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General question for our community about cheaters

Discussion in 'UO Catskills' started by Giggles, May 26, 2010.

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  1. Giggles

    Giggles Forum Administrator
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    So after reading this glorious thing called global chat, as well as many personal experiences.. I have a simple question to ask and discuss.. I don't believe it is against the roc, and its not a troll of any type.. Just something I have been wondering for a very long time.

    So to begin, I was taught something valuable as a child.. and that was my grandpa looking at me saying.. "Its OK in life to not be the best and to fail and lose.. Don't be so hard on yourself when it happens.. There will ALWAYS be someone better.. There will ALWAYS be someone faster... and there will ALWAYS be someone with more experience. You just need to learn to accept this, and you will feel better when you do fail.

    So I often times remember this little teaching through my life, and also in this silly game. But the problem with the game is... If anyone is better, faster, greater, or more experienced at something then yourself it means they cheat? Really?

    I'm not going to be one to sit here and act like cheats aren't real.. I know they are, and I know some use them, but I also know of a lot of people who don't and yet they are constantly accused of it. I am also dumped in that statement.. I do not use cheats to assist me with my hobby of IDOCing, I do not have some fast placer program, or a program to allow me to grab all the cool loot... or some magical website that lists all of the falling houses.. I have put 9+ years into idocing, that's A LOT of time and practice.. and now I find myself being called a "cheater" and "slithery" and a "scriptor" constantly just because me and my crew are good at what we do.

    So my main point and question is why do people always feel the need to always accuse someone who's better then them at what they do a cheater? What is the purpose other then to make yourself fell less inadequate, or to ruin someones reputation and hard work and practice?

    I really am curious. I am not trying to cause drama or damage our community.. I just feel it should in some way be brought out in the open since its something we see in game daily. And its something making the game a lot less fun for some of us.

    Discuss?

    :popcorn:
     
  2. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    The issue lies in the fact that "John Doe" will tell "Jane Q Public" that XX cheat exists and that "ABC" guild uses it (ABC is arbitrary in this case. IDK of an ABC guild). Jane Q then goes and tells everyone in ventrilo... and rumors start.
    This is taken as fact without question. No real proof is needed, hell John and Jane have been friends for 1200 UO years! John wouldn't lie to Jane! Besides there must be something to it because ABC guild is always faster, better, more organized, etc so they must be using something.


    Like the person who told you your checks were dupes because they were the old school white ones. Being uneducated, or educated by people who don't know the full story/situation/game mechanic is another reason it's so very believable that ABC is cheating..

    Yes, cheats exist. No one questions that, but not everyone who PvPs, makes pots, mines or lumberjacks, or places houses faster, is using them. Not everyone who doesn't answer you when you try to talk to them is afk macroing, maybe they are on the phone or scolding a naughty child. Perhaps they are actually there but also watching their favorite soap opera (or multi tasking in some other way). Let's not forget the new crafting gumps let you "make max" with one click.

    Anyhow, yeah not everyone you think is cheating actually is, not everyone "John Doe" says is running XX program even knows it exists, and, not everyone who is better than you is only better than you at something because they are running some arbitrary program. Perhaps, just maybe, they've been doing it longer than you and they have become really good at it.
     
  3. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    It's just a common issue in mmos. It has always been easy to master npc AI, just find the hole in it and exploit it. But competing against other players who know how to adapt to their weakness...and have the will to overcome them... is a whole different ball game. Then it becomes personal. So the primary drive to wrongfully accuse someone of cheating USUALLY stems from either:

    A. Denial: I'm better at this than anyone else... and that fella beat me... he MUST be cheating.

    or:

    B. Sour Grapes Make Great Whine: I don't like that other person for being better than me. I will accuse them of cheating, page GMs and make things so miserable for them that they go away.

    or both.

    I have found myself on the receiving end of both many times over during my time here. I have been paged on, cursed, given ultimatums and lured on more time than I can remember. Though I push the boundaries of what I would consider fair, I have never been outside the lines of legal game play.

