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Give White Wyrms the whirlwind attack

Discussion in 'UHall' started by GalenKnighthawke, Aug 27, 2010.

  1. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    For the 2 obvious reasons. Legacy pets need a post, and the amusing double abbreviation.

    -Galen's player
     
  2. Pfloyd

    Pfloyd Colorblind Collector
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    I'm all for it but i remember the days of mass curse and flagging criminal by the same WW i have now that would get whirlwind so it's a double edged sword hehe.
     
  3. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    I think they should also get Exorcism as an automatic ability, making them useful for PvP protection at champ spawns.

    Then, I could name my White Wyrm Stone Cold, and when the ghosts were expelled, they could be...

    No... no... I can't even bring myself to do it.

    Please ignore this post.
     
  4. Fine by me. Give my paladin 600 hp's and we'll call it even. :thumbup1:
     
  5. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    It's the TTHTP - "Typical Tamer Hater Troll Post". Go get yourself an orc brute, you'll have your 600 hp... ;)
     
  6. What's the problem? I agreed to the OP's request for new moves for legacy tames,but to keep things even and balanced,other templates should get a bonus too. Would you agree with that?
     
  7. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Imbuing was a huge boost to everything except pets. So you already got your "bonus". And don't make me list the drawbacks of pets again to explain to you why there is no balance issue. It also seems to me that you are a pvp'r. When was the last time you saw a white wyrm used successfully in pvp? Maybe eight years ago, if you were around then? ;)
     
  8. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    I don't really know off hand what a WW's melee is, but yeah, a PvP dragon whirlwind not a great idea. Be awesome for PvM, and no, it wouldn't hurt the owner unless it was in Fel and the drag went blue for some reason.

    Going on the exorcism idea, it would be cool if WWs could eat ghosts :eek:). But I think this idea needs to go back to the pound. I mean, shop.

    ??? you need more sleep lol. imbuing helped people get to caps that were already long standing. all it did was make it so people didnt have to get barbed kits or val hammers. the tamer equivalent is maybe the ability to use sleep/mass sleep instead of peacemaking, something SA also gave tamers in a roundabout way. healing stones and stone form aren't bad either. all those features make taming easier, which is what imbuing did for suits.
     
  9. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    It might be a fun idea, but it would be a pain to deal with in pvp due to the complications of flagging. It might have some specialized uses though, which would be fun. One thing for sure though, it certainly wouldn't turn ww's into pvp paragons...

    I'm not sure what you are saying in this paragraph, but imbuing improved suits and equipment across the board for everyone except for the very few that had godly suits before imbuing. For 99% of all players, including pvp'rs, imbuing improved suits and weapons dramatically.

    A pet is really just another piece of equipment with it's own specific abilities, none of which are worth anything without the care and control of a player. Imbuing improved almost every class of equipment in the game, with a few exceptions - pets are one of those exceptions.

    There is a reason why just about the only kind of tamer you see in pvp these days is a hybrid tamer that is primarily some other type of template, with taming added on. "Pure" tamers became much harder to play in pvp after the introduction of imbuing. This isn't a complaint, I'm just passing on what I see in game.

    Other players became much harder to kill if your primary damage output came from pets, and pets became much harder to keep alive because it became a lot easier for players to max out attributes such as sdi, and a lot easier for a pvp'r to create a killer suit that you could easily swap around slayer spell books and weapons on without sacrificing much in terms of your suit's attributes.

    Imbuing really constituted a pretty significant indirect nerf to pets in pvp. By "indirect nerf" I mean that pets themselves weren't weakened, but they became weaker because every other template and method of dealing and absorbing damage became significantly stronger.

    Not only that, but the mysticism spell set is extremely strong in both pvp and pvm. Previous spell sets and abilities tended to be stronger in one or the other. So again, mysticism has hurt the usefulness of pets in pvp by making it much harder to keep a pet alive and in the action. And now of course steps have been taken to make bards viable in pvp, which also has constituted an indirect nerf to pets in pvp, because bards are among the strongest pvm templates in the game.

    And while I believe that a tamer pvp'ing with pets is pvp'ing just as much as any other pvp'r with any other template, it is true that templates and tactics that are generally more pvm focused are more useful against a tamer than they would be against other pvp template types.
     
