficult to attain and maintain against anything more than a mongbat. The limitations need review. I've tried mine in two major variants, as a melee/ range character, and as a caster/ range thrower. I went the latter route first, going with 120 throwing, 120 eval, 120 mysticism, 100 imbuing, 100 tactics, 100 anatomy, 60 chiv + jewelry. You can cast either colossus or animated weapon and begin your tossing, so once you have the optimal range, it’s a little easier to maintain. Where it gets rough is trying to get strength (it takes 140 str to attain max range for weapons, and 120 to lose only one tile), stam/ dex to 120 so you’re not a slow-motion “dexxer,” and if casting is a way of life, as much mana/ int as you can muster. It’s a challenge, even with imbued clothing. There’s also the troubling effect of the DCI penalty, as that mongbat I mentioned earlier hits you every single swing, and the penalty is so excessive I couldn’t find a way to offset it. After noting on UOGuide that you could offset penalties with swords and parry, I tried a different route, where I still am today. 120 throwing, 120 swords, 120 parry, 100 tact, 100 anat, 100 heal, 60 chiv + jewelry. The range penalties suddenly weren’t “as” bad, I could manage stat requirements, and playing the character had a “better feel” to it. But again there’s a major downside, even with 120 parry, you cannot parry a single incoming blow, and the DCI problems are still overwhelming. It can be fixed, I’d recommend maintaining the concept of an optimal range in a lesser penalized method and would maintain the current str requirements, but would lower significantly the DCI penalty and enable parry to actually parry if the skill is present. As it stands now, throwing and the gargoyle requirement associated to it so far as I can tell is a failure. I worked the character hard for a month, but the poor guy is probably forever retired unless something significant changes.

    As for gargoyle only items, it seems to me somebody did a pretty good job of working the spreadsheet for the items to ensure both balance and desirability, when taken as a whole and assuming we’ve seen at least most of what’s out there for now. The troubles in my mind are twofold, first you can make a pretty good gargoyle character, you just can’t make one that “rocks.” So the question for a player becomes, why change from a character who can rock to one who can’t. Second, while I can get decent gear for my three gargoyles, the only thing I can’t get close to is “luck,” that pesky little thing required to attain relic frags. I’d add a fancy gargoyle robe in a hurry, with 300 luck, HPR 2, HPI 5, and DCI 5. Whatever they do, something with lots of luck is needed ASAP, and if the item doesn’t really “rock,” well, an otherwise great publish may get reviewed and accepted as mediocre (client aside).

    I made 3 gargoyles, and really like the mystic/ imbuer/ mage. Factually as is though, it would have been even better off left as an elf based on items. My thrower is already quasi-retired, and the threads in the warrior forums here indicate nobody is very enthused or optimistic about them. The third was a tamer who I’m reasonably satisfied with, it is nice to be able to move quicker via flying with a greater in tow, but the luck limiting factor (he is stuck literally 1000 points below one of his human counterparts). But let’s face it, having a gargoyle flying tamer, the only character I’ve been able to determine has any advantage whatsoever over the other two races, really shouldn’t be all a new race is about!
     
  7. Harb

    Harb Guest

    I'm not so sure it'll last long at all. I'm playing a set on a mage, and it's going down quickly. Losing durability both to minor swipes and cast spells, and losing it fast even since the last publish. Even though I max PoFed prior to imbuing, we all know every time you repair, a point is gone forever. If an upcoimng publish doesn't address rate of decline or ease of repairs and you play the character/ items frequently, it won't last a year even at 255.
     
  8. lucitus

    lucitus UOEC Modder
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    Lets not talk about a PVM who can play with demons, lets talk about a high end pvm char. And the gargoyle equal which template can reach with the best imbued euqipment only 70 - 80% of a human or elf.

    and i dont discuss it here because i dont like the gargoyles, i like them but you cannot play them, if you want a really nice character.
     
  9. Cyrah

    Cyrah Lore Keeper
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    I agree they are just goofy. I so looked forward to being one. Guess someone who could made them weak.

    What replaces Swords of Prosperity? Is there a weapon like it with -0 magery for gargy mages? Have I missed it?

    The list goes on an on... why did you guys create them so cheesy?

    Flying is fun, auto somersault is fun and how I can pop across a room is interesting.
     
  10. maroite

    maroite Guest

    I can't help but agree that the gargoyles seem very... underpowered even with imbued items.

    No shoes, no apron, no sash, no gloves, no helm, no cloak. To replace these we get a kilt and earrings.

    Beserking? Worthless. Who wants a skill that makes you take MORE damage when you're already low on health? Doesn't help caster builds at all, as who is going to run around with 1 less faster casting as a mage/necro just to get low health so they can get their bonus? No one. Does this extra FC stack past the 2/6? I don't think it does.

    Throwing - Shields are HUGE for gargoyles who are already lacking extremely in item slots. Not being able to use a shield with throwing is a huge drawback.
     
  11. Rocklin

    Rocklin Guest

    I think the simple solution would have been to select items or skills in the game that focus on the history of what we have been told about gargoyles so far. That history says they are master craftsmen. With the discovery of Ver Lor Reg in Ilshenar, we gained the knowledge of Stone Crafting and Glass Blowing.