    For a long time I have shied away from the community because of politics like this. Not that it bothers me personally, just that I keep my life pretty hassle free and that's just one thing that I have not felt like dealing with.

    I have watched the community for a long long time however. And honestly it kind of surprises me that such things bother you at all. You have always seemed pretty thick skinned and tough minded to me.
     
  4. Giggles

    Giggles Forum Administrator
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    Well its not so much that it bothers me. In my time in this game I have been called many many things down to names and terms I cannot repeat here. I take it all with a grain of salt because I frankly don't give a damn what people think of me, or my life, or my pictures, or anything about me. What matters to me is what my children and family and friends think of me, not some basement gnome with nothing better to do then insult people.

    I bring it up for the soul purpose of curiosity.. There have been many times I have been beat at pvp or idocs or PvM activity's... and the last thing that has EVER crossed MY mind is "ZOMG YOU CHEATED"( EDIT, *Unless Bishop beats me at something :p *) I just wonder why so many people in our community without proof or knowledge or fact are so quick to throw the "s" word at everyone.

    And I felt it might make for some interesting conversation on our cricket infested board :)
     
  5. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    What's there to discuss?
    I don't call anyone a cheater unless I am certain about it. Nobody should blame people without some kind of proof or at least clear evidence. And nobody should blame people by name in public at all. People who blame others in public will be ignored by me and cost me nothing but an ironic smile.

    I find it interesting that during my last adventures in Felucca I didn't notice anybody using speedhacks anymore. Maybe I just overlooked it or didn't come across the right (wrong) people, but I didn't see it.
    However, using auto-chug-potion scripts seems to be quite common among the PvP community, and I consider that cheating, since an illegal tool is involved, it gives you an unfair advantage, and it makes a skill completely useless. I don't know why people use this script, while they seem to be more contained about speedhacking.

    Anyway, unless EA doesn't take action or efficiently prevents the use of 3rd party tools (I have high hopes for that) this discussion is void, since it won't change the behavior of people a tiniest bit.
     
  6. Zosimus

    Zosimus Grand Inquisitor
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    Since the introduction of General Chat I think (this is my opinion) has done more harm then good for the game. I see accusations of cheating fly more rampant then ever. People don't like to lose so it's easier to accuse others to appease their loss.

    I don't even pvp on Baja anymore since their are more PvP arguments in GC then actual pvp. God forbid if you out run someone then next thing you see is GC wow nice acceleration program you have, nice heal script, ect ect. My computer set up, my cable speed( offically I have a T1 connection since Tuesday morning), combined UO macros and UOA macros to do 2 things at once, and optimizing my net speed and router network for UO contributes to my so called cheating lol. I die just like anybody else in the game but they feel its a significant death to some cheater, which is gratifying in some way to their emotional needs. I believe there are more "ARGUMENTS and ACCUSATIONS" then any action in the game now days lol.

    My advice to you Giggles is to ignore the comments. Dont let others belittle your accomplishments over their petty remarks. There is nothing wrong to improve what you like to do in the game and be the best that you can be. People will always QQ ( thats crying for the ones that is chat lingo/slang impaired) about anything or everything. I gave up trying to understand the psyche of the UO player. It made my own gaming decision so much easier :)


    Once the devs implement the so called cheat program accusations will still fly. Nothing will change. Remember you are not ALLOWED by other players to be better then them. You suck and they are leet sauce. People just avoid the emotional e-drama or you will be face palming all day :p It works trust me. lol I only face palm once in a great while when a certain person interferes and Im not allowed to discuss here on these forums. Its none of you all so Im squelching the e-paranoid and e-drama before it begins :p.

    *HI5*
     
  7. Giggles

    Giggles Forum Administrator
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    I do understand what you are saying, HOWEVER please allow me to be the devils advocate for a moment.

    You state that you do not call anyone a cheater unless you can be certain of it. Well for one in all my years of UO the only time I can honestly say I was certain of it was in regards to a speeder. When I have no lag and someone on foot is outrunning me while I'm mounted. That is just a wee bit obvious since normal game mechanics would not allow for that to happen.