  10. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Hm, I guess I had to spell out "Mysticism." If a tamer needs a crutch, Mysticism improves everything from solo taming, to training, to stacking damage output. If you couldn't kill people in billion dollar suits before SA, then nothing except Mysticism has changed. Item caps are the same, so complaining about imbuing is silly. If you complain about imbuing, you're basically saying you don't want everyone, including yourself, to be at caps, and if that's the case, you're saying some people should be at a disadvantage in PvP. See how that's silly? You want an advantage by having other people be at a disadvantage.

    Mysticism, as well as Tasty Treats and its cousins, all came with SA, and all improve a tamer if they suddenly feel "nerfed." Besides, a WW doing whirlwind wouldn't even help DPS unless you are talking about group PvP w/ Hail Storm, because all whirlwind would do for the solo tamer is dissuade a group and probably get the owner guard whacked easier by the end of the night. But Whirlwind / Hail Storm would be interesting, except for the fact a PvPer could kill a WW in an EXP / FS combo, lol.

    P.S. I do agree pets need to be balanced. One day I'll post my full idea.
     
  11. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I cannot take full credit for this awesome idea, regrettably.

    I don't even have a tamer of my own, and must rely upon the tamer in my guild for taming services.

    While a PvM whirlwind attack for white wyrms or some other legacy pet doesn't strike me as being a bad idea, the post wasn't quite intended as a serious request or proposal either.

    I take it that it was not immediately obvious that the post was primarily intended for amusement?

    Get it? My white wyrm whirlwinds? WWWW? W4x?

    Still, something to consider.

    -Galen's player
     
  12. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Ok, again, I'm not sure where this is coming from. I'm not complaining about imbuing. I love imbuing. I was initially responding to the following:

    This is from a perennial tamer hater. She trolls every thread that has anything to do with taming, or any thread in which taming is even mentioned in passing. I've had this same discussion with her, and with others like her many times, but I keep responding to nonsense like this because I don't want the devs to think there's only one side to the story, or that everyone agrees with her and her cronies.

    She is basically trolling Galen's suggestion. First off she is implying that she interpreted his suggestion as a buff to white wyrms, which in my opinion it isn't necessarily. It might well be a fun change, but it would make using a white wyrm in certain situations more challenging, or it might flat out cause more problems than it is worth.

    Then she seems to be saying that since white wyrms have 600 hit points, her paladin should as well. Of course she is dead wrong about that as well. The white wyrm has a hit point range of 433 to 456, which is actually significantly lower than the orc brute, which anyone can use, including her paladin, and only takes one control slot.

    However, if you accept that this is a buff to white wyrms, a pet which could use something as it is rarely used these days because there are other pets that do just about everything better than they do, then I am simply saying that her suggestion that if a pet receives a buff, so should her paladin, is also based on a certain degree of misinformation.

    What I was saying specifically that every piece of equipment that a character can own, with a few exceptions, has radically been improved as a result of imbuing, except for those very fortunate few that had godly suits and equipment before imbuing came along.

    Pets are one of the few pieces of equipment that did not receive any kind of buff with the introduction of imbuing, and as a result, they are now weaker in comparison to other forms of equipment than they were. And if you remove the emotion and romance from the equation, all a pet is is a piece of equipment.

    So really pets were indirectly nerfed when imbuing was introduced. I'm not saying that imbuing shouldn't have been introduced, I love imbuing, all I'm saying is that her suggestion that if a pet receives a buff so should her paladin, is ill founded, as her paladin has already received a significant buff relative to any template with taming with the introduction of imbuing.

    Have I explained myself clearly enough now?

    edit: I should also add, as I already stated, it wasn't just the introduction of imbuing that resulted in an indirect nerf to pets in pvp, the combination of imbuing with mysticism actually has resulted in a significant nerf to pets in pvp, and specifically any of those that are vulnerable to slayers, for the reasons I presented further up the thread. And again, I'm not complaining about mysticism, or saying that it was a bad idea, I'm just stating the facts as I see them.

    Almost all of the pets with a vulnerability to slayers that can be found on spell books, or imbued on to weapons, are now pretty much useless in pvp. That leaves a very small number of pets which are worth even bothering trying to pvp with. Which is of course one of the main reasons why we see so many dread warhorses in pvp now.
     