    It would seem to me that Mythic would have followed the crafting line, and given the gargoyles +10% craft skill, perhaps +5% gathering as well. In this way, a player could have had an "out of the box" gargoyle that wouldn't need exceptional items to be competitive. If a player wanted to advance a Warrior gargoyle for example, then they would face a harder challenge, but at least one area of the game would have seen tangible benefit to gargoyles.

    Another way would have been to add a "gargoyle only" crafting skill item. A +5% apron for smithy or woodworking. Again focusing on crafting this would have set them apart.

    As it is right now, items are too difficult to find and set up. Certain slots are not available to the gargoyle now either. And the final nail in the coffin is that humans still make the best general crafters. All these add to a new race that is great in principle but lacking in function.
     
  12. ACB1961

    ACB1961 Lore Keeper
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    I made a new character. Then I ran his imbuing up to 120 and his mystic to 100. I made him a really nice suit of armor, got him 100 magery, med eval and proceeded in 3 hours to be noble so I could use the Queen's Forge. The next night in 2 more hours he was a Lord. Now, sure killing Ice Fiends with 0 resist is an acquired skill. I don't advise it, but those Rising Collussus's are great at that level. It's just 106 in all its skills, but it will kill 4.5 toxic sliths, or 2 Ice Fiends without fail.

    Its not so much the character as the person playing the character.

    Now, I don't want to have to fight actual people with this thing, but otherwise they aren't too bad.
     
  13. Pawain

    Pawain Crazed Zealot
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    You are using a rising colossus. You are not using a gargoyle. I also have not seen a gargoyle in a PvM battle.

    What is the strongest thing that someone has killed with throwing or melee using a gargoyle?
     
  14. Gelf

    Gelf Guest

    hmm not 100% sure, but i do believe they nerfed the resists on rising colosus with last pub. at least they're lower than when i tried them during open beta(except poison that was still the same,when i checked on test)
     
  15. Astrel

    Astrel Guest

    My thrower char has killed the daemon spawns in the abyss np, and picked up around 6 AF, but he is not as powerful as my mystic/mage. As for armor, some of the pieces made with a horned runic are impressive, 97 resists on one piece, so no need to imbue stuff.
     
  16. maroite

    maroite Guest

    Yeah if all you want is resists. . .:thumbdown:

    You can play a gargoyle, but to be on par with an elf or human, you have to power play or know a really nice 120 imbuer and be rich/have all the mats.

    Even then gargoyles are lacking in useful arties, item slots, and abilities.

    Like I said, beserking is useless. :thumbdown:

    Did you mean citizen and then noble? Last I heard there was no "lord" title.
     
  17. KalVasTENKI

    KalVasTENKI Babbling Loonie
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    I've literally only seen one Gargoyle in Fel and he was alright , but they defiantly don't seem like they really hurt anything or anybody for that matter.
     
  18. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Been saying it from day one. If you can't have EVERY human/elf item convertible in some way or some other readily available replacement, then gargs will fail forever.
     
  19. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    That's part of .
    When ML came along, elves could wear all the human kit of an established character if you switched, or otherwise there was a wealth of stuff available. So you could do exactly what you were before, and hug trees.

    It's too early to really compare gargoyles, because they (and the relative PvM drops) haven't been around long enough to make them readily available enough that everyone can develop a good template.
    Human and elf equipment is everywhere, while gargoyle equipment isn't. So they're obviously not going too be as strong a race to play, at the moment.

    Apparently, they didn't show as significantly enough underpowered in beta to warrant a rebalance.
     
  20. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    really is from the beta that they are the crap race... they have nothing good if not for an imbuer...

    less layers
    no night sight
    no artifacts (the existing one are low level one... can be compared to paragon arties)
    no real skill bonus (mystic + throwing + imbuing worth nothing compared to joat)
    no stat bonus
    no resistances bonus

    devs in the interviews says: they are huge and can fly.
    to be huge worth nothing, and the fly ability is not enough.

    we have to say that gargoyles would be the best banksitter of ever because their equipment looks very nice XD
     
  21. lucitus

    lucitus UOEC Modder
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    correct point, the problem is that the jewelery slots necklace and earrings get removed and replaced with armor slots, if there were 4 instead of 2 jewlery slots i would say they are able to be nice, but now all they can do is imbuing and enhancing.

    also throwing is the last skill i would train, 1. there are rules which are correct but not appeared to archery, so why should i train a skill which is more crapy than another 2. there are 3 throwing weapons instead of 10 archery weapons 3. no equipment for this char because of the need of a gargoyle.

    The bad thing is imbuing is better for elfs and humans than for gargoyles, instead of giving gargoyle armor better imbuing abilities HCI DCI or other mods, you can now make a perfect human or elf character, that is really nice! I love it now older templates are also intersting and really playable, but the Devs should a bit consider the gargoyles in making them a bit more powerfull.
     
  22. ACB1961

    ACB1961 Lore Keeper
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    I wasn't talking about throwing at all. However, you can't say don't use a Rising Collossus, that's one of the things gargoyle mages do. If I stone some resist over I can kill anything with garg I can kill with anyone else. Make sure you have a suit with 2 fc 6 fcr, 7-10 mr, and 6 sr thats 100% lrc and close to all 70s in resists.

    The hardest things I've seen killed with throwing were rotting corpses, and silver serpents. The whole time I was watching it I was thinking "man, what a bad skill". It was cool to watch, but it was incredibly slow.