    Now you also speak of the use of pot chugging programs.. Well did you know, that a good player with fast reflexes and experience can use macros to chug/heal and cast a spell almost instantly and much faster then any script that's made for it.

    So in this lies my point. How in-fact do you KNOW they are cheating. Without being a GM with uber GM powers... it is only an assumption. Perhaps it is a educated assumption, but an assumption none the less. You in-fact do not or can not KNOW that they are cheating (again speeders are different in SOME scenarios).

    Then in regards to your second point, that you don't agree with people openly bashing others about it.. well I agree also.

    This again has nothing to do with me personally. I do not care what I am called or what people say about me. I'm am just speaking in regards to our community as a whole. I think there are a lot of people getting downright obsessed and cruel in regards to the idea that someone cheats. And I'm not picking out one specific group. its random people DAILY throwing "s" this and "s" that. I'm wondering why this is becoming so out of control.
     
  8. Zosimus

    Zosimus Grand Inquisitor
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    To help prove Giggles point about pots and others thinking you may be pot scripting. PM me and Ill show you if you dont know how to combine a spell/disarm/skill macro and pot macro with one key as long as you have UOA
     
  9. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    That's why I never call anyone a cheater in public. Because you never know for a 100%.

    However, let me say that I am an assassin in game since 1998. If I poison someone during a fight, I agree that a player with a nifty macro and good reflexes can chug a cure very fast. Maybe even faster than a script. But let's be realistic: In a complex battle situation there's more happening than just being poisoned. You get disarmed, dismounted, have to coordinate special moves, have to apply bandages at exactly the right moment etc. etc. I would say that even the most skilled PvPer with the best reflexes cannot INSTANTLY cure any poison inflicted to him ALL THE TIME. This is impossible. He occasionally will have a 3 second or longer delay, because his enemy keeps him very busy.

    That being said, most PvPers even openly admit that they use said script. I think they don't really consider it cheating.

    I don't get upset about it, I just want to point out that there may be more "cheaters" among us than you are aware of. And I am as careful with downplaying certain "oddities" in PvP, as I am with accusing somebody to use illegal tools.
     
  10. They Call Me Al

    They Call Me Al Seasoned Veteran
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    first things first..

    this quote is taken out of context.. she is asking why do people (not everyone) accuse other people (again not everyone) of cheating....... maybe you misunderstood, but she was not implying that every person out there accuses every other person of heinous activity.





    second



    i did not see this "insult" in her post, so therefore its really irrelevant, we were talking about cheating, not insults...

    your take on idocing is very flawed as well... you are saying that we should help people learn how to take the items we are trying to take? we should allow them to sit in with us and partake in our plunders?? whats that have to do with cheating either???

    1. we dont idoc because we like spending 6+hours a week sitting watching pixel paint dry... we do it for the loot... the more loot we get, the more gold we make.. the more people doing an idoc, the less each person makes... simple supply and demand theory...

    2. every person playing this game has their own secrets that they only let a few people know. thats what the games economy is based off.. take the primeval lich drops for example.. when only a couple people knew about them, they were about 4x the price they are now... the more people found out about them, the cheaper they got... you are basically asking us to tell our secrets to make other people happy and less apt to call people cheaters?? what is that really going to accomplish? its not going to stop people from calling others cheaters because they were half a second too slow picking up that piece of rubble they wanted, or placing the keep they intended to sell as well.


    this is 100% true... all it boils down to is that there are a LARGE number of poor sports out there that are WAY too competitive, and that if they dont get that "flawless victory", they start with the accusations. the question is tho, how do we stop them??? best answer... segregate, seclude, ignore
     
  11. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    Actually, most PvPers don't use a pot chugging script at all. This is the type of rumor that gets spread around by people and I'm not even sure why. Anyone who actually does use a pot chugging script must be very inexperienced with UO PvP. Chuggers can mess up your timing for other things (the very things you mention here about "complex battle situations") Pot chuggers are no where as reliable and good as human instinct.