  13. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I get it, I really do... :)

    I also think though that the thought that white wyrms specifically could use a buff is a good one, because I think they could. And it would be fun if the devs would get creative with something like this and give white wyrms something unique that might possibly make them useful in special situations. I wouldn't want anything that would make them overpowering, but something that would make them interesting would be fun.
     
  14. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Llewen, I understand your spat with the dexxer and why you started to talk about imbuing, but I don't think creatures are comparable to equipment in any regard. To me, a pet is a trainable follower. It's not meant to be equipment. Like I've said, all imbuing did was work with the same item caps as prior to SA. Whoever tried to link "pet imbuing" to imbuing might be to blame for this thought, but if pets were imbueable as it currently stands, the only difference would be you could perhaps take a Hiryu to a new cap of 108 wrestling, or the like, if it was below that after tamed.

    I think we'll just have to agree to disagree about defining pets. Should I be upset if I can't feed my EVs a Tasty Treat? Am I, as a mage, somehow nerfed now? And did I mention how Tasty Treats, in all their variations, buff pets? And how they came out with SA, along with imbuing :p?

    There have been several "nerfs," none a result of imbuing. The Greater Dragon firebreath nerf is the last major tamer nerf for tamers that I recall. And while any PvPer worth their salt already had nice PvM weapons prior to SA, especially slayer spellbooks, the damage change for slayers hurt tamers, I'm sure. And I could see Mysticism posited as a "nerf," because Hail Storm absolutely wrecks Greater Dragons. You and me both could also complain about dexxers being given the UO:2D macro Use Last Weapon ;P haha. But imbuing?
     
  15. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    You do have a good point there, and I should make more use of them than I do.

    As for imbuing. I don't know if you actually play a pvp tamer or not, but I did, both before and after imbuing was introduced, and I can assure you that it made a marked difference in how effective my pets are in pvp. I now have to rely a lot more on the magery half of my template when pvp'ing than I used to. Some would see that as a good thing, and I'm not complaining about it, because there is no doubt that I became a much stronger mage as a result of imbuing, I'm just stating the facts as I see them.
     
  16. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Most would agree with you, which is one of the reasons why there are so few truly skilled pvp tamers. There are lots of skilled dexxers, and skill archers, with taming, but very few truly skilled tamers. And part of that is because most pvp'rs, as in 99%+, don't understand the true nature of pets, including their strengths and limitations.

    All a pet does without a player to control it in pvp is die, and like any weapon in UO there is a degree of randomness in the effects it produces. A pet has to be directed and maintained like any other piece of equipment, or spell or ability. And actually, if that makes you happier, you can look on a pet as a kind of permanent spell, a spell that takes just as much skill as any other spell to use effectively. And as is the case with any weapon or spell, how effective it is is directly related to the skill of the user.

    I love role playing, and I give my pets real names. I attribute personalities to them, invent little stories about them, and have fun with them in that way. But when it comes to pure game mechanics I am a realist, and purely from the perspective of game mechanics, all a pet is is a piece of equipment, or a spell if you prefer. It is a piece of equipment with very unique abilities, but it is a piece of equipment nonetheless.
     
  17. Necro/Tom

    Necro/Tom Adventurer
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    Imbuing made helped every template out... Even tamers.. Now even tamers have imbued suits, imbued jewels, and have a unlimited amount of ways to customize your template. It almost makes tamers be able to use their pets specialites and use it for the best! FAIL Llewen!
     
  18. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Sure it helped tamers, but it didn't do anything for their primary piece of equipment, the pet. The same could be said for a mage's spell books, but there aren't as many variables involved when you are dealing with spell books. They are a much less complicated piece of kit. :)
     
  19. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    My White Wyrm named Stone Cold is just waiting to perform his WWE...

    But man, what were you thinking.

    Humor?

    Here?

    Shame, shame, shame.
     
  20. I would like to see this happen to WILD dragon all the way around. I think breath attacks should do area damage. i even made a post on this long ago and got shot down hard core. The issue of more pet power falls to the PvP more than anything else in my opinion.
     
  21. For that matter I posted about getting pets to arrange castings. LOL. That did not go over well. But think about this a dragon is smart. I should be able to say .
    "Hey Dragon! Here's the plan. You breath fire and I'll poison them. You paralyze while I Explode . Then you flame strike them. I think we will win." :)
    But again PvP is the issue with stacking spells.
     