    Saying that "most Pvpers use said script" is spreading ignorance, and it is the very thing we should be trying to stop in our community.
     
  12. Giggles

    Giggles Forum Administrator
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    There are some valid points and arguments being made here. Now allow me to paint a senario that is a reality in our community just on a smaller scale within a few community's and groups. Again this is not directed to anyone specifically.. this is in a broader spectrum. This has been mentioned in a few ways already.. But just follow me on this little role play hehe.

    SO I will use myself in this example as to not offend anyone or ruffle any feathers. Lets PRETEND for a moment that I am a very well respected member of our community. Practically everyone knows me and most people like me a lot. I am known for my honesty, integrity, kindness, and wisdom, (remember we are pretending lol). I am so well known in fact that people who haven't had a 5 minute conversation with me would trust me enough to xfer their high end rares for them etc.

    So now lets pretend that one day I am out wandering the lands and I run into this person.. I don't know him, never met him.. and he is engaging in some sort of activity or accomplishing some sort of task in a way that I feel it would be impossible to be done without the use of scripts. Perhaps I take it a step further and try to talk to him and he ignores me. So I mull all this through my mind and consider myself to be wise in the ways of UO, I consider myself to be intelligent, and my spider senses are tingling! This person must be a scriptor!

    So perhaps a few days or weeks go by and I file this mystery person into the back of my mind labeling him as a cheater. So a bit later I find myself chatting with the community, and someone is like.. "Oh guess what? I recruited this new guy into my guild, he is really cool and we all like him a lot." Upon finding out this information I gasp when I hear the new members name!! Then being the honest caring person I am I feel the need to warn this helpless guild of this evil cheater they have recruited. I tell them of the horrors I witnessed him do and how I feel that he was cheating.

    After hearing this info the guild leader bans this mystery man, and warns all of his friends against him. Word spreads like wild fire and this man is now shunned by the community at large.

    This man is confused... wondering what happened, and hes wondering why everyone refers to him as a "cheater". So out of frustration this man either finds a new shard to live on or he quits the game. He was in fact never cheating, never claimed to cheat, and was simply just very good/fast/educated on the activity I caught him doing. He never answered me when I tried to talk to him simply because he was on the phone with his wife and couldn't type at that moment.

    Now in this little scenario.. Who was wrong? how could it have been handled differently?

    Like I said earlier.. I have personally seen this happen just on a smaller scale.. not completely shard wide, but this happens all the time in our small groups and cliques within our community. It IS a problem. So please humor me and explain your thoughts and ideas and opinions on who is wrong in this scenario.. and what we can do as a community to maybe lessen the damage this is causing people.
     
  13. Giggles

    Giggles Forum Administrator
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    Originally Posted by La Belle View Post
    However, referring to (idocing competitors?) as "some basement gnome(s) with nothing better to do then insult people" is either not going to reach these people if they don't read Stratics or else will just pile on more ill will and continue the downward spiral of insults and accusations. Just as their accusation that you may cheat is based on emotion not verifiable fact, so your imagining that they may be socially inadequate is based on emotion not verifiable fact. People accuse each other of various things to annoy. If you don't like it, don't do it.


    I saw this in Al's post, And my only comment is I was not referring to idoc competitors. In fact most of the "regulars" at idocs I adore and get along just peachy with. I was referring to the random people you see on a daily basis insulting random people by use of global chat or at the bank. Insulting their looks, personality, character, or otherwise. THAT type of person IS a basement gnome with nothing better to do then insult people, because that is ALL they do daily, and I could honestly care less if they read this or not. But now back to the real point of this thread..
     
  14. Giggles

    Giggles Forum Administrator
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    Come on guys lets discuss! Anyone?
     
  15. Nystul

    Nystul Lore Master
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    lol @ my post getting removed...

    nerd.
     
  16. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    Both were wrong.

    The player who was (most likely) macroing unattendedly was, for macroing unattendedly. It doesn't matter whether his dog was ill or he was on the toilet. If he leaves his keyboard, he IS unattended and should log out.

    The player killing him over and over was wrong. If he feels so bothered by an unattended macroer (I think there are worse cheaters in UO), he can kill him in Felucca or page a GM. But looking for his home again and again, killing again and again, that's just stupid behavior. Also, claiming in front of others that he was an unattended macroer is not right, because he cannot be 100% certain.
     
  17. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    lol... I'm sure if it was really that dramatically problematic the person would have moved their house to trammel. (Unless the person craved the attention or liked getting killed that much)
    Personally, I'd like a rune to every house with mining script chests on the steps in Fel. I would enjoy scouting them. I realize there is a class of people who consider this griefing. I personally dislike scripters. To me it's a form of "cheating" which this thread is about. Of course, other people consider this sort of cheating "acceptable" cheating. I wouldn't accuse anyone of cheating, but I would kill their miner. ;)

    Part of spreading false accusations about people cheating is all the melodrama that goes along with it. If you cut out all the melodramatic stories about this and that you cut out more than half the finger pointing.
     
  18. Black Sun

    Black Sun Grand Poobah
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    Your missing post must have been lost when they fixed the thing that was attacking stratics yesterday, I have only removed one post in this thread, and it wasn't yours. I'm not seeing it in the removed posts forum, so it wasn't someone else doing it either.
     
  19. Luvmylace

    Luvmylace Sage
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    The age old question again. The chicken or the egg. there are 3 schools of thought that don't need mulling over and over and over.It is just wasted energy. Negativity is not healthy nor does it aid the game.

    1. There are cheaters; there will always be cheaters .It simply is, what do you call cheating?. Macroing is a healthy aid to enjoying the game in some cases .Whether you choose to kill them for doing it unattended or report them is your call. But there is a third choice ,just go play your game and stop watching .

    2. There are no cheaters. Some people have the state of the art computers or multiples.This is not cheating. Some computers are in fact faster. Go get one.


    3 There is nothing one can do about them. The obvious answer is revenue.If infact the number of those using, tips the scale in favor of not losing that revenue ,then those programs will continue in this game until the day non users out weigh them and then it behooves the company to eliminate them .

    Now can we put this dead animal to rest?
     
  20. CatLord

    CatLord Guest

    Global chat should be moderated.
    Personal rooms should have the old moderating commands.


    ~/+defaultvoice Allows everyone entering the conference to post to the conference
    /+ignore [name] Allows you to ignore another user. Neither private nor public messages from that user will be displayed to you.
    /+ops [name] Gives moderator status to another user
    /+receive Allows you to receive private messages from other users
    /+showname Allows other users to see the name of your current character by using Whois. This is the default status
    /+voice [name] Gives a user the ability to post messages in the conference
    /ban [name] Removes a user from the conference
    /defaultvoice Adds defaultvoice if it is disabled, removes it if it is enabled.
    /-defaultvoice Makes it so that no one entering the conference can post to the conference
    /emote text Displays a message as an *Emote*
    /ignore [name] Begins ignoring a person not previously ignored, or ends ignoring a person you had been ignoring
    /-ignore [name] Removes a person from your ignore list so you can see his messages

    /join confname or /join confname password Removes you from your current conference and takes you to the conference indicated
    /kick [name] The kicked user can re-enter, unless the password is changed
    /msg [name] text Sends a private message to another use that only that user can see
    /ops [name] Grants moderator status to a user who doesn't have it, or removes it from a user who does
    /-ops [name] Removes moderator status from another user

    /pw password or /pw Changes the conference password as indicated
    /receive Enables private messages if currently disable, disable them if currently enabled
    /-receive Disables your ability to receive private messages from other users

    /showname Disables Showname if it is currently enabled, and vice versa
    /-showname Disables the ability for other users to see the name of your current character by using Whois
    /voice name Removes a user's ability to post if he has it, adds it if he doesn't.
    /-voice name Removes a user's ability to post messages to the conference.