  22. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    The issue isn't power, it is fun. I don't want one hit instant kill wonders, but anything that makes things more fun is a good thing in my opinion. So I don't think your idea of being able to control attacks and such is a bad thing, but it would have to be done right, and if you were going to do that then pets would have to start obeying all the spell casting rules.

    I would like to see real fire breath as well, instead of fireballs. It would be interesting to have fire breath be an aoe attack. The trade off would be that you would be able to run away from it. There wouldn't be these miraculous fireballs anymore that follow you for a country mile before they kill you.
     
  23. Fink

    Fink Guest

    I thought perhaps chivalry as a trainable skill on white wyrms, as an ideological counter to shadow wyrms' necromancy. Put some story back into mobs, like ophidians vs terathans or juka vs meer.
     
  24. I love this idea as well.:thumbup1:
     
  25. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    It's an interesting idea. But white wyrms are supposed to be evil. I would think this would go better with the serpentine dragons. But of course they can't be tamed. Maybe the cleansing of the white wyrms could be part of some story arc? :)
     
  26. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    *White Wyrm casts Cleanse By Fire on self*
    *melts*
     
  27. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    :lol:
     
  28. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Good point :p

    I know UO isn't DnD but I thought this page was interesting:
    SRD:White Dragon - D&D Wiki

    an Ancient White Dragon is actually less powerful than a White Wyrm in DnD lore

    anyway, what about giving white wyrms the ability to cast Hail Storm? give them i guess 100 mysticism / focus damage level ;P make sense since they are cold. hahaha then a mystic tamer would be too crazy though I guess :)
     
  29. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    I have an old 7xGM WW that i tamed back in the first few days they came out with the Second Age expansion, and it's pretty sad to see him just gather dust in the stables.

    Had an idea when i first saw Bane Dragons and Chicken Lizard Eggs about a new PvP Pet. The Fang Dragon. If you know D&D, you'd know what they are.
    The Fang Dragon would be obtained from incubating a Dragon Egg inside a Dragon nest for 1 RL month. The Dragon Egg could be a rare corpse loot on the Stygian Dragon, and the Dragon Nest could be a rare corpse loot on Rikktor. When spawned from the Egg, the Fang Dragon would be a red hostile, have 3x the stats than he would tamed, be immune to barding, and be capable of Chaos Breath. He would require 109.1 Taming in order to even attempt to tame him.

    When tamed, the Fang Dragon would have a max of 650 Health, up to 75-80% Physical Resist and 50-60% in the others, and have no access to magic. But, he'd be fast moving (Tokuno creature speed), have up to 130+ Wrest/Tactics when fully trained, be capable of performing Bleed Attacks, Mortal Strikes and Armor Ignores, have an innate 50% Reflect Physical Damage (Like Executioners), and whenever he is hit in melee, have a chance of applying a Bleed Attack or "Splintered Weapon" effect to his attacker (Like how Bane Dragons can apply Poison to their attackers). He'd deal double damage to "Draconic" creatures, like Savages do. His bite also has a chance of inflicting Curse. The Fang Dragon would only feed on player corpses. After slaying a player, he'd devour their corpse almost instantly, transforming it into bones, but leaving the loot intact.
    The Fang Dragon would be a more offensive pet than a Great Wyrm, designed towards PvP, but also alot more fragile.

    Here's some art of a Fang Dragon. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mof_gallery/MonFaePG42.jpg
     
  30. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    White wolves fall into that same category too you know.

    So what should we do for hell hounds and earth elementals?
    Attacks have a hit harms effect?
    Enhances earthquake spells that are cast by the summoner? Sort of like Arcane empowerment?



    I can think of some comical ones:

    Rune beetles (RB) can be recalled off like a rune book. Maybe to special secret locations.

    Trained giant beetles (GB) learns to talk and answer to commands in a decidely British accent (like what hired NPCs do).

    Fire beetles (FB) lets you burn your thoughts on to your "wall".

    Frost spiders (FS) casts flame strikes!

    Pack horses (pH) gains an acidic attack...

    Frenzied Ostards...erm...swears like a pirate while attacking...

    Polar Bears (PB) - if you get caught cheating you'd be mauled by a dozen teleporting ninja polar bears. Repeatedly.

    Swamp dragons (SD) becomes super deformed and gains big heads with short bodies/limbs

    Ogre Lords (OL) Wears makeup, a business skirt and a handbag (most people might need to search for what OL stands for...) :D