    /who is [name] Displays the name of the character currently being played by that user. The user may disable this information
     
  21. Giggles

    Giggles Forum Administrator
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    Cool commands. However if the admin got passed to the wrong person, that could be a bit messy. Would be nicer if EA would hire one or two people to rotate chat moderation over all the shards and take care of any of the problem makers violating the roc right then and there.

    At the very least give the GM's chat access when they are "working" to keep an eye on it.
     
  22. Zosimus

    Zosimus Grand Inquisitor
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    The funny thing is that there are some cheaters that do admit in GC they use illegal apps. Now if GC was moderated by a GM then bam the idiot that is bragging about using cheats could be tracked and taken care of.
     
  23. CatLord

    CatLord Guest

    The commands are owned by who creates the room.

    The first room isnt moderated... it is an hallway...

    It worked like this for 8 years... and it worked well.
     
  24. outcry

    outcry Lore Master
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    First off You lie when you said you were going to use a hypothetical tale as you very well know for a 100% fact I have done just that in game...
    And how do we know because sorry someone can go afk to answer the phone, take care sick child but for over 4 hours?
    Also another fact which is true is player x after they are killed keeps casting recall over and over for long periods of time as a ghost.trust me I will always make sure before I accuse they are cheating... and to player x since we all know who it is we found you in tram as well as fel good luck hiding from us and keep moving because we will never stop........
     
  25. outcry

    outcry Lore Master
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    Well in this case we all know player X does not have only reds......... Read above post to see how I who player X is.....
     
  26. Zuckuss

    Zuckuss Order | Chaos
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    Now that is not true Devin. You accused me of cheating last month. For someone who likes to call people liars, you sure do like to tell some tall tales yourself.
     
  27. outcry

    outcry Lore Master
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    Once again I will call you out as a Liar as you well know that in the last month this same thing happen in game in general chat with Pitr..........
    We all know who Player X is and what I have stated in general chat about player X and how they cheat and how I gave Pitr rune to Player X house to prove it, but as Player X is of your own guild nothing was done to Player X but as I stated We will keep on player x and making player x move as it is more fun then to ban player X..
    Why you cannot just simply admit you lied is beyond me...I mean there was many people in vent to witness your supposed fiction story..........
    Why you do you always feel the need to lie? both of you have been caught many times now when you have falsely accused me here and in other forums as well........if you need a point of reference for what I mean we will just use the Calina House thing with Nuysul that is all the proof I need to make my point of calling you out here as a Liar
     
  28. outcry

    outcry Lore Master
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    I know exactly what you use from db4 days
    I did not lie... if you need more proof just ask cutter or spert I am sure they will back me...
     
  29. TTephi

    TTephi Guest


    You know who Belle's fictional player X is ?!
    And I do not believe that Belle said player X had only Reds , she said something along the lines of other chars that could be reds and need a Fel based home.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    First off You lie when you said you were going to use a hypothetical tale as you very well know for a 100% fact I have done just that in game...
    And how do we know because sorry someone can go afk to answer the phone, take care sick child but for over 4 hours?
    Also another fact which is true is player x after they are killed keeps casting recall over and over for long periods of time as a ghost.trust me I will always make sure before I accuse they are cheating... and to player x since we all know who it is we found you in tram as well as fel good luck hiding from us and keep moving because we will never stop........

    First off how can you be sure that someone is cheating if they are not officially suspended by UO GM's ? I don't know about you , but I trust their judgement, might you be claiming they are not doing their jobs?

    "we will never stop........"
    Secondly who is this we you speak of ?
     
  30. outcry

    outcry Lore Master
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    You know exactly who player X is...... to name the name would be an attack on that person
     
  31. Zuckuss

    Zuckuss Order | Chaos
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    Sure, ask em. You will say anything huh? I'd love to know exactly what I have used.
     
  32. Black Sun

    Black Sun Grand Poobah
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    There was potential in this thread, but it's quickly degrading into personal attacks and accusations. Because of that I'm closing it before it gets worse.
     